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Balancing Suggestions (6/18/20)

ptavangarptavangar Registered Users Posts: 1,170
edited June 18 in Balancing Discussions
1. LM monstrous artillery could use some help. The bolt throwing stegadon's bolts could use a bonus vs. large. The bastiladon with solar engine could use more AoE dmg because it is unclear what their optimal target is right now (they seem okay against some infantry and cav) and also it would help to compensate for its short range and the fact that it is often obstructed (which is fine because that's logical).
2. Perhaps night goblin (fanatics) could get more LD. In the lore, the fanatics are embedded within a night goblin unit and they're absolutely nuts. That's why in the game their ability has them just erupting out of the unit like madmen. I think the fact that they're crazy "brave" should contribute a little to their overall LD.
3. Please do something with the WE hawk riders... We've been saying this for a while. They're okay for rear charging backline units but their MD is so low that it is risky. Also, their missile attacks are pretty useless. They need a dmg buff. Also, why don't they have a 360 degree firing arc?
4. Wild riders should have AP attacks. They have asrai spears which confer AP dmg. Also, the unshielded variant has a sword in the offhand. Why isn't that taken into account with their stats? It would be similar to how the gors without shields have an additional weapon and therefore, their stats reflect that change. This would be a great opportunity to make the unshielded wild riders more interesting and useful...

P.S. - Noticed that in custom battles the blessed stegadon (bolt thrower) is the same price as the regular one (both are 1600 gold). That is obviously a mistake since blessed variants are 100 gold costlier in custom battles. Just pointing it out.
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Comments

  • Wtfah114Wtfah114 Registered Users Posts: 165
    I think you need to better understand the game before keep making these suggestions.
  • littlenukelittlenuke Registered Users Posts: 150
    1. no
    2. no
    3. maybe
    4. no
    Karaz-A-Karak discord: https://discord.gg/UZV6F5N
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 2,709
    Actually, making the unshielded wild riders an actual useful variant instead of just simply unshielded would be great.


    AP Wild Riders would be awesome, but not as a change to the current Wild Riders, but as a new unit, Wild Hunters (that was the name of the champion variant in TT).

    Having a cavalry unit that is actually able to fight other cavalry units would give WEs a nice extra tactical depth.

    I would say anything else is fine.
  • BjornNorlinderBjornNorlinder Registered Users Posts: 223
    edited June 18
    Kinda agree with the last two recommendations. I love hawk riders for their uniqueness but they need a buff. A melee variant would also be a nice addition.

    A wild rider variant akin to the gors would be sick, a really nice way of spicing the unit up. Right now they are just a useless shield variant, the most boring level of variation. Good idea.

    About ap, mmm, not sure, this would certainly help vs Brett but a fast ap with high charge unit running around would be crazy.
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 2,709

    Kinda agree with the last two recommendations. I love hawk riders for their uniqueness but they need a buff. A melee variant would also be a nice addition.

    A wild rider variant akin to the gors would be sick, a really nice way of spicing the unit up. Right now they are just a useless shield variant, the most boring level of variation. Good idea.

    About ap, mmm, not sure, this would certainly help vs Brett but a fast ap with high charge unit running around would be crazy.

    They would only be as crazy as their price.
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 4,031
    Pocman said:

    Kinda agree with the last two recommendations. I love hawk riders for their uniqueness but they need a buff. A melee variant would also be a nice addition.

    A wild rider variant akin to the gors would be sick, a really nice way of spicing the unit up. Right now they are just a useless shield variant, the most boring level of variation. Good idea.

    About ap, mmm, not sure, this would certainly help vs Brett but a fast ap with high charge unit running around would be crazy.

    They would only be as crazy as their price.
    Honestly i am fine with it bretonnia have bad match ups with pretty much all factions. One faction getting a anti bret tool won't make brets suck more.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • EmrysorEmrysor Registered Users Posts: 150
    Mounted spears are not AP, if you are going to change AP to wild riders it should translate to all cavalry wielding a spear. It doesn't make sense at all! All it give are charge bonus, come on I know this is fantasy but it gotta be kept to some degree of realism l.
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 2,709
    Emrysor said:

    Mounted spears are not AP, if you are going to change AP to wild riders it should translate to all cavalry wielding a spear. It doesn't make sense at all! All it give are charge bonus, come on I know this is fantasy but it gotta be kept to some degree of realism l.

    Wild Riders did not use normal spears, but asrai spears, which were AP. Yeah, we all know that AP works differently on TW and Warhammers, but every other asrai spear unit in the game is AP.
  • BjornNorlinderBjornNorlinder Registered Users Posts: 223
    Emrysor said:

    Mounted spears are not AP, if you are going to change AP to wild riders it should translate to all cavalry wielding a spear. It doesn't make sense at all! All it give are charge bonus, come on I know this is fantasy but it gotta be kept to some degree of realism l.

    Its an asrai spear not a nirmal spear. Also CO spear riders from both lzm and delf have ap
  • EmrysorEmrysor Registered Users Posts: 150

    Emrysor said:

    Mounted spears are not AP, if you are going to change AP to wild riders it should translate to all cavalry wielding a spear. It doesn't make sense at all! All it give are charge bonus, come on I know this is fantasy but it gotta be kept to some degree of realism l.

    Its an asrai spear not a nirmal spear. Also CO spear riders from both lzm and delf have ap
    If I am not mistaken, they are riding raptors and have lower model count. Raptors are not horses. Then I bet Bretonnia, HE even Empire Knights can have AP as well, because you can bless the spears to have it. It is not fair to cherry pick who you want to give AP spears to because reasons. This is magic anything can happen. Maybe Eldrazor or what he is called blessed the Dragon Princes to give them incredible penetrating power and by that logic Dragon Princes should get AP.
  • BjornNorlinderBjornNorlinder Registered Users Posts: 223
    Emrysor said:

    Emrysor said:

    Mounted spears are not AP, if you are going to change AP to wild riders it should translate to all cavalry wielding a spear. It doesn't make sense at all! All it give are charge bonus, come on I know this is fantasy but it gotta be kept to some degree of realism l.

    Its an asrai spear not a nirmal spear. Also CO spear riders from both lzm and delf have ap
    If I am not mistaken, they are riding raptors and have lower model count. Raptors are not horses. Then I bet Bretonnia, HE even Empire Knights can have AP as well, because you can bless the spears to have it. It is not fair to cherry pick who you want to give AP spears to because reasons. This is magic anything can happen. Maybe Eldrazor or what he is called blessed the Dragon Princes to give them incredible penetrating power and by that logic Dragon Princes should get AP.
    By ur logic raptors gain ap cuz Dino. So why wouldn't asrai spears gain ap? Its an ap weapon just like a Dino is.

    Personally Im not sure they should gain ap.
  • EmrysorEmrysor Registered Users Posts: 150

    Emrysor said:

    Emrysor said:

    Mounted spears are not AP, if you are going to change AP to wild riders it should translate to all cavalry wielding a spear. It doesn't make sense at all! All it give are charge bonus, come on I know this is fantasy but it gotta be kept to some degree of realism l.

    Its an asrai spear not a nirmal spear. Also CO spear riders from both lzm and delf have ap
    If I am not mistaken, they are riding raptors and have lower model count. Raptors are not horses. Then I bet Bretonnia, HE even Empire Knights can have AP as well, because you can bless the spears to have it. It is not fair to cherry pick who you want to give AP spears to because reasons. This is magic anything can happen. Maybe Eldrazor or what he is called blessed the Dragon Princes to give them incredible penetrating power and by that logic Dragon Princes should get AP.
    By ur logic raptors gain ap cuz Dino. So why wouldn't asrai spears gain ap? Its an ap weapon just like a Dino is.

    Personally Im not sure they should gain ap.
    I imagine you are fighting a raptor is a lot different then fighting a horse/stag. My point is that if you are going to hand AP just because they have some kind of magical spear, then most shock cavalry in this game should be transformed into AP. This is a package deal you start changing one unit, you need to inherently change them all. My logic is that an army dinosaur that can eat you is a lot more threating than being hammered down by a stag. Debating what kind of spears serves no purpose since anyone can get a weapon enchanted by some God it seems like in this universe. I have doubt being charged by any mount is extremely dangerous, but it should be bound to some logic at least. I for one would accept this if they turn Dragon Princes into hevay armor killing machines.
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 2,709
    Emrysor said:

    Emrysor said:

    Emrysor said:

    Mounted spears are not AP, if you are going to change AP to wild riders it should translate to all cavalry wielding a spear. It doesn't make sense at all! All it give are charge bonus, come on I know this is fantasy but it gotta be kept to some degree of realism l.

    Its an asrai spear not a nirmal spear. Also CO spear riders from both lzm and delf have ap
    If I am not mistaken, they are riding raptors and have lower model count. Raptors are not horses. Then I bet Bretonnia, HE even Empire Knights can have AP as well, because you can bless the spears to have it. It is not fair to cherry pick who you want to give AP spears to because reasons. This is magic anything can happen. Maybe Eldrazor or what he is called blessed the Dragon Princes to give them incredible penetrating power and by that logic Dragon Princes should get AP.
    By ur logic raptors gain ap cuz Dino. So why wouldn't asrai spears gain ap? Its an ap weapon just like a Dino is.

    Personally Im not sure they should gain ap.
    I imagine you are fighting a raptor is a lot different then fighting a horse/stag. My point is that if you are going to hand AP just because they have some kind of magical spear, then most shock cavalry in this game should be transformed into AP. This is a package deal you start changing one unit, you need to inherently change them all. My logic is that an army dinosaur that can eat you is a lot more threating than being hammered down by a stag. Debating what kind of spears serves no purpose since anyone can get a weapon enchanted by some God it seems like in this universe. I have doubt being charged by any mount is extremely dangerous, but it should be bound to some logic at least. I for one would accept this if they turn Dragon Princes into hevay armor killing machines.
    Umm, no.


    This is a TT adaptation. In TT, asrai spears had a rule that gave them AP. Dragon princes didn't.


    We can discuss this as much as you like, but trying to argue that giving ap to Wild Riders (obviously, with the corresponding prince increase) would somehow make every cavalry unit deserve it is not justified.

  • mightygloinmightygloin Registered Users Posts: 2,570
    edited June 19
    @Emrysor i'd say your lack of source material knowledge shows again. Why do you think 475 gold Eternal Guards do AP along with AL? Look



    As you see they are not regular spears. It's their shtick to do AP.

    Also Empire Knights don't have spears. They have lances and that's totally different so you can't compare them.

    As much as i detest pointy ears, Wild Riders should definitely do AP. Master Ptavangar has a point here.
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Registered Users Posts: 3,957
    Wild Riders with AP would be OP as heck, though.
  • BastileanBastilean Registered Users Posts: 440
    edited June 19
    Wood Elf update talk?

    I don't think Wildriders neeeed AP. They may not stack up to DP, but little does. If they had AP, they would probably get a WS reduction. Not sure what good that would do.

    If you did give Wildriders AP, I would make an AP variant and a non-AP variant like Wardancers. Maybe lose the spear on the non-AP to better support the WYSIWYG. Keep in mind frenzy benefits non-AP units more. Also, mounted units shouldn't have CDL and maybe shouldn't have AL (for wielding aserai spears).

    Wildriders are basically more mobile Wardancers with a powerful charge which is the way they were originally designed: Strength 4 multiple attacks (+1 strength on the charge instead of +2). Both variants of Wildriders could be given more MD since they were originally intended to stick in fights like melee cavalry, better CB or better vigor, because they aren't encumbered. It says in the 6th edition book for the Fury of Kurnous: the spirit of Kurnous imbues the Wild Riders with deadly vigor. Yes, I know I am double dipping here, but units with light armor should have vigor advantages in general... I am really looking foward to what CA is pursuing with Troy armor variants.

    I actually do not like the AP wardancers conceptually because they are so different from table top. War dancers are going to brace for a charge? Not in my fiction. On table top you used a dance of loec vs. armored units and mixed your spears and swords together calling them Wardancer weapons... Think Armed to the Teeth but instead they dance differently.

    Wildriders on TT were a cross between light and heavy cavalry with their tatoos and spears benefiting fights into heavy weaponry and armor, but they were never intended to be run straight into armored combatants.

    The shieldless Wildrider variant have a spear in their right hand and a sword in the left. They should be anti-infantry since they have an extra anti-infantry weapon. Evaluate the cost for the ai bonus if provided.

    The Eternal Guard without shields should get +10 MA and -10MD distinguishing them from shielded variety. They are wielding a dual spear, so they should be more aggressive attackers with both hands unencumbered and easier to hit. Maybe they could get a bit of a charge bonus too.

    While we are at it, give other army weapon variants more interesting trade offs too. Lizards, Empire, Skaven, etc.

    As far as Warhawks, these things are fantastic, but lack good health and armor. Warhawk hit and run is good just like the army book description. Working as intended. These are basically your faster AP wildriders. I really like them in SP. You don't need to make them much tougher, because that's what the Dragon is for. Warhawks are far more flexible than the eagle and cost about as much. The arrows are nice but not oppressive. Increasing MA and MD to be closer to that of glade riders would be a real QL improvement if they need one.

    I would like to see Tier 4+ melee combatants other than the SE Dragon and Tree.

    As far as AP cavalry, I want a unit of monstrous cavalry: Great Stag Riders akin to demigryph knights, but with 30 physical resistance, forest walk and 85 speed instead of 125 armor. If WE got these, WE wouldn't need Wildriders with AP.

    Also, would be easy to create a herd of unicorns with magic attacks, magic resistance and high health like the mount. Maybe with a healing bound spell. They would have less entities and higher mass than Wildriders. Maybe have an aura. Good vs. undead armies.

    I would personally like some improvements to WWRangers to put them more in Tier 4 territory (+30 armor for +100g) since Aserai Spear Dancers make for good Tier 3 and there is a lot of overlap.

    Treeman should have strangle roots ranged attacks.

    Orion's bow is supposed to have infantry piercing similar to a bolt thrower. Not sure if that's in the game. I didn't notice during two play throughs if it does, but I did notice one of the new myst warrior units HESkyhawks? is supposed to has this.
    Post edited by Bastilean on
  • mightygloinmightygloin Registered Users Posts: 2,570
    edited June 19

    Wild Riders with AP would be OP as heck, though.

    There is a price on everything son. Right now they cost even less than Reiksguard so there is room too.

    Besides they are low armor so still vulnerable to many things.

  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 4,031
    edited June 19

    Wild Riders with AP would be OP as heck, though.

    it will be properly elfed though which is the most important thing
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • TlaxtlanSoothsayerTlaxtlanSoothsayer Registered Users Posts: 2,544

    Wild Riders with AP would be OP as heck, though.

    it will be properly elfed though which is the most important thing

    Have you noticed their elven shields?
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 1,722

    Wild Riders with AP would be OP as heck, though.

    it will be properly elfed though which is the most important thing

    Have you noticed their elven shields?
    its less than chaos shields though !!
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 4,031

    Wild Riders with AP would be OP as heck, though.

    it will be properly elfed though which is the most important thing

    Have you noticed their elven shields?
    But but ap, i mean we are better than de so, they should get more elfed.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • TlaxtlanSoothsayerTlaxtlanSoothsayer Registered Users Posts: 2,544

    Wild Riders with AP would be OP as heck, though.

    it will be properly elfed though which is the most important thing

    Have you noticed their elven shields?
    But but ap, i mean we are better than de so, they should get more elfed.

    To be elfed, or not to be elfed, that is the question.
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 4,031

    Wild Riders with AP would be OP as heck, though.

    it will be properly elfed though which is the most important thing

    Have you noticed their elven shields?
    But but ap, i mean we are better than de so, they should get more elfed.

    To be elfed, or not to be elfed, that is the question.
    Always choose to being elfed elf maidens are pretty.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Registered Users Posts: 3,957
    Wild Riders have FREE 25% missile block chance

    #elfed
  • mightygloinmightygloin Registered Users Posts: 2,570
    Woah they really have better shields than ironbreakers on them tasty stags. I take it back, no AP for them. Pointy ears be damned!
  • EmrysorEmrysor Registered Users Posts: 150

    @Emrysor i'd say your lack of source material knowledge shows again. Why do you think 475 gold Eternal Guards do AP along with AL? Look



    As you see they are not regular spears. It's their shtick to do AP.

    Also Empire Knights don't have spears. They have lances and that's totally different so you can't compare them.

    As much as i detest pointy ears, Wild Riders should definitely do AP. Master Ptavangar has a point here.

    You are completely right I have no real interest in what it says in the TT and what not. It is just not realistic that you can say some spears are armor piercing and some are not. Also lances are not armor piercing either. A Lance would break, knights would aim for where the enemy has a weak spot to cause maximum damage. Sending a unit of spears against heavily armored knights, for example chosen that seems even more armored than the best armor youc could get late middle ages is just ludicrous. If you want to use the fantasy argument this should apply as a general rule. Send me all the photos of the TT you want it does not change the fact it is very unlogical. In historical context spears did worse when you were fighting heavily armored forces. The damage of lances is replicated with the heavy charge bonus. But I quess if all you want is that it should be accurate to the TT, then so be it I'm out.
  • BjornNorlinderBjornNorlinder Registered Users Posts: 223
    Emrysor said:

    @Emrysor i'd say your lack of source material knowledge shows again. Why do you think 475 gold Eternal Guards do AP along with AL? Look



    As you see they are not regular spears. It's their shtick to do AP.

    Also Empire Knights don't have spears. They have lances and that's totally different so you can't compare them.

    As much as i detest pointy ears, Wild Riders should definitely do AP. Master Ptavangar has a point here.

    You are completely right I have no real interest in what it says in the TT and what not. It is just not realistic that you can say some spears are armor piercing and some are not. Also lances are not armor piercing either. A Lance would break, knights would aim for where the enemy has a weak spot to cause maximum damage. Sending a unit of spears against heavily armored knights, for example chosen that seems even more armored than the best armor youc could get late middle ages is just ludicrous. If you want to use the fantasy argument this should apply as a general rule. Send me all the photos of the TT you want it does not change the fact it is very unlogical. In historical context spears did worse when you were fighting heavily armored forces. The damage of lances is replicated with the heavy charge bonus. But I quess if all you want is that it should be accurate to the TT, then so be it I'm out.
    Ur logic is bad. This game is based on tt
  • AudacimousAudacimous Registered Users Posts: 39
    edited June 21
    I won't mind reworking WR to be more like COK -- a squishy 36 models monsterous cav unit with AP. It would be nice to see the meta switch from spamming WW all the time. Plus it would help against bad MU like Dawi, HE, and Bret.

    The problem with WE right now is that WR is your only melee cav option and you need them even in MU where they struggle. I mean they are still great unit -- just not as good as they were in game 1 and not up to the competition of game 2. Maybe if WE get a DLC we may see melee versions of glade and hawk riders, but reworking them to be more in line with TT is a good idea.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 6,370

    I won't mind reworking WR to be more like COK -- a squishy 36 models monsterous cav unit with AP. It would be nice to see the meta switch from spamming WW all the time. Plus it would help against bad MU like Dawi, HE, and Bret.

    The problem with WE right now is that WR is your only melee cav option and you need them even in MU where they struggle. I mean they are still great unit -- just not as good as they were in game 1 and not up to the competition of game 2. Maybe if WE get a DLC we may see melee versions of glade and hawk riders, but reworking them to be more in line with TT is a good idea.

    WE don't need this WE lack a budget cav from a roster gap perspective.
  • AudacimousAudacimous Registered Users Posts: 39
    Green0 said:

    WE don't need this WE lack a budget cav from a roster gap perspective.

    Say WE gets a $650 glade rider unit similar to Elyrion Reavers (no AP, similar stats, vanguard) -- how does this help the faction? They'll literally be a worst WR. Will it help against the heavy cav of Bret and HE? Does it help against armored Dawi? No, It will just be a redundant unit you take because you can't afford a WR and adds nothing strategic to the roster.
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