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Berserkers have some very clearly defined weaknesses. You could as well argue witch elves are broken because they have an ability that can have a huge influence on the battlefield while also being quite strong anti-inf non-AP.
But berserkers are very vulnerable to ranged, take damage themselves from non-AP pretty fast, and are not too great vs armour.
Wardancers are simply a poor comparison point. On a roster with particularly oddball infantry and just about the weakest infantry in that class. Doesn't matter what you compare them with on paper they will look bad.
its quite the opposite, wardancers perform great in many 1 v 1, but they don't work in the roster they are in
Norsca on the other hand has great chaff clearers, has enough units to fight through middle-priced infantry, so I don't see why they need such unit as berserkers at that price
its same as to add similar to ushabti greatbows unit to WE roster, but make them 50 gold cheaper than ushabti
as OP thread starter said, wardancers in WE roster don't work, because it won't allow them to be utilized efficiently, in the Norscan roster on the other hand, berserkers work too good at the price they have
I doubt berserkers would work in WE roster, but I'm sure wardancers would be decent in Norscan roster
Berserkers have some very clearly defined weaknesses. You could as well argue witch elves are broken because they have an ability that can have a huge influence on the battlefield while also being quite strong anti-inf non-AP.
But berserkers are very vulnerable to ranged, take damage themselves from non-AP pretty fast, and are not too great vs armour.
Wardancers are simply a poor comparison point. On a roster with particularly oddball infantry and just about the weakest infantry in that class. Doesn't matter what you compare them with on paper they will look bad.
its quite the opposite, wardancers perform great in many 1 v 1, but they don't work in the roster they are in
Norsca on the other hand has great chaff clearers, has enough units to fight through middle-priced infantry, so I don't see why they need such unit as berserkers at that price
its same as to add similar to ushabti greatbows unit to WE roster, but make them 50 gold cheaper than ushabti
as OP thread starter said, wardancers in WE roster don't work, because it won't allow them to be utilized efficiently, in the Norscan roster on the other hand, berserkers work too good at the price they have
I doubt berserkers would work in WE roster, but I'm sure wardancers would be decent in Norscan roster
I don't see why Berserkers wouldn't work in WE roster. I'd trade them for Wardancers instantly.
When people say Berserkers are vulnerable due to 24MD and 15 armour, they seem to forget 7650 HP.
maybe, in theory, with healing they would perform better, because they have 102 hp per entity vs 68 for wardancers
so even with 20% phys resistance on wardancers, it still puts them under berserkers sustainability, but the margin is not that sagnificant, and personally, I don't want any significant nerfs to berserkers
Yeah it shouldn’t be a toggle. Anyway you don’t want the battle going long because of the rage mechanic.
But in battle I wouldn’t feed berserkers similar price infantry for factions that have a choice. Better to attrition the them with chaff.
you heard it here first folks.
Cure to Berserkes is 20 stack of Emp state troops.
Don’t try this at home results might differ from what you’ve seen on stream.
Lots of good players, including myself, understand the advantages of very wide builds with relatively cheap units. I've shown you the tests, can't do more than that. Attrition works vs low MD and low armour enemies.
As for focusing them with arrows, you will also have to deal with Mamouth so you might not have the luxury to target them.
Well berserks are vulnerable to cav charges. It is not like you need to use just arrows. Only units that berserks are good vs are low-mid armor infantry. Cause vs something like Grave guard, this mid tier armored infantry of DE, longbeards they are not good.
Interesting, I didn't know Ungor could trade effectively vs them when stacked head-on. You are right about them taking damage from anything, so it is probably due to the fact that Ungors have 120 models that the berserkers can't cut down fast enough since they lack splash attacks.
Ungors certainly don't have impressive stats on paper, but their low hp per model of 56 means that the Berserker weapon damage of 52 (+5) often probably leaves Ungor models with less than 10 hp after the armor calculation. That is a ton of wasted damage on the next attack. Stacking them probably means the damage is distributed more evenly between the two units so that neither of them routes early from damage.
If we compare that to say Empire state troops at 69 health per model we see that it still takes 2 swings from a berserker to kill a model but a lot less damage is wasted (and there are 30 fewer models to kill).
Definitely a very interesting result. The frenzy patch will probably make them eat Ungor alive when the extra weapon damage allows them to one shot models again.
Is frenzy not working in the beta? I thought the beta fixed all the WS issues?
Interesting, I didn't know Ungor could trade effectively vs them when stacked head-on. You are right about them taking damage from anything, so it is probably due to the fact that Ungors have 120 models that the berserkers can't cut down fast enough since they lack splash attacks.
Ungors certainly don't have impressive stats on paper, but their low hp per model of 56 means that the Berserker weapon damage of 52 (+5) often probably leaves Ungor models with less than 10 hp after the armor calculation. That is a ton of wasted damage on the next attack. Stacking them probably means the damage is distributed more evenly between the two units so that neither of them routes early from damage.
If we compare that to say Empire state troops at 69 health per model we see that it still takes 2 swings from a berserker to kill a model but a lot less damage is wasted (and there are 30 fewer models to kill).
Definitely a very interesting result. The frenzy patch will probably make them eat Ungor alive when the extra weapon damage allows them to one shot models again.
Is frenzy not working in the beta? I thought the beta fixed all the WS issues?
Interesting, I didn't know Ungor could trade effectively vs them when stacked head-on. You are right about them taking damage from anything, so it is probably due to the fact that Ungors have 120 models that the berserkers can't cut down fast enough since they lack splash attacks.
Ungors certainly don't have impressive stats on paper, but their low hp per model of 56 means that the Berserker weapon damage of 52 (+5) often probably leaves Ungor models with less than 10 hp after the armor calculation. That is a ton of wasted damage on the next attack. Stacking them probably means the damage is distributed more evenly between the two units so that neither of them routes early from damage.
If we compare that to say Empire state troops at 69 health per model we see that it still takes 2 swings from a berserker to kill a model but a lot less damage is wasted (and there are 30 fewer models to kill).
Definitely a very interesting result. The frenzy patch will probably make them eat Ungor alive when the extra weapon damage allows them to one shot models again.
Is frenzy not working in the beta? I thought the beta fixed all the WS issues?
As for focusing them with arrows, you will also have to deal with Mamouth so you might not have the luxury to target them.
Well berserks are vulnerable to cav charges. It is not like you need to use just arrows. Only units that berserks are good vs are low-mid armor infantry. Cause vs something like Grave guard, this mid tier armored infantry of DE, longbeards they are not good.
Norscan javelins throwers can deal with cav really quickly. The combo javelin and berzerk is something I fear with Bretonnia.
Knights Errant get slaughtered by Berserkers if you leave them longer than 2s in melee vs the Berserkers since they have some 45 MA and 50 ish WS which let's be honest if you are Bretonnia will happen more than you like since first of all you need the CB to work its way into the unit, so typical contact of a cav unit is like 5s and then disengage, secondly Brets typically play with 20 units so your micro might be less than ideal in some moments of the battle.
Berserkers are really good they just have to pick their fights basically anything that hits back harder than them avoid. But typically you don’t need many of them so it works out. Almost every good norsca player I’ve seen bring 1 or 2 but never more than that.
Lulz so cute how fast harkon changes his mind. Remember that extremely lame excuse that were used to defend the overtuned white lions, omg they actually dmg. White lions R DYINGGGG
Zerkers get charged. Nah dont matter. #elfprivilege
How bout these ppl actually documents and test it live for everyone to see how much dmg zerkers take from a charge vs say white lions. Or we could use silverins
Knights Errant get slaughtered by Berserkers if you leave them longer than 2s in melee vs the Berserkers
Well it is good then that you do not need to left them in melee vs Berserkers. Cause for what reason you would be in prolonged melee with 54 charge cav.
Almost every good norsca player I’ve seen bring 1 or 2 but never more than that.
Well you do not have much choice. Marauder champions are quite meh infantry, 9 AP 1000 gold infantry with mediocre stats are just joke. Marauder champions GW are trash, worst unit in whole game. Marauder spearman just bad. So you have only basic marauders or GW variant plus berserks as your infantry option.
I mean berserkers are strong but even then you don't end up seeing them too often. When you do it tends more to do with them having ITP baseline even without frenzy making them pretty close to unbreakable alongside that very high weapon strength. Personally, I think that they should be adjusted to have an unusually high bonus vs infantry (I'm talking like +15 Bvi) in exchange for losing like 17 weapon strength. They hit very hard against large which seems kind of weird for the unit from a design perspective but aside from that I guess there aren't exactly any massively outstanding issues.
Compared to other similar units they do sit at a pretty remarkable benchmark, and I personally rate their HP higher than forsaken armor since HP doesn't get affected by fatigue. Don't have a strong opinion on the matter personally. Would just rather they were more focused anti infantry than a general high dps vs everything type of unit.
Lulz so cute how fast harkon changes his mind. Remember that extremely lame excuse that were used to defend the overtuned white lions, omg they actually dmg. White lions R DYINGGGG
Zerkers get charged. Nah dont matter. #elfprivilege
How bout these ppl actually documents and test it live for everyone to see how much dmg zerkers take from a charge vs say white lions. Or we could use silverins
Dont tempt me with a good time.
I dont know about doing it live but i guess i can if you really want? Tested nearly every significant Cav and Monstrous infantry under 900 against WL and Zerks. TL;DR, Zerkers kill nearly any monster or Cav they get charged and sustainably engaged by below or at 900 cost. White lions do as well with one notable Exception(Trolls).
Knights errant lose to them both, not a shock on either side.
Empire Knights lose to both, thought the Zerks would struggle on the armour but not in this case. WL cleared them out more quickly than the Zerks.
Centigors lose to both, Zerks cleared them out much more quickly than the lions.
Savage Ork boar boyz lose to both. Close on the Lions but they do the job well enough. No contest for the Zerkers.
Cold One Riders lose to both. Super close on the lions, ran it a few times extra to be sure but the WL still take it. Zerkers didn't have a problem.
Black Knights lose to both. Thought they may have had a chance against Zerkers on account of their decent Armour and bonus vs Inf, but no dice. Lions had it easy in this one.
Rat Ogres lose to both. Thought they might have had a chance on the lions but no dice. Zerkers didn't struggle.
Trolls beat Lions but lose to Zerkers. Knew the Trolls had a chance but when the rat ogres failed to deliver i though they might have been a bust, not so, beat lions pretty handily. Beserkers didnt struggle much here.
Chaos spawn beat both of them. Thought they might have struggled against lions but not to be. Poison Alt (Beasty roster) was also tested, took it a bit longer in both cases but still won. Knights of realm(used as i got more and more desperate to find a Cav/monster unit the Lions beat and Zerkers didnt) lose to lions and tie with zerkers. By tie, i mean i ran the test 8 times, they won four times and lost the other 4.
Armoured trolls beat them both. Only tested them to be safe.
No idea how helpful this is as excepting the monsters it involves Cavalry not being used to its fullest potential. Lions often took less total damage on a charge due to their armour but they feel the missing health more due to the lower pool and MP.
If Zerkers get their rage high enough they can do some excellent damage to anything. Want to emphasise i dont really have a point to make here, but supplying some rough data. Not making any comment on its usefullness from a balancing standpoint in this particular post.
Also real quick for anyone who needs it Zerkers differ from Lions by way of; +2025Hp +5LD +4 speed +4 MA +18 WS (But no AP majority) +5 BvI Immunity to Psyc Frenzy Beserk -75 Armour -4 MD -50 g -Martial prowess
Lulz so cute how fast harkon changes his mind. Remember that extremely lame excuse that were used to defend the overtuned white lions, omg they actually dmg. White lions R DYINGGGG
Zerkers get charged. Nah dont matter. #elfprivilege
How bout these ppl actually documents and test it live for everyone to see how much dmg zerkers take from a charge vs say white lions. Or we could use silverins
Dont tempt me with a good time.
I dont know about doing it live but i guess i can if you really want? Tested nearly every significant Cav and Monstrous infantry under 900 against WL and Zerks. TL;DR, Zerkers kill nearly any monster or Cav they get charged and sustainably engaged by below or at 900 cost. White lions do as well with one notable Exception(Trolls).
Knights errant lose to them both, not a shock on either side.
Empire Knights lose to both, thought the Zerks would struggle on the armour but not in this case. WL cleared them out more quickly than the Zerks.
Centigors lose to both, Zerks cleared them out much more quickly than the lions.
Savage Ork boar boyz lose to both. Close on the Lions but they do the job well enough. No contest for the Zerkers.
Cold One Riders lose to both. Super close on the lions, ran it a few times extra to be sure but the WL still take it. Zerkers didn't have a problem.
Black Knights lose to both. Thought they may have had a chance against Zerkers on account of their decent Armour and bonus vs Inf, but no dice. Lions had it easy in this one.
Rat Ogres lose to both. Thought they might have had a chance on the lions but no dice. Zerkers didn't struggle.
Trolls beat Lions but lose to Zerkers. Knew the Trolls had a chance but when the rat ogres failed to deliver i though they might have been a bust, not so, beat lions pretty handily. Beserkers didnt struggle much here.
Chaos spawn beat both of them. Thought they might have struggled against lions but not to be. Poison Alt (Beasty roster) was also tested, took it a bit longer in both cases but still won. Knights of realm(used as i got more and more desperate to find a Cav/monster unit the Lions beat and Zerkers didnt) lose to lions and tie with zerkers. By tie, i mean i ran the test 8 times, they won four times and lost the other 4.
Armoured trolls beat them both. Only tested them to be safe.
No idea how helpful this is as excepting the monsters it involves Cavalry not being used to its fullest potential. Lions often took less total damage on a charge due to their armour but they feel the missing health more due to the lower pool and MP.
If Zerkers get their rage high enough they can do some excellent damage to anything. Want to emphasise i dont really have a point to make here, but supplying some rough data. Not making any comment on its usefullness from a balancing standpoint in this particular post.
Also real quick for anyone who needs it Zerkers differ from Lions by way of; +2025Hp +5LD +4 speed +4 MA +18 WS (But no AP majority) +5 BvI Immunity to Psyc Frenzy Beserk -75 Armour -4 MD -50 g -Martial prowess
Nice tests. That said he was talking about damage taken on a cycle charge which is the most typical scenario.
I think the theme with a berserker unit is that it will damage everything.
It also takes damage from everything.
Test it Vs chaff if you want a decent counter but can’t cycle charge them for some reason.
I mean berserkers are strong but even then you don't end up seeing them too often. When you do it tends more to do with them having ITP baseline even without frenzy making them pretty close to unbreakable alongside that very high weapon strength. Personally, I think that they should be adjusted to have an unusually high bonus vs infantry (I'm talking like +15 Bvi) in exchange for losing like 17 weapon strength. They hit very hard against large which seems kind of weird for the unit from a design perspective but aside from that I guess there aren't exactly any massively outstanding issues.
Compared to other similar units they do sit at a pretty remarkable benchmark, and I personally rate their HP higher than forsaken armor since HP doesn't get affected by fatigue. Don't have a strong opinion on the matter personally. Would just rather they were more focused anti infantry than a general high dps vs everything type of unit.
I prefer not. Most anti infantry inf become quite niche. I like berserkers as a general infantry and they already have a clear weakness against armor to give them an identity
Comments
Norsca on the other hand has great chaff clearers, has enough units to fight through middle-priced infantry, so I don't see why they need such unit as berserkers at that price
its same as to add similar to ushabti greatbows unit to WE roster, but make them 50 gold cheaper than ushabti
as OP thread starter said, wardancers in WE roster don't work, because it won't allow them to be utilized efficiently, in the Norscan roster on the other hand, berserkers work too good at the price they have
I doubt berserkers would work in WE roster, but I'm sure wardancers would be decent in Norscan roster
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1 · Disagree AgreeWhen people say Berserkers are vulnerable due to 24MD and 15 armour, they seem to forget 7650 HP.
- Report
2 · Disagree AgreeWhats so amazing about that hp lol, worse survival than a marauder. Both in melee and range
Top #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
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0 · Disagree Agreemaybe, in theory, with healing they would perform better, because they have 102 hp per entity vs 68 for wardancers
so even with 20% phys resistance on wardancers, it still puts them under berserkers sustainability, but the margin is not that sagnificant, and personally, I don't want any significant nerfs to berserkers
+25$ would be a start ah playing your silverin guard card again I see
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2 · Disagree AgreeAs for focusing them with arrows, you will also have to deal with Mamouth so you might not have the luxury to target them.
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2 · Disagree AgreeI also suggest taking heavens lore for windblast and louen
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0 · Disagree AgreeBut in battle I wouldn’t feed berserkers similar price infantry for factions that have a choice. Better to attrition the them with chaff.
- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
1 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeIts a fair game between norsca and bret though i think norsca has a slight edge but not too much
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0 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeZerkers get charged. Nah dont matter. #elfprivilege
How bout these ppl actually documents and test it live for everyone to see how much dmg zerkers take from a charge vs say white lions. Or we could use silverins
Top #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
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-1 · Disagree Agreedrop a few points off that
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0 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeSo you have only basic marauders or GW variant plus berserks as your infantry option.
- Report
2 · Disagree AgreeCompared to other similar units they do sit at a pretty remarkable benchmark, and I personally rate their HP higher than forsaken armor since HP doesn't get affected by fatigue. Don't have a strong opinion on the matter personally. Would just rather they were more focused anti infantry than a general high dps vs everything type of unit.
- Report
3 · Disagree AgreeI dont know about doing it live but i guess i can if you really want?
Tested nearly every significant Cav and Monstrous infantry under 900 against WL and Zerks.
TL;DR, Zerkers kill nearly any monster or Cav they get charged and sustainably engaged by below or at 900 cost. White lions do as well with one notable Exception(Trolls).
Knights errant lose to them both, not a shock on either side.
Empire Knights lose to both, thought the Zerks would struggle on the armour but not in this case. WL cleared them out more quickly than the Zerks.
Centigors lose to both, Zerks cleared them out much more quickly than the lions.
Savage Ork boar boyz lose to both. Close on the Lions but they do the job well enough. No contest for the Zerkers.
Cold One Riders lose to both. Super close on the lions, ran it a few times extra to be sure but the WL still take it. Zerkers didn't have a problem.
Black Knights lose to both. Thought they may have had a chance against Zerkers on account of their decent Armour and bonus vs Inf, but no dice. Lions had it easy in this one.
Rat Ogres lose to both. Thought they might have had a chance on the lions but no dice. Zerkers didn't struggle.
Trolls beat Lions but lose to Zerkers. Knew the Trolls had a chance but when the rat ogres failed to deliver i though they might have been a bust, not so, beat lions pretty handily. Beserkers didnt struggle much here.
Chaos spawn beat both of them. Thought they might have struggled against lions but not to be. Poison Alt (Beasty roster)
was also tested, took it a bit longer in both cases but still won.
Knights of realm(used as i got more and more desperate to find a Cav/monster unit the Lions beat and Zerkers didnt) lose to lions and tie with zerkers. By tie, i mean i ran the test 8 times, they won four times and lost the other 4.
Armoured trolls beat them both. Only tested them to be safe.
No idea how helpful this is as excepting the monsters it involves Cavalry not being used to its fullest potential. Lions often took less total damage on a charge due to their armour but they feel the missing health more due to the lower pool and MP.
If Zerkers get their rage high enough they can do some excellent damage to anything. Want to emphasise i dont really have a point to make here, but supplying some rough data. Not making any comment on its usefullness from a balancing standpoint in this particular post.
Also real quick for anyone who needs it Zerkers differ from Lions by way of;
+2025Hp
+5LD
+4 speed
+4 MA
+18 WS (But no AP majority)
+5 BvI
Immunity to Psyc
Frenzy
Beserk
-75 Armour
-4 MD
-50 g
-Martial prowess
- Report
2 · Disagree AgreeI think the theme with a berserker unit is that it will damage everything.
It also takes damage from everything.
Test it Vs chaff if you want a decent counter but can’t cycle charge them for some reason.
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0 · Disagree Agree- Report
2 · Disagree Agree