Next FLC Idea: Tullaris and the Dark Elf Civi War Mechanic

TheWattman#7460

The Dark Elves are near enough to completion as of now in WH2. There is nothing further from them that warrants another DLC, as all that is missing is a Black Ark Fleetmaster Lord. Not enough. However, one final addition still remains, their 6th and final lord. The Lizardmen and High Elves both now have 6 Lords each, while the other game 2 base factions, Dark Elves and Skaven, have 5. The Skaven seem to be strongly hinted for the DLC coming some time later this year, meaning 6 for them too. That leaves the Dark Elves in the spot for a last 6th lord in form of an FLC.

In my mind, the most suitable candidate is Tullaris Dreadbringer, the Chosen of Khaine. There are other names on the table, like Rakarth, Shadowblade and Kouran Darkhand, but I don't feel like them will add much in their own right. Kouran is a loyalist to Malekith best served as a hero, Shadowblade likewise to Hellebron and Rakarth I'd say lost his chance to Malus. But with Tullaris, we have an oppertunity to build upon the DEF narrative and implement a new mechanic in the style of Imrik's story-driven campaign. An extension of the already existing loyalty mechanic, Im proposing that Tullaris comes with a new system that could reshape DEF rivalries and bring them to a head.

Civil War Mechanic Visualized:

A section out of Tullaris Dreadbringer's lore:

"Unlike Malekith, who claims to be Khaine's mortal avatar purely for the accompanying political advantage, Tullaris is the Lord of Murder's true herald. His dreams and waking hours alike are filled by violent whispers that urge him on to ever great acts of slaughter. Little by little, the Witch King has become aware of this unfortunate state of affairs, and knows that a reckoning between himself and the god-touched warrior will one day be necessary. Thus far, Malekith has stayed his hand only out of uncertainty over which of them most rely on Khaine's blessing. Meanwhile, Tullaris has made no attempt to challenge the pretender, simply because the Lord of Murder has not yet commanded him to do so."

What if that challenge was made real in WH2?

Tullaris will start in the Blood Hall in western Lustria and he leads a faction called "The Heralds of Khaine" or something like that. He should also start with all DEF factions discovered in order for this mechanic to work. Other than his own faction on the map, he also leads a faction in DEF society that wishes to overthrow Malekith in favour of the Chosen of Khaine. On the other side is Malekith, naturally. Now both sides have a main faction and also a loyalist faction that supports their respective sides no matter what happens. They are Malekith's mother Morathi and Hellebron for Tullaris, which makes only makes more sense in the rivalry of those two Hag Queens themselves. So the overall structure of the Civil War is already pre-determined, but its outcome still hangs in the balance.

Before the Civil War can be launched, the remaining DEF factions must choose a side, which is where most of this FLC will be concentrated around. This can be handled in a number of different ways. One way could be through regular diplomacy, where a specific number in positive, or negative, relations with Tullaris will cause the various factions to declare a side. For example, reach 200 relations with Lokhir Felhart and he will declare his support for you. If you instead reach -100 or so, he will declare for Malekith. Another way can be through missions for each DEF faction, missions that shouldn't be that easy to complete and they would also be timed once you've accepted them. As for Tullaris's own local campaign you'll likely be in control of western Lustria at this point, having conquered the Savage Orcs, Teclis, Nakai and prepared to move against Mazdamundi in order to reach Naggaroth.

And then the Civil War launches. The beginning stages will look rather similar each time, due to faction positioning. It will be the first task of each side to conquer the loyalist faction, as Tullaris will be closest to Morathi and Malekith is so close to Hellebron. For Tullaris this fight will be especially urgent, as Hellebron could be quite isolated and cornered depending on the alliance structures, so he will have to take out Morathi himself and do it quickly. After that it will all depend on the alliance structures of how long the fight will be. In a worst-case scenario, Tullaris will have to fight all of Naggaroth using only his own resources, if Hellebron is defeated before help can arrive. A fight worthy of the true Herald of Khaine indeed! The ultimate prize will be the control of all of Naggaroth and further, the fight to claim the Widowmaker, to then be used to bring the rest of the feeble world to its knees!

What do you think of this idea guys? Do you see it working in WH2 and would you be interested in it?

Labria#2848

I don't think Tullaris Dreadbringer is best guy for Civil War mechanic. I can imagine special mechanic about Khaine for him or he can simple start with Sword of Khaine.
Also, he should start on west Ulthuan in Tor Anroc or Shrine of Khaine. We already have legendary lord in Lustria for Dark Elves in both campaign.

Mallobaude is perfect guy for Civil War mechanic for Bretonnia.

Maedrethnir#1968

Imrik doesn't have story driven campaign, he participates in the Vortex race. That being I agree that mechanic like this is possible.

Personally I would go for 'Herald of Khaine' mechanic where Tullaris needs to murder enemies in order to fill the bar and gain rewards. Civil war can be tied to this, the more you progress the bigger the split in the DE society.

Ideally it should come with a small Widowmaker update:
1. Option to spread madness to captured enemies so that you can have Elves of all kinds in your armies.
2. The Icefang texture for the Sunfang.

TheWattman#7460

Labria said:

I don't think Tullaris Dreadbringer is best guy for Civil War mechanic. I can imagine special mechanic about Khaine for him or he can simple start with Sword of Khaine.
Also, he should start on west Ulthuan in Tor Anroc or Shrine of Khaine. We already have legendary lord in Lustria for Dark Elves in both campaign.

Mallobaude is perfect guy for Civil War mechanic for Bretonnia.

Well this mechanic can also work if he starts in Ulthuan, that's another viable start. I just thought that one would be more hostile in order to then launch expeditions to Naggaroth.

I also agree on Mallobaude

Maedrethnir said:

Imrik doesn't have story driven campaign, he participates in the Vortex race. That being I agree that mechanic like this is possible.

Personally I would go for 'Herald of Khaine' mechanic where Tullaris needs to murder enemies in order to fill the bar and gain rewards. Civil war can be tied to this, the more you progress the bigger the split in the DE society.

Ideally it should come with a small Widowmaker update:
1. Option to spread madness to captured enemies so that you can have Elves of all kinds in your armies.
2. The Icefang texture for the Sunfang.

By story I meant his focus on capturing the dragons, maybe poor choice of words. I can certainly see that Herald addition working in order to really simulate the urgency of the situation and tentions.

Captain_Rex#1635

I still think that Shadowblade with an army focus on Shades would be better as FLC.

But sure Tullaris would also be cool, even if he is not really unique.

SerPus#7395

That feels too far-stretched and unfocused on the character. The whole thing about Tullaris is that he's an executioner who hears the voice of the God of Murder and follows his commands. So let his campaign be just that. Although, that probably does sound a lot like Tz'arkan's quests.

Neodeinos#5871

ArneSo said:

I still think that Shadowblade with an army focus on Shades would be better as FLC.

But sure Tullaris would also be cool, even if he is not really unique.

We already have Morathi to focus on Shades.

Captain_Rex#1635

neodeinos said:

ArneSo said:

I still think that Shadowblade with an army focus on Shades would be better as FLC.

But sure Tullaris would also be cool, even if he is not really unique.

We already have Morathi to focus on Shades.

I mean a sneaky stalk DE faction like Alith Anar

gelatinous_cube

This sounds like an interesting idea, but a potential concern is that a dark elf civil war happening every campaign will further weaken their chances against the high elves. Currently, the high elves seem to be winning that fight so some way of strengthening the dark elf position would be needed. Perhaps Dreadbringer starting on Ulthuan would help with this (Lustria is already very full).

Neodeinos#5871

ArneSo said:

neodeinos said:

ArneSo said:

I still think that Shadowblade with an army focus on Shades would be better as FLC.

But sure Tullaris would also be cool, even if he is not really unique.

We already have Morathi to focus on Shades.

I mean a sneaky stalk DE faction like Alith Anar

I'd love Shadowblade but I don't think it's the one we'll get, Tullaris seems like the most likely for me.

SeanJeanquoi#3490

Dark Elves still have quite alot of potential left, its just their main source which is mostly done and dusted.

They've still got:

Fleetmaster
Disciple of Khaine (Healer)
Executioner Hero
Lords of Oblivion (drake riders)
The Endless (Malekith's Secret Police)
Salt Harpies
Sea Dragon's
Statues of Khaine
Slave units
The Cult of Atharti in general
Night Maidens of Atharti
Black Ark Reavers
Manflayers
The Voiceless Ones
Huntresses of Raema
Dark Pegasus Knights
The Daughters of Dispair

These are all potential things they could expand on and incorporate into a DLC of some kind.

I do like the Idea with Tullaris though. I think he should lead the Scourge of Khaine like in Mixus Lord Mods

TheWattman#7460

gelatinous_cube said:

This sounds like an interesting idea, but a potential concern is that a dark elf civil war happening every campaign will further weaken their chances against the high elves. Currently, the high elves seem to be winning that fight so some way of strengthening the dark elf position would be needed. Perhaps Dreadbringer starting on Ulthuan would help with this (Lustria is already very full).

SeanJeanquoi said:

I do like the Idea with Tullaris though. I think he should lead the Scourge of Khaine like in Mixus Lord Mods

That would also work. Campaign would be more like bulldoze Ulthuan and then challenge Malekith from there.

SeanJeanquoi#3490

I like that element of Tullaris's story, the fact that he's at odds with the Pretender Malekith. My main issue is as @gelatinous_cube says. The unfortunate truth about the Ordertide and the DE's stake in the Campaign makes the prospect of a DE civil war one that goes against what might be good for the game.

I'd propose a compromise: The premise of the Campaign is basically Malekith sent you on a suicide mission to Ulthuan to prove that you're the true avatar of Khaine (really he want's to get rid of you because your existence challenges his authority)

You could be working on behalf of Naggaroth in general, starting on Ulthuan as a Wulfhart type expedition.

Then as you complete your goals you get to manipulate politics back home. Perhaps you get to choose different patrons of your campaign, and then if you conquer Ulthuan you get to pull a Belisarius: do you choose to fulfil your oath to Malekith and hand it over to him, continuing your mutually beneficial relationship? do you declare independence and say 'screw naggaroth'? or do you declare open war against the witch king and try to take his place?

This way the balance of the campaign isn't affected unless Tullaris takes over Ulthuan.

Sir_Godspeed#8395

While there are practical concerns to consider, I just want to say that I really like the concept here.

TheWattman#7460

SeanJeanquoi said:

I like that element of Tullaris's story, the fact that he's at odds with the Pretender Malekith. My main issue is as @gelatinous_cube says. The unfortunate truth about the Ordertide and the DE's stake in the Campaign makes the prospect of a DE civil war one that goes against what might be good for the game.

I'd propose a compromise: The premise of the Campaign is basically Malekith sent you on a suicide mission to Ulthuan to prove that you're the true avatar of Khaine (really he want's to get rid of you because your existence challenges his authority)

You could be working on behalf of Naggaroth in general, starting on Ulthuan as a Wulfhart type expedition.

Then as you complete your goals you get to manipulate politics back home. Perhaps you get to choose different patrons of your campaign, and then if you conquer Ulthuan you get to pull a Belisarius: do you choose to fulfil your oath to Malekith and hand it over to him, continuing your mutually beneficial relationship? do you declare independence and say 'screw naggaroth'? or do you declare open war against the witch king and try to take his place?

This way the balance of the campaign isn't affected unless Tullaris takes over Ulthuan.

A very good compromise I'd say, I would be in favour of this.

TancredIIQuenelles#3970

what civil war
its not eot its wfb

afverrall#1754

Tullaris is subordinate to hellboron not her messiah in what world would the high priestess of khaine kneel to anyone but the witch king. And secondly the cult of khaine is closer to malkeith than morathi is he exiled her after all.

Having a popular character in a new area of the map is m7ch better than creating an arbitrary narrative around a very minor character.

Mr_Finley7#4571

Has anyone turned around on Malekith playing as Malus? Is that possible with his potion mechanic?

He always seemed like the best candidate to lead a civil war against the Witch King, crafty enough to possibly have a choice and fearless enough to go for it if he saw an opportunity.

DavidTWWH#4143

Some pretty cool ideas in this thread, I like it.

TheWattman#7460

Mr_Finley7 said:

Has anyone turned around on Malekith playing as Malus? Is that possible with his potion mechanic?

He always seemed like the best candidate to lead a civil war against the Witch King, crafty enough to possibly have a choice and fearless enough to go for it if he saw an opportunity.

Haven't played him myself, but the AI never does from what I can tell.

#23570

Cool ideas!:)
Tullaris would indeed be one of the more commanding characters (though he is about as tied to Hellebron as Kourand is to Malekith) compared to most others left, his Chosen of Khaine backstory could indeed bring some awesome stuff to the table.
Malus should be pivotal in this as well; remember that his story has him be part of the Scourge of Khaine prophesy and actually take part in a civil war within Har Ganeth (against his brother Uriel). Whether he truly is, it all was just a set-up by Tz'arkan or he became the Scourge through his actions doesn't matter.
I agree that introducing more destabilizing factors to the Druchii might not be best for the game; but their murderous conflicting nature is something Malekith has to deal with on a daily basis.
A 'Khaine Murderpoints' system ,like Vampire Coast Infamy for the competing factions might be a fun thing, with Malekith, Hellebron, Tullaris and Malus getting special treatment. The more favors to the Bloody Handed, and the more 'prophesy checkboxes' ticked, the closer you can get to performing the ritual (perhaps forcing to own Har Ganeth).>:3


I don't know why people keep bringing up Shades with Shadowblade, the shades have nothing to do with the Cult of Khaine.

#23570

Mr_Finley7 said:

Has anyone turned around on Malekith playing as Malus? Is that possible with his potion mechanic?

He always seemed like the best candidate to lead a civil war against the Witch King, crafty enough to possibly have a choice and fearless enough to go for it if he saw an opportunity.

While he has sworn fealty to the Witch King, it is indeed one of his long-term goals to supplant him and has had visions of him doing so. Him possibly being the Scourge would only be a useful tool in that scheme.
Don't know how much that got realized in the end, but please don't spoil the Deathblade novel.

And to elaborate: the Druchii have some strict rules of infighting. Civil war between city-states in not uncommon; war against the Witch King near-suicidal without the backing of the Temple of Khaine.
Hence I think the Civil War mechanic would be more fun to hinge upon the 'true chosen' kind of deal.

TheWattman#7460

Artfactial said:

Cool ideas!:)
Tullaris would indeed be one of the more commanding characters (though he is about as tied to Hellebron as Kourand is to Malekith) compared to most others left, his Chosen of Khaine backstory could indeed bring some awesome stuff to the table.
Malus should be pivotal in this as well; remember that his story has him be part of the Scourge of Khaine prophesy and actually take part in a civil war within Har Ganeth (against his brother Uriel). Whether he truly is, it all was just a set-up by Tz'arkan or he became the Scourge through his actions doesn't matter.
I agree that introducing more destabilizing factors to the Druchii might not be best for the game; but their murderous conflicting nature is something Malekith has to deal with on a daily basis.
A 'Khaine Murderpoints' system ,like Vampire Coast Infamy for the competing factions might be a fun thing, with Malekith, Hellebron, Tullaris and Malus getting special treatment. The more favors to the Bloody Handed, and the more 'prophesy checkboxes' ticked, the closer you can get to performing the ritual (perhaps forcing to own Har Ganeth).>:3


I don't know why people keep bringing up Shades with Shadowblade, the shades have nothing to do with the Cult of Khaine.

Well Malus can really go either way in this fight, if the sides depend on relations. I don't remember if he has an alliance with Naggarond in AI form, but if he cedes Hag Graef then Malekith might not place as a great an importance to swaying Malus, since he's on the other side of the world now. Thus Tullaris can get a foot in if he's quick about it. In my imagination, Lokhir and Malus will join Tullaris because they aren't in Naggaroth and thus under Malekith's influence, but most of the minor factions might go Malekith's way. Except maybe Kar Karond (if it survives Alith Anar) and the Deadwoods, who are positioned closer to Hellebron and/or Tullaris, depending on where he starts.

Tayvar

afverrall said:

Tullaris is subordinate to hellboron not her messiah in what world would the high priestess of khaine kneel to anyone but the witch king. And secondly the cult of khaine is closer to malkeith than morathi is he exiled her after all.

Having a popular character in a new area of the map is m7ch better than creating an arbitrary narrative around a very minor character.

Tullaris's true devotion is to Khaine, and Khaine alone, and he see Malekith as a Pretender.

Grayser#7104

The problem is a mechanic do not exist in a vacuum.

To clarify, most Destruction races would rather die and cease to be as opposed to join you in a confederation even with very good relations.

This means the Dark elf start that is already a murderous civil war will be even worse, Exiles, Alith, Norscans, minor DE and now major DE factions with the design to create more havoc?

Against the Ordertide that does nothing but ally and confederate you suggest worsening the situation by making DE do nothing but fight themselves.

So when the confederated HE show up with 8+ doom stacks on turn 100 4-6 Legendary lords you are stuck fightining a massive civil war where you might kill of your own best lords?

At some point the Dwarfs will come confederated fully, the Empire with 80 regions and so on.

Starting to see how this might be a bad idea?

I think the idea is cool but its beyond impractical to say the least.

#23570

Yeah..that does seem like a big fly in an already busy soup.:P
Discord and infighting is the reason often given for Skaven and Druchii not dominating all others when truly united.:)