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Mechanics that could use adjusting

2twoto2twoto Registered Users Posts: 81
While I know most discussions currently are about the DLC, I do want to draw attention to a few mechanics currently in the game that, despite being janky, unclear, or unbalanced, haven't gotten a lot amount of attention and could use some adjusting:

1) Crumbling/Disintegration: While not OP, the undead factions (TK and Vampirates specifically due to their ranged assets) are very strong compared to most other factions. A large part of this is due to this mechanic, as it prevents the unit from ever routing. Initially, this mechanic seems to be balanced out by its downsides: it deals damage overtime to the unit while they are "broken" and undead units generally have inferior stats to their living counterparts (especially in terms of leadership) except in health and numbers. However, in practice that doesn't end up being the case: being essentially unbreakable is generally worth taking a moderate amount of damage while broken (11 per second; for comparison, the mortis engine effect deal 12 per second), especially when said unit is protecting a ranged piece (or is the ranged piece still firing). At the same time though, this mechanic can sometimes be frustrating for the undead player, as units end up in a state where they perpetually crumbling and never rally even when they still have a third or more of their health and are out of combat.

A decent solution might be to increase Crumbling's damage significantly (i.e. 2x or more the current damage) while also increasing leadership on such units (by +5 or +10 LD). Basically, this will make it so that an undead units being broken will actually be detrimental, but such units will be harder to crumble initially and they will actually rally when not in combat.

2) Stealth and detection: This mechanic is in desperate need of clarity. Specifically, it would help significantly if there was the ability to see a unit's detection ranges (like there currently is with firing arcs), one indicating the detection range against stalk/hidden units and a second one doing the same against unspottable units. Just give the option to toggle it on and off like with most of the in-battle information.

3) Forest Stalker/Aquatics: While aquatics hasn't yet resulted in toxic builds (due to swampy land not blocking projectiles and only penalizing melee infantry significantly), Forest Stalker has with the tree blob. People have been asking for it to change for a few years at this point, so I'm just going to echo their sentiments: replace the MD buff with a small speed boost (i.e. 10 or 15%). That should help discourage camping in trees and instead allow for more tactical use of the trees to reposition/escape pursuit. Make the same change with aquatics for the sake of consistency (i.e. no MD boost for aquatic units, just a speed buff). Buff affected units as/if necessary.

4) Unit Formations: This came up a while ago and then seemingly got forgotten, but currently units with loose formation have a large number of benefits over those without it, even in melee/against charges ironically enough (in previous games/irl, being in loose formation when charged was very bad for the unit in question). Instead of the current system in which loose formation is just universally good but unit formations cannot change, it would be nice to have the option on most units toggle between loose and tight formations, while having drawbacks to each like in the previous games.

5) Vortexes: I brought this up a while ago, but making it so that the player can choose the initial facing/direction a vortex will move would help make them viable choices in multiplayer without breaking them (as the random movement still applies thereafter). Also, a little indicator of where the vortex will move first would be nice.

That's pretty much all the ones I've noticed. Any thought or other mechanics that should be included here?

Also, @CA please remember to buff Command the Unliving overcast (-3 WoM, +10 Seconds duration)

Comments

  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 6,556
    very good post I agree with everything you wrote.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,273
    Very well written
  • OrkLadsOrkLads Registered Users Posts: 1,875
    Agree with everything you said and to add to this, the trend of showing more specifics on the unit card should continue. For newer players being able to see how much each healing ability or item heals them specifically will be very useful and ease some of the learning curves that this game already has plenty of.

    Another big one would be to explain better what damaging abilities do somehow in regards to model count. Not sure how it could be done, but for example it needs to be made more clear that Spirit leech is good on units from 1-45 models while Fate of Bjuna really only gets value at 45+ models. You often see newer players Fate of Bjuna Demigryph knights or monstrous infantry and based on the damage description in the unit card it isn't hard to see why. Although communicating this without clutter could be tricky.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 4,882
    Fully agree on 1-4, 5 I am a little torn on. Just a small wom reduction would go a long way too and retain the warhammer feel of vortices. Not that I mind much, it would be fine with some aiming.
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Registered Users Posts: 3,982
    Nice write up, I don't have a problem with most.

    When it comes to forest stalker and aquatics:

    1) Aquatics is a much more powerful effect, because it is a much bigger stat swing. Small units suffer -20% MA and MD, while units with Aquatics get a +20% MA and MD bonus. That's a 40% stat swing if two such units fight each other.
    The only reason it is not abused is because there are honestly very few maps where you can abuse it.

    2) Forest Stalker - I would like to remove the camping aspect, but I'd like to compensate WE in other way. My idea was to give Wood Elf units a flat increase to Charge Bonus (let's say somewhere between 7-12) that is active while they are in the forest and for 10-15 seconds after they leave the forest. I think that would be thematic and would actually allow Wood Elves to use the forest for launching dangerous ambushes and it wouldn't penalize them for leaving the forest. It would encourage them to an extent.
  • The_real_FAUSTThe_real_FAUST Registered Users Posts: 838
    Good post!

    The loose vs close formation is a big one for me.

    It massively effects gameplay and the current weakness of infantry.

    Simply buffing the mass of close formations vs loose would have a huge positive effect on gameplay.

    That's before we go into the other advantages of loose..
  • Modern_ErasmusModern_Erasmus Registered Users Posts: 201
    You can already control the initial movement of a vortex. While the direction will change randomly after one second, the initial movement is always directly away from the caster in a straight line.
  • 2twoto2twoto Registered Users Posts: 81

    Nice write up, I don't have a problem with most.

    When it comes to forest stalker and aquatics:

    1) Aquatics is a much more powerful effect, because it is a much bigger stat swing. Small units suffer -20% MA and MD, while units with Aquatics get a +20% MA and MD bonus. That's a 40% stat swing if two such units fight each other.
    The only reason it is not abused is because there are honestly very few maps where you can abuse it.

    2) Forest Stalker - I would like to remove the camping aspect, but I'd like to compensate WE in other way. My idea was to give Wood Elf units a flat increase to Charge Bonus (let's say somewhere between 7-12) that is active while they are in the forest and for 10-15 seconds after they leave the forest. I think that would be thematic and would actually allow Wood Elves to use the forest for launching dangerous ambushes and it wouldn't penalize them for leaving the forest. It would encourage them to an extent.

    I actually didn't realize swampland lowered both MA and MD (I thought it just debuffed MA like forests do for large entities) and that aquatics boosted both. All the more reason to change aquatics from buffing statistics to simply ignoring the penalty and getting a speed boost I guess.

    As for your suggestion with Forest Stalker: I'm not in a great position to claim this (my multiplayer experience with WE was a few months trying to main them then realizing I didn't like playing them very much :/ ), but a small boost to speed while in forests (and possibly lingering for a few seconds after they leave) seems more useful than a small CB buff would be. Basically, a speed boost would be helpful regardless of play-style, whereas the CB would require a melee/ambush/death-star style build to really be taken advantage of.

    Regardless, I do think aquatics and forest stalker should provide the same bonuses for their terrain type, if for no other reason than consistency, so if you're advocating all forest-stalker units get CB then the same should apply for aquatics (as the descriptions for both are, essentially, "this unit does better in and ignores the penalties of x terrain).
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Registered Users Posts: 3,982
    edited May 19
    2twoto said:

    Nice write up, I don't have a problem with most.

    When it comes to forest stalker and aquatics:

    1) Aquatics is a much more powerful effect, because it is a much bigger stat swing. Small units suffer -20% MA and MD, while units with Aquatics get a +20% MA and MD bonus. That's a 40% stat swing if two such units fight each other.
    The only reason it is not abused is because there are honestly very few maps where you can abuse it.

    2) Forest Stalker - I would like to remove the camping aspect, but I'd like to compensate WE in other way. My idea was to give Wood Elf units a flat increase to Charge Bonus (let's say somewhere between 7-12) that is active while they are in the forest and for 10-15 seconds after they leave the forest. I think that would be thematic and would actually allow Wood Elves to use the forest for launching dangerous ambushes and it wouldn't penalize them for leaving the forest. It would encourage them to an extent.

    I actually didn't realize swampland lowered both MA and MD (I thought it just debuffed MA like forests do for large entities) and that aquatics boosted both. All the more reason to change aquatics from buffing statistics to simply ignoring the penalty and getting a speed boost I guess.

    As for your suggestion with Forest Stalker: I'm not in a great position to claim this (my multiplayer experience with WE was a few months trying to main them then realizing I didn't like playing them very much :/ ), but a small boost to speed while in forests (and possibly lingering for a few seconds after they leave) seems more useful than a small CB buff would be. Basically, a speed boost would be helpful regardless of play-style, whereas the CB would require a melee/ambush/death-star style build to really be taken advantage of.

    Regardless, I do think aquatics and forest stalker should provide the same bonuses for their terrain type, if for no other reason than consistency, so if you're advocating all forest-stalker units get CB then the same should apply for aquatics (as the descriptions for both are, essentially, "this unit does better in and ignores the penalties of x terrain).
    Well, both Beastmen and Wood Elves got a stealth speed boost in the Woodsman trait. They ignore trees effectively giving them more speed.

    Forest Stalker trait buffs MD, but that's only for Elven units. Trees and monsters don't get that, and from what I understand, it is bugged on Wild Riders so it doesn't work on them either. So, effectively, you get 15% bonus to MD on Eternal Guard, both types of Wardancers and Wildwood Rangers.

    Also, you do not choose Wood Elves. Wood Elves choose you! :)
    Post edited by Sarmatians on
  • rasco400rasco400 Registered Users Posts: 11

    You can already control the initial movement of a vortex. While the direction will change randomly after one second, the initial movement is always directly away from the caster in a straight line.

    it is not. I have had the vortex go in random directions away from the caster is the most common but it was may 3 out of every 10.
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