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MP Balancing is Sucking the Life out of this Game

cmdrnarraincmdrnarrain Junior MemberRegistered Users Posts: 50
MP Balancing is Sucking the Life out of this Game

You do realize that all of this mini-maxing is sucking all of the fun and life right out of the game. Everything is becoming so generic and frankly boring.

Who cares what mount so and so has access too. They are all optional, so don’t take it. Goblins loons were just fine before you MP knobs broke them. A RoR can do something multiple times, so what, there is only one of them in a 20 unit army.

CA is spending way too much time fixing this crap, instead of improving game play. Ever DLC is getting all of the fun units balanced into uselessness.

If you want finely tuned MP games, there are plenty of them out there. Warhammer is a story driven game with larger then life characters, not StarCraft.

Just stop for the love of god. There are so many better things that CA could be fixing with this game.
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Comments

  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 6,929
    edited May 15
    Just another very low skill player that has no frikking idea about game balance.

    Do u know who made sure arach striders working? mp
    Who corrected gobbo shaman encourage? mp
    Who fixed junkinark into luminark? mp
    Who fixed garbage dread saurian(albiet still a sad unit after)? mp
    do.. lets not waste time on the 4 years of insane improvements of the game literally solely by multiplayers, but ya lets not diminish carebears contribution albiet 1 per 99 ratios

    Then again, mp lions doesn't concern himself with the opinions of a campaign carebears.
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  • AWizard_LizardAWizard_Lizard Registered Users Posts: 1,178
    edited May 15
    Every sentence in this post is wrong.

    1) Spreading mounts left and right is the definition of min-maxing
    2) it also makes caharacters generic and boring (I'm using your words)
    3) CA is, for the most part, improving gameplay. Else this game would have died by now. Nobody wants to play with a full stack of gyros, as it was earlier.
    4) ''Warhammer is a tabletop wargame where two or more players would compete against each other with "armies" of 25 mm – 250 mm tall heroic miniatures. The rules of the game have been published in a series of books which describe how to move miniatures around the game surface and simulate combat in a "balanced and fair" manner. Games may be played on any appropriate surface, although the standard is a 6 ft by 4 ft tabletop decorated with model scenery in scale with the miniatures. Any individual miniature or group of similar miniatures in the game is called a "unit".''
    Wikipedia, look it up.
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  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 6,929
    Still he got some things right lol albiet should be directed at certain grp of toxic balancers.
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  • DerpmaidenDerpmaiden Registered Users Posts: 126
    edited May 15
    I believe the reason you think this way is due to various post asking to remove the phoenix mount from Teclis? I understand your concern, but please think of it this way. CA is not balancing the game purely to please the relatively small MP community, they are balancing the game to provide a better experience for all group of players.

    If a unit of a particular tier is too strong, then there's no incentive in SP or MP to include that unit in your army at a given point in the game (early, mid, end), and I doubt that the game will be sustainable to either crowds. This is why SFO mod is very popular in Warhammer 1, it's to fix all these balancing issues the game have back then -- of course the mod is popular now too but it's much less balanced compared to the base game in its current state.

    So what we, the MP community, is trying to do is not trying to "balance" the game in a sense just for the sake of competitive multiplayer battles. We participate in the balance discussion to better improve the experience of the game that we come to love over all these years and will continue doing so in the time to come. Some addition might be too strong and we simply want it tweaked, not completely removed, like the goblins loon you mentioned. Or some addition might be questionable to the lore like giving phoenix mount to Teclis and we would want to find a compromise by toning down the power-creep introduced with each DLC. I do hope that this post explain a bit as to what the community is trying to achieve with improving the balance of the game and shift your opinion on the importance of having a balanced game for both SP and MP.

  • AWizard_LizardAWizard_Lizard Registered Users Posts: 1,178

    I believe the reason you think this way is due to various post asking to remove the phoenix mount from Teclis? I understand your concern, but please think of it this way. CA is not balancing the game purely to please the relatively small MP community, they are balancing the game to provide a better experience for all group of players.

    If a unit of a particular tier is too strong, then there's no incentive in SP or MP to include that unit in your army at a given point in the game (early, mid, end), and I doubt that the game will be sustainable to either crowds. This is why SFO mod is very popular in Warhammer 1, it's to fix all these balancing issues the game have back then -- of course the mod is popular now but it's much less balanced compared to the base game in its current state.

    So what we, the MP community, is trying to do is not trying to "balance" the game in a sense just for the sake of competitive multiplayer battles. We participate in the balance discussion to better improve the experience of the game that we come to love over all these years and will continue doing so in the time to come. Some addition might be too strong and we simply want it tweaked, not completely removed, like the goblins loon you mentioned. Or some addition might be questionable to the lore like giving phoenix mount to Teclis and we would want to find a compromise by toning down the power-creep introduced with each DLC. I do hope that this post explain a bit as to the community is trying to achieve with improving the balance of the game and shift your opinion on the importance of having a balanced game for both SP and MP.

    Thanks for the post, explaining it with patience is an ability I kinda lack. And yes it escapes many players the big positive impact the balance section has on SP as well.
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  • Nitros14Nitros14 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,811
    I mostly play single player and also want the game and campaign balanced.

  • KurnothHunterKurnothHunter Registered Users Posts: 319
    edited May 15
    yst said:



    Do u know who made sure arach striders working? mp
    Who corrected gobbo shaman encourage? mp
    Who fixed junkinark into luminark? mp
    Who fixed garbage dread saurian(albiet still a sad unit after)? mp
    do.. lets not waste time on the 4 years of insane improvements of the game literally solely by multiplayers, but ya lets not diminish carebears contribution albiet 1 per 99 ratios




    if SP and MP were sold like 2 separate games, MP would have died long time ago

    CA is actually spending so much time on the feature of the game which is used by like 5% of people and gets so much sh#t for it most of the time (from me including, for which I apologize)

    so maybe CA should stop supporting useless minority of lions that just waste the food and don't appreciate it and start 100% support of carebears (at least they are fluffy and don't bite)

    this must be the first DLC to lead to such panic over the material that is not even out yet, not even hotfixed yet, total madness
    Post edited by BillyRuffian on
  • Theo91Theo91 Registered Users Posts: 1,659
    I do somewhat agree with the sentiment of this thread. Balancing units and factions inevitably sucks asymmetry out of the game. Not being able to have epic chariots because the Dawi wouldn't be able to deal with them in MP for example, or the GS not having flying units because MP reasons... it can sometimes be quite frustrating

    Ps i would say the OP could put his point across in a less confrontational way
  • AWizard_LizardAWizard_Lizard Registered Users Posts: 1,178
    Theo91 said:

    I do somewhat agree with the sentiment of this thread. Balancing units and factions inevitably sucks asymmetry out of the game. Not being able to have epic chariots because the Dawi wouldn't be able to deal with them in MP for example, or the GS not having flying units because MP reasons... it can sometimes be quite frustrating

    Ps i would say the OP could put his point across in a less confrontational way

    I disagree. GS don't have flying units, not because of MP, but because as a CA staff member said, they don't want everyone have everything. When everyone has everything you end up like WOW and scrable to release ''Classic'' again to stop the dwindling playerbase. As for chariots, please explain what entails ''epic chariots'' so I can hopefully respond.
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  • cmdrnarraincmdrnarrain Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 50
    Addressing some points,

    Most of the things you are talking about are bugs, kudos for identifying them and fixing them. The Luminark was awesome before the balancers turned it into junkinark. Now it isn’t worth taking in either MP or SP, congrats, job well done.

    The vast majority of players are carebears, but being in third place qualifies you for what exactly, an opinion, just like everybody else?

    How many lords have phoenix mounts? The balancers have complained that every lord needs a mount. In SP it is just cool. I think you have it backwards. I played table top, it wasn’t balanced even remotely to the degree that you all want it.

    Actually CA is balancing the game to please the MP community, that is the point of the post. Come on, the campaign game needed a trash HE sword unit or three types of pump wagons? Really?

    Competitive play could balance units solely by their cost. That is how 90% of games do it, which would leave the cool untouched for gameplay. It would also require much less resources on the part of CA.
  • innerpinnerp Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 569

    Competitive play could balance units solely by their cost. That is how 90% of games do it, which would leave the cool untouched for gameplay. It would also require much less resources on the part of CA.

    i'll never understand why this doesnt become the main balancing factor. everybody picks allarielle blob? make her star and eagle cost more.
  • Gilgamesh1Gilgamesh1 Registered Users Posts: 657
    Saying : 'it's a fantasy game so everything Is fine' Is a Dangerous statement. Then you'll have some factions with units that sucks and other that have OP unit, and guys that (rightly so) enjoy to win a MP game, Will Always pick those factions and those units, completely forgetting the weaker one, which Is sad.

    So yeah, balance Is frikking important

  • PokemonsdudePokemonsdude Registered Users Posts: 82
    This has to be the most scrubby thing Ive ever read on any **** video game forum.
    What the **** is MP sucking out of the game? are you guys actually still mad that kroxs got -2 melee damage that one patch?
    Ive never seen a community so hostile to balancing its so pathetic, sorry if people try to balance the **** game to make it an actual challenge instead of mindlessly clicking forward with your braindead monsterspam army. Do you know how many mods there are out there to make your **** view of what this game should be a reality?

    I really hope CA understand that multiplayer isn't the minority here.
    Its your kind of toxic player that thinks such minor tweaks that barely affects your game aren't legitimate even though it greatly improves ours. Its your kind of **** players that thinks he loses because one unit got a -1MA nerf and not because of his shallow, lazy micro-management inbattle. Your kind of entitled crybaby that goes on a forum to tell people on a forum to **** off on the same game as yours, takes the times to write this BS.
    Also how stupid do you have to be to think CA actually takes a lot of time in balancing? Every patch always introduce something broken and multi still barely have any interesting mechanics, let alone actual varied gamemodes
  • cmdrnarraincmdrnarrain Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 50
    It is good to get the blood pumping before the weekend. Unfortunately, there is nothing more confrontational than the truth for most people.
  • innerpinnerp Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 569


    I really hope CA understand that multiplayer isn't the minority here.

    it objectively, measurably and factually is though
  • BjornNorlinderBjornNorlinder Registered Users Posts: 178
  • ZeblaskyZeblasky Registered Users Posts: 497
    You know, it's a weird phenomenon that TW Warhammer 2 is still percieved as mostly SP game with MP as something tackled on. It is not true of course, that 5% meme should have died a long time ago. SP has much more players, sure, most of those playing the game for a few hours and then sometimes coming back when the DLc drops to play with it for a few hours more. But MP has much more active, dedicated and long time playing players. I personally have more than 2000 hours in TW 2 alone(on 2 accounts) and barely 100 of those were spent in singleplayer. It's fine, but gets boring real fast due to a repetitive nature, small metagame and very easy to abuse AI.

    MP is a rough diamond and it's so close to becoming a great gem that can outshine SP in this game with just a few new features. The best part of this game are battles, and the best battles are always in MP. If you want to go on a power fantasy roll, sure, SP is great for that, but for actual fun challenge MP is much better. And how much more attention the official tournaments get instead of the usual let's play streams is a direct proof.

    So that's my 2 cents on balance and why SP should not get most attention. And honestly, cries about how MP ruined SP are, well, kinda funny. Most guys in Balancing Discussion are trying to preserve uniquness of their respective races, while CA DLC team gives the coolest new things to everyone. Just think, do you really want High Elves with Old Waagh?
  • BluesCluesBluesClues Registered Users Posts: 37
    Whenever I see posts like these it reaffirms that people don't understand that mp balance changes have almost no effect on campaign balancing, where u can just spam 40 stacks of the most elite units. For the love of god, stop alienating a small part of the community that don't have anything to do with your preferred game mode.
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  • AWizard_LizardAWizard_Lizard Registered Users Posts: 1,178
    edited May 15
    innerp said:


    I really hope CA understand that multiplayer isn't the minority here.

    it objectively, measurably and factually is though
    What is clearly the minority, is confrontational people who have no clue why balancing is important for both SP and MP.
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  • SarmatiansSarmatians Registered Users Posts: 3,745
    I am mostly surprised at this myth of MP ruining fun for SP.

    Most balance decision regarding MP are +/- 1/2/3 of something, which is basically not felt in campaign at all, due to techs and lord abilities.

    This myth needs to die.

  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 23,890
    Yeah, this whole post is nonsense. MP is what keeps a game alive between content drops when all the casuals have run off to buy the next shiny thing on the market.

    Why do people think campaign completion rates are so low? If you count legendary players as the hardcore SP base...that's around 1% of WH2 players, so even less than the meme-y 5% that are currently thrown around by the scrubs.

  • innerpinnerp Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 569

    Whenever I see posts like these it reaffirms that people don't understand that mp balance changes have almost no effect on campaign balancing, where u can just spam 40 stacks of the most elite units. For the love of god, stop alienating a small part of the community that don't have anything to do with your preferred game mode.

    mp destroyed markus, depth guard, tomb scorpions, healing magic just as immediate examples. thats not to say that they didnt need adjusting, but markus and depth guard for example went so far the other way that now they are pure trash.

    and the age old "you can just spam elite units to fix it" completely misses the point of SP players, some of us want to be able to use the lower tier units, but they are stuck in a position (white lions for example) where they cant be changed for fear of upsetting mp balance, so you get left with a trash unit you just immediately skip.

    some mp balancing has been for the good, the regen cap for example, and some of the smaller unit balancing isnt particularly noticeable, but you look at this forum alone and you already see posts wanting war lions turned into hounds and the rogue idol having its unique ability gutted and teclis nerfed into the ground, before the dlc has even released.

    im not against mp balancing at all, but the simple fact is that SP is the main audience of this game, and building the game around a small core of the players is going to upset the majority.
  • Slade_XSlade_X Registered Users Posts: 126
    Look how many kills Karl and my 19 hellfire missiles got though..... That was on hard as well!
  • BluesCluesBluesClues Registered Users Posts: 37
    Yeah, poor SP players, they can no longer blob up with their 40 stack and optimise their healing. "Who cares about MP, its just a small minority!" this always translate to "I am a selfish ****.". FYI, Markus isn't trash and has never been.
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  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 6,929
    Ya well my 19 cygor army still rocks legendary mode undefeated lol.
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  • SarmatiansSarmatians Registered Users Posts: 3,745
    innerp said:

    Whenever I see posts like these it reaffirms that people don't understand that mp balance changes have almost no effect on campaign balancing, where u can just spam 40 stacks of the most elite units. For the love of god, stop alienating a small part of the community that don't have anything to do with your preferred game mode.

    mp destroyed markus, depth guard, tomb scorpions, healing magic just as immediate examples. thats not to say that they didnt need adjusting, but markus and depth guard for example went so far the other way that now they are pure trash.

    and the age old "you can just spam elite units to fix it" completely misses the point of SP players, some of us want to be able to use the lower tier units, but they are stuck in a position (white lions for example) where they cant be changed for fear of upsetting mp balance, so you get left with a trash unit you just immediately skip.

    some mp balancing has been for the good, the regen cap for example, and some of the smaller unit balancing isnt particularly noticeable, but you look at this forum alone and you already see posts wanting war lions turned into hounds and the rogue idol having its unique ability gutted and teclis nerfed into the ground, before the dlc has even released.

    im not against mp balancing at all, but the simple fact is that SP is the main audience of this game, and building the game around a small core of the players is going to upset the majority.
    This is really weird, as Markus, Tomb Scorpions and healing magic are very, very often seen in MP.

    Depth Guard are indeed situational, but that is more of a problem of Coast roster in general.

    No one wants Teclis nerfed into ground. He has been very powerful lord choice since Warhammer 2 came out. He was just overshadowed by Allariele, but he was never weak. I'm really surprised that you consider removing Arcane Phoenix, a mount that Teclis never had access to in the last 3 years, doesn't exist in the lore or on TT -> nerfing Teclis into the ground.

    I don't mind it, personally. I just think he doesn't need it. Him not having it preserves variety. Alith is on foot, Teclis and Tyrion have horse mounts, Imrik has Dragon, Generic lords have generic dragons, Allariele has the eagle... There was no need to give it to him.
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 1,608



    MP isn't killing SP.
    SP is repetitive and boring because of what it is itself. After 100 turns, is basically GG once you got your death stack, just grind and grind a few more hundred of turns. Late game is all the same. Only early game is fun.


    I mean look at Legend of Total War. I respect the guy and his style of fun. If that is fun for him so be it .

    But no way do i find flying a flying unit dodging for five minutes against arrows or spamming 19 stegadon with life slann is fun. And he plays on legendary mode.
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 1,608
    CA_Duck said:

    So some thoughts.

    1. It is true that our balance changes are mainly aimed at correcting multiplayer issues and shifting a stagnant metagame. This is because multiplayer lives or dies depending on the balance. If something is poorly balanced, game diversity suffers and play patterns easily become repetitive if not outright frustrating. So balancing for multiplayer is the least we can do for the multiplayer community, and it doesn't seem to be affecting the campaign experience adversely.

    2. We want our units to feel fun and cool. If the balance changes we are making are sucking the fun out of the unit, then yes there's a problem with our balancing. But I would also argue that something being overpowered isn't sustainable fun. It's fun for a moment, then you're likely to get bored due to the lack of challenge and the repetitive play pattern. We're actively trying to find the fun in units that aren't being used and balancing towards that.

    3. Our approach is to balance towards asymmetry, not towards symmetry. We do want factions to be balanced in terms of win rates against each other, but we also want to get there with each faction feeling different. The key elements in this is that factions need distinct strengths and weakness, and there need to be gaps in the rosters. What factions don't have is often the most meaningful aspect of creating asymmetry. At the same time the easiest way to find a role for a unit is to fill a gap. So as the rosters grow, this makes maintaining asymmetry and faction flavour increasingly difficult. The other reality is also that not all units can be equally useful, especially if you want to maintain asymmetry between factions.

    In the end, if our balancing is ruining the game, then please blame it on the designers who make the decisions, not the fans that give us feedback.

    No 3 is a quite big problem
    I really suggest big factions have some of their units move to subfactions. You then have a few more factions to play too. Arkhan's faction is amazing and unique. Some what same for sartosa.

    Make generic lords better(most of them are terrible) so the subfaction have more viable lord options too
  • cmdrnarraincmdrnarrain Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 50
    Addressing more points,

    I hate to break it to you, but units/races that suck would get fixed without MP community input. It happens all of the time, even for games without a MP option. The game is already full of units which never get played, the balancers will always keep them down too because as soon as tier 1 fights like a tier 2 unit for one race, out of the multitude, they will scream bloody murder.

    If you want finely tuned balance, play StarCraft.

    You need to read more video game forums. Toxic, I’m not the one swearing. Minor tweaks have no impact on MP, a couple of experts have said timing and speed are more important. Which is the point, CA shouldn’t waste time on this crap.

    I get it, you prefer MP, however, the title of the game is called “Total War” which has a campaign element to it. I’m sure there is a game out there called total MP battle. Find it, besides there are other CA titles which do MP much better. If you don’t think Warhammer isn’t a story driven game, then we will just have to disagree.

    Actually, I think you hit the head on the nail, CA isn’t balancing the spam 40 stacks mostly elite units because they are spending time on MP balancing. I only started posting on this issue when other games issue weren’t being addressed by CA. I believe I understand why, hence the post.

    Development time is development time. There is only so much of it. I want CA to refocus on gameplay.
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