How should DoW and Southern Realms be in TWW, maybe implementing Araby stuff - with POLLS

_Mad_D0c_

The ultimate DoW/Southern Realms (TEB) community questioning with several polls.
Imo they have so much potential, lore and stuff.
Very long post, so if you are only intetested in the polls, they are bold.

Faction concept of DoW/TEB

At first the most important and well known Characters are mainly from Tilea and Estalia like Borgio the besieger, Lorenzo Lupo & Lucrezzia Bellladonna (exceptions later down the post) but partly common for travelling. There are several options to have a multistart position like Malus, with origin settlement and colony (the former only in ME/ME2).

Poll 1: What should DoW/Southern Realms be in your opinion?
https://strawpoll.de/sc5e55d

1. Mix of DoW and TEB as their own settled faction with potentially very different sub factions.

With melting of DoW abd TEB we would have far more lore and stuff to work.
More exotic LLs, LHs and units are possible; while subfactions could easily get unique themes and exclusive units.
DoW/TEB has so much potential and fluff they need to be game 3 core faction or at least need DLC for DLC, because they easily could get up to 6 LLs.

2. DoW as mercenary system for existing factions and no own race.

Some seems to want them being only a mercenary system for existing factions rather than her own faction. Imo this would be a catastrophe and a really really bad solution for the game.
At first this will be watering down the uniqueness of every faction, because giving some of them the same unit options and possible solutions for their specific faction weaknesses.

3. DoW (horde) and TEB (settled faction) splitted in 2 different factions.

I think this is unlikely, because TEB has a high focus on mercenaries over their standard troops.

4. Something else
If you have another idea what they could be, tell us in the comments.

Mechanicwise, 3K seems to receive a mercenary system which could fit very well as base of an exclusive DoW/Southern Realms faction mechanic.

Link to two threads discussing this:

https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/259630/3k-new-mercenaries-system-seems-very-well-suited-for-dogs-of-war#

https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/260019/3k-mercenary-system-and-dow#

Cut outs and retcons

Imo some of the old DoW lore should be retconned, especially a cut for not order/neutral race units in their roster.

I think even when DoW is clearly neutral, GS and chaos worshippers (including dark emmissaries of Albion their followers) should be cutted out, Imo this lore is outdated and not fitting to the actual world. Beorg Bearstruck for example would be better as norscan LL than DoW. And Undead units/mercenaries should only availlable for the Borderprince Gnashag because hes a strigoi.
Asarnil Dragonlord and Ulther Stonhammer and even arabian and not undead pirates LLs /LHs and their units are possible. Possible additions of arabian stuff further below.

Poll 2: Should Chaos Dwarve, norscan, undead and GS mercenaries be included for DoW?
https://strawpoll.de/837erae

1. Retcon CD, norscan, undead and GS mercenaries for most/all of DoW.

Rather include them in more fitting factions, in case for Bearmen and Beorg Bearstruck in Norsca.
If Gnashag will be LL, he should be the only who can recruit undead (standard units or former undead DoW RoR).
I prefer this one.

2. I want them all: CD, norscan, undead and GS mercenaries, with the restrictions (animosity) from the old lore

TEB as neutral could recruit all of them in the armybook if I am right.
With potential animosity mechanic when you recruit for example GS and Dwarf mercenaries in one army or the one cant be recruited / exchanged if the other is in the army.

LLs and LHs for DoW/TEB

Imo the best would be to give them only human faction leader. If they pick the unlikely choice of Gnashag, he should be the only exception, but I would prefer Ushoran/Vorag for VC.
Not humans (generic and named) should be only heroes and LHs (Asarnil, Ulther, Long Drong)7
While there could be more than one Amazon unit and even Anazon hero, there should be no amazon subfaction and LL.

Those LHs should more unique like Kroak and not be like the 4 hunters of Wulfhart.

Poll 3: Do you want only human LLs for DoW/TEB?
https://strawpoll.de/zd67b7e

1. Only human LLs, dwarves and Elves as generic heroes and LHs
2. Give me not human LLs

Poll 4: should Mengil Manhide be part of DoW or DE?
https://strawpoll.de/54yawr1

1. For DE
2. For DoW
3. Leave him Rogue AI army only

More Additions to DoW/TEB

CA wil surely be aware to let them still have weaknesses and not be overpowered and preserve the asymmetric design of all the factions.

Giving mercenaries to the existing factions would be a huge failure, it would destroy their asymmetric design and style
Some of you hope to see neglected races show up as DoW mercenaries.

One big problem of the old armybook converting to higher editions and TWW is missing high tier stuff and monsters, especially faction unique monsters. The latter would be the most appealing for selling them.
They need to be highly reworked and need high tier stuff created by CA, like hippogryph knights were for Bretonnia.
Those monster units and the more exotic units would be the main thing to make them unique and apart from Bretonnia Empire and potential Kislev without taking to much from other races.

Imo Araby is one of the best candidates for this and can surely get some of their stuff.
By Albion I would be very reluctant, if ever only the white emissaries the more ordered Albion inhabitants.
Albion giants could work as rock throwers like cygor?





Poll 5:
Do you welcome the Marienburg Landship and or Albion giants as a standard high tier unit for DoW?
https://strawpoll.de/w86ggy8

1. No
2. Only Landship
3. Only giants
4. Yes, both

While some Amazons would be very welcome to DoW, especially a non-Amazon LL who will start in/near Lustria can more easily recruit them. When Cathay will not come as own faction some of their units and one from Nippon are welcome too (In very old lore I think Dragon monks and Nippon samurai were potential DoW mercenaries).


SeanJeanquois thread about the more exotic units and LL (I have taken a lot of his picture for this)

https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/253180/dogs-of-war-army-list-part-1/p1

SeanJanquoi has really good ideas for this faction. Some think the old DoW roster are only RoR for Southern Realms, but this is made for the army size of tabletop and would be bad for TWW. Here most of them should be made in regular units (some of the named regiments could be the RoR version of them).

The main army is based on ancient greek inspired pike infantry (phalanx), this should be expanded. A mix of conquistador and ancient greek/rome style would be very appealing to me and different to the other human races.
Those pike/halberd infantry could get unique formations like bretonnian cavalry.


Different tier pike infantry

Araby subfaction for DoW/TEB

If we never see Araby as their own, one arabian LL (Fatandira, Mydas or Golden Magus?) with some more exclusive arabian units would be very fitting for DoW. It would be even very lorefull that they fled the overrunned araby. Especially war elephants from araby (and/or Ind) could easily shovelled in as high tier standard unit recruitable for every DoW lord. Look at Hannibal in anciant karthago, DoW/TEB is highly inspired by the anciant greek/rome so it would fit very well and would be very good for marketing the faction.

Possible units from Araby for all DoW subfactions:

Arabian master assassin could be perfectly the assassin hero for all DoW.



Nomad camel riders? Or only horse riders?
War Elephants (variants possible)
Araby corsairs
Al Muktars Desert Dogs RoR



Potential units only for an araby LL in DoW:
Dervishers
Nomad camel rider archer
Assasins unit like gutter runners
Maybe some more reskin variants for infantry and cavalry.

No camel sharpshooters, djinns and flying carpets because of to much work for a lonely subfaction. Maybe carpets only, if the LL will get it as mount option.


Poll 6: Araby subfaction with 1 LL and more exclusive arabian units for DoW/TEB?https://strawpoll.de/a778beb

1. Yes arabian subfaction with LL for them.
2. No arabian subfaction for them

Poll 7: Do you welcome Warelephants to the DoW/TEB roster? https://strawpoll.de/ezzyxe9

1. No
2. Yes


Elephant


Clearly they should be smaller than mammoths but a bit bigger than our RL elephants could be possible. Which war elepant variants do you can see? With howdas archers/guns? How many elephants should be in one regiment?

SerPus

What does ' Mix of DoW and TEB' even mean? Tilean characters and units are already included in DoW.

_Mad_D0c_

SerPus said:

What does ' Mix of DoW and TEB' even mean? Tilean characters and units are already included in DoW.

No seperation between them, they would ve one faction.

SerPus

_Mad_D0c_ said:

No seperation between them, they would ve one faction.

They are one faction, that's the whole point.

ArneSo

They should be a mixed race representing DoW as well as the Southern realms.

Then they should also get Amazons, Halflings, Arabians and Albion with the Fimir treatment.

Their LLs should be:
- Borgio
- Lucrezzia
- Lorenzo Lupo
- Mydas/Gashnag/Lietpold

Crossil

You can't have SR without DoW. I know that a certain someone keeps pushing for a separation but that is completely nonsensical to the nature of both DoW and Tilea as factions. DoW are not united on their own and Tilea is their rightful home as a faction to be implemented in. One cannot be without the other and should be one and the same, just as the armybook showcased them.

You should note that Mercenary Giants were a thing. They weren't of Albion sort and only two Albion Giants ever were part of it. Therefore Albion Giants shouldn't be a standard unit but Mercenary Giants could be.

The Landship is potentially a unit but it can also go to the Empire. The only case in which I would give it to SR without any doubt is if Jaego Roth becomes an LL.

Also, Gashnag seemed like a possible choice for DoW/SR but after reading his entry in the Vampire Counts 7th ed armybook I think he's a superior choice to Ushoran and Vorag as a Vampire Counts LL. He is, unlike other Strigoi, an actual count by design. Dunno, the entire bit about him being an SR made some sense when looking at the RPG but the armybook shows that his realm is quite dark as that of the other VC, just that he hides it better.

Araby should not be integrated in any way into DoW/SR. It just has no real connection to them nor it has any common history with Estalia or Tilea.

DoW and SR are not Greek by design. They are Roman because they combine several different Italian time periods into one faction. That's why Lorenzo Lupo looks like a roman general and why Curious Gaezar(Julius Caesar) is a character that came from Tilea. There might be some slight overlap with Greek themes but they are roman/italian expys first.

The LLs will invariably be human. Most of the characters you can list for DoW are usually mercenaries or mercenary captains who aren't leaders and make for questionable LLs. Aside from Ghazak Khan who is a Mercenary General so maybe him but he doesn't really fit with other LLs all that well nor with the overall faction design.

Mengil and Long Drong are the real question, as you say. They were given back to their races in 6th edition DE armybook and Karak Kadrin list but they probably serve better as units here. Golgfag will surely be Ogre Kingdoms LL as he is one of their few major characters. Nothing short of an LL for Golgfag. Other mercenary characters are fine as is, units or LH.

SerPus

Crossil said:

The only case in which I would give it to SR is if Jaego Roth becomes an LL

Why? They can come with Edvard Van Der Kraal.

Commissar_G

You know TEB literally doesn't exist as a race right? And that they're just the DoW right?

Crossil

SerPus said:

Crossil said:

The only case in which I would give it to SR is if Jaego Roth becomes an LL

Why? They can come with Edvard Van Der Kraal.

I guess. My main reason for why he would be the absolute case in which they are to be added is because he's a captain and captain needs a ship.

ArneSo

Crossil said:

You can't have SR without DoW. I know that a certain someone keeps pushing for a separation but that is completely nonsensical to the nature of both DoW and Tilea as factions. DoW are not united on their own and Tilea is their rightful home as a faction to be implemented in. One cannot be without the other and should be one and the same, just as the armybook showcased them.

You should note that Mercenary Giants were a thing. They weren't of Albion sort and only two Albion Giants ever were part of it. Therefore Albion Giants shouldn't be a standard unit but Mercenary Giants could be.

The Landship is potentially a unit but it can also go to the Empire. The only case in which I would give it to SR without any doubt is if Jaego Roth becomes an LL.

Also, Gashnag seemed like a possible choice for DoW/SR but after reading his entry in the Vampire Counts 7th ed armybook I think he's a superior choice to Ushoran and Vorag as a Vampire Counts LL. He is, unlike other Strigoi, an actual count by design. Dunno, the entire bit about him being an SR made some sense when looking at the RPG but the armybook shows that his realm is quite dark as that of the other VC, just that he hides it better.

Araby should not be integrated in any way into DoW/SR. It just has no real connection to them nor it has any common history with Estalia or Tilea.

DoW and SR are not Greek by design. They are Roman because they combine several different Italian time periods into one faction. That's why Lorenzo Lupo looks like a roman general and why Curious Gaezar(Julius Caesar) is a character that came from Tilea. There might be some slight overlap with Greek themes but they are roman/italian expys first.

The LLs will invariably be human. Most of the characters you can list for DoW are usually mercenaries or mercenary captains who aren't leaders and make for questionable LLs. Aside from Ghazak Khan who is a Mercenary General so maybe him but he doesn't really fit with other LLs all that well nor with the overall faction design.

Mengil and Long Drong are the real question, as you say. They were given back to their races in 6th edition DE armybook and Karak Kadrin list but they probably serve better as units here. Golgfag will surely be Ogre Kingdoms LL as he is one of their few major characters. Nothing short of an LL for Golgfag. Other mercenary characters are fine as is, units or LH.

I agree with most of your points here but in my opinion some Arabian units would be fine. Especially if we get Mydas as a LL.

Thinking about the Golden Company from GoT, some War Elephants would be really cool and also fit the whole Mercenary theme.

SerPus

Crossil said:

My main reason for why he would be the absolute case in which they are to be added is because he's a captain and captain needs a ship.

That's weird reasoning, but I'm not sure that I want to ask more.

ArneSo

SerPus said:

Crossil said:

The only case in which I would give it to SR is if Jaego Roth becomes an LL

Why? They can come with Edvard Van Der Kraal.

Would be weird to have a guy with a Dutch name in a race based on renaissance Spain and Italy...

SerPus

ArneSo said:

Would be weird to have a guy with a Dutch name in a race based on renaissance Spain and Italy...

DoW are mercenaries from all over the world, not only Tileans or Estalians.

Crossil

ArneSo said:

SerPus said:

Crossil said:

The only case in which I would give it to SR is if Jaego Roth becomes an LL

Why? They can come with Edvard Van Der Kraal.

Would be weird to have a guy with a Dutch name in a race based on renaissance Spain and Italy...

A merc is a merc. Not an LL but it is another mercenary regiment to the mix.

ArneSo

SerPus said:

ArneSo said:

Would be weird to have a guy with a Dutch name in a race based on renaissance Spain and Italy...

DoW are mercenaries from all over the world, not only Tileans or Estalians.

They should be based on the Southern realms because that’s what the armybook is focusing on.

Check the Poll, most people want a mixed race of DoW and SR and not a pure mercenary race.

Borgio, Lucrezzia, Lorenzo and Mydas are all from Tilea so that should be the Focus of the Race. Marienburg is culturally Part of the Empire not the SR.

SerPus

ArneSo said:

They should be based on the Southern realms because that’s what the armybook is focusing on.

'Focused' doesn't mean 'limited to'.

ArneSo said:

Check the Poll

What for?

ArneSo

Crossil said:

ArneSo said:

SerPus said:

Crossil said:

The only case in which I would give it to SR is if Jaego Roth becomes an LL

Why? They can come with Edvard Van Der Kraal.

Would be weird to have a guy with a Dutch name in a race based on renaissance Spain and Italy...

A merc is a merc. Not an LL but it is another mercenary regiment to the mix.

Having him as some sort of special recruitable Lord or Hero would be cool. Similar to Markus Hunters.

ArneSo

SerPus said:

ArneSo said:

They should be based on the Southern realms because that’s what the armybook is focusing on.

'Focused' doesn't mean 'limited to'.

ArneSo said:

Check the Poll

What for?

The Race should be Southern Realms. The unit roster should be DoW from all around the world.

SerPus

ArneSo said:

The Race should be Southern Realms

It should be Dogs of War.

Commissar_G

ArneSo said:

SerPus said:

ArneSo said:

They should be based on the Southern realms because that’s what the armybook is focusing on.

'Focused' doesn't mean 'limited to'.

ArneSo said:

Check the Poll

What for?

The Race should be Southern Realms. The unit roster should be DoW from all around the world.

That's absurd. It's like renaming The Empire to the Central Human Citystate Federation.

ArneSo

SerPus said:

ArneSo said:

The Race should be Southern Realms

It should be Dogs of War.

So a horde?

ArneSo

Commissar_G said:

ArneSo said:

SerPus said:

ArneSo said:

They should be based on the Southern realms because that’s what the armybook is focusing on.

'Focused' doesn't mean 'limited to'.

ArneSo said:

Check the Poll

What for?

The Race should be Southern Realms. The unit roster should be DoW from all around the world.

That's absurd. It's like renaming The Empire to the Central Human Citystate Federation.

What?

SerPus

ArneSo said:

So a horde?

Why? Who told you that mercenaries can't occupy cities? Some of them are princes, you know. You should pay more attention.

Tennisgolfboll

SR is a name CA made up. It never existed before they made that name for borser princes, estalia and tilea.

I dont care if DoW are called CAs name or DoW as long as it is the race DoW.

ArneSo

What are the DoW LLs fro the armybook?
- Borgio the Besieger
- Lucrezzia Belladonna
- Lorenzo Lupo
- Mydas the Mean

Where are those characters from?
- Borgio: Miragliano
- Lucrezzia: Pavona
- Lorenzo: Luccini
- Mydas: Sartosa

Where are all those cities?
- Tilea

Where are most DoW mercenaries from?
- Tilea

Case closed. DoW and Tilea are the same and should be the same Race.

ArneSo

SerPus said:

ArneSo said:

So a horde?

Why? Who told you that mercenaries can't occupy cities? Some of them are princes, you know. You should pay more attention.

So Tilea and Estalia should remain Empire Clones?

How you would like to implement Borgio without Tilea?

I mean sure they obviously will start outside of Tilea for the Stand alone campaign but in IE Borgio should start in Miragliano.

ArneSo

Tennisgolfboll said:

SR is a name CA made up. It never existed before they made that name for borser princes, estalia and tilea.

I dont care if DoW are called CAs name or DoW as long as it is the race DoW.

The name honestly doesn’t matter here but Borgio should rule Miragliano and represent Tilea in Immortal Empires.

SerPus

ArneSo said:

So Tilea and Estalia should remain Empire Clones?

What? Why would that be the case?

ArneSo said:

How you would like to implement Borgio without Tilea?

???
Borgio is the prince of Miragliano. Obviously he should start there on the combined map.

XxXScorpionXxX

Dogs will be one of the 4 base races in WH3. They have the most potential of any faction for lord packs so that will be the main reason why they get in over Kislev(which will be the pre order or first DLC faction pack)

I think it should be a combination of Dogs and southern realms. The Southern Realms make up the core of the faction, its generic spearmen, archers, cav, ect. The flavor will come from the Dogs units being mixed into that core.

ArneSo

SerPus said:

ArneSo said:

So Tilea and Estalia should remain Empire Clones?

What? Why would that be the case?

ArneSo said:

How you would like to implement Borgio without Tilea?

???
Borgio is the prince of Miragliano. Obviously he should start there on the combined map.

Then I don’t know what we are arguing about. 😂

As long as we get Borgio, Lorenzo and Lucrezzia I don‘t care if the race is called DoW, Southern Realms, Tilea or whatever.

I just want the Southern Realms to be represented by DoW.

SerPus

ArneSo said:

Then I don’t know what we are arguing about.

I'm telling you that DoW isn't exclusively Tilea.