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stone troll nerf

kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 4,031
they are kind of overtuned i suggest at least lowering their missile resist
#givemoreunitsforbrettonia
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Comments

  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,130
    Alright I'll bite. I'm always a little conservative about nerfs to pricey units.

    https://twwstats.com/unitscards?units=f=0&k=wh2_main_lzd_mon_kroxigors&r=0&v=tww2_beta&units=f=0&k=wh2_dlc15_grn_mon_stone_trolls_0&r=0&v=tww2_beta

    So the comparison to Kroxigors:

    Pros:
    Regeneration
    +15% missile resist
    +25% magic resist
    +6 MD
    +8 speed
    +12 charge bonus
    +10 melee attack vs large,
    +25 melee damage vs large, +5 melee damage vs inf
    No primal instinct

    Cons:
    +100 cost
    -30 armour
    -10 melee attack vs infantry
    -30 leadership

    ---------

    The armour and the missile/magic resist kind of cancel out.

    For the other stuff, the question is how -30 leadership (huge) and +100 cost (medium) stacks up against regeneration (big), no rampage (minor), speed & charge (medium), much better vs large (biggish), and better MD (medium).

    Mostly I like that they have a pretty pronounced weaknesses, and I don't buy the argument that BOBB somehow makes that disappear. Low leadership on such an expensive unit is a big deal.

    But regeneration is a corresponding strength.

    Overall I could see minor nerf to MD to make their vulnerability in melee (which is their main vulnerability) a little more pronounced. But I don' think they're far off.







  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 4,767
    I was joking in the other thread, my point was that it's time to draw a line and stop whinging over every dlc unit that is performing better than some random older units.

    The game breaking stuff is already addressed in the beta, except maybe loons, but I assume ca knows.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,130

    I was joking in the other thread, my point was that it's time to draw a line and stop whinging over every dlc unit that is performing better than some random older units.

    The game breaking stuff is already addressed in the beta, except maybe loons, but I assume ca knows.

    Yeah and why should factions be balanced and of similar strength so long as they're not "game breaking"

  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 4,767
    eumaies said:

    I was joking in the other thread, my point was that it's time to draw a line and stop whinging over every dlc unit that is performing better than some random older units.

    The game breaking stuff is already addressed in the beta, except maybe loons, but I assume ca knows.

    Yeah and why should factions be balanced and of similar strength so long as they're not "game breaking"

    Can you at least try?

    Factions should be balanced, but not all units need to be balanced at exactly the same level. They aren't....
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 6,370
    Yep Stone trolls need nerfs. Too many resistances.
  • littlenukelittlenuke Registered Users Posts: 150
    i think a small nerf would be good, but nothing major
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  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,182
    edited June 23
    U sure? pretty subpar and underwhelming unit, I mean this is like saying noscan ice trolls overperforming

    Prolly need -50 -75 gold by the looks of it.
    They r basically ice troll without frostbite, turn that into near 0 relevance melee related resist as orks and get slammed with +$150 for that
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  • littlenukelittlenuke Registered Users Posts: 150
    yst said:

    U sure? pretty subpar and underwhelming unit, I mean this is like saying noscan ice trolls overperforming

    they have a nasty combo with bobb which some factions can struggle against, but on their own nothing special. their resistances are cool though
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  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 1,847
    I do feel like it is a bit overtuned. 50/75 gold overtuned
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,182



    they have a nasty combo with bobb which some factions can struggle against, but on their own nothing special. their resistances are cool though

    I mean thats throwing a $1000 and a hero slot to make it work. Thats like baddddd\

    Im unaware thers such a thing, I mean u got black orks and big uns. Its unthinkable any1 would pick stone trolls over black orks. 40 ld is insane
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  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,182

    I do feel like it is a bit overtuned. 50/75 gold overtuned

    Based on what? $1175 is kinda ridiculous, trolls r $800 lol
    Stone trolls r by far the most expensive trolls, even more than armoured trolls which is insane.
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  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,130
    .Yeah it's a fair point.

    They pay 150 more than armoured trolls for -40 armour but 30% missile resist and 25% magic resist and +20% weapon damage.

    Given how hard leadership is to compare between krox and stone trolls this is a lot easier comparison.

    https://twwstats.com/unitscards? units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh2_dlc15_grn_mon_stone_trolls_0%26r%3D0%26v%3Dtww2_beta&units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh_dlc01_chs_mon_trolls_1%26r%3D0%26v%3Dtww2_beta
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,182
    edited June 23
    Hes like a really sucky troll, how on earth would any1 have issues with this crap lol



    literally a lousy ice troll without frost bite, this thing needs -$50 bare min. prolly need -$100 to be competitive. Unless they have some hidden mega animation or mad splash, maybe mega vomit with hidden poison, this thing is like bad seriously
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  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,130
    Yeah definitely doesn’t need a nerf.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,182
    Quite happy for someone to bring stone trolls up. I was super excited when I first heard of them, im like hell ya, these frikking stone skin gonna be rocking with 90-110 armor like armoured trolls. Im mean heck worst case scenario they have 20 armor less than armoured trolls.

    Then I saw that 70. What the zog is this garbage lol

    Never in the game is there a $1100 with 40 ld, this guys r the first.
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  • SarmatiansSarmatians Registered Users Posts: 3,957
    Their missile resistance is very high, for no obvious reason, and it is a perfect example of powercreep.

    We have other monstrous units with Scaly Skin which have 15% missile resistance, but stone trolls got 30%. It needs to stop.

    Revert to 15% missile resistance.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,130

    Their missile resistance is very high, for no obvious reason, and it is a perfect example of powercreep.

    We have other monstrous units with Scaly Skin which have 15% missile resistance, but stone trolls got 30%. It needs to stop.

    Revert to 15% missile resistance.

    Do you think chaos armoured trolls are OP? What do you think the 1100 points are paying for? It’s not power creep it’s missile resist in lieu of armour.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 24,669
    LoL, Stone Trolls aren't OP, they only ever function decently if you combine them with BoBB. That's pretty much a TT combo since you had to accompany trolls with a character unit there as well or risk them getting bogged down by their stupidity rule and low LD.

    Trolls getting terror-routed so easily is one of the main reasons why they aren't as good as they could be.

  • The_real_FAUSTThe_real_FAUST Registered Users Posts: 770
    I don't see why they get higher armour and such high missile resist. It's a buff on top of a buff

    Drop it to 15% and cut 50 gold off them
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,130

    I don't see why they get higher armour and such high missile resist. It's a buff on top of a buff

    Drop it to 15% and cut 50 gold off them

    Did you compare them to chaos armoured trools? Do you consider that unit in need of nerfs?
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Registered Users Posts: 3,957
    eumaies said:

    Their missile resistance is very high, for no obvious reason, and it is a perfect example of powercreep.

    We have other monstrous units with Scaly Skin which have 15% missile resistance, but stone trolls got 30%. It needs to stop.

    Revert to 15% missile resistance.

    Do you think chaos armoured trolls are OP? What do you think the 1100 points are paying for? It’s not power creep it’s missile resist in lieu of armour.
    Super high armour doesn't protect you from AP. It can be 10 000 armour, AP will still go through it. AP is relatively plentiful and certainly a necessity when facing Chaos.

    So, I'd certainly rate much higher the combination of 70 armour, 30% missile and 25% magic resist than just 110 armour.

    That particular combination does very well to slow down most incoming damage, which is really what you want for your regenerating units. Regenerating units hate burst damage, so if they rely on a single defensive measure that you can bypass, you're doing very well. Regenerating units that mitigate most sources of damage somewhat are more durable and it is harder to hard-counter them.

    Are Stone Trolls game breaking? No, it's like HE Rangers. But they would be good with 70 armour, 15% missile resist and 25% magic resist. No need to powercreep them. It bugs me that we had an established value for Scaly Skin in similar units. Then we get a new unit and that value is suddenly doubled? Why?

    And then we get more units like that, so missiles become less strong so we get missiles buffed... an endless cycle of power creep.
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 4,031

    Their missile resistance is very high, for no obvious reason, and it is a perfect example of powercreep.

    We have other monstrous units with Scaly Skin which have 15% missile resistance, but stone trolls got 30%. It needs to stop.

    Revert to 15% missile resistance.

    Basically what i thought as well. Why should stone troll scaley skin be better
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • Elder_BasiliskElder_Basilisk Registered Users Posts: 382
    I think stone trolls are mostly a problem for high elves (and probably Brettonia) because the things high elves should be able to use to counter them (sisters of avelorn mostly) don't counter them due to the combo of missile resistance and magic resistance. (For Brettonia, magic resistance is probably a problem too due to grail knights and grail guardians).

    For other factions it's probably not nearly as significant though the magic resistance and missile resistance does neuter the easiest way for most factions to exploit fire vulnerability.
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 11,882

    They are kind of overtuned i suggest at least lowering their missile resist

    They are Stony, but a Rogue Idol is even more Stony so a yea 15 Missile Resistance should be enough.
  • ChaunChaun Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 150
    BOBB is responsible for them being too good in some matchups. The unit itself otherwise seems to have somewhat fair stats for its price.

    Reducing missile resistance to be in line with scaly skin would def make the BOBB troll blob less oppressive to factions that lack ap missiles.
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 11,882

    eumaies said:

    I was joking in the other thread, my point was that it's time to draw a line and stop whinging over every dlc unit that is performing better than some random older units.

    The game breaking stuff is already addressed in the beta, except maybe loons, but I assume ca knows.

    Yeah and why should factions be balanced and of similar strength so long as they're not "game breaking"

    Can you at least try?

    Factions should be balanced, but not all units need to be balanced at exactly the same level. They aren't....
    Some units are superior to others and should be balanced by price and not by making them weaker, that said a internal consistency is important, and units should be better only when it makes sense.
  • Jman5Jman5 Registered Users Posts: 578
    eumaies said:

    Alright I'll bite. I'm always a little conservative about nerfs to pricey units.

    https://twwstats.com/unitscards?units=f=0&k=wh2_main_lzd_mon_kroxigors&r=0&v=tww2_beta&units=f=0&k=wh2_dlc15_grn_mon_stone_trolls_0&r=0&v=tww2_beta

    So the comparison to Kroxigors:

    Pros:
    Regeneration
    +15% missile resist
    +25% magic resist
    +6 MD
    +8 speed
    +12 charge bonus
    +10 melee attack vs large,
    +25 melee damage vs large, +5 melee damage vs inf
    No primal instinct

    Cons:
    +100 cost
    -30 armour
    -10 melee attack vs infantry
    -30 leadership

    ---------

    The armour and the missile/magic resist kind of cancel out.

    For the other stuff, the question is how -30 leadership (huge) and +100 cost (medium) stacks up against regeneration (big), no rampage (minor), speed & charge (medium), much better vs large (biggish), and better MD (medium).

    Mostly I like that they have a pretty pronounced weaknesses, and I don't buy the argument that BOBB somehow makes that disappear. Low leadership on such an expensive unit is a big deal.

    But regeneration is a corresponding strength.

    Overall I could see minor nerf to MD to make their vulnerability in melee (which is their main vulnerability) a little more pronounced. But I don' think they're far off.

    That Kroxigor reference is a very apt comparison and people should check out the link before commenting. 40 leadership is pretty brutal. In the campaign you get around it because there are a million ways to stack leadership, but in quickbattles, it makes a big difference.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,130

    eumaies said:

    Their missile resistance is very high, for no obvious reason, and it is a perfect example of powercreep.

    We have other monstrous units with Scaly Skin which have 15% missile resistance, but stone trolls got 30%. It needs to stop.

    Revert to 15% missile resistance.

    Do you think chaos armoured trolls are OP? What do you think the 1100 points are paying for? It’s not power creep it’s missile resist in lieu of armour.
    Super high armour doesn't protect you from AP. It can be 10 000 armour, AP will still go through it. AP is relatively plentiful and certainly a necessity when facing Chaos.

    So, I'd certainly rate much higher the combination of 70 armour, 30% missile and 25% magic resist than just 110 armour.

    That particular combination does very well to slow down most incoming damage, which is really what you want for your regenerating units. Regenerating units hate burst damage, so if they rely on a single defensive measure that you can bypass, you're doing very well. Regenerating units that mitigate most sources of damage somewhat are more durable and it is harder to hard-counter them.

    Are Stone Trolls game breaking? No, it's like HE Rangers. But they would be good with 70 armour, 15% missile resist and 25% magic resist. No need to powercreep them. It bugs me that we had an established value for Scaly Skin in similar units. Then we get a new unit and that value is suddenly doubled? Why?

    And then we get more units like that, so missiles become less strong so we get missiles buffed... an endless cycle of power creep.
    So because chaos is predictable greenskin trolls need to be overpriced?

    Are you suggesting that chaos trolls on a greenskin roster would suddenly be OP?

    Anyway your broader point is about armour versus missile resist. Its pretty simple that armour protects on two dimensions (Melee and ranged non AP) while missile resist protects on a different two dimensions (ranged ap and non ap).

    Neither is inherently better. When I bringslayers or Spears and face chaos armoured trolls I know I’m in for some problems. Similarly when I bring guns Vs Stone trolls I know I’ve made the wrong choice. Neither of those counters is intrinsically different from the other.

    Simple fact is you have to kill stone trolls in Melee combat to a greater degree. This isn’t a special synergy with regeneration, it’s just a trade off.

    You can clearly see in the comparison with armoured trolls what stone trolls are paying for and how much. If you did nerf their missile resist they would need to cost less. But just as importantly they would lose the thing that makes them distinctive and interesting.

    Either way a straight nerf is not justifiable.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,130

    Spear units counter stone trolls. It’s simply not the case that ranged units are the only option for dealing with monstrous creatures.
  • BastileanBastilean Registered Users Posts: 440

    eumaies said:

    Their missile resistance is very high, for no obvious reason, and it is a perfect example of powercreep.

    We have other monstrous units with Scaly Skin which have 15% missile resistance, but stone trolls got 30%. It needs to stop.

    Revert to 15% missile resistance.

    Do you think chaos armoured trolls are OP? What do you think the 1100 points are paying for? It’s not power creep it’s missile resist in lieu of armour.
    Super high armour doesn't protect you from AP. It can be 10 000 armour, AP will still go through it. AP is relatively plentiful and certainly a necessity when facing Chaos.

    So, I'd certainly rate much higher the combination of 70 armour, 30% missile and 25% magic resist than just 110 armour.

    That particular combination does very well to slow down most incoming damage, which is really what you want for your regenerating units. Regenerating units hate burst damage, so if they rely on a single defensive measure that you can bypass, you're doing very well. Regenerating units that mitigate most sources of damage somewhat are more durable and it is harder to hard-counter them.

    Are Stone Trolls game breaking? No, it's like HE Rangers. But they would be good with 70 armour, 15% missile resist and 25% magic resist. No need to powercreep them. It bugs me that we had an established value for Scaly Skin in similar units. Then we get a new unit and that value is suddenly doubled? Why?

    And then we get more units like that, so missiles become less strong so we get missiles buffed... an endless cycle of power creep.
    That my dear is a slippery slope argument and ergo a mute point.

    Would you feel better if they named it Stony Skin? I don't remember anyone complaining that the White Lions get +30% missile resistance for wearing lion cloaks... nor should they!

    I propose to rename Stone Troll missile defense stony skin and no other changes to stone trolls.

    Sidebar: Corsairs are literally wearing Sea Serpent Cloaks and get no PR and no MR and no MR... It's ridiculous. I also propose corsairs get +30% missile resistance. (not slippery sloping just one more data outlier. you can prove nothing!)
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