Rate all the reworks so far

Thomassini

As in the title; if possible, justify your rating too.

For me:

-DWARFS: 3/10
It was ok at time because it was the first rework. Boy it aged horrible though. The only good thing was moving Ungrim and differentiating his faction and bonuses enough from the (generic) others; that’s why I didn’t give it a lower rating. Giant slayers have copied the death animation from slayers and thus look cheap as hell, while the Forge is basically a trimmed Ctrl+C Ctrl+V of Mortuary Cult, only with different items. No fleshing out the faction with a unique and loreful mechanic, unlike the last three reworks. Meh.

-VAMPIRE COUNTS: 7/10
Good work with Kemmler, even though he could be a horde. Decent change nevertheless. Bloodlines are very nice addition and fill the gaping flavor hole in VC campaigns. Nothing really breathtaking though.

-BRETONNIA: 1/10
I can’t express how useless their reworks were. Yes, I said reworkS, because there were two of them. Both of them a complete disappointment. Let’s have a look at changes and why they sucked:

-double the income from the economy buildings, watering down their campaign as THE feudal nation of Warhammer. They’ve already more than made up for the low income by having no supply lines
-increasing the garrisons and changing the units inside. This was arguably needed as far as unit choices go, but there was no need to increase them for lvl3 minor settlements that have walls anyway. Better change would be to give them a standard garrison building while taking the free walls away.
-tweaking the vow system. Boring and unnecessary change, this is not an RPG, and if they want to add some RPG flavor, then do it in right way, such as quest battles or items, not like this.
-buffing their AR values, thus providing a crutch to help them survive, while infuriating players, who now have to play a boring battle against peasant bowmen because AR bar says it’s an even fight.

And let’s see what problems they didn’t address:
-peasant economy mechanic which is ridiculously dull and contrary to the reality - it is the knights that should have limit, not some filthy peasant scum.
-implementation of GK. Yeah, they scrapped his summons cap, but his mechanic as legendary hero is just abysmal, especially compared to Kroak or even Isabella. What’s the point of taking him to my army full of lvl7-9 veterans if I have to disband one of them?
-awful campaign map representation, as compared to lore. Squeezed landmass, missing half of the dukedoms, no internal enemies (except the latter addition of Massif Orcal, not enough and botched btw) and three starting positions that have barely any differences between them.

If anything, they just watered down the gameplay and made them artificially strong in the campaign by bumping their AR. That’s why we are regularly seeing Louen prancing with 3 armies around Norsca. Ughhh.

-THE EMPIRE: 8/10
A lot of good changes, including the flavorful Elector Counts mechanic, fleshing out the campaign map, adding a lot of unique campaign units and items, new starting position and forts: generally making the gameplay experience much less vanilla than before.
But there were also bad ones. Only one new internal enemy despite many new regions, leading to the imperial steamroll and ultimately the infamous Ordertide. New starting position yes, but no new LL; instead Gelt was moved in a rather controversial decision, precluding a possible future implementation of Leitdorf in Averland. Last but not least, it was kinda buggy and some of the bugs remain to this day.

-GREENSKINS: 9/10
A lot of goodies, and some great changes in moving Azhag, reworked WAAAGH! and new Scrap mechanic, which has a lot of potential. BOBB coming later was a good addition too, and I include him in the rework for the purpose of comparison.
Map changes were fine as well, even though only 4 new regions were added in total.
Minus point for no unit variants and A TSUNAMI OF BUGS.

Still, it is the best rework so far. Leaves big hopes for possible WE and BM reworks.

Riddlebick#3912

Empire and Greenskins are a 10/10 for me. Played both, loved both. Personally, I think Empire offers even one of the best campaing experiences after the rework.

I have played VC, Dwarfs and Bretonnia far too little to really have an educated opinion.
But in theory, the VC Idea could be a 10/10 aswell. I just like it. Don't know how it feels in campaign though.

Private_Gubsy

I wouldn’t necessarily call the Bretonnian changes a ‘rework’, more just general changes that could be altered in the future.

GS is clearly the most all-encompassing rework, and despite some threads on these forums it is certainly the best rework.

Empire is second place, what they added simply makes the Empire more engaging (even if there are a few issues with imperial authority)

Vampires and dwarfs are honestly about equal for me, the Vampire gives you strong lords and bonuses with no downsides while making the base lords (and DLC strigoi) redundant. The dwarf rework, while it doesn’t actively hurt them, is just a paper thin crafting system that isn’t original - and does little to spice up the dwarf campaign.

WE probably need a rework the most (campaign-wise at least,) followed by all other WH1 DLC factions

Reeks#2417

I would say the GS top my list, with Empire coming second.

I´m still bummed out that CA did not revamp the Book Of Grudges, it´s just inconsequential in it´s current form, i would love it if it was the center around the Dawi campaigns and absolutely essential for campaign progression.

Vampire one is also "Meh" tbh.

Tennisgolfboll#5877

Bretonnia 1/10
Dwarfs 4/10
VCs 8/10
Empire 9/10
Greenskins 9/10

whatever140596

empire rework broke the ME and introduced order tide so i would say it was the worst thing ca has done tww wise. greenskins rework is extremely unbalnced, made to buff goblins and sell dlc, didn't like it one bit either.

RikRiorik#9890

I don't think there has been a bad rework. Some have been lesser though but that has mainly been because those races have not really needed big changes. I'll just comment on the one.

the Dwarfs:
Ungrim moved and approved. He now has a much more interesting campaign and his army actually feels a lot more refreshing than it reasonably should. But being able to run a Slayer army and chase things down as infantry is nice for a change of pace as Dwarfs. Giant Slayers are a bit of a cheap one though.

The Forge is alrite for what it is. It's characterful even if not entirely what you'd think about when making runic items but still it is a nice compromise. It doesn't matter that it is in many respects the Mortuary Cult 2.0. Not everything in game needs to be absolutely unique.

It might not be the biggest and baddest rework but then again who really felt that the Dawi needed one of those? Certainly not me.

manpersal#3961

RikRiorik said:

I don't think there has been a bad rework. Some have been lesser though but that has mainly been because those races have not really needed big changes. I'll just comment on the one.

the Dwarfs:
Ungrim moved and approved. He now has a much more interesting campaign and his army actually feels a lot more refreshing than it reasonably should. But being able to run a Slayer army and chase things down as infantry is nice for a change of pace as Dwarfs. Giant Slayers are a bit of a cheap one though.

The Forge is alrite for what it is. It's characterful even if not entirely what you'd think about when making runic items but still it is a nice compromise. It doesn't matter that it is in many respects the Mortuary Cult 2.0. Not everything in game needs to be absolutely unique.

It might not be the biggest and baddest rework but then again who really felt that the Dawi needed one of those? Certainly not me.

I 100% agree with this. Dwarfs may have a second rework at some point, but they're very far from needing it as badly as most other races. The argument about the Forge is pointless, because where leaves that the High elves? Their unique mechanic is available for the Empire now, so are High elves in need of a substantial rework? I wouldn't say so and same for Dwarfs. The book of Grudges needs some tweaks, but I think it can be done alongside a different major rework, just like some tweaks have been made for 2nd game core races in every patch.

Rating the reworks:
Dwarfs: 5/10
Vampire counts: 6/10
Bretonnia: hardly count as rework, agree with 1/10
Empire: 9/10
Greenkins:9/10

Thomassini

RikRiorik said:

I don't think there has been a bad rework. Some have been lesser though but that has mainly been because those races have not really needed big changes. I'll just comment on the one.

the Dwarfs:
Ungrim moved and approved. He now has a much more interesting campaign and his army actually feels a lot more refreshing than it reasonably should. But being able to run a Slayer army and chase things down as infantry is nice for a change of pace as Dwarfs. Giant Slayers are a bit of a cheap one though.

The Forge is alrite for what it is. It's characterful even if not entirely what you'd think about when making runic items but still it is a nice compromise. It doesn't matter that it is in many respects the Mortuary Cult 2.0. Not everything in game needs to be absolutely unique.

It might not be the biggest and baddest rework but then again who really felt that the Dawi needed one of those? Certainly not me.

Bretonnia was bad. Both of them didn’t bring anything new except very ‘meh’ vows while breaking some core concepts of the race (poor feudal economy made into a powerhouse, too strong AR) and not addressing the real issues Bretonnia has had since launch (botched campaign map implementation, lack of enemies, GK being a gimmick, peasant economy as another pointless gimmick).

Dwarfs was actually ok, but given all the new shiny toys GS, Empire an even Vamps have gotten, dawi rework looks lackluster in comparison.

As I said before, dwarfs have always suffered from “they are a decent race” bias, if only because they weren’t outright bugged (like GS) and did well as AI (unlike the pre-rework Empire). They are still nice to play as, but could be made so much better and more flavorful. It’s not like the lore doesn’t provide the material, on the contrary, they have a plenty.

RikRiorik#9890

I will say that I agree that the inconsequential nature of the Book of Grudges is a bit meh. It is in it's current form not impacting your campaigns in any meaningful way other than giving you extra gold and oathgold when you smack around armies you'd otherwise still be smacking around.

I would rather that you had to struggle with substantial debuffs that might also incur slight buffs for most of the campaign and that by the end of it all you'd start to get rid of said debuffs and maybe start to gain some more worthwhile buffs.

But it could work likes this. You have a starting amount of set Ancient Grudges relating to lost holds. In order to clear them from the Great Book of Grudges you need to reclaim those lost holds or for them to be under the control of one of your allies. These will quickly sour the mood of your Dwarfs leading to substantial debuffs to public order, higher upkeep for all armies but perhaps also giving you a +to leadership buff for all armies making the armies that you do have be more stalwart.

Taking back a lost hold will give some short lasting buffs to symbolize the landmark moment this would represent on top of also shaving off some of the accumulated grudge points.

The way it is now at least doesn't impact your campaign at all. You can be in over your head in accumulated grudges and not even noticing it.

manpersal#3961

Thomassini said:

RikRiorik said:

I don't think there has been a bad rework. Some have been lesser though but that has mainly been because those races have not really needed big changes. I'll just comment on the one.

the Dwarfs:
Ungrim moved and approved. He now has a much more interesting campaign and his army actually feels a lot more refreshing than it reasonably should. But being able to run a Slayer army and chase things down as infantry is nice for a change of pace as Dwarfs. Giant Slayers are a bit of a cheap one though.

The Forge is alrite for what it is. It's characterful even if not entirely what you'd think about when making runic items but still it is a nice compromise. It doesn't matter that it is in many respects the Mortuary Cult 2.0. Not everything in game needs to be absolutely unique.

It might not be the biggest and baddest rework but then again who really felt that the Dawi needed one of those? Certainly not me.

Bretonnia was bad. Both of them didn’t bring anything new except very ‘meh’ vows while breaking some core concepts of the race (poor feudal economy made into a powerhouse, too strong AR) and not addressing the real issues Bretonnia has had since launch (botched campaign map implementation, lack of enemies, GK being a gimmick, peasant economy as another pointless gimmick).

Dwarfs was actually ok, but given all the new shiny toys GS, Empire an even Vamps have gotten, dawi rework looks lackluster in comparison.

As I said before, dwarfs have always suffered from “they are a decent race” bias, if only because they weren’t outright bugged (like GS) and did well as AI (unlike the pre-rework Empire). They are still nice to play as, but could be made so much better and more flavorful. It’s not like the lore doesn’t provide the material, on the contrary, they have a plenty.

I don't think we're saying that Dwarfs should be left in current state, just that they're decent and attention is needed elsewhere for a few patches. Looking at the mechanics alone, are they worst that the Geomantic web? Intrigue at the court? Slaves? Amber? Brayherds? Bloodlines? What can be discused is that it makes 2 years without any dwarf content and that it would be nice to get them in the next DLC. But it needs to be remembered that Beastmen, Wood elves and Norsca have been waiting longer.

Red_Dox#2328

Dwarfs feel only lackluster in hindsight 2020. The time they got their rework in 2018, it was fine. And the race itself, is still fine. Even if they could use some improvements here and there. Like everyone else. That is the curse with this evolving gameseries. It starts out fine, but as more new shiny toys are added, the older stuff looks more bleak in comparision. Just look at Beastmen for crying out loud compared to game#2 race DLCs or now the reworked WAAAGH! mechanic.
Overall Dwarfs still don't need immediate improvements. Especially not since Dwarf fans have the urge to steal just other peopels mechanics [worse then the literal thieving rats we have ingame...]
"Oh TombKings have a forge? WE need that."
"Oh Ikit has a Workshop? "WE want that too."
"Oh Greenskins have now troop upgrades? "WE deserve that the most!"
Let them wait until game#3 I say.

Vampires were a bit better rework, and finally CA acknowledged OTHER Bloodlines. Still, instead barring and limit other Bloodline Lords behind a mechanic, it would have been nice for a rather general touch here to hire them as we like. Furthermore, it would still be nice to see at least one (1) LL for each bloodline represented, so that some people could enjoy a Necrarch or Lahmia playthrough. CA did a good job with the major Skaven Clans so far, and that is the example we should reach for the major bloodlines. Hopefully the future will provide here...

Empire rework was a bombshell in comparision to the previous two. Overall the only nitpick would imo be that we still don't have any playable Elector Counts which would make the internal conflict to "uniting" the Empire a bit more interesting.

Greenskins rework was needed and is kinda on the Empire level. But I think they dropped the ball on some points. The techtree, while better, could still have gotten a bit improved. Some techs tehre just seem to ignore certain troops, some overlapse in a "all in" bundle. A bigger split between Goblin and Orc buffs might have benefited different LL playstyles I mean Grom & Skarsnik just do not care about Orcs that much, while Grimgors 'ard Boyz should focus solely on Orcs and not be bothered with certain Goblin improvements.
The WAAAGH! idea is good, it plays fine to a degree. Major nitpicks is here the "loss" of all campaign movement buffs for every stack (don't know if bug or intended) and then the problem with the Trophies itself. Some trophies just plain suck, making it unfavourable to actually go for them. Even worse, if I have a big trophy I like and I want to keep it, I kinda have to never declare a WAAAGH against anybody else again. that is a bit unorcy. Maybe it would have been better to either allow to keep/change owned trophies on a whim [kinda like choosing your stance] or maybe change the system so that trophies stack. Of course if we would build up a trophy room, there have to be serious changes to the trophies because stacking them in the current state would be so IMBA that the elfs would immediatly start crying a river while just thinking about it.
Imo the rework also did drop the ball on subspecies diversification and the missing Lord/Hero front. We got the bare minimum with BOBB, and we are thankful for that, but would it have been so much trouble to make generic Savage Orc variants after Savage Orc tribes are for example the main NPC enemy on the Vortex map?

But right now, it will work out. I still believe that when game#3 goes live, we will see a shift similar as between game#1 and game#2, which means that every race might need a new rework to be on par with game#3 and the new mechanics the core races there will deliver.

-----Red Dox

goremand#5046

Am I alone in thinking vampires got the worst rework? Blood kiss mechanic is unbalanced as hell, you either spam banshee assassins and get showered in hickeys or don't and get nothing. Overpowered, lazily kitbashed lords, overpowered, boring factionwide buffs.

Bretonnia has some issues but it's nowhere near as bad.

Dwarf forging may be low impact, but at least it's a well designed mechanic.

Tennisgolfboll#5877

I really like the forge for the dwarfs. Still they got a sad ass rework

Draculasaurus

Empire: 9/10. A few issues, but it's one of the most robust and enjoyable reworks so far.

Greenskins: 8/10. Also quite good, but I found the Scrap mechanic a bit underwhelming and would have prefered some slightly different choices for the unique Waagh! units.

Dwarfs: 7/10. While their update wasn't revolutionary, exporting the Crafting mechanic to them was a a very fitting choice and moving Ungrim and giving him Giant Slayers made for an entertaining new campaign option. This was arguably the best rework before the Empire.

Vampire Counts: 6/10. I'm less of a fan of this rework than some. This is primarily because while I like the new lords and their bonuses, and enjoy the new start for Kemmler, the actual Blood Kiss mechanic seems underwhelming. It's an extremely slow moving and passive mechanic. A good new mechanic adds variety to the actions you can perform each turn, whether that's spending Influence to start a war between rival factions or Crafting a unique item for your best hero. Blood Kisses are obtained so infrequently, and only via doing things you would already be doing, that they don't add that much variety. Instead, you play as normal and every so often you get a new Blood Kiss.

Bretonnia: 3/10: Easily the most underwhelming rework so far, and that' s primarily because the Vow system has the same problem as the Blood Kisses, but worse. You play as normally, and sometimes you unlock vows incidentally. Even worse, while there are some more unique ways tog et vows, there's no reason to get those as the rewards are the same, so you just always pick whichever option is the easiest. At least Blood Kisses give you fun new generic lords with their own abilities, or fun bonuses like Sylvanian human levies. The Vow system just gives you stat boosts and is needed to afford knights. It doesn't add to the variety of actions you can take per turn and the rewards are either underwhelming or irritating. The dumbest part about it is they could have reworked the Chivalry meter instead, giving you more options to spend Chivalry points on interesting rewards, encouraging you to weigh the cost/benefits of short term gains versus the long term success of your campaign.

saweendra#3399

Bretonnia needed dlc . No amount of half baked reworks will help them. Repanse was a opportunity missed.

ujop#2805

Dwarfs 5/10
Vampire Counts 5/10
Bretonnia 4/10
Empire 9/10
Greenskins 9/10

TheLowKing#4090

Red_Dox said:

Dwarfs feel only lackluster in hindsight 2020. The time they got their rework in 2018, it was fine. And the race itself, is still fine. Even if they could use some improvements here and there. Like everyone else. That is the curse with this evolving gameseries. It starts out fine, but as more new shiny toys are added, the older stuff looks more bleak in comparision. Just look at Beastmen for crying out loud compared to game#2 race DLCs or now the reworked WAAAGH! mechanic.
Overall Dwarfs still don't need immediate improvements. Especially not since Dwarf fans have the urge to steal just other peopels mechanics [worse then the literal thieving rats we have ingame...]
"Oh TombKings have a forge? WE need that."
"Oh Ikit has a Workshop? "WE want that too."
"Oh Greenskins have now troop upgrades? "WE deserve that the most!"
Let them wait until game#3 I say.

To be fair, the reason a lot of people ask for those things is because they did have mechanics like that in the tabletop. It was supposed to be one of the things that balanced out the lack of magic; unparalleled item, warmachine and unit customisation. To see other races that had nothing like that in the TT get those mechanics before Dwarfs, who really should have started with it, can be quite frustrating.

Sparkwarrior777#6123

manpersal said:

I don't think we're saying that Dwarfs should be left in current state, just that they're decent and attention is needed elsewhere for a few patches. Looking at the mechanics alone, are they worst that the Geomantic web? Intrigue at the court? Slaves? Amber? Brayherds? Bloodlines? What can be discused is that it makes 2 years without any dwarf content and that it would be nice to get them in the next DLC. But it needs to be remembered that Beastmen, Wood elves and Norsca have been waiting longer.

N

Norsca?

Nazjax#2857

Just played Empire and I have just to say :

9,5/10.

I play since launch and i never went more far than turn 30 with Empire, this rework make them so interesting !

I like GS rework but I always liked GS so I prefer the rework of the Empire so far as I always loved GS.

Would say 9/10 for GS.

Can't call this Bretonnia patch note a rework.

VC are 7/10. Interesting but should have been pushed more into the bloodlines.

Dwarves are 5/10. But as they were very complete as start... They could have some new mechanics or more improved grudges maybe.

Lord_Distamorfin#1941

Dwarfs: 1/10
It's a copy/paste job from the Tomb Kings and doesn't capture the essence of Dwarfen Runeforging at all. I very much look forward to the day when the Dawi get a proper rune system and Grudge overhaul at the very least. I don't consider this to even be a rework.

Vampire Counts: 3/10
It's alright, it adds a few semi-unique lords, some bloodline representation and a new resource. But it's too underdone and honestly doesn't add much to the campaign. There's nothing to do with the blood kisses once you have all of the bloodlines at level 3 and at its heart, the campaign is still a Von Carstein-fest. The Necrarch kitbash is a travesty and the Lahmian isn't much better. I look forward to game 3 and the possibility that each bloodline gets proper representation and appropriate mechanics. I also don't consider this to be a proper rework.

Bretonnia: N/A

Empire: 5/10
Pretty good, dealt with a lot of the Empire's problems and made them vastly more interesting to play. Intervention battles are a nice addition that make you defend the Empire, but they were implemented poorly. Why can I just teleport a small force across the Empire instantly? The worst thing for me is the Elector Count State Troops. I hate how they were implemented, they're so unrewarding to get and a good portion of them weren't even implemented properly (Knights of Morr in Sylvania, Carroburg Greatswords and The Emperors Wrath are not proper RoRs). It's a very good framework from which to improve on, but it could use another pass. Overall average work, this should be the bare minimum standard that all future reworks look to.

Greenskins: 8/10
Excellent work by CA on this overall. The new scrap mechanic opens door to a lot of future additions and makes individual Greenskin units feel important. The new WAAAGH system is vastly superior than the old Fightyness gauge and finally delivers on the Green Tide. The tech tree rework was much needed, although it may still be a bit too Goblin-centric even after the newest beta patch. The Black Orc Big Boss was a much needed addition and finally looks like a hero from 2020 with his new skills.
WAAAGH movement needs to be looked into, the reduced movement is pretty bad. Additionally, the WAAAGH forces shouldn't be reinforcements, they should spawn into the battle with the main force. The lack of any new Orc units was disappointing, as was the lack of Armed to da Teef for Black Orcs. Hopefully another DLC will fill in these gaps. The gold standard for future reworks, CA should aspire to do at least this well in the future with other races.

Prkl8r#9998

I like how people in here say Bretonnia's 2 reworks weren't even real reworks, but if you ever bring up that Bretonnia needing something, people will scream in your face that Bretonnia doesn't deserve a single thing because they had 2 reworks already, and their roster already has all of the units from their severely outdated army book.

Horus89#9789

Dwarfs 5/10
Vampire Counts 7/10
Bretonnia 3/10
Empire 10/10
Greenskins 9/10

TheShiroOfDalton

Prkl8r said:

I like how people in here say Bretonnia's 2 reworks weren't even real reworks, but if you ever bring up that Bretonnia needing something, people will scream in your face that Bretonnia doesn't deserve a single thing because they had 2 reworks already, and their roster already has all of the units from their severely outdated army book.

HINT: It's different people saying this.

saweendra#3399

Prkl8r said:

I like how people in here say Bretonnia's 2 reworks weren't even real reworks, but if you ever bring up that Bretonnia needing something, people will scream in your face that Bretonnia doesn't deserve a single thing because they had 2 reworks already, and their roster already has all of the units from their severely outdated army book.

oh i know , its hippocracy

Ephraim_Dalton said:

Prkl8r said:

I like how people in here say Bretonnia's 2 reworks weren't even real reworks, but if you ever bring up that Bretonnia needing something, people will scream in your face that Bretonnia doesn't deserve a single thing because they had 2 reworks already, and their roster already has all of the units from their severely outdated army book.

HINT: It's different people saying this.

nope its just few people, and one of them admitted that he is only against it because his afraid it will take dev time away from factions he like.
one or two of them came around
other few doesn't even know how to play brets in battle or that ai doesn't actually fight battles and auto resolves.
and then the sakven fans who won't every thing under the sun and hates any thing that can not lead to more sakavn content.
hint you know where you belong.

Bereaver#4201

goremand said:

Am I alone in thinking vampires got the worst rework? Blood kiss mechanic is unbalanced as hell, you either spam banshee assassins and get showered in hickeys or don't and get nothing. Overpowered, lazily kitbashed lords, overpowered, boring factionwide buffs.

Bretonnia has some issues but it's nowhere near as bad.

Dwarf forging may be low impact, but at least it's a well designed mechanic.

You don't need banshees, regular necromances spamming "Wound" is enough. Source: My last Kemmler campaign. You also can get blood kisses by doing sea treasure expeditions - 1 Blood Kiss per each sea battle. So no problem at all.

I like that factionwide bonuses allow to overcome weakness Vampire Counts have at the start of campaign - mainly terrible public order with low corruption and attrition in any enemy land, which make it unreasonably hard to expand even in late game.