Welcome

Please register for Total War Access to use the forums. If you're an existing user, your forum details will be merged with Total War Access if you register with the same email or username. For more information please read our FAQ’s here.

Categories

Are WE infantry in need of buffs?

BovineKingBovineKing Registered Users Posts: 204
I make a lot of posts on WE but it seems every one seems to think there infantry units are lack luster I’ve never really felt this way I like eternal guard and rangers immensely. I think Asrai spears seem decent. Dryads are ok the only unit that I dislike is wardancers but This is because several units in other rosters cost bout 200 less for similar performance. Idk I’m just wondering if WE infantry is that outclassed right now.
«1

Comments

  • Mogwai_ManMogwai_Man Registered Users Posts: 3,761
    Not really. Maybe the wardancers though.
  • ChaunChaun Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 150
    Sword wardancers could probably use a price decrease of at least 50, but their other units are technically cost efficient for their stats.
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Registered Users Posts: 3,957
    edited June 23
    It depends really.

    Most would probably agree. And there's certainly a bit of powercreep that has left them behind. Nowadays, you barely see Speardancers. When Mortal Empires were released, there was an actual push to nerf them.

    Thing is, Waywatchers are still quite strong and can win a lot of matchups on their own. They are a huge investment, but it is very hard to shut them down effectively when they're piloted by top players.

    Any buff to infantry indirectly buffs WW as it usually means more time for them to shoot. Hopefully one day we will see a proper WE rework, with more LL, all lores of magic, units, RoR, mounts, heroes... so that Waywatchers can be safely reworked, and WE get a more well rounded roster on the whole, while still keeping with the overall theme of the faction.

    Until then, I'd be cautious to buff WE infantry. The only unit that I'd outright buff right now is Treekin, and even then only in terms of speed. Bringing them to 42-48 speed would be much appreciated.

    1) it's a safe buff, as it would not buff the treeblob
    2) it would be keeping in accordance with lore and TT. (if I recall correctly, both Trolls and Treekin were M5 on TT. In game Treekin is 34, while Trolls are 54)
    3) it would make them a better blocker and better support for offensive infantry
    4) they really need buffs
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 4,034
    Tree kin are so bad
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • Pico0Pico0 Registered Users Posts: 47
    IMHO:
    - eternal guard is fine
    - WW ranger ability vs large is a bit too situational to be useful. I would give them a straight up Bvl but reduced compared to what they get in the forest. They are still in a weird position with how squishy how they to projectiles and charge but I don't really know what to do with them.
    - Dryad are fine
    - Wardancer with spear get abolutely trashed if they get charged by cavalry but this is more an issue with light infantry in general.
    - Wardancer with swords not sure rarely use them.
    - archers are fine, maybe I would like to have a small range increase for deepwood scouts with swiftshiver shards with appropriate increase in price. I struggle to find them a role that is not already filled by other archers more safely with better range.

    Treekin: In my opinion their current implementation does not work very well in a balanced WE army (not with just treeblob). I see that CA tried make them a defensive monster unit but it end up just being able to last long on their own and not defending anything.
    The issue is since they have low speed, cover less space than an eternal guard unit ( which is better at covering the rest of your army because cheaper), bad melee attack + weakish weapons strength, you have no way to force the ennemy to engage them first, and no way to punish if a unit pass them by or just pull through them. I don't get what is supposed to be their place in the WE roster, and honestly even with allarielle why would you not take high elves spearman instead ?
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 2,709
    The problem with WE infantry is not of bang per buck but the fact that all their units are super situational.

    Eternal Guard? Extremely good for their price, but they are paying for many goodies (AP, BvL) that are not used at all in their main role, which is holding the line.

    Wardancers? Great unit, but is not a main line unit. Is a flanker, and as such it's situational.

    Wildwood rangers? great unit for their price in very specific MUs. The problem is that the units it is actually cost effective against (elite GW infantry) are never used against WEs. Still, WEs need it in some MUs.

    Speardancers? Actually, I think they are great. Eternal Guard are much better, though. They could use a better AP ratio, though.

    Dryads are... ****, but that is another matter.

    Treekin are enormous ****. A grinder does not make any sense in the WE roster. Someone decided to give them every defensive trait at once, with none of the offensive ones. Huge HP pool? Check. Armour? Check. Missile resistance? check. Ward save? Check. Charge defense? Check. Insanely high MD? Check. So they are almost unkillable. But what's the point if they can't beat a single chaff unit after a whole battle? The RoR is even funnier, as someone decided that they needed ANOTHER defensive trait.



  • vizareshvizaresh Registered Users Posts: 88
    edited June 24
    Wardancers with swords beat witch elves with Martial Mastery, so I don't think they need any buffs. maybe Witch Elves needs a buff. I would like to know if you guys have other experiences.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 1,669
    vizaresh said:

    maybe Wood Elves needs a buff. I would like to know if you guys have other experiences.

    WWs and treeblobs still manage to keep WE competitive. And being popular pick despite specific playstyle. They do depend on a map quite heavy, but if map are good they are extremely hard to deal with by most factions.
  • vizareshvizaresh Registered Users Posts: 88
    tank3487 said:

    vizaresh said:

    maybe Wood Elves needs a buff. I would like to know if you guys have other experiences.

    WWs and treeblobs still manage to keep WE competitive. And being popular pick despite specific playstyle. They do depend on a map quite heavy, but if map are good they are extremely hard to deal with by most factions.
    I accidentally wrote Wood Elves instead of witch elves. I don't know how warrior priestesses of the god of death lose to followers of a trickster god.
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 11,882
    vizaresh said:

    tank3487 said:

    vizaresh said:

    maybe Wood Elves needs a buff. I would like to know if you guys have other experiences.

    WWs and treeblobs still manage to keep WE competitive. And being popular pick despite specific playstyle. They do depend on a map quite heavy, but if map are good they are extremely hard to deal with by most factions.
    I accidentally wrote Wood Elves instead of witch elves. I don't know how warrior priestesses of the god of death lose to followers of a trickster god.
    It's mostly about the Weapons and Clothing, looks like Loec is more pragmatic than Khaine. :)
  • BastileanBastilean Registered Users Posts: 440
    Treekin are supposed to be like Trolls or Rat Ogres but tougher and more armored. What CA have done is made them slow Monstrous Road Blocks with little punch. Here's where I would go with them.

    CDA all would be better. (they have roots and I assume they would hold better vs. man sized creatures than cavalry)

    Speed 45 would be better. (would feel a lot better and maybe cause impact hits) (still slow among monstrous infantry)

    MA 30 would be better.

    AP 30 (~50%) would be better. (most needed IMO)

    CB 24 like River Trolls would be better.

    +100g
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,182
    edited June 24
    :)
    Post edited by yst on
    https://imgur.com/a/Cj4b9
    Top #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
  • GriffithxiGriffithxi Registered Users Posts: 731

    I make a lot of posts on WE but it seems every one seems to think there infantry units are lack luster I’ve never really felt this way I like eternal guard and rangers immensely. I think Asrai spears seem decent. Dryads are ok the only unit that I dislike is wardancers but This is because several units in other rosters cost bout 200 less for similar performance. Idk I’m just wondering if WE infantry is that outclassed right now.

    The issue for me assessing them is the new stuff/power creep.
    So if newer units performance will be pulled back then I think WE infantry is good but if the new stuff is the new benchmark then some WE infantry will need some buffs imo.
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 4,034
    yst said:

    Ppl really need to reassess treekin. They outperform mourngul and truckload of other monster inf significantly vs chaff, also destroys rat orges. Dont think any1 actually test these guys ever. Go fight a saurus and test it with all other monsters.

    Ppl dont seem to realise what they can do which is super strange, they r among the very good monster inf range in the game. Such a safe pick vs ALL factions in game except dwf. Dunno how a hidden gem like this been badly talked about for years. I dont even feel like sharing this secret tbh.

    Tested it yap they seem to beat monsters infantry below 1000 or at 1000 points.
    But it takes forever to kill anything. Like i think most tests went up to 10 min mark.

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • TheKrakenmeisterTheKrakenmeister Registered Users Posts: 51
    yst said:

    Ppl really need to reassess treekin. They outperform mourngul and truckload of other monster inf significantly vs chaff, also destroys rat orges. Dont think any1 actually test these guys ever. Go fight a saurus and test it with all other monsters.

    Ppl dont seem to realise what they can do which is super strange, they r among the very good monster inf range in the game. Such a safe pick vs ALL factions in game except dwf. Dunno how a hidden gem like this been badly talked about for years. I dont even feel like sharing this secret tbh.

    I totally agree that they are capable in melee fights -- they need no improvement there. It's just they're so slowwwwoww for one of the most mobile factions in the game that if you want to bring them you have to commit to that slow speed with most of if not your whole army, which is very limiting.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,182

    I totally agree that they are capable in melee fights -- they need no improvement there. It's just they're so slowwwwoww for one of the most mobile factions in the game that if you want to bring them you have to commit to that slow speed with most of if not your whole army, which is very limiting.

    Bulwark friend. Imagine how much time u gave ur glade guards to fire.
    https://imgur.com/a/Cj4b9
    Top #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Registered Users Posts: 3,957
    vizaresh said:

    Wardancers with swords beat witch elves with Martial Mastery, so I don't think they need any buffs. maybe Witch Elves needs a buff. I would like to know if you guys have other experiences.

    Waradancers should win against Witch Elves because of rampage. If you can rampage things around you AND beat a pure melee unit that costs the same, that would be extremely strong.
  • BastileanBastilean Registered Users Posts: 440
    Yeah, I mean witch elves suck honestly. I do NOT use them in campaign. Corsairs are available from every port. Witch elves are terrible. If they couldn't rampage enemies they would be trash tier in MP too.
  • hanenhanen Registered Users Posts: 392
    Dryads needs some love. I think they could use some more speed as well as changing ItP to Frenzy.

    Treekin could use something similar. More speed and switch +5 MA for -5 MD.

    Speardancers would (maybe) be decent if they had the same dance as normal wardancers. Their mass is also a big weakness as they are easily cycle charged to death by the things they are meant to kill.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 4,768
    hanen said:

    Dryads needs some love. I think they could use some more speed as well as changing ItP to Frenzy.

    Treekin could use something similar. More speed and switch +5 MA for -5 MD.

    Speardancers would (maybe) be decent if they had the same dance as normal wardancers. Their mass is also a big weakness as they are easily cycle charged to death by the things they are meant to kill.

    Agreed on these. Maybe treekin are fine though, but whatever. I think both Asrai and normal wardances should have their dances redesigned. It would fix both these units and make them more flavorful at the same time...
  • outrage4outrage4 Registered Users Posts: 54
    Tree kin are not bad on their own they just don't fit the roster at all ( unless its tree blob).

    I would increase thier speed and slightly decrease MD to make rush/kite builds stronger while slightly nerfing tree blobs.
    vizaresh said:

    Wardancers with swords beat witch elves with Martial Mastery, so I don't think they need any buffs. maybe Witch Elves needs a buff. I would like to know if you guys have other experiences.

    People are still confusing Witch elves with similar units in the same price range. Their whole purpuse is to rampage things and they should not be used the same way as berserks or wardansers neither should they be compared to those units.
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 2,709
    yst said:

    I totally agree that they are capable in melee fights -- they need no improvement there. It's just they're so slowwwwoww for one of the most mobile factions in the game that if you want to bring them you have to commit to that slow speed with most of if not your whole army, which is very limiting.

    Bulwark friend. Imagine how much time u gave ur glade guards to fire.
    Very little? They can simply ignore treekin without taking real damage, plus your frontline is going to be pathetically short.


    The only point would be stopping chariots and SEMs and the like, but again, 36 speed, and no ap nor ma to punish said chariots once stopped.
  • MrProsMrPros Registered Users Posts: 24
    I would change wardancers active ability, i think removing the debuff part would do them justice but its only campaing player opinion.

    I mean if they are that skillfull with blades why they are weaker when performing a dance that boost their skills in combat
  • vizareshvizaresh Registered Users Posts: 88
    edited June 24

    vizaresh said:

    Wardancers with swords beat witch elves with Martial Mastery, so I don't think they need any buffs. maybe Witch Elves needs a buff. I would like to know if you guys have other experiences.

    Waradancers should win against Witch Elves because of rampage. If you can rampage things around you AND beat a pure melee unit that costs the same, that would be extremely strong.
    what you are saying is true, but the rampage mechanic has changed but the cost did not. they are a very vulnerable unit, so expecting them to do better in melee is not a weird thing.

    WE vs WD have less:

    225 HP
    10 armor
    2 speed
    2 MA
    12 MD
    4 WS
    a Defensive ability

    but have 2 more leadership and MM.

    IIRC WE poison used to work all the time, but right now they are able to rampage a damaged unit 2 times and I don't know if that's worth all the stats they are missing.
    I do think Witch Elves are in need of a slight buff.

    Wardancers, on the other hand, do what they are supposed to do which is killing low armor infantry units.
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 2,709
    vizaresh said:

    vizaresh said:

    Wardancers with swords beat witch elves with Martial Mastery, so I don't think they need any buffs. maybe Witch Elves needs a buff. I would like to know if you guys have other experiences.

    Waradancers should win against Witch Elves because of rampage. If you can rampage things around you AND beat a pure melee unit that costs the same, that would be extremely strong.
    what you are saying is true, but the rampage mechanic has changed but the cost did not. they are a very vulnerable unit, so expecting them to do better in melee is not a weird thing.

    WE vs WD have less:

    225 HP
    10 armor
    2 speed
    2 MA
    12 MD
    4 WS
    a Defensive ability

    but have 2 more leadership and MM.

    IIRC WE poison used to work all the time, but right now they are able to rampage a damaged unit 2 times and I don't know if that's worth all the stats they are missing.
    I do think Witch Elves are in need of a slight buff.

    Wardancers, on the other hand, do what they are supposed to do which is killing low armor infantry units.
    IIRC, rampage always triggered at certain tresholds and had an specific duration.
  • WitchbladeWitchblade Registered Users Posts: 594
    +3 speed for Treekin
    +100 mass for speardancers

    Rest is fine. WE aren't supposed to have super cost-efficient infantry.
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Registered Users Posts: 3,957
    Why just +3? They'd still be slower than Animated Hulks, who are basically large variants of zombies, one of the slowest units in the game.

    I checked and Trolls had movement 6, which translated to 54 speed in game. Treekin had movement 5, which got translated to speed 34?

    46 speed is perfectly reasonable.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 1,722

    Why just +3? They'd still be slower than Animated Hulks, who are basically large variants of zombies, one of the slowest units in the game.

    I checked and Trolls had movement 6, which translated to 54 speed in game. Treekin had movement 5, which got translated to speed 34?

    46 speed is perfectly reasonable.

    yeah thats a good speed, same as wardancers, but just making them a blocker is not enough, they need to be able to do some damage.
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 4,034
    edited June 25
    Loupi_ said:

    Why just +3? They'd still be slower than Animated Hulks, who are basically large variants of zombies, one of the slowest units in the game.

    I checked and Trolls had movement 6, which translated to 54 speed in game. Treekin had movement 5, which got translated to speed 34?

    46 speed is perfectly reasonable.

    yeah thats a good speed, same as wardancers, but just making them a blocker is not enough, they need to be able to do some damage.
    they do kill other monster infantry around their price range with exception of skin wolfs. but it takes them close to 7 minutes in average to beat a such unit!
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • KurnothHunterKurnothHunter Registered Users Posts: 356
    Loupi_ said:

    Why just +3? They'd still be slower than Animated Hulks, who are basically large variants of zombies, one of the slowest units in the game.

    I checked and Trolls had movement 6, which translated to 54 speed in game. Treekin had movement 5, which got translated to speed 34?

    46 speed is perfectly reasonable.

    yeah thats a good speed, same as wardancers, but just making them a blocker is not enough, they need to be able to do some damage.
    at this stage of the game they would be perfect as road blocker

    otherwise, waywatchers will need a nerf
Sign In or Register to comment.