Bratt’s Boar Boyz

SonicSE

A long long time ago, way back in White Dwarf #106, Richard Halliwell published an excellent article about the Orcish Regiment of Renown, Bratt’s Boar Boyz. I always really enjoyed the “fluff” that he built around them and it would be brilliant to see them appear in Total War, especially given they are the genuine article. Maybe it would have helped to have mentioned this before CA pushed out ‘Paunch! Perhaps someday someone will mod them in...

Red_Dox

WD#107 means literally 2nd or 3rd edition. Way before they shaped up their world starting with 4th
I mean just take 3rd edition Grom
http://www.solegends.com/citrr/1rr03groms/index.htm
that's just outdated. Grom was reinvented in 4th and stayed more or less that way until 8th.

And even if Bratts Boarbpoyz would have been mentioned, what is the actual point here? We already have a Orc Boar rider RoR since game#1
https://totalwarwarhammer.gamepedia.com/Broken_Tusks_Mob_(Orc_Boar_Boy_Big_'Uns)
so as a RoR option, there is no use for them.
As a own faction somwehre on the map? Would their own, probably seriously outdated, background even make it plausible? And what would be the connection for Grim & Paunch then?
Not that we NEED some 3rd edition stuff to fill map spots.
https://i.imgur.com/lpBRorF.png

------Red Dox

DaothaGit

The only thing Boar Boyz need is a serious rework. High charge bonus and get rid of the 2 turn recruitment.

saweendra

boar boys are really good now god i hate them.

neodeinos

kasunrathnatunga said:

boar boys are really good now god i hate them.

Maybe in MP but not in campaign.

andrewbh2003

boar boyz just got a +10 armour buff and GOD that made em durable

boar boy big uns now beat any empire cav bar demis

saweendra

neodeinos said:

kasunrathnatunga said:

boar boys are really good now god i hate them.

Maybe in MP but not in campaign.

they are the bane of my exsitance in my imrik campagin by the way i think the greenskin ai is the best comabat ai on very hard battle difficulties.

And the ai use the damn scrap upgrades as well on the pigs. I can not land my dragons thanks to them.

But the savage orc varients are much stronger the savege orc big un can beat demis with helberd with waagh active.

mightygloin

Wurrzag's savage boar boys got like 50% physical resistance, near 100 charge bonus and 50 armor. They do work if you keep cycle charging.

SonicSE

Well, Red Dox, my young whipper snapper, I only ever played WFB 3rd ed. I never liked the 4th and then moved onto other things. Maybe the existing Regiments of Renown are official units from the recent editions, so it’s just my bad for being old and uninformed. They just don’t mean anything to me and I have some nostalgia for Bratt. The article was very entertaining so worth a dig into the back catalogues of classic GW. I’m quite happy for the moment to simply rename a lord Bratt and do my own thing.

neodeinos

kasunrathnatunga said:

neodeinos said:

kasunrathnatunga said:

boar boys are really good now god i hate them.

Maybe in MP but not in campaign.

they are the bane of my exsitance in my imrik campagin by the way i think the greenskin ai is the best comabat ai on very hard battle difficulties.

And the ai use the damn scrap upgrades as well on the pigs. I can not land my dragons thanks to them.

But the savage orc varients are much stronger the savege orc big un can beat demis with helberd with waagh active.

Yeah I don't know from what I tried boars were still meh.

saweendra

neodeinos said:

kasunrathnatunga said:

neodeinos said:

kasunrathnatunga said:

boar boys are really good now god i hate them.

Maybe in MP but not in campaign.

they are the bane of my exsitance in my imrik campagin by the way i think the greenskin ai is the best comabat ai on very hard battle difficulties.

And the ai use the damn scrap upgrades as well on the pigs. I can not land my dragons thanks to them.

But the savage orc varients are much stronger the savege orc big un can beat demis with helberd with waagh active.

Yeah I don't know from what I tried boars were still meh.

Scrap + plus something may be skills. And some waagh trophies.

Grimgor was wining every waagh until the fool decided to call on waaagh on me.

SeanJeanquoi

@Red_Dox

Stuff from 1st to 3rd edition is still cannon unless it was overwritten or officially ret-conned.

Some stuff is totally in line with current cannon. Some of it literally is current cannon, while some of it (like the Slann) is very different but still echoes todays lore.

1st to 3rd/4th Edition get a bad wrap but they haven't been disavowed by GW, CA has made reference to older editions more than once and the older editions are still the bedrock of modern WHFB. plus, when it comes to expanding the rosters of a given faction (Dogs of War especially) older editions serve a great many examples like this one, Knights of Origo, Bowmen of Orion, etc.

SeanJeanquoi

Especially if it was written by one of the 2 Ricks btw, stuff written by them is almost entirely adhered to. There's a Greenskin article from WD 88 which is still mentioned in the GS armybook all the way up to 8th edition.

SeanJeanquoi

Here's the article from WD #106, Sorry about the quality, it is a very old issue after all:

Remember you can press and hold "CTRL" on your keyboard and use the mouse scroll to zoom in if its hard to see. The Glossary part is still hard to see to I'll transcribe it here:

Glossary:

BeeAy = Particular kind of hairstyle favoured by many Boar Boyz

Charlie = Hostiles. see also jak, Skiney, stunty, etc.

Crackin' = More or less universal positive adjective, eg "crackin' good", "crackin' hot"

Crumpin' / Stompin' = Hand-to-hand combat

Hogg / Tusker / Grunta = War Boar

Jak / Jimbo / Joey = Human

Makin' Bakin' = see Crumpin'

OrCav = Orc War Boar Riders

Scratchinz = A wound or scar, particularly the regimental scar administered upon initiation.

Skinny / Skimbo / Slim / Stringy = Elf

Stiffy = Casualty

Stomper = War Boar, specifically a stallion

Stunty = Dwarf

Toke = A sip of Beer, roughly equivalent to a lite-and-a-half

Troff Time / Grubbup = Any mealtime

Warboyz = Boar Boyz

Well 'ard = A formidable warrior or opponent

Zog Off! = Go away

Zogged = Exhausted

SeanJeanquoi

They'd fit alot better with the Dogs of War I'd say. There's already 4 or so Greenskin units that are in the Dogs of War roster, from Hobgoblin Wolf riders, to Armoured crossbow orcs, no Boar Boyz though. This article even shows they have their own personal motto, which is something every Dog of War tends to have.

Bratt Satsensnapper and his Boar Boyz would be a good addition.

Bastilean

SonicSE said:

Well, Red Dox, my young whipper snapper, I only ever played WFB 3rd ed. I never liked the 4th and then moved onto other things. Maybe the existing Regiments of Renown are official units from the recent editions, so it’s just my bad for being old and uninformed. They just don’t mean anything to me and I have some nostalgia for Bratt. The article was very entertaining so worth a dig into the back catalogues of classic GW. I’m quite happy for the moment to simply rename a lord Bratt and do my own thing.

You can rename the RoR too if you want

Itharus

Must be other stuff or high difficulty at play...

Base boar boys are absolute crap if they are AI Normal or under Player control. They should be t2 not t3. The boar chariots too really... they're pretty suck, but most chariots are t3. Remember that if you have the AI battle difficulty above normal, the units your fighting are unusually strong. Regular strength boar buys should have no hope against a dragon.

Not going to lie I don't even MAKE the boar buildings anymore. Haven't in a LONG time. I eventually inherit one from some other GS faction I beat and every now and then I pull some out and try them for a minute before replacing them with Squig Hoppaz.

Savage Orc variants I make to include with Wurrzag.

Other than that... kind of a waste. Boars are just TOO slow. Old World cavalry in general is. Knights should all be 70 or mid 70s, not 66, and boars are only 60! Or make their charge distance longer and give them a speed boost ability on charge like some units have (including pump wagons).

Wolves are in a really bad way too. Spider Rider Archers took a hard nerf this patch. Like... they made spiders way more useful with Strider, and it's awesome... but then they nerfed spiders and took away ALL scaling for them... so they become useless. Even Arachnaroks are worse for wear -- yep -- they NERFED ARACHNAROKS.

Wolf Chariots still have a place - but you can replace them with pump wagons with no problems. Though I stubbornly prefer not to.

Squig Herds got replaced by Pump Wagons too mostly, although I still like to use them.

Really the only viable cavalry force GS have left are Squig Hoppaz. Even gd spider hatchlings make the wolves look useless.

Never before has a patch made me so cranky and happy at the same gd time.

Red_Dox

SeanJeanquoi said:

@Red_Dox

Stuff from 1st to 3rd edition is still cannon unless it was overwritten or officially ret-conned.

Some stuff is totally in line with current cannon. Some of it literally is current cannon, while some of it (like the Slann) is very different but still echoes todays lore.

1st to 3rd/4th Edition get a bad wrap but they haven't been disavowed by GW, CA has made reference to older editions more than once and the older editions are still the bedrock of modern WHFB. plus, when it comes to expanding the rosters of a given faction (Dogs of War especially) older editions serve a great many examples like this one, Knights of Origo, Bowmen of Orion, etc.

Most of that stuff is obsolete, and has totally be changed and rewritten. That what has survived is usually still around in 4th. 4th edition is what shaped the WHFB world to their latest form. The ties to 40k were severly cut, which means for example that units do not run around with plasma pistols and chainswords anymore. Empires got shaped differently (like greenskins stopped being raping menaces which resulted in a bundle of half-breeds) and the list goes on.

While I would agree that this RoR could have survived, since afaik there was no newer TT Boar Boy RoR for Dogs of War, they still had gotten no newer rule set. And despite having a possible role for TT, I already pointed out that for TWW we have a Boar Boy RoR already. There is no literal use to add a second one while tons of other stuff have no RoR card.
And also again: Map wise, these Bratts *could* be added as a NPC faction but what is the point here?
https://us.v-cdn.net/5022456/uploads/editor/wm/5l7vigat0pop.png
https://i.imgur.com/lpBRorF.png
First of all, on the current 8th edition map there is no existing tribe around Zhufbar. So the assumption these gits got purged in more recent editions is not that weird. Secondly, even if we want to add more greenskin tribes we surely have better spots to get fleshed out all over ME. And third point then: there is the Zhufbar ingame map situation itself

That was before the greenskin rework. Now

Skaven have taken hold there, since Clan Ferrik was supposed to hold Karak Varn in that area.

Which again is a reminder that heavily outdated stuff often just drops from the table and there might be no actual reason to pick it then up.

------Red Dox

SeanJeanquoi

@Red_Dox

I wonder when the last time you read old sources was, because for alot of it you just need to change a few words and names and that's about it.

The "old ones" are known as the "old slann" in 1st-3rd edition, which only requires a slight change in your reading for it to make sense with the modern lore.

I'm not sure about them severely cutting the ties to 40k, all they did was take out the Chaos units that had guns and chainswords but that was more for balance and aesthetic reasons. I think the 40k stuff was changed from being overt to being subtext. (Chaos is still relatively the same between the 2 worlds, the Amazons and Old Lizardmen lore is still hinted as being 40k inspired, etc).

The Dwarfs are pretty much the same, slayers and Gyro's and all. The Norscans are similar but a bit more savage and chaos aligned after 4th ed (a change for the worst IMO). The Lizardmen were totally different but the bedrock of their lore is the same.

and as I said a metric ton of stuff from the early days is still in modern lore, like Losteriksson, The Old Ones and the origins of the Lizardmen, the lay of the land, Dork, The Broken Nose tribe and their exploits, Grom as a character (among many others) and so on.

Bratt and his Boar Boyz would be right at home in the DoW roster, I already said that.

You say there would be no point in adding 2 RoR's for the same unit, and yet the Greenskins already have 2 RoR's for a single unit and Bratt and his Boyz could be Savage Orc Boar Boyz or Big 'Un Boar Boyz.

Crossil

SeanJeanquoi said:

Bratt and his Boar Boyz would be right at home in the DoW roster, I already said that.

I just wanna say, Regiment of Renown isn't the same as Dogs of War. Regiments of Renown are, well, renown regiments that have gained fame for their exploits. Just because all DoW forces were RoR doesn't mean that RoR are DoW by default.

Therefore, just because something used to be a Regiment of Renown, especially before the conception of Dogs of War, it shouldn't be defaulted to Dogs of War, unless it had mercenary tendencies in its lore.

So Knights of Origo, that you listed, aren't Dogs of War in any way.

SeanJeanquoi

@Crossil

Forces of Fantasy were DoW before DoW were a thing. Many of them were mercs and could be taken in multiple armies just like the DoW and many of the units from the Forces of Fantasy were later implemented into the DoW faction like Ulther's Dragon Company, Ruglud's Armoured Orcs, etc.

Crossil

SeanJeanquoi said:

@Crossil

Forces of Fantasy were DoW before DoW were a thing. Many of them were mercs and could be taken in multiple armies just like the DoW and many of the units from the Forces of Fantasy were later implemented into the DoW faction like Ulther's Dragon Company, Ruglud's Armoured Orcs, etc.

I would like you to show me where exactly was the Dragon Company implemented as DoW. First time I hear of that, aside from a fanmade source, that is the infamous 9th edition by that Matthias guy, which I'm gonna guess you yourself drawn a picture from in your DoW list aaaand, yeah, that page is from a fanmade source. In addition, nothing in their lore says they are mercs nor are they apparently connected to Tilea like most Dogs of War were.

But, overall, nah, I don't see it. The system of Forces of Fantasy relied on you using battalions from what are today considered separate factions so these weren't mercenaries as far as the rules were considered, if I'm reading it right, but were all mixed together under "good" and "evil" divisions. More specifically, of the ones you listed here, none were mercs in any real sense(Dragon Company, Knights of Origo or these Bratt's Boar Boyz). The fact that the old rules allowed for armies comprised of extremely varied battalions is precedent for a very different interpretation of the regiments rules compared to modern Warhammer Fantasy and as such, they aren't DoW but should go to their race unless they are expressly shown as mercenaries.

In addition, other companies were turned over to their respective races, like Bugman and Scarloc. That would be the opposite of what you propose. Therefore it doesn't default to DoW and it probably shouldn't. CA isn't really allowed to liberally change the lore so even in an unlikely scenario they implement these guys they would more or less stick to it as is and the way it is for the most part would imply they are to go to their original race.

SeanJeanquoi

@Crossil

funny thing about Matthias is that almost everything in those 9th ed books are legit, its just that he never cited any of his sources. I did look at his books for inspiration, But aside from the Stradiots and Organ Guns, I never used anything directly from there that I didn't find in an official source first (even in the case of the Stradiots and organ guns, the DoW do have light cav, "stradiots is just a continent name).

Anytime I do use an unofficial unit I tend to state as much and its usually just based on the history or an interesting idea based on the theme of the lore rather than being ripped directly from 9th ed.

I may have looked to the 9th ed books as a template for what is possible but that's only because I was doing exactly what they had done before me. I was going back through years of sources and attempting to find any and all potential sources. The ultimate list I've come up with for DoW (and Amazons) is either way more down to earth or actually more expansive than the 9th ed books, either because I found more source material or because I couldn't find a source (there's plenty from their Amazon books that I'd love to use but I simply cannot find a source for it).

Remember, I sourced all of my recent posts, including the DoW.

Ulther perhaps isn't a DoW himself but he leads a mercenary army of Kislevites, Dwarfs, Imperial Dwarfs and Imperial humans.

I'd like to bring up again that among the original Forces of Fantasy RoR's are Mengil Manhide, Ruglud's Armoured Orcs, Golgfag's Maneaters, etc.

Crossil

SeanJeanquoi said:

@Crossil

funny thing about Matthias is that almost everything in those 9th ed books are legit, its just that he never cited any of his sources. I did look at his books for inspiration, But aside from the Stradiots and Organ Guns, I never used anything directly from there that I didn't find in an official source first (even in the case of the Stradiots and organ guns, the DoW do have light cav, "stradiots is just a continent name).

Anytime I do use an unofficial unit I tend to state as much and its usually just based on the history or an interesting idea based on the theme of the lore rather than being ripped directly from 9th ed.

I may have looked to the 9th ed books as a template for what is possible but that's only because I was doing exactly what they had done before me. I was going back through years of sources and attempting to find any and all potential sources. The ultimate list I've come up with for DoW (and Amazons) is either way more down to earth or actually more expansive than the 9th ed books, either because I found more source material or because I couldn't find a source (there's plenty from their Amazon books that I'd love to use but I simply cannot find a source for it).

Remember, I sourced all of my recent posts, including the DoW.

Ulther perhaps isn't a DoW himself but he leads a mercenary army of Kislevites, Dwarfs, Imperial Dwarfs and Imperial humans.

I'd like to bring up again that among the original Forces of Fantasy RoR's are Mengil Manhide, Ruglud's Armoured Orcs, Golgfag's Maneaters, etc.

It doesn't matter. They aren't a source and I've seen enough to say that in a lot of cases they are fanmade and in other they use sources that are outdated if not entirely wrong. In addition, these books make additions that are of questionable validity, like adding Ulther to RoR list for DoW which has never happened nor it entirely makes sense. It's not the only one such questionable addition. They pretty much copy paste that material without any consideration of whether or not it makes sense.

So essentially you can't prove this. Ulther doesn't lead a mercenary army, by his lore. He is stated to fight in those races territories but not as a mercenary nor is he stated to hire mercenaries, so he doesn't lead a mercenary army. He only gets some volunteers which are allies, not mercenaries. His Dragon Company is a pure Dwarf army and his entire motivation is standard Dwarf quest to reclaim the lost holds. It's good to know that you admitted that at least your claim he is DoW is fake, progress I guess. Now taking into account what he is it is pretty clear he is a full on Dwarfs character, not a mercenary.

And I'll bring up that Scarloc went to WE, Bugman went to Dwarfs and Grom went to Greenskins(and Order of Cleansing Flame is basically those Knights). All of them, including the ones you listed, were updated to newer lore while these old regiments were dropped entirely and had their lore remain as is, un-updated. If the lore was implemented as is these aren't DoW by definition. In case of Ulther, however, he is pretty clearly a standard Dwarf Prince and as such would go to Dawi. Hell his only updated source IS a Dwarf book and he's listed alongside other normal Dwarfs characters like Throgrim.

In fact, Mengil and Golgfag were eventually returned to their races, Golgfag in 6th and again in 8th and Mengil to DE in 6th. Hell, I could say Bowmen of Oreon and Knights of Origo are also completely standard WE and Bret factions if we take into account what CA did with them.

And, still, Bratt's Boar Boyz aren't DoW and that hasn't changed either.

SeanJeanquoi

@Crossil

There's really no point in debating you on this because you act as such a gatekeeper for the lore and you either change the goal posts to suit your argument (by claiming X, y and z is now unofficial, not credible or outdated) or you stubbornly stick to your guns even long after CA adds stuff and moves on.

Ulther doesn't just fight in those territories, he recruits mercs, volunteers and such from said regions.

Bratts Boyz fit the template for DoW with their RoR status, their captain, their motto, etc. I also already stated to Dox how they could be a GS RoR as big 'uns or Savage Orcs.

The one thing you've said that actually bothers me (I've had a few people do this) is when you say X is fanmade and I tell you I sourced it all and you continue to say it's fanmade. I took the time to find and write down the source in my post. If you can't be bothered looking it up that's fine, I don't expect you to, but you can't just hand wave it away. The whole reason I went back and sourced it all is because I knew it was so important.

Sourcing is the biggest issue the WH community has, not just for TW but systemically since the beginning. The community is so bad with sources that there's loads of things that are legit that people mistook as fan made and vice versa.

Unfortunately I haven't listed every single instance of everything I talk about but I'm slowly working on that (Ulther appears in citadel minis, 1st ed RPG and I believe White Dwarf and Warhammer chronicle).

Crossil

SeanJeanquoi said:

@Crossil

There's really no point in debating you on this because you act as such a gatekeeper for the lore and you either change the goal posts to suit your argument (by claiming X, y and z is now unofficial, not credible or outdated) or you stubbornly stick to your guns even long after CA adds stuff and moves on.

Ulther doesn't just fight in those territories, he recruits mercs, volunteers and such from said regions.

No, I'm just saying that your proclamations about what these characters are is not accurate to what is actually written, as always, because you want to push your designs on what should happen which requires you to bend the truth. That's what I oppose and what you fervently continue to do. Like here, Ulther is never stated to use mercs and you lie about it to push your own agenda. First lie was that Ulther was adapted into DoW, which you backtracked on when actually questioned about it. CA adds stuff that doesn't always fit accurately, but so have you complained about every single DLC up until now. And why shouldn't we complain? If it's portrayed inaccurately it makes sense that we would ask for CA to do it justice. Some compromises can be made but frivolous rewriting like what you propose doesn't and shouldn't happen.

No, he doesn't. By the lore he accepts volunteers and that's more or less it. He has a specific goal in mind which is consistent with standard Dwarf behaviour that has nothing to do with mercenary disposition. If you can show me where it is written he uses mercenary army I will relent but the one updated source clearly says he accepts volunteers with special preference for Dwarfs. And you won't prove it because it's wrong and instead you'll grandstand as the moral person because you aren't "gating" fanmade depictions of lore. Because that's what you always do. It's incredible how little self awareness you have. No wonder you were blocked out of the wika.

SeanJeanquoi said:

Bratts Boyz fit the template for DoW with their RoR status, their captain, their motto, etc. I also already stated to Dox how they could be a GS RoR as big 'uns or Savage Orcs.

And they are still not mercenaries. They are still not mercenary RoR that can be fielded by the highest bidder. They are standard Greenskin regiment. I haven't opposed making a Greenskin RoR of them for this new edition, mind you, but making them DoW is senseless.

SeanJeanquoi said:

The one thing you've said that actually bothers me (I've had a few people do this) is when you say X is fanmade and I tell you I sourced it all and you continue to say it's fanmade. I took the time to find and write down the source in my post. If you can't be bothered looking it up that's fine, I don't expect you to, but you can't just hand wave it away. The whole reason I went back and sourced it all is because I knew it was so important.

I did look it up and it clearly paints a different picture from what you claim. Namely, it shows that these aren't mercenaries and shouldn't be treated as such for purposes of a DoW army list, unlike what you and Mathias say. They have their own races if they are even needed to begin with.

And that's not even going into whether or not CA can frivolously add such outdated material on its own. And even if it was it would probably be something banal like a standard faction like Bowmen of Oreon or Knights of Origo, which mostly serve to just add another race to the Vortex campaign.

SeanJeanquoi said:

Sourcing is the biggest issue the WH community has, not just for TW but systemically since the beginning. The community is so bad with sources that there's loads of things that are legit that people mistook as fan made and vice versa.

Unfortunately I haven't listed every single instance of everything I talk about but I'm slowly working on that (Ulther appears in citadel minis, 1st ed RPG and I believe White Dwarf and Warhammer chronicle).

Oh, great, so you apparently have a newer source from White Dwarf and Warhammer Chronicles? Citadel mini is from those old RoR times which don't represent DoW, right? So that one isn't that relevant, just like the rest of them. Let's hear it then. But I don't imagine it will give you that edge as Warhammer Chronicles themselves already contained Dogs of War and he was not featured as a character for Dogs of War. You know why? Because he isn't a mercenary!

But, sure, go ahead and show us these elusive articles. Suffice to say, I bet you that it clearly shows him as a standard Dwarf lord who at most added some DoW in his army, which itself isn't inconsistent with the rules since, as you know, every race could field Dogs of War regiments. You know, because these are mercenaries. What you need to show is that Ulther is a mercenary commander, either as a mercenary general or a mercenary captain that gives his regiment's services for money, which is what mercenaries are!

Otherwise, I can claim that Karl Franz should be in DoW because back in old Shadow of the Horned Rat and Dark Omen he hired Morgan Bernhardt as a mercenary. So, to make it clear, it isn't enough that he might pay some mercenaries, he needs to be a core mercenary commander or a mercenary himself to actually be DoW. But I already can imagine you can't.

As for your sourcing you only cite Dwarfs Stone and Steel, which is accurately, a Dwarf book. And he is a standard Dwarf character there.

But the best part, no no, you claim I'm talking **** when your own sources aren't even listed. You just come up and spout whatever you feel like saying that fits your own designs without sources. I checked what you offered and I said, Regiments of Renown aren't by default DoW, especially those from a time when RoR were simply renown regiments and races were free to mix as long as they were of the correct alignment. This isn't how DoW work and it isn't a basis for them to simply be shoved into DoW without any thought.

But, who knows, maybe I am getting ahead of myself here and you'll prove me dead wrong right here and right now. Go ahead, then. Show your sources.