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Zombie Pirate Gunnery Mob (Bombers)

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  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,328
    edited May 2020
    yeah they should cost ~500 given the new explosion dynamics.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,328
    that said, this post is meaningless and i probably shouldn't be encouraging it. Obviously they don't beat chosen. You can make an actual argument for how strong they are.

  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,612
    edited May 2020
    How did you test this OP? I tested vs AI and my results differ from yours.

    Bombers do deserve a nerf but I couldn't reproduce what you did.
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • Noob_for_LifeNoob_for_Life Registered Users Posts: 469
    Green0 said:

    How did you test this OP? I tested vs AI and my results differ from yours.

    Bombers do deserve a nerf but I couldn't reproduce what you did.

    The bombers used all there ammo so im guessing there was a polearm holding those chosen off.
    i did a test like that and got similar results
  • GimblestumpGimblestump Registered Users Posts: 43




    I put a unit of Zombie Deckhands in guard mode in front of the Bombers. The deckhands took the charge while the Bombers tossed away.

    The Bombers didn't kill many models, but they sure did knock off a big ol' HP chunk. This combo is like 700 gold without any chevrons. You probably won't see many matchups with Swordmasters, Ironbreakers, or Chosen against the Coast, but the point is that the Bombers aren't just punching above their weight class. They're Doomguy punching the meat off their bones.
  • Noob_for_LifeNoob_for_Life Registered Users Posts: 469
    Think blasting charges for miners are also over-tuned like to see price increase for them to.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,328

    Think blasting charges for miners are also over-tuned like to see price increase for them to.

    Well they cost more than bombers and they certainly can’t do that to chosen ;)
  • Noob_for_LifeNoob_for_Life Registered Users Posts: 469
    eumaies said:

    yeah they should cost ~500

    Saying they cost more then bombers is kinda irrelevant. I just think there a lil more worth then 100 gold over reg miners plus 25 i think would be fair.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,328

    eumaies said:

    yeah they should cost ~500

    Saying they cost more then bombers is kinda irrelevant. I just think there a lil more worth then 100 gold over reg miners plus 25 i think would be fair.
    sure you could drop basic miners to 300 and that would be about right.

    I was under the impression that the races in this game have to fight each other, hence if dwarfs are grossly worse than zombies, perhaps we shouldn't make them worse.
  • Noob_for_LifeNoob_for_Life Registered Users Posts: 469
    edited May 2020
    yea after doing some testing i take it back Dawi have it rough enough anyways. Miners should not be skink price with 80 armor though
  • StupidIdiotStupidIdiot Registered Users Posts: 95
    edited May 2020
    I think there's a bigger problem with bombers than their damage numbers. It's how they deal their damage. They have three characteristics that combine to be very powerful -- loose formation, the ability to fire while in melee, and knockback explosions. Loose formation and the ability to fire in melee let this unit attack things that are engaged with it very easily meaning it can out-damage units that are supposed to be exploiting its melee combat weakness. The knockback explosions amplify this effect by spreading out the attacking unit, meaning that models get stuck in the back, unable to fight and easier to fire at while in melee.

    This can lead to upward trades where other missile units really couldn't. For example, I would expect bombers to wreck sisters of slaughter on the approach, but if the DE player successfully engaged properly from the flank or with screening, the sisters will still get hammered in melee because the bombers still get to fire. So what should be an ideal engagement for the sisters gets completely flipped on its head.

    I think the quick fix would be to reduce reload rate and make sure they fire in volleys. When they get their knockbacks to stunlock in continuous stream of DPS it's absurd what they can do.
  • The_real_FAUSTThe_real_FAUST Registered Users Posts: 1,349
    edited May 2020
    Bump up cost by 200 gold and leave them be.

    Other mechanical changes won't happen. And damage adjustments will just nerf the unit into uselessness again.

    They are particularly strong because they are so cheap. If they cost more there is less gold to spend on screening them and potentially more WOM spent trying to do so.

    Overall by raising their cost you put more decisions on the VP player, which currently they barely have to do.
    Post edited by The_real_FAUST on
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,612
    fundamental issue of Coast is that Unbreakable frontline + massive firepower is not a good recipe for balancing.

    These days you see Coast players invest as little as 1500g into a token frontline and the rest is guns, monsters that get heal capped and summons.

    It is really ridiculous gameplay and feels very oppressive to go against because you can often face up to 4000-6000g of guns shooting you down. Try to build that way as Empire or Wood Elves and invest that much into guns and you’ll see that that style fails because you need protection.

    Fundamentally something like 300g Zombie Deckhands hold way too long for the cost.
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • SarmatiannsSarmatianns Registered Users Posts: 4,593
    Coast currently has tools to deal with every approach, and at a rather efficient manner. Their units are cheap enough so that they can field an army that can make a response to multiple approaches in a cost effective manner.

    Bombers certainly need a price increase. Also, Haunters are no longer rare single entities, which is a very dubious decision.

    Coast has got quite a few buffs this patch, and not a single nerf, at least where it matters. They will probably be OP again.
  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Registered Users Posts: 1,420
    Isn't the bigger problem "guard mode"?

    without it, there is ways to shut them down. Right now, you just leave bombers in guard mode and they can easily wreck most inf units that engage them, even pretty elite ones and definitely light and fast units.

    Maybe another solution would be to give bombers way less ammo?
  • Noob_for_LifeNoob_for_Life Registered Users Posts: 469
    They already have only 5 ammo taking some away would be pretty much turn them into worse miners. I think just a straight cost increase is the way to go don’t change anything else.
  • mightygloinmightygloin Karaz-a-KarakRegistered Users Posts: 4,008
    edited May 2020

    Miners should not be skink price with 80 armor though

    I'm not sure if you know what you are talking about. Miners are one of the worst chaff in the game regarding combat capability. They are just roadblock and lose to cheaper Spearmen or Goblins. Is there anything more to add? They have been in need of a huge rework since forever.

    Blasting charges are totally another issue though.
  • Noob_for_LifeNoob_for_Life Registered Users Posts: 469
    edited May 2020

    Miners should not be skink price with 80 armor though

    I'm not sure if you know what you are talking about. Miners are one of the worst chaff in the game regarding combat capability. They are just roadblock and lose to cheaper Spearmen or Goblins. Is there anything more to add? They have been in need of a huge rework since forever.

    Blasting charges are totally another issue though.
    Lol i don't know what i'm talking about because i can correctly value stats?

    Miners have AP attacks, 80 armor, 68 LD, and vanguard i would say that justifies the price. Just because there not useful in the roster or bad at fighting some other chaff from other races doesn't mean they should be cheaper. I wouldn't be against a rework of there stats considering they suck but just making them cheaper isn't the way to go.

  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,328
    edited May 2020

    Miners should not be skink price with 80 armor though

    I'm not sure if you know what you are talking about. Miners are one of the worst chaff in the game regarding combat capability. They are just roadblock and lose to cheaper Spearmen or Goblins. Is there anything more to add? They have been in need of a huge rework since forever.

    Blasting charges are totally another issue though.
    Lol i don't know what i'm talking about because i can correctly value stats?

    Miners have AP attacks, 80 armor, 68 LD, and vanguard i would say that justifies the price. Just because there not useful in the roster or bad at fighting some other chaff from other races doesn't mean they should be cheaper. I wouldn't be against a rework of there stats considering they suck but just making them cheaper isn't the way to go.

    Basic miners wouldn’t see much use in any roster. Test them Vs any other chaff unit and you’ll see. Time their staying power Vs any elite unit and you’ll see they are worse for that too.

    They’re what dwarfs have and the vanguard is something but probably the worst roadblock and chaff in the game. Unless someone is kind enough to shoot them.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,328
    Although they did get +2MA in a recent patch which is nice. Gives them some utility Vs enemies with very low MD like cold one cavalry/feral.
  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Registered Users Posts: 1,420
    What about making miners a more niche unit that is very different from other units? So that they are not used as chaff in mass builds (you already have warriors for that) but instead are taken as a support unit.

    Right now without charges, they are just a terrible version of warriors with great weapons.

    I am not sure exactly what would work, but here are some ideas:

    Make them have less models, say 60. Give them less armour, say 50. They are not soldiers, they are workers. No reason for them to be heavily armoured.

    Give them a one time ability that let's them have stalk/unspottable so they can sneak up on stuff.

    Give them more speed (say 35) and strong vigour. They don't wear lots of armour and they are used to working in mines so should have good vigour and be pretty fast.

    They should have blasting charges by default but with 60 models, this should not be too oppresive.

    Give them also a slow on melee contact with enemy.

    Would this work or is this nonsense? Even if nonsense, I still think they should be made a support unit (something like warp-grinders?)



  • AWizard_LizardAWizard_Lizard Registered Users Posts: 1,552

    What about making miners a more niche unit that is very different from other units? So that they are not used as chaff in mass builds (you already have warriors for that) but instead are taken as a support unit.

    Right now without charges, they are just a terrible version of warriors with great weapons.

    I am not sure exactly what would work, but here are some ideas:

    Make them have less models, say 60. Give them less armour, say 50. They are not soldiers, they are workers. No reason for them to be heavily armoured.

    Give them a one time ability that let's them have stalk/unspottable so they can sneak up on stuff.

    Give them more speed (say 35) and strong vigour. They don't wear lots of armour and they are used to working in mines so should have good vigour and be pretty fast.

    They should have blasting charges by default but with 60 models, this should not be too oppresive.

    Give them also a slow on melee contact with enemy.

    Would this work or is this nonsense? Even if nonsense, I still think they should be made a support unit (something like warp-grinders?)



    I like the idea of being somewhat support oriented. Just to be ''technical'' in the lore they are militia with heavy armor just like warriors, they are not mere workers (IRL miners have quite the protective gear). Dwarf society is higly militarized. Anyway I don't mind to lower the armor although 50 is quite low I think. (In that regard as a personal preference I wouldn't mind if miners, dwarf warriors and ranged equivalents got a bit lower armor for a bit better stats). Anyway, I don't really fancy higher speed, but I like lower model count and the ability to stalk/ambush. Also instead of applying slow (of which the game has applenty) I woulddn't mind a lesser entrench ability like the engineer's. Oh and I think we should keep the two versions with and without blasting charges. Hopefully any rework will make the without version pickable.
    Prettiest of the foot overlords.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 10,515
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 2,482
    they are probably worth 600 really.
  • CirdanCirdan Registered Users Posts: 779
    Loupi_ said:

    they are probably worth 600 really.

    I actually though they were 600 already lol. 400 for bombers is probably the biggest bargain in the game.
  • The_real_FAUSTThe_real_FAUST Registered Users Posts: 1,349
    600 and they would still be picked. A lot.

    Very fair price for them

  • SarmatiannsSarmatianns Registered Users Posts: 4,593
    Yes, this unit is just pure value, you don't have to do pretty much anything.
  • AmonkhetAmonkhet Registered Users Posts: 4,304
    Changing any of the stats would just make it useless again. Gold increase if anything is required.
  • WitchbladeWitchblade Registered Users Posts: 954
    I'd also say this unit is worth at least 600 gold. They're decidedly better than miners with blasting charges, who are arguably already slightly overtuned.
  • SarmatiannsSarmatianns Registered Users Posts: 4,593
    Well, if just price is increased, than it would be +100 minimum
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