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Rebalance the casting time and cost on some spells

RandomPeasantRandomPeasant Registered Users Posts: 14
The way it works right now is that every "grey" spell has a one second casting time, 3 seconds for "green" spells and 5 for "blue spells". However, while some spells always go off just when the casting ends, there are other spells that have to wait after which makes them unjustly way easier to dodge (even 1 second can make a pretty huge difference when disengaging). Here are some blue spell that I think could go from a 5s to 3s casting time :

- Fiery convocation : the worst. If by any mean you missed the giant blue template over your frontline for 5 seconds, a bright giant phoenix will fortunately give you just enough time to urgently disengage before its too late. Still does huge damage so 3s seems alright.
- Vangheist's revenge : again, pretty hard to miss
- Comet of Cansandora (I don't think I've seen anyone getting hit by it since 2017)
- Piercing bolts
- Doombolt (I know its a homing missile but its still dodge-able and its baaad. It could go off faster)

This goes both way tho, and some other wind spells could get the opposite treatment :

- Penumbral pendulum : according to TWWstats, a non overcasted penumbral pendulum does more damage than an overcasted wind of death
Penumbral Pendulum : 72+36AP damage normal, 72+72AP overcasted
Wind of death : 0+24AP damage normal, 48+24AP overcasted
Now its obviously balanced out by the fact that the pendulum is way thinner, but its really a huge amount of damage in 3s and MP tends to promote thinner lines anyway. Nerfing the casting time of this from 3s to 5s would be nice since it won't interfere with SP, as the AI doesn't dodge.
- Seafang : Seafang does exactly the same damage as a normal pendulum except it goes farther and doesn't cost magic. And its harder to spot since there's no blue template, just a little dark grey magic portal. That's bs. It could go from 4s to 5s. It really can afford it.


As for my second point, the main reason people don't bring the real, fun and flashy spells like purple sun, wind of death or chain lightning isn't really because they're bad, its because you have to pay +200g for these which makes their opportunity cost way too high. Why would I pick Crack's call when I costs more than a unit of skavenslave Spears? Why would I bother with flame storm when burning head is so much more reliable? O think the cost of every spell should be normalized at the cost of the middle, "green" spells personally (so around 150g)
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Comments

  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 4,031
    the entirety of lore of heavens and beasts need a balance pass. specially since bretonnia only have these two lore additional to lore of life.

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,182
    Very great suggestions, 100% support
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  • BastileanBastilean Registered Users Posts: 440
    I am all for improving weak magic. I have trouble landing convocation against the AI. It takes soooo long.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 1,667


    - Fiery convocation : the worst.

    Well it depend on who use it. With Teclis it is great. Net+Fiery would wipeout such expensive unit like RoR Skaven halberds for example without any possibility to dodge it. I do use it often. Even ship are partialy dodgeable if you are not in melee. Fiery+net has almost no counter play. I do suggest significant AP damage nerf on it with reduced casting time. So it would be closed to burning head for example.
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 1,847
    Fiery convoc is terrible outside of teclis
    Make it like fay enchantress chalice of potion

    Visually the same as comet but different damage.

    So normal fiery can be buffed, and teclis fiery can be nerfed.(it has kindleflame on it too making it so much better than a high mage using it)
  • BjornNorlinderBjornNorlinder Registered Users Posts: 222
    Pendulum nd the boat are way too oppressive. They essentially wipe out a unit in seconds with little warning or time to react. Plz nerf the time needed to cast and.or the dmg associated
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,130

    Pendulum nd the boat are way too oppressive. They essentially wipe out a unit in seconds with little warning or time to react. Plz nerf the time needed to cast and.or the dmg associated

    I dunno about pendulum. Boat seems to trigger faster and is a bound item making it super strong for minimal cost. But OC pendulum costs alot of magic and can in some cases be dodged. There's a LOT of really impactful healing and summoning and buffing magic that pendulum is competing with. Burning head costs half as much and works great for unarmoured enemies and is harder to dodge.

    I think pendulum is in a good spot if you want damage spells to be competitive at all relative to healing or buff/debuffs or summons.
  • BjornNorlinderBjornNorlinder Registered Users Posts: 222
    eumaies said:

    Pendulum nd the boat are way too oppressive. They essentially wipe out a unit in seconds with little warning or time to react. Plz nerf the time needed to cast and.or the dmg associated

    I dunno about pendulum. Boat seems to trigger faster and is a bound item making it super strong for minimal cost. But OC pendulum costs alot of magic and can in some cases be dodged. There's a LOT of really impactful healing and summoning and buffing magic that pendulum is competing with. Burning head costs half as much and works great for unarmoured enemies and is harder to dodge.

    I think pendulum is in a good spot if you want damage spells to be competitive at all relative to healing or buff/debuffs or summons.
    Yeah... I would just add 1s or 0.5s to dodge. A burning head is easy to dodge unless ur controlling zombies
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,130

    eumaies said:

    Pendulum nd the boat are way too oppressive. They essentially wipe out a unit in seconds with little warning or time to react. Plz nerf the time needed to cast and.or the dmg associated

    I dunno about pendulum. Boat seems to trigger faster and is a bound item making it super strong for minimal cost. But OC pendulum costs alot of magic and can in some cases be dodged. There's a LOT of really impactful healing and summoning and buffing magic that pendulum is competing with. Burning head costs half as much and works great for unarmoured enemies and is harder to dodge.

    I think pendulum is in a good spot if you want damage spells to be competitive at all relative to healing or buff/debuffs or summons.
    Yeah... I would just add 1s or 0.5s to dodge. A burning head is easy to dodge unless ur controlling zombies
    Interesting my dodging experience is the opposite.

    I just hope if it when they do adjust spell wind up times they change wom costs accordingly - it has a huge impact on the average success rate for spells.
  • BjornNorlinderBjornNorlinder Registered Users Posts: 222
    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    Pendulum nd the boat are way too oppressive. They essentially wipe out a unit in seconds with little warning or time to react. Plz nerf the time needed to cast and.or the dmg associated

    I dunno about pendulum. Boat seems to trigger faster and is a bound item making it super strong for minimal cost. But OC pendulum costs alot of magic and can in some cases be dodged. There's a LOT of really impactful healing and summoning and buffing magic that pendulum is competing with. Burning head costs half as much and works great for unarmoured enemies and is harder to dodge.

    I think pendulum is in a good spot if you want damage spells to be competitive at all relative to healing or buff/debuffs or summons.
    Yeah... I would just add 1s or 0.5s to dodge. A burning head is easy to dodge unless ur controlling zombies
    Interesting my dodging experience is the opposite.

    I just hope if it when they do adjust spell wind up times they change wom costs accordingly - it has a huge impact on the average success rate for spells.
    Yup agreed
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Registered Users Posts: 1,549

    The way it works right now is that every "grey" spell has a one second casting time, 3 seconds for "green" spells and 5 for "blue spells". However, while some spells always go off just when the casting ends, there are other spells that have to wait after which makes them unjustly way easier to dodge (even 1 second can make a pretty huge difference when disengaging). Here are some blue spell that I think could go from a 5s to 3s casting time :

    - Fiery convocation : the worst. If by any mean you missed the giant blue template over your frontline for 5 seconds, a bright giant phoenix will fortunately give you just enough time to urgently disengage before its too late. Still does huge damage so 3s seems alright.
    - Vangheist's revenge : again, pretty hard to miss
    - Comet of Cansandora (I don't think I've seen anyone getting hit by it since 2017)
    - Piercing bolts
    - Doombolt (I know its a homing missile but its still dodge-able and its baaad. It could go off faster)

    This goes both way tho, and some other wind spells could get the opposite treatment :

    - Penumbral pendulum : according to TWWstats, a non overcasted penumbral pendulum does more damage than an overcasted wind of death
    Penumbral Pendulum : 72+36AP damage normal, 72+72AP overcasted
    Wind of death : 0+24AP damage normal, 48+24AP overcasted
    Now its obviously balanced out by the fact that the pendulum is way thinner, but its really a huge amount of damage in 3s and MP tends to promote thinner lines anyway. Nerfing the casting time of this from 3s to 5s would be nice since it won't interfere with SP, as the AI doesn't dodge.
    - Seafang : Seafang does exactly the same damage as a normal pendulum except it goes farther and doesn't cost magic. And its harder to spot since there's no blue template, just a little dark grey magic portal. That's bs. It could go from 4s to 5s. It really can afford it.


    As for my second point, the main reason people don't bring the real, fun and flashy spells like purple sun, wind of death or chain lightning isn't really because they're bad, its because you have to pay +200g for these which makes their opportunity cost way too high. Why would I pick Crack's call when I costs more than a unit of skavenslave Spears? Why would I bother with flame storm when burning head is so much more reliable? O think the cost of every spell should be normalized at the cost of the middle, "green" spells personally (so around 150g)

    Some good suggestions here, but I also think some of them are more a result of your 2nd point, of inconsistency for price/cheapness of other spells than anything.

    Fiery convo - Sure
    Vangheist rev - Maybe? Kinda hard to tell when Deeps is a trash lore in general so you almost never see it in the first place.
    Comet - Could use shorter CD, but think cost+cheap efficiency of windblast undermine this one greatly. Lets be absolutely honest here, lore of heavens has 4 damage spells. You only see 1 of them used.
    Piercing Bolts - Massive disagree. This is a very trong bombardment spell.
    Doombolt - Agree, though not sure going off faster would offset its innate issue of not hitting anything moving.

    Penumbral and Seafang - Agree

    Point #2 very much agree. Spells are already balanced out by their wind of magic cost, cooldown etc, there's no reason 1 should be way more expensive than another in gold.
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  • Modern_ErasmusModern_Erasmus Registered Users Posts: 201
    Agreed on all counts.

    Deliverance of Itza could use a shorter cast time as well, since with all the damage and cost nerfs it/kroak have received having well over 10 seconds between cast and detonation is a lot.
  • RandomPeasantRandomPeasant Registered Users Posts: 14
    Yeah maybe nerfing pendulum from 3s to 5s is a bit too harsh actually, its really a lot of time to dodge it. I don't really ant to nerf its damage since it interferes with SP but it'd definitely be the better alternative. Or just raise the mana cost but right now its too strong, can delete 2~3 elite infantry units in no time its a bit oppressive.

    For seafang, I personally believe it deserves to die a thousand deaths, and making it a bit easier to dodge by adding 1s seems fair to me.

    And yea just give teclis a lesser version of FC the same way doomfire warlocks have a lesser doombolt if its too strong, the nice thing with how I want to buff it is that since the problematic part with teclis' version is that its inevitable anyway with his net, you might as well buff the casting time for the others.

    I haven't played so much with piercing bolts too much since its seemed so unreliable to me but maybe it doesn't deserve the buff, I admit I don't know too much about this one.

    Finally yeah this buff is most likely not gonna be enough to make the 4 other spells I listed viable, but at least they won't be a guaranteed miss because it gives so much time to dodge, its a beginning along the cost reduction.

    Idk about a shorter time for Itza, the ptsd is still pretty strong with me
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  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 1,667

    Fiery convoc is terrible outside of teclis

    Well problem is that Teclis exist. And Net+fiery are impossible to dodge. Without adressing Teclis issue i see no reason to buff Fiery.


    Deliverance of Itza could use a shorter cast time as well, since with all the damage and cost nerfs it/kroak have received having well over 10 seconds between cast and detonation is a lot.

    Itza can be cast on top of you own troops without friendly fire, it make dodging much more problematic than other spells even if you know that it is coming.
  • BastileanBastilean Registered Users Posts: 440
    tank3487 said:

    Fiery convoc is terrible outside of teclis

    Well problem is that Teclis exist. And Net+fiery are impossible to dodge. Without adressing Teclis issue i see no reason to buff Fiery.
    This is a fallacious argument. OP's discussing reducing the cast time. That's not going to make Teclis any stronger, but it might make the spell not total suck for everyone else. I don't see what Teclis has to do with the discussion other than he might cast the spell without net and gamble on your misplay.
  • AWizard_LizardAWizard_Lizard Registered Users Posts: 1,233
    edited June 19
    OP, don't forget the chalice of potions, it's a miracle it doesn't miss the ground itself.
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  • Meteor18Meteor18 Registered Users Posts: 157
    tank3487 said:

    Fiery convoc is terrible outside of teclis

    Well problem is that Teclis exist. And Net+fiery are impossible to dodge. Without adressing Teclis issue i see no reason to buff Fiery.
    Net+Fiery combo is impossible to dodge regardless, changing the spell's cast time isn't going to make this combo stronger anyway.
  • AudacimousAudacimous Registered Users Posts: 39
    I think spell effect animations is also an issue -- some spells (specifically direct damage ones) have no windup animation at all whereas fiery convocation you have to watch a phoenix first spawn from the ground (which is a half a second in it of itself) before it even does anything.
  • AsamuAsamu Registered Users Posts: 670

    Why would I pick Crack's call when I costs more than a unit of skavenslave Spears? Why would I bother with flame storm when burning head is so much more reliable? O think the cost of every spell should be normalized at the cost of the middle, "green" spells personally (so around 150g)

    Crack's call is actually underrated. It comes out fast and does a ton of damage because of the large radius. IMO, it's actually one of the better spells in lore of ruin, though summons kind of overshadow everything else skaven can take, and warp lightning is more magic efficient and cheaper to bring.

    The rest of this post I agree with, though you're missing some points on the AoE of some spells; Pendulum only does damage in a very thin line, while Wind of Death has a pretty large radius for the AoE, and goes much further; Wind of Death can also get 2 ticks of damage on many of the units it passes over, so the actual damage value is a bit misleading. Wind of death is probably the strongest spell in the game on campaign because of how the AI blobs up; Pendulum is good, but there are a huge number of stronger spells. In MP, pendulum is good because of that thin AoE making it unlikely to cause friendly fire, and the relatively short casting time, while the AOE and travel distance of wind of death can make it unwieldy to use.


    Bombardment spells and circular/random movement Vortexes have a huge risk of friendly fire on top of the risk of being dodged and doing nothing, and they perform relatively poorly vs spaghetti line/spread out formations, which are what is common in MP.

    Comet, Piercing Bolts, and Searing doom are the most in need of shorter delays before the damage starts. The delay could be cut in half for these spells and they would still be easy to dodge if you spot them at the start of the cast. ~12-13s before damage even starts is absurd.
    Ex: piercing bolts has a 5s windup with a 9s active time; the bolts don't start dropping until the last ~3 seconds of the spell, so only hit during the final ~2 seconds of that 14s duration + a bit of time while the projectiles are falling, but after the spell animation is completed. Yeah, the spell is strong if it hits a blob, but... How are you going to hit something with that in MP? In campaign, flamestorm is usually better, because of how the AI blobs.

    Searing Doom hits 4s faster than Piercing bolts because it only has a 1s windup, but is still too slow.

    Comet hits about when the first bolts from Piercing bolts would land; ~13s after starting the cast (5s windup + 7s duration for the animation summoning the comet and then disappearing).

    Warp Lightning hits in 6s, which is fairly fast, but still dodge-able if you catch it right away, but the projectile speed on it is practically instant; Thunderbolt is 7s, which is similarly fair. If Searing Doom/Piercing Bolts/Comet hit ~2s/4s/4s faster respectively, they'd be much more reasonable, while still being 1-4s slower than the lightning spells to even start their damage. At least, those are some time changes that I think would be reasonable without adjusting the damage or cost of the spells at all, as there would still be time to dodge, but they would be able to connect a bit more often. They still have the problem of being likely to friendly fire due to the larger AoE.

    For Vortexes, I think reducing the cost to take them would probably be the best solution. They're already extremely powerful in singleplayer, so buffing them to the point of being good/reliable in MP isn't really an option.
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