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Kislev's Lords - Who and how many?

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  • CelrodaineCelrodaine Registered Users Posts: 53
    Do we have enough start positions to put more than two of them on the map ? Kislev is not that big. Is there a good explanation to put some of them in the dark lands ?
  • DaruwindDaruwind Junior Member PragueRegistered Users Posts: 1,460
    ArneSo said:


    4 LLs is the new standard, 2 LL race packs are dead.

    4 LLs Minimum or riot!

    any CA statement supporting your wish or just your opinion? I´m perfectly fine with 2 LLs as long as the DLC is great. And honestly I don´t need more Norsca LLs. Other factions need them more

    But don´t think that I would protest 4 LL DoW/TEB or getting more LLs for others. I bought so far all DLC and would do so. Simple I don´t see Kislev as Core race no matter what, although DLC race...may be. We will see.

    I just think Kislev is perfect red flag that will push people for preorder and that is exactly what CA will do. They need something flashy, shiny, something in demand...

    His Royal Highness, Phoenix King Finubar!

    "It has been too long since I drew a blade in anger, Tyrion. You have been my sword, and Teclis has been my shield. But now it is time I fought my own battles!"
  • Captain_Rex#1635Captain_Rex#1635 Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 38,130

    Do we have enough start positions to put more than two of them on the map ? Kislev is not that big. Is there a good explanation to put some of them in the dark lands ?

    They can start everywhere to be honest. When we can get HE in Nehekara and the Dark Lands we can also get Kislev somewhere in the Steppes or the Dark Lands.

    This honestly doesn’t matter anymore.

    Summon the Elector Counts!
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 14,927

    Ogres can't muster really anything beyond 4 (Greasus, Skrag, Golgfag and Ghark Ironskin(maybe 5 with Groth Onefinger))

    Bragg the Gutsman and Braugh the Slavelord.
    Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
  • Captain_Rex#1635Captain_Rex#1635 Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 38,130

    Indeed, Norsca should recieve 2 more lords, as should the Wood Elves. Beastmen should land at 5 or 6. (Egil Styrbjorn, Sayl the Faithless, Drycha, Ariel, Taurox, Ghorros)

    Kislev IMO could fit both as a core race or race pack for WH3, since I think the magic number for WH3 (non-Chaos) will be 4. 4 lords for Kislev, 4 for Ogres and 4 for Chaos Dwarfs. Ogres can't muster really anything beyond 4 (Greasus, Skrag, Golgfag and Ghark Ironskin(maybe 5 with Groth Onefinger)) and the Chaos Dwarfs can definetly settle for 4, even though they definetly can do 6 if they need to.

    Going above 4 lords for Kislev I think is just stretching it too far, since they don't really have material for more than say core and 1 DLC or a race pack on par with Tomb Kings or Vampire Coast. Then of course there is the problem of starting positions and again I think 4 are only appropriate. 2 positions in Kislev itself (Katarin and Ulrika), 1 in the Farside Colonies (Boris) and one other expedition. Leaning towards the Gryphon Legion for that one. Radinov or Lubovasyn, it doesn't really matter.

    Ogres can easily get 6 LLs:

    Summon the Elector Counts!
  • TheWattman#7460TheWattman#7460 Junior Member Earth´s core... doing things you will never know aboutRegistered Users Posts: 1,580

    Do we have enough start positions to put more than two of them on the map ? Kislev is not that big. Is there a good explanation to put some of them in the dark lands ?

    The Kislevite Farside Colonies are located on the opposite sides of the World's Edge Mountains and are being colonized in intervals. Plus, Kislev itself can be broken up to have internal enemies, thus a suitable setup for a southern position in Kislev itslef and a northern in Straghov. Plus the Gryphon Legion often fights as mercenaries abroad.
    ArneSo said:


    Ogres can easily get 6 LLs:

    SerPus said:


    Bragg

    Crossil said:

    Bragg the Gutsman and Braugh the Slavelord.

    IMO Bragg would make better as hero. He is an excecutioner that walks the world alone, not the leader of a faction. He is a traveler from tribe to tribe, so definetly more of a Green Knight or Gotrek & Felix type dude.

    Same thing for Braugh honestly. I don't see him as the leader of a total war faction, much more like just a wandering slave trader tbh.

    I might have missed Vazgrat though. Says he is a Tyrant, but not of what tribe. Interesting...
  • SerPus#7395SerPus#7395 Registered Users Posts: 9,886

    walks the world alone, not the leader of a faction

    That can be said about how many LLs who are already in the game? Plus, unlike, for example, Snikch, Bragg doesn't even have any rules to show that he isn't a leader.
  • Captain_Rex#1635Captain_Rex#1635 Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 38,130
    edited June 2020

    ArneSo said:

    Do we have enough start positions to put more than two of them on the map ? Kislev is not that big. Is there a good explanation to put some of them in the dark lands ?

    The Kislevite Farside Colonies are located on the opposite sides of the World's Edge Mountains and are being colonized in intervals. Plus, Kislev itself can be broken up to have internal enemies, thus a suitable setup for a southern position in Kislev itslef and a northern in Straghov. Plus the Gryphon Legion often fights as mercenaries abroad.
    ArneSo said:


    Ogres can easily get 6 LLs:

    SerPus said:


    Bragg

    Crossil said:

    Bragg the Gutsman and Braugh the Slavelord.

    IMO Bragg would make better as hero. He is an excecutioner that walks the world alone, not the leader of a faction. He is a traveler from tribe to tribe, so definetly more of a Green Knight or Gotrek & Felix type dude.

    Same thing for Braugh honestly. I don't see him as the leader of a total war faction, much more like just a wandering slave trader tbh.

    I might have missed Vazgrat though. Says he is a Tyrant, but not of what tribe. Interesting...
    We already have Nakai and Grombrindal so that wouldn’t be problem.

    We also have underlings like Tretch and Tiktaqto Leasing their own factions so that’s also not a problem.

    Everyone can actually be a faction leader in TWWH. Everyone.

    Bragg would be to Ogres what Arkhan is to TK. That one guy everyone hates.
    Difference is: Arkhan actually has followers and can command Armies.

    Bragg meanwhile is so hated and feared that he, and that's his lore, can never become a Tyrant because NO Ogre will stick around with him.
    Commanding armies like Nakai? Or like Kroxigors in general?

    Or do you mean leading armies like Snikch?

    I don’t understand why people still come with the „X character can’t lead armies“ argument. That obviously doesn’t matter in TWWH anymore.

    Everyone can be a LL and everyone can be a faction leader.
    Summon the Elector Counts!
  • TheGuardianOfMetal#3661TheGuardianOfMetal#3661 Senior Member GermanyRegistered Users Posts: 14,701
    ArneSo said:

    Do we have enough start positions to put more than two of them on the map ? Kislev is not that big. Is there a good explanation to put some of them in the dark lands ?

    The Kislevite Farside Colonies are located on the opposite sides of the World's Edge Mountains and are being colonized in intervals. Plus, Kislev itself can be broken up to have internal enemies, thus a suitable setup for a southern position in Kislev itslef and a northern in Straghov. Plus the Gryphon Legion often fights as mercenaries abroad.
    ArneSo said:


    Ogres can easily get 6 LLs:

    SerPus said:


    Bragg

    Crossil said:

    Bragg the Gutsman and Braugh the Slavelord.

    IMO Bragg would make better as hero. He is an excecutioner that walks the world alone, not the leader of a faction. He is a traveler from tribe to tribe, so definetly more of a Green Knight or Gotrek & Felix type dude.

    Same thing for Braugh honestly. I don't see him as the leader of a total war faction, much more like just a wandering slave trader tbh.

    I might have missed Vazgrat though. Says he is a Tyrant, but not of what tribe. Interesting...
    We already have Nakai and Grombrindal so that wouldn’t be problem.

    We also have underlings like Tretch and Tiktaqto Leasing their own factions so that’s also not a problem.

    Everyone can actually be a faction leader in TWWH. Everyone.

    Bragg would be to Ogres what Arkhan is to TK. That one guy everyone hates.
    Difference is: Arkhan actually has followers and can command Armies.

    Bragg meanwhile is so hated and feared that he, and that's his lore, can never become a Tyrant because NO Ogre will stick around with him.
    The Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. We need Marius Leitdorf of Averland!

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him? For a Middenland DLC with Boris and the Ar-Ulric!

    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD!

    Queek could smell their hatred, ratcheted to a degree that even he could not evoke in their simple hearts. He stepped over the old orange-fur’s body, eager to see for himself what it was they saw. But he heard it first.
    'Waaaaaaaggh! Gorfang!'
  • Ethorin#1178Ethorin#1178 Registered Users Posts: 778
    Speaking of Preorder stuff... what if the next preorder bonus is more Norsca? That way they A. Answer requests for more Norscan LL's B. Keep the factions that have a bunch of characters for core race and DLC and C. Avoid "DLC for DLC" ideas.
  • brago90brago90 Registered Users Posts: 1,430

    The Warhammer Fantasy RPG is the source for most of our lore on Kislev. If CA is going to expand them into a full-on roster instead of that half-formed stuff from Warmaster, they are going to need to draw on the RPG. This neatly solves the problem of character choices, because the RPG is full of them.

    Now, CA seems to like making sure there's some variety between the LLs of a given race. They might have multiple casters or melee lords, but they are different enough from each other to provide variable playthroughs.

    Tzarina Katarin Radinov is a given, she's been referenced consistently as the leader of Kislev in both games. She's also a straight caster-lord without much focus on melee combat.

    It's notable that most core races start with both a caster lord and a melee lord. So if Katarin is the caster, we need a heavy melee lord. Tzar Boris Radinov is the obvious choice, but if Katarin is Tzarina, then Boris is either dead or abdicated. Some people around here have theorized he might be includedwith the explanation he abdicated to become just the head of the cult of Ursun, but this is pure fanfiction as Boris died while still Tzar. If we're resorting to fanfiction here, we can resort to it anywhere. The only real reason to include him is because he's the mst straightforward choice for a melee lord and is the only canon named character who rode a bear.

    If Boris isn't the melee lord, Ilja of Murova makes the most sense. He's a big burly guy who kills bears with his bare hands, seems to be favored by Ursun, and has acted as a champion of the Tzarina in the past. If we're willing to indugle in fanfiction, giving him a bear mount is an easy stretch, and would render Boris' role as a bear-riding melee lore effectively irrelevant.

    Okay, so that's a pure caster and a pure melee lord. How what? Well, we could have hybrid lords who are good at both, we can have ranged lords, monstrous lords, etc, etc. What are our options?

    A hag character of some kind seems likely. Everybody says Baba Yaga, partly because she could act as a hybrid lord with her monstrous Chicken Hut mount. But sshe's very on the nose, the most on the nose character outside of the Green Knight. The Kislev RPG is full of other hag characters. A number of them seem plausible. Baba Khubleya is only eight years old, but has been supernaturally aged and looks like she's 80 and has incredible skill at telling the future. Baba Osuleg lives in a hut made of human bones and is secretly a mutant. Baba Pogodya is a very old and powerful hag missing an eye and a hand, is noted for being ruthless, and despises the Cult of Ulric. Any of them could work, and you could easily give one of them Baba Yaga's chicken hut as a mount just because it would be cool.

    Now we're gonna need an FLC lord and FLC lords usually focus on units already present from release. A lord focused on the Gryphon Legion would fit this role, as the Gryphon Legion is composed of the standard cavalry of Kislev, equivalents to the Reiksguard. Either the Legion's independently-minded commander, Tordimir Lubovasyn or Katarin's younger brother know for leading Legion expeditions into foreign lands, Ivan Radinov, would fit perfectly. If the bear-riding melee lords are designed to tear up infantry, these guys could be lore dedicated duelists like Lokhir or Tyrion, mounted on horses.

    The two main ehtnic groups of Kislev are the Gospodars (nobles, knights, the leaders) and the Ungols (Hags, horse archers, skirmishers) and an Ungol horse-archer lord would stand out from any of the other options on this list. Only a few are mentioned in the RPG, but a famous Ungol chieftan named Stepan Rasin is brought up in passing as a great hero of Kislev, so why not him.

    So:

    • Lore of Ice pure caster lord
    • Bear-riding tanky anti-infantry lord
    • Lore of Hags hybrid melee/caster lord with a monstrous mount
    • Horse mounted melee duelist lord
    • Horse-mounted ranged lord
    Now, to me, those seem like perfectly solid choices. I guess you could also throw in Ulrika, but I have no interest in another vampire hybrid factions, we already have two with aranessa and arkhan. We don't need a third. Let Kislev be Kislev, don't dilute it with vampires. Also, seems pretty weird to make Felix an FLC character but then making his main squeeze a full on LL. Feels like grasping at straws, which is unnecessary when we have plenty of other good choices.
    Boris is easy to implement, you just have to change '' dead '' to '' presumed dead '' and start in a position far from Kislev in the middle of enemy lands. That the player depends on changing the story and making him live to see his daughter again.

    About Ulrika, she is a vampire and she is also a vampire hunter. She would not give access to vampiric units.

    And Ilja is a hunter, he would be a hybrid projectile and melee unit.

    Katarin: Ice Mage
    Boris: Bear Rider
    Ulrika: Duelist
    Ilja: Archer (very good in melee)
    Baba Yaga (It is the most important hag): hag witch
    And the last position remains unoccupied but as you say a ungol rider would be the most appropriate and would also be one of the FLC characters of the faction.
  • Ares354#1090Ares354#1090 Registered Users Posts: 4,301
    Daruwind said:

    ArneSo said:


    4 LLs is the new standard, 2 LL race packs are dead.

    4 LLs Minimum or riot!

    any CA statement supporting your wish or just your opinion? I´m perfectly fine with 2 LLs as long as the DLC is great. And honestly I don´t need more Norsca LLs. Other factions need them more

    But don´t think that I would protest 4 LL DoW/TEB or getting more LLs for others. I bought so far all DLC and would do so. Simple I don´t see Kislev as Core race no matter what, although DLC race...may be. We will see.

    I just think Kislev is perfect red flag that will push people for preorder and that is exactly what CA will do. They need something flashy, shiny, something in demand...
    I dont agree with you at all.

    I am not perfect fine with 2 LL, WE dlc was very good, apart from that Mini Campaign. Units wise, Lords wise. But after so many years, I cannot play Durthu or Orian anymore. No matter how much I would like. SO no, 2 LL arent prefect by any means.

    Because you dont need more, mean very little. Replayability of race is what matter. 2 LL limits this very much.
  • TheWattman#7460TheWattman#7460 Junior Member Earth´s core... doing things you will never know aboutRegistered Users Posts: 1,580

    Difference is: Arkhan actually has followers and can command Armies.

    Bragg meanwhile is so hated and feared that he, and that's his lore, can never become a Tyrant because NO Ogre will stick around with him.

    Exactly why I consider him not a viable Lord candidate. Definetly better suited as a hero

  • Captain_Rex#1635Captain_Rex#1635 Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 38,130
    brago90 said:

    The Warhammer Fantasy RPG is the source for most of our lore on Kislev. If CA is going to expand them into a full-on roster instead of that half-formed stuff from Warmaster, they are going to need to draw on the RPG. This neatly solves the problem of character choices, because the RPG is full of them.

    Now, CA seems to like making sure there's some variety between the LLs of a given race. They might have multiple casters or melee lords, but they are different enough from each other to provide variable playthroughs.

    Tzarina Katarin Radinov is a given, she's been referenced consistently as the leader of Kislev in both games. She's also a straight caster-lord without much focus on melee combat.

    It's notable that most core races start with both a caster lord and a melee lord. So if Katarin is the caster, we need a heavy melee lord. Tzar Boris Radinov is the obvious choice, but if Katarin is Tzarina, then Boris is either dead or abdicated. Some people around here have theorized he might be includedwith the explanation he abdicated to become just the head of the cult of Ursun, but this is pure fanfiction as Boris died while still Tzar. If we're resorting to fanfiction here, we can resort to it anywhere. The only real reason to include him is because he's the mst straightforward choice for a melee lord and is the only canon named character who rode a bear.

    If Boris isn't the melee lord, Ilja of Murova makes the most sense. He's a big burly guy who kills bears with his bare hands, seems to be favored by Ursun, and has acted as a champion of the Tzarina in the past. If we're willing to indugle in fanfiction, giving him a bear mount is an easy stretch, and would render Boris' role as a bear-riding melee lore effectively irrelevant.

    Okay, so that's a pure caster and a pure melee lord. How what? Well, we could have hybrid lords who are good at both, we can have ranged lords, monstrous lords, etc, etc. What are our options?

    A hag character of some kind seems likely. Everybody says Baba Yaga, partly because she could act as a hybrid lord with her monstrous Chicken Hut mount. But sshe's very on the nose, the most on the nose character outside of the Green Knight. The Kislev RPG is full of other hag characters. A number of them seem plausible. Baba Khubleya is only eight years old, but has been supernaturally aged and looks like she's 80 and has incredible skill at telling the future. Baba Osuleg lives in a hut made of human bones and is secretly a mutant. Baba Pogodya is a very old and powerful hag missing an eye and a hand, is noted for being ruthless, and despises the Cult of Ulric. Any of them could work, and you could easily give one of them Baba Yaga's chicken hut as a mount just because it would be cool.

    Now we're gonna need an FLC lord and FLC lords usually focus on units already present from release. A lord focused on the Gryphon Legion would fit this role, as the Gryphon Legion is composed of the standard cavalry of Kislev, equivalents to the Reiksguard. Either the Legion's independently-minded commander, Tordimir Lubovasyn or Katarin's younger brother know for leading Legion expeditions into foreign lands, Ivan Radinov, would fit perfectly. If the bear-riding melee lords are designed to tear up infantry, these guys could be lore dedicated duelists like Lokhir or Tyrion, mounted on horses.

    The two main ehtnic groups of Kislev are the Gospodars (nobles, knights, the leaders) and the Ungols (Hags, horse archers, skirmishers) and an Ungol horse-archer lord would stand out from any of the other options on this list. Only a few are mentioned in the RPG, but a famous Ungol chieftan named Stepan Rasin is brought up in passing as a great hero of Kislev, so why not him.

    So:

    • Lore of Ice pure caster lord
    • Bear-riding tanky anti-infantry lord
    • Lore of Hags hybrid melee/caster lord with a monstrous mount
    • Horse mounted melee duelist lord
    • Horse-mounted ranged lord
    Now, to me, those seem like perfectly solid choices. I guess you could also throw in Ulrika, but I have no interest in another vampire hybrid factions, we already have two with aranessa and arkhan. We don't need a third. Let Kislev be Kislev, don't dilute it with vampires. Also, seems pretty weird to make Felix an FLC character but then making his main squeeze a full on LL. Feels like grasping at straws, which is unnecessary when we have plenty of other good choices.
    Boris is easy to implement, you just have to change '' dead '' to '' presumed dead '' and start in a position far from Kislev in the middle of enemy lands. That the player depends on changing the story and making him live to see his daughter again.

    About Ulrika, she is a vampire and she is also a vampire hunter. She would not give access to vampiric units.

    And Ilja is a hunter, he would be a hybrid projectile and melee unit.

    Katarin: Ice Mage
    Boris: Bear Rider
    Ulrika: Duelist
    Ilja: Archer (very good in melee)
    Baba Yaga (It is the most important hag): hag witch
    And the last position remains unoccupied but as you say a ungol rider would be the most appropriate and would also be one of the FLC characters of the faction.
    Implementing Ulrika as a Vampire Hunter would be quite interesting.

    Just imagine a Neferata vs Ulrika crossover. Would be really cool in my opinion.

    I also think Ilja has a lot of potential and is a perfect FLC character. A focus on Kossars and Sibyrian Hunters would be fun battle wise. He could be the Alith Anar of Kislev with stealth and ambush tactics.
    Summon the Elector Counts!
  • Commissar_G#7535Commissar_G#7535 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 15,865
    ArneSo said:

    Do we have enough start positions to put more than two of them on the map ? Kislev is not that big. Is there a good explanation to put some of them in the dark lands ?

    They can start everywhere to be honest. When we can get HE in Nehekara and the Dark Lands we can also get Kislev somewhere in the Steppes or the Dark Lands.

    This honestly doesn’t matter anymore.

    Exactly. I genuinely don't understand how people can look at game 2s map and say with a straight face that races are limited by "loreful" start positions. This and the "not a leader" arguments are so dead by now I do not understand how one could even logically raise them as a point.
    MarcusLivius: You are indeed a lord of entitlement.
  • Wyvax#7456Wyvax#7456 Registered Users Posts: 6,260

    ArneSo said:

    Do we have enough start positions to put more than two of them on the map ? Kislev is not that big. Is there a good explanation to put some of them in the dark lands ?

    They can start everywhere to be honest. When we can get HE in Nehekara and the Dark Lands we can also get Kislev somewhere in the Steppes or the Dark Lands.

    This honestly doesn’t matter anymore.

    Exactly. I genuinely don't understand how people can look at game 2s map and say with a straight face that races are limited by "loreful" start positions. This and the "not a leader" arguments are so dead by now I do not understand how one could even logically raise them as a point.
    2 to 3 in Kislev proper, 1 in the Wheatlands, 1 way off on an expedition in the Eastern steppes where the Gospodar originated from and another in some random corner of the map cause reasons. Easy peasy.
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