Regular Goblins are absolutely busted right now

SubjectEighteen

I don't generally complain about unit imbalances in the game, because for the most part, the game is balanced relatively well. Most things that are a little op are generally avoidable too or you can work around them at the very least.

Regular goblins are too damn strong right now though. A goblin front line can absolutely melt standard empire troops because of all their buffs. 12 turns into the game and regular goblins are beating empire swordsmen in combat. Plus they have immunity to psychology thanks to the BOBB meaning they dont even run away anymore when they do lose combat.

Either the waagh buff needs to be tweaked and the massive +24 melee attack needs to be removed or goblins need their stats lowered to skavenslave levels. They're a low leadership chaff unit, not one unit armies.

Empire state troops probably need a small boost in power too. Base 30 armor and bronze shields just aren't cutting it anymore. They also have relatively few stat boosts in the Empire tech tree.

I play on very hard/normal so the ai isnt getting any extra stat boosts either.

XxXScorpionXxX#2310

Yeah Goblins are a bit overtuned right now. Especially Grom's faction.

TheShiroOfDalton

SubjectEighteen said:

Plus they have immunity to psychology thanks to the BOBB meaning they dont even run away anymore when they do lose combat.

The ITP aura of the BoBB only prevents fear and terror from affecting units, it doesn't remove the LD loss from losing combat or other troops running away.

SubjectEighteen

Ephraim_Dalton said:

SubjectEighteen said:

Plus they have immunity to psychology thanks to the BOBB meaning they dont even run away anymore when they do lose combat.

The ITP aura of the BoBB only prevents fear and terror from affecting units, it doesn't remove the LD loss from losing combat or other troops running away.

Okay. Fair enough. That isnt really the problem. They've just got far too many buffs to their melee staying power. A frontline of regular goblins should do little more than hold the line for a while. They absolutely shouldn't be running right through the enemy's troops.

Itharus#3127

XxXScorpionXxX said:

Yeah Goblins are a bit overtuned right now. Especially Grom's faction.

This.

They are finally cheap enough with tech - but now *too* strong. The recent scrap and tech changes to orcs help, but goblins are still strong enough that they're just usually a better choice. Honestly they are too survivable. A front line of teched/scrapped/buffed gobbos under the right kind of lord can actually become pretty tanky. Pretty stabby, too. The AP scrap should probably be converted to anti-large scrap. The armor scrap gives something like +25 armor - that should honestly just be removed and replaced with something that makes more sense. Goblins do NOT run around wearing better gear than orcs. Even in goblin armies. Only the heroes and lords have the good stuff really.

Also, the Goblin/NightGoblin buff divide needs to go. Like... Goblin Tide for instance, v. the NGWB equivalent (I forget the name) is just hands down better than the NGWB one. Speaking of goblin tide - that should be like... the only armor buff gobbos can get outside of like... the chariot and cavalry scrap stuff. Just that +15.

But the whole of it needs some tweaking.

And Grom? Good lord. Grom is just flat out stupid OP. The AI doesn't seem to use any of that worth a damned but a player can just roll super goblins. I know Grom was made to new wh2 standards and all, and you wanted him to keep pace with the Skaven insanity, but... damn. Can you tone the power creep down across the board please? Battles have gotten a lot shorter recently because everything is just too damned killy. Most battles seem to be 5-7 minutes

The-Almighty-Zugs

SubjectEighteen said:

I don't generally complain about unit imbalances in the game, because for the most part, the game is balanced relatively well. Most things that are a little op are generally avoidable too or you can work around them at the very least.

Regular goblins are too damn strong right now though. A goblin front line can absolutely melt standard empire troops because of all their buffs. 12 turns into the game and regular goblins are beating empire swordsmen in combat. Plus they have immunity to psychology thanks to the BOBB meaning they dont even run away anymore when they do lose combat.

Either the waagh buff needs to be tweaked and the massive +24 melee attack needs to be removed or goblins need their stats lowered to skavenslave levels. They're a low leadership chaff unit, not one unit armies.

Empire state troops probably need a small boost in power too. Base 30 armor and bronze shields just aren't cutting it anymore. They also have relatively few stat boosts in the Empire tech tree.

I play on very hard/normal so the ai isnt getting any extra stat boosts either.

XxXScorpionXxX said:

Yeah Goblins are a bit overtuned right now. Especially Grom's faction.

I've noticed this with Grom and I personally like it. But Grom specifically. It makes sense that his Goblins would be strong (And yes I know they are damn strong with the added buffs etc). I tried out Goblin front lines with other LL's and normal Lords and it works at the beginning to a point but even with the buffs like fully maxed out Goblintide and whichever upgrade you choose (I go for armor), the other units start to be a lot more useful later in game.

mightygloin#2446

https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/hcjm0t/goblins_dwarfs/

https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/ha13ad/goblins_are_strong_as_hell/

RonNL#9690

Didn't the tech that made the goblins so strong nerfed a bit in the new beta patch?

Jman5#8318

ron1404nl said:

Didn't the tech that made the goblins so strong nerfed a bit in the new beta patch?

I don't think so. they just buffed up some of the alternative units.

Ares354#1090

Empire tech tree rework in Hunter and Beast was joke.

Empire as tech faction have one of the weakest tech tree in game, and Orc now have superior tech tree, and Lord buff...which is just stupid.

Dwarf need their runs from Thorek to be even close to fight Orc right now(DLC needed btw). Too much buff, lead to stupid things. Goblins should be mass, just like zombies, with right Lord and tactics, should work. But they shouldnt beast superior troops in frontline battles.

Nirgalo

You must be joking. 20 moves to learn all the technologies for melee units. Which together give them excellent stats. 1 move for a pathetic 7000 gold technology. Technology against greenskins gives +10 MD and a lot of morale, which even on the Legendary makes t1 swords almost unbreakable. T1 Empire swordsman have stats close to Warrios of chaos lol...after Lord + Tech buffs.

Ares354#1090

Nirgalo said:

You must be joking. 20 moves to learn all the technologies for melee units. Which together give them excellent stats. 1 move for a pathetic 7000 gold technology. Technology against greenskins gives +10 MD and a lot of morale, which even on the Legendary makes t1 swords almost unbreakable. T1 Empire swordsman have stats close to Warrios of chaos lol...after Lord + Tech buffs.

Same can be told about all if you take into Lord buff. You act like only Empire give their units Lord buff.....really

Nitros14#7973

It's not just goblins.

Campaign buffs of many sorts of way too strong, to the point of making the game feel pretty dumb.

Bogdanov89#9316

Goblins wrecking greatswords and swordmasters is so hilarious to see xD

CA failed big time with the last update, bugged to hell and very poorly balanced.

Itharus#3127

It is very buggy. I can't play more than 30 minutes without the game crashing or unloading to main menu when I go to save my game. It's incredibly frustrating.

Why the hell can't they release a product that isn't broken for a month or more after launch?

Wyvax#7456

XxXScorpionXxX said:

Yeah Goblins are a bit overtuned right now. Especially Grom's faction.

Groms basic gobbos and archers are basically green Ironbreakers and Ratling Gunners right now.

Nirgalo

Bogdanov89 said:

Goblins wrecking greatswords and swordmasters is so hilarious to see xD

CA failed big time with the last update, bugged to hell and very poorly balanced.

1 squad of swordmansters destroyed 250 of my fully buffed black orcs (+ Grom's cauldron) on L/VH difficulty. So stop telling cool stories. The only thing goblins can do except to be a meat shield is to cut garrison peasants at low levels under a full buff, as in the video above. Although I can also shoot a vidos where 2 choosens of the elect clean up a full garrison of Bretonia with 800 kilos each.

RikRiorik#9890

Generally I enjoy the way the Greenskins play now overall but I liked the higher difficulty they had before. It's all a bit too easy now across the board.

peabodyestate#9505

Grom's goblins are end game units with tech, recipe, scrap and lord skills.

Other lords goblins aren't quite as good.

The problem we will always have, is whether the game should allow for goblins to be used end game for greenskins, which for me is a no.

The caveat however, is for Skarsnik and Grom, who's goblins should carry until end game.

I like it, if anything I would like to see a BvL night goblin buff on skarsnik, and maybe a little more night goblin line holding stat skill, then you would never need boring black orcs against chaos.

In short, we can either have powerful specialised troops per LL, or only stacks of black orcs and stone golem for every LL each time you play it.

Greenskins in great shape.

Nitros14#7973

peabodyestate said:

Grom's goblins are end game units with tech, recipe, scrap and lord skills.

Other lords goblins aren't quite as good.

The problem we will always have, is whether the game should allow for goblins to be used end game for greenskins, which for me is a no.

The caveat however, is for Skarsnik and Grom, who's goblins should carry until end game.

I like it, if anything I would like to see a BvL night goblin buff on skarsnik, and maybe a little more night goblin line holding stat skill, then you would never need boring black orcs against chaos.

Should a goblin unit that costs 300 gold and 86 upkeep outperform a Black Orc unit that costs 1200 with 400 upkeep?

#568367

I'd suggest bringing it up in the subreddit as CA doesn't really pay attention here. But get ready for a lot of dumbasses saying "bALaNCE dOEsnt MAttER!" or "JuST dONT uSE thOSe buFFs!"

dge1

GreenColoured said:

I'd suggest bringing it up in the subreddit as CA doesn't really pay attention here. But get ready for a lot of dumbasses saying "bALaNCE dOEsnt MAttER!" or "JuST dONT uSE thOSe buFFs!"

I disagree. If a game issue gets posted in the correct forum, along with supporting game file information, it gets reviewed.

I also suggest you reread the Forum Terms & Conditions for commenting about other member posts.

https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/172193/forum-terms-and-conditions#latest

SubjectEighteen

Regular goblins still have way too many buffs in the tech tree considering how many other upgrades they have like scrap, lord skill buffs and the in-battle waagghh mechanic.

They just need toned down a little. They're currently too good.

TheShiroOfDalton

Buffstacking is a huge issue in this game.

Just look at all the sources buffs for any unit can come from:

1.Veterancy
2.Research
3.Lord Skills
4.Lord Traits
5.Items + Followers
6.Landmarks
7.Faction traits

If you got something like +3-5 points worth of buffs from all of these sources, you'd already have units working as if they're being permanently buffed by magic and that's frankly ridiculous. Viability of units should not come from low-tier units getting buffed into high tier units, but by scarcity. The point of Goblins is that they're dirt-cheap and numerous, not that they can eventually hit as hard as Chosen and Swordmasters.

It can be nailed down to the pacing of the game. Everything simply happens too fast. Research should be slowed down (since it does nothing but hand out buffs) and levelling should be tweaked to require more effort. Currently all character levels require equal XP and XP gain is tied to the type of victories you pull, which is pretty damn stupid since that's why sacking the same T1 settlement over and over again is the fastest way of levelling. XP thresholds should rise with level and XP gained from fighting should depend on what you've been fighting. So a depleted chaff stack should yield way less XP than a doomstack.

Tayvar

SubjectEighteen said:

I don't generally complain about unit imbalances in the game, because for the most part, the game is balanced relatively well. Most things that are a little op are generally avoidable too or you can work around them at the very least.

Regular goblins are too damn strong right now though. A goblin front line can absolutely melt standard empire troops because of all their buffs. 12 turns into the game and regular goblins are beating empire swordsmen in combat. Plus they have immunity to psychology thanks to the BOBB meaning they don't even run away anymore when they do lose combat.

Either the waagh buff needs to be tweaked and the massive +24 melee attack needs to be removed or goblins need their stats lowered to skavenslave levels. They're a low leadership chaff unit, not one unit armies.

Empire state troops probably need a small boost in power too. Base 30 armor and bronze shields just aren't cutting it anymore. They also have relatively few stat boosts in the Empire tech tree.

I play on very hard/normal so the AI isn't getting any extra stat boosts either.

Power creep and "supply lines" elite units spam is way CA has buffed the goblins so much.

Tayvar

Ingr8 said:

It is good to see options for using early units in end game stacks due to research snd tech buffs. Sering the same old units each time is rubbish and repetitive. Personally I applaud CA for making goblins viable

CA made goblins OP, not just viable, because they outperform units that cost much more than them.

TheShiroOfDalton

Ingr8 said:

It is good to see options for using early units in end game stacks due to research snd tech buffs. Sering the same old units each time is rubbish and repetitive. Personally I applaud CA for making goblins viable

Except they did so by completely destroying the point of the unit. Goblins should not be "viable" because they have Chaos Warriors stats by the end, they should be viable because there's so many more of them around than Chaos Warriors or Greatswords or Longbeards or effing Black Orks.

Tayvar

Ephraim_Dalton said:

Ingr8 said:

It is good to see options for using early units in end game stacks due to research snd tech buffs. Sering the same old units each time is rubbish and repetitive. Personally I applaud CA for making goblins viable

Except they did so by completely destroying the point of the unit. Goblins should not be "viable" because they have Chaos Warriors stats by the end, they should be viable because there's so many more of them around than Chaos Warriors or Greatswords or Longbeards or effing Black Orks.

CA had just solidified the elite units spam in another way and don't even raised the elite goblins upkeep.

peabodyestate#9505

Nitros14 said:

peabodyestate said:

Grom's goblins are end game units with tech, recipe, scrap and lord skills.

Other lords goblins aren't quite as good.

The problem we will always have, is whether the game should allow for goblins to be used end game for greenskins, which for me is a no.

The caveat however, is for Skarsnik and Grom, who's goblins should carry until end game.

I like it, if anything I would like to see a BvL night goblin buff on skarsnik, and maybe a little more night goblin line holding stat skill, then you would never need boring black orcs against chaos.

Should a goblin unit that costs 300 gold and 86 upkeep outperform a Black Orc unit that costs 1200 with 400 upkeep?

A goblin that costs 300 gold, 86 upkeep, many technologies, scrap and lord skills should be an endgame unit for Grom. The same could be said for savage orcs and Wurrzag, or night goblins for Skarsnik. Grimgors black orcs are better than anyone elses.

The only other alternative is for every single Greenskin lord to go the Black Orc route. Wheres the fun?

TheShiroOfDalton

peabodyestate said:

Nitros14 said:

peabodyestate said:

Grom's goblins are end game units with tech, recipe, scrap and lord skills.

Other lords goblins aren't quite as good.

The problem we will always have, is whether the game should allow for goblins to be used end game for greenskins, which for me is a no.

The caveat however, is for Skarsnik and Grom, who's goblins should carry until end game.

I like it, if anything I would like to see a BvL night goblin buff on skarsnik, and maybe a little more night goblin line holding stat skill, then you would never need boring black orcs against chaos.

Should a goblin unit that costs 300 gold and 86 upkeep outperform a Black Orc unit that costs 1200 with 400 upkeep?

A goblin that costs 300 gold, 86 upkeep, many technologies, scrap and lord skills should be an endgame unit for Grom. The same could be said for savage orcs and Wurrzag, or night goblins for Skarsnik. Grimgors black orcs are better than anyone elses.

The only other alternative is for every single Greenskin lord to go the Black Orc route. Wheres the fun?

No, the alternative is for CA to get off their asses and put brakes on the elite spamming issue.

Tayvar

peabodyestate said:

Nitros14 said:

peabodyestate said:

Grom's goblins are end game units with tech, recipe, scrap and lord skills.

Other lords goblins aren't quite as good.

The problem we will always have, is whether the game should allow for goblins to be used end game for greenskins, which for me is a no.

The caveat however, is for Skarsnik and Grom, who's goblins should carry until end game.

I like it, if anything I would like to see a BvL night goblin buff on skarsnik, and maybe a little more night goblin line holding stat skill, then you would never need boring black orcs against chaos.

Should a goblin unit that costs 300 gold and 86 upkeep outperform a Black Orc unit that costs 1200 with 400 upkeep?

A goblin that costs 300 gold, 86 upkeep, many technologies, scrap and lord skills should be an endgame unit for Grom. The same could be said for savage orcs and Wurrzag, or night goblins for Skarsnik. Grimgors black orcs are better than anyone elses.

The only other alternative is for every single Greenskin lord to go the Black Orc route. Wheres the fun?

Technology and Scrap is only a time issue, a Gear Upgrade on Every Single Unit should also Raise the Unit's Cost like in Alpha Centauri, and it's already works like that with Upgrades in Total War's Custom Battles, also while Men-at-Arms get Nickel-And-Dimed for Shields, the Super Goblins have the Same Cost as Normal Goblins, even though they Outperform many "Higher Tier" Units.

http://alphacentauri2.info/wiki/Upgrade_Cost