Next Dwarf Update - Runes and Engineers

TheWattman#7460

So something has had me thinking the past few days over the next Dwarf DLC, which for the record I think is going to be Thorek Ironbrow in command of Karak Azul in WH3. Some people may think he's the next one for WH2, but that's another discussion. What I'd like to discuss here and now is the specific content in terms of units - and especially lords - for that update. Thing is, I believe that the next Dwarf DLC will be a mix of remaining Runic and Engineer-themed units. The missing Slayer stuff will fall under Malakai's banner later on.

However, among the Runic/Engineer stuff we might hit a bit of a problem if we are to follow the semi-established LP-patterns of adding 1 new generic lord and hero alongside the LL, preferably in a theme with that LL. But the thing is, in a Runic/Engineer update alongside Thorek and possibly Grimm Burlokson (LH), we lack that option. We already have a Runelord, a Hero Runesmith and a Hero Master Engineer in the game at this point. And that is the setup for the Dwarfs in their armybooks. There is no established Lord alternative for the Engineers. Now, this may or may not be a problem, but it sure would be nice to see some sort of new leader variant based on the Engineers, especially if again Grimm makes it in as a LH alongside Thorek.

My answer is this: Enter Burlok Damminsson, Grimm's father. Specifically, his profession of Guildmaster of the Dwarf Engineers Guild. This is the closest I can find to something that rises above the Master Engineer in hierarchy, a generic Engineer lord, offering full diversity to Dwarf armies once the armybook-validated Dragon/Daemon Slayers follow Malakai later. Lord and heroes of all 4 variants: Regular, Runes, Slayers and Engineers. But then again, this would be a completely new and invented lord on CA's part, so Im not sure as to how possible it is. What do you think guys?

For the record, this would be the full roster added with this DLC:
LL - Thorek Ironbrow
LH - Grimm Burloksson (maybe)

Generic Lord: Engineer Guildmaster (maybe)

Runic-themed: Rune Guardians, Rune Golems, Shard Dragon, Shieldbreakers (maybe)

Engineer-themed: Thunderbarge, War Balloons (maybe), Dwarf Miner w Steam Drill

mightygloin#2446

I wonder what are the chances of getting all the runes with a system to implement them and proper Anvil of Dooms. This is like half of the faction's flavour there. Such untapped potential. The current placeholders and TK copy item shop will surely need to be scrubbed or at least improved upon.

Weapon runes

Armour runes

Banner runes

Talismanic runes

Engineering runes

Karak_Spoon#6103

mightygloin said:

I wonder what are the chances of getting all the runes with a system to implement them and proper Anvil of Dooms. This is like half of the faction's flavour there. Such untapped potential. The current placeholders and TK copy item shop will surely need to be scrubbed or at least improved upon.

Weapon runes

Armour runes

Banner runes

Talismanic runes

Engineering runes

@CA_Duck replied to one of my many Dwarfs discussions I made three years ago and said: "No, sorry. It is definitely one of the things I wish we had done better in Warhammer 1, but currently there are no plans to redesign the rune system"

I do hope this has changed since then

Link to old discussion:

https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/197491/the-lack-of-the-dwarfs-runes

Beelze

No to the Shard Dragons...

Not EVERY race in the game needs dragons...

Soon people will be asking for gunpowder and cannons for Bretonnia and WE.

PappyTron#8042

To be honest, I just want a mechanism (preferably Runic) that gives Dwarfs flavour as they are currently a one note faction to play due to having no magic, no cavalry, no monsters etc. The other issue that Dwarfs have is that everything is basically reactive: you wait for the enemy to get close and then you cast a rune to slow them or to buff your armour, and that's it. I really like Runelords and they can become super tanky, but they have three castable abilities and that's it. In the lore Runelords are incredibly powerful "spellcasters" and it's a shame that virtually none of that is reflected in the game.

Just looking at it, the Dwarfs have three abilities in the entire roster that are directly cast on the enemy:

1 - Thorgrim's debuff
2 - Rune of Wrath and Ruin
3 - Marked by Ulthar

Indefatigable#6116

I'm not a fan of the dwarf fraction (or faction).

I find them too boring to play as or against - the artillery/ranged turtling is just too dull. I don't think they are worthy of an update anytime soon.

PappyTron#8042

Indefatigable said:

I'm not a fan of the dwarf fraction (or faction).

I find them too boring to play as or against - the artillery/ranged turtling is just too dull. I don't think they are worthy of an update anytime soon.

Surely if you find them dull as they are you'd be in favour of them receiving an update to liven them up a bit with some new toys and mechanics?

Karak_Spoon#6103

PappyTron said:

To be honest, I just want a mechanism (preferably Runic) that gives Dwarfs flavour as they are currently a one note faction to play due to having no magic, no cavalry, no monsters etc. The other issue that Dwarfs have is that everything is basically reactive: you wait for the enemy to get close and then you cast a rune to slow them or to buff your armour, and that's it. I really like Runelords and they can become super tanky, but they have three castable abilities and that's it. In the lore Runelords are incredibly powerful "spellcasters" and it's a shame that virtually none of that is reflected in the game.

Just looking at it, the Dwarfs have three abilities in the entire roster that are directly cast on the enemy:

1 - Thorgrim's debuff
2 - Rune of Wrath and Ruin
3 - Marked by Ulthar

Also:



Check out his Warhammer artwork: https://www.instagram.com/baeinu2610/?hl=ko

4 - Sceptre of Stone from the Dwarfs Forge, which is th only aoe direct damage the Dwarfs get.

mightygloin#2446

erza321 said:

mightygloin said:

I wonder what are the chances of getting all the runes with a system to implement them and proper Anvil of Dooms. This is like half of the faction's flavour there. Such untapped potential. The current placeholders and TK copy item shop will surely need to be scrubbed or at least improved upon.

Weapon runes

Armour runes

Banner runes

Talismanic runes

Engineering runes

@CA_Duck replied to one of my many Dwarfs discussions I made three years ago and said: "No, sorry. It is definitely one of the things I wish we had done better in Warhammer 1, but currently there are no plans to redesign the rune system"

I do hope this has changed since then

Link to old discussion:

https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/197491/the-lack-of-the-dwarfs-runes

Honesty is good there. But they also said they have no plans on doing DLC for DLC factions. So the next content is going to likely change one of these. Either a DLC faction gonna get a DLC, or Dwarfs gonna get one with a rework.

PappyTron said:

Indefatigable said:

I'm not a fan of the dwarf fraction (or faction).

I find them too boring to play as or against - the artillery/ranged turtling is just too dull. I don't think they are worthy of an update anytime soon.

Surely if you find them dull as they are you'd be in favour of them receiving an update to liven them up a bit with some new toys and mechanics?

Questioning a troll's logic is not a wise move.

PappyTron#8042

erza321 said:

PappyTron said:

To be honest, I just want a mechanism (preferably Runic) that gives Dwarfs flavour as they are currently a one note faction to play due to having no magic, no cavalry, no monsters etc. The other issue that Dwarfs have is that everything is basically reactive: you wait for the enemy to get close and then you cast a rune to slow them or to buff your armour, and that's it. I really like Runelords and they can become super tanky, but they have three castable abilities and that's it. In the lore Runelords are incredibly powerful "spellcasters" and it's a shame that virtually none of that is reflected in the game.

Just looking at it, the Dwarfs have three abilities in the entire roster that are directly cast on the enemy:

1 - Thorgrim's debuff
2 - Rune of Wrath and Ruin
3 - Marked by Ulthar

Also:



Check out his Warhammer artwork: https://www.instagram.com/baeinu2610/?hl=ko

4 - Sceptre of Stone from the Dwarfs Forge, which is th only aoe direct damage the Dwarfs get.

Yeah, I didn't include it due to being an item rather than ability. It's actually pretty darned strong though: I obliterated three units of Skaven with it with one casting just yesterday!

Lord_Distamorfin#1941

erza321 said:

mightygloin said:

I wonder what are the chances of getting all the runes with a system to implement them and proper Anvil of Dooms. This is like half of the faction's flavour there. Such untapped potential. The current placeholders and TK copy item shop will surely need to be scrubbed or at least improved upon.

Weapon runes

Armour runes

Banner runes

Talismanic runes

Engineering runes

@CA_Duck replied to one of my many Dwarfs discussions I made three years ago and said: "No, sorry. It is definitely one of the things I wish we had done better in Warhammer 1, but currently there are no plans to redesign the rune system"

I do hope this has changed since then

Link to old discussion:

https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/197491/the-lack-of-the-dwarfs-runes

Luckily CA has vastly raised the bar in terms of content quality (if not in terms of bug fixing), so I think there's a strong possibility something similar to this or what I wrote up in my Dwarf thread happening in game 3. Dwarfs are not up to par mechanically as they are now.

Tayvar

mightygloin said:

I wonder what are the chances of getting all the runes with a system to implement them and proper Anvil of Dooms. This is like half of the faction's flavour there. Such untapped potential. The current placeholders and TK copy item shop will surely need to be scrubbed or at least improved upon.

Weapon runes

Armour runes

Banner runes

Talismanic runes

Engineering runes

Need to be scrubbed? why? the dragon slayer's axe from the forge mechanic, and the rune of dragon slaying are basically the same, yes it simplified in Total War, but it's working just fine.

Ben1990#8909

TheWattman said:

So something has had me thinking the past few days over the next Dwarf DLC, which for the record I think is going to be Thorek Ironbrow in command of Karak Azul in WH3. Some people may think he's the next one for WH2, but that's another discussion. What I'd like to discuss here and now is the specific content in terms of units - and especially lords - for that update. Thing is, I believe that the next Dwarf DLC will be a mix of remaining Runic and Engineer-themed units. The missing Slayer stuff will fall under Malakai's banner later on.

However, among the Runic/Engineer stuff we might hit a bit of a problem if we are to follow the semi-established LP-patterns of adding 1 new generic lord and hero alongside the LL, preferably in a theme with that LL. But the thing is, in a Runic/Engineer update alongside Thorek and possibly Grimm Burlokson (LH), we lack that option. We already have a Runelord, a Hero Runesmith and a Hero Master Engineer in the game at this point. And that is the setup for the Dwarfs in their armybooks. There is no established Lord alternative for the Engineers. Now, this may or may not be a problem, but it sure would be nice to see some sort of new leader variant based on the Engineers, especially if again Grimm makes it in as a LH alongside Thorek.

My answer is this: Enter Burlok Damminsson, Grimm's father. Specifically, his profession of Guildmaster of the Dwarf Engineers Guild. This is the closest I can find to something that rises above the Master Engineer in hierarchy, a generic Engineer lord, offering full diversity to Dwarf armies once the armybook-validated Dragon/Daemon Slayers follow Malakai later. Lord and heroes of all 4 variants: Regular, Runes, Slayers and Engineers. But then again, this would be a completely new and invented lord on CA's part, so Im not sure as to how possible it is. What do you think guys?

For the record, this would be the full roster added with this DLC:
LL - Thorek Ironbrow
LH - Grimm Burloksson (maybe)

Generic Lord: Engineer Guildmaster (maybe)

Runic-themed: Rune Guardians, Rune Golems, Shard Dragon, Shieldbreakers (maybe)

Engineer-themed: Thunderbarge, War Balloons (maybe), Dwarf Miner w Steam Drill

They will make both Thorek and Grimm as LLs. The question is who will appear first. Also would replace Shieldbreakers with Runesmith Apprentices. They come in a regiment as big as Dwarf Warriors, have better armor but no shields and dual-wield hammers. Can also cast the same runes as a Runesmith and Runelord, but they don't have access to Dampening nor Cooldowns to abilities. Also they come in multiple types and each has a specific rune to themselves. The very fact that you included Rune Guardians, Rune Golems and Shard Dragons shows that you and I think alike.
And I genuinely think that we'll be getting Thorek first due to the Eye of The Vortex campaign actually allowing him to awaken the Rune Golems since the Vortex is now pretty unstable enough to harness the magic that was used by Dawi of old to awaken these giant constructs.

The engineering theme...I will tell you this. They will either promote Master Engineers from Hero types to Lords and replace them with normal Engineers, or create the Guildmaster generic Lord with a different capabilities. Not to mention a different unit roster. Thunderbarges feel like they'd go better with the likes of Malakai and instead in a Dwarfs vs Chaos Dwarfs Slayer/Warmachines vs Monsters/Daemon Engines DLC along with the missing Slayer units and both Dragon and Daemon Slayers.

I'd go with the following for Grimm if he is made LL:
>Dwarf Engineers who are all armed with custom guns and melee weapons. Think Thunderers on steroids and who can beef up siege equipment.
>Dwarf Flamethrower Crew. Precursor to Irondrakes that appeared in a scenario in White Dwarf that was an reenactment of the fall of Josef Bugman's Brewery. Think of it as the Skaven Warpfire Thrower team but with Irondrakes, alcohol-based concoction and with trying to avoid collateral damage.
>Dwarf Mortar. Like the Empire Mortar, but much better in every way. Would be clearly anti-infantry. A nightmare for low tier ones especially like Skaven Slaves.
>Dwarf Juggernaut. It's what happens when Dwarfs make their own Steam Tank equivalent and something the Marienburg Landship wants to be but will never achieve it. Would be armed with an arsenal of siege weapons and have gunners to boot. Would be fun if Grimm had one as a mount option.

Temudhun#3587

The runic system needs a massive reworks, with runes being created separately then combined with a support using Grom's mechanic (yeah, dawi would kill me for asking to take inspiration from a Greenskin and apply it to them). And I would especially love to see engineering runes added to the game.

Tayvar

Temudhun said:

The runic system needs a massive reworks, with runes being created separately then combined with a support using Grom's mechanic (yeah, dawi would kill me for asking to take inspiration from a Greenskin and apply it to them). And I would especially love to see engineering runes added to the game.

Well it's a "greenskin mechanic" only in total war, it's not canon, yes the dwarfs should be able to upgrade their units gear, and the forge mechanic should stay, so dwarf lords gear remain upgradable.

mightygloin#2446

Tayvar said:

mightygloin said:

I wonder what are the chances of getting all the runes with a system to implement them and proper Anvil of Dooms. This is like half of the faction's flavour there. Such untapped potential. The current placeholders and TK copy item shop will surely need to be scrubbed or at least improved upon.

Weapon runes

Armour runes

Banner runes

Talismanic runes

Engineering runes

Need to be scrubbed? why? the dragon slayer's axe from the forge mechanic, and the rune of dragon slaying are basically the same, yes it simplified in Total War, but it's working just fine.

Because it hardly scratches the surface and just a copy-paste mechanic. You wouldn't lose much. Just because some items are same, it is not a justification enough to keep it if you want to design a comprehensive system.

Could always keep it as a side item shop though, wouldn't hurt.

Typhenirwolf

This isn't a gameplay suggestion, but I would love to see something where Dwarfen Runes flash across the center of the screen, similar to how the TWWH2 Factions have various "Rites" they activate to a satisfying logo animation. As long as they implement that and some good balanced mechanics, they won't ruin the Dwarfs. Or they WILL Rune them? Whichever works best.

TheLowKing#4090

Tayvar said:

Need to be scrubbed? why? the dragon slayer's axe from the forge mechanic, and the rune of dragon slaying are basically the same, yes it simplified in Total War, but it's working just fine.

The unique thing about Runes compared to most races magic items (other than that Dwarfs had 5 times as many as other races) was that you could combine them to make custom items. So the Master Rune of Dragon Slaying is similar to to the ingame Dragon Slayers Axe, but you could also add a Rune of Fury and a Rune of Striking to that if you wanted.

Just having normal magic items is not the Dwarf Rune System.

RikRiorik#9890

No to Shard Dragons, Rune Golems and Rune Wardens. Not only do they fill in areas of the inadequacies of the roster that should not be filled in but they also represent an aesthetic that is more World of Warcraft or even Age of Sigmar than it is Warhammer Fantasy Battles. They are all around abominable.

I don't think the Dwarfs will ever get more than the one Legendary Lord going forward. As much material as you can cram into TWW3 and beyond I think it'll be hard to cram in all the different Lords that people want. As such I really think that the remaining Dwarf Lord should be Thorek Ironbrow.

He doesn't need to bring rune based monstrosities to the table to be a good pick. He just needs a solid mechanic and to bring with him, if not an entire revamp of Runelords/smiths and Anvils of Doom, than at least the only proper Anvil of Doom in the game. If you then want units on top you can absolutely add stuff like Thunderbarges, Doomseekers and Goblin Hewers and then throw in Shieldbearers as a mount option for Dwarf Lords.

I really don't want to see Thorek in TWW2. I can't think of many Lords I would want to see in TWW2. I want to experience something a little more fresh and especially Thorek I don't want anywhere near any of the areas on the Vortex map.

Ben1990#8909

RikRiorik said:

No to Shard Dragons, Rune Golems and Rune Wardens. Not only do they fill in areas of the inadequacies of the roster that should not be filled in but they also represent an aesthetic that is more World of Warcraft or even Age of Sigmar than it is Warhammer Fantasy Battles. They are all around abominable.

I don't think the Dwarfs will ever get more than the one Legendary Lord going forward. As much material as you can cram into TWW3 and beyond I think it'll be hard to cram in all the different Lords that people want. As such I really think that the remaining Dwarf Lord should be Thorek Ironbrow.

He doesn't need to bring rune based monstrosities to the table to be a good pick. He just needs a solid mechanic and to bring with him, if not an entire revamp of Runelords/smiths and Anvils of Doom, than at least the only proper Anvil of Doom in the game. If you then want units on top you can absolutely add stuff like Thunderbarges, Doomseekers and Goblin Hewers and then throw in Shieldbearers as a mount option for Dwarf Lords.

I really don't want to see Thorek in TWW2. I can't think of many Lords I would want to see in TWW2. I want to experience something a little more fresh and especially Thorek I don't want anywhere near any of the areas on the Vortex map.

None of these are WoW or AoS tier. Quit whining. AND IT'S RUNE GUARDIANS.