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Pistoliers (what's wrong with their pistols?)

BastileanBastilean Registered Users Posts: 440
Has there been a discussion about why Pistoliers are 'poor against armor'? I don't like it I tell you. They are musket ball firing pistols not buckshot! On TT they had armor piercing and higher strength just like the handgun rifles.

Personally, I would be happy to reduce the rate of fire to 12 seconds per shot at the benefit of AP missile shots if a compensation is in order.

Any reason they are not AP?

Comments

  • TheKrakenmeisterTheKrakenmeister Registered Users Posts: 51
    Bastilean said:

    Has there been a discussion about why Pistoliers are 'poor against armor'? I don't like it I tell you. They are musket ball firing pistols not buckshot! On TT they had armor piercing and higher strength just like the handgun rifles.

    Personally, I would be happy to reduce the rate of fire to 12 seconds per shot at the benefit of AP missile shots if a compensation is in order.

    Any reason they are not AP?

    For roster diversity. It's nice having options.
  • FrookFrook Registered Users Posts: 153
    Pistols weren't very good at penetrating armour because of low muzzle velocity of musketballs launched with less black powder coming out of short barrels. Hence "bullet-proof" breastplates that became popular during the proliferation of pistol wielding cavalry. They could still penetrate armour in point blank range and were used for this purpose but it's hard to simulate this in a game like total war in a reasonable manner.

    Also for roster diversity.
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Registered Users Posts: 1,549
    It's really only for roster diversity. Theres no justification otherwise, especailly when one looks at stuff like DE crossbows being AP...
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  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,182
    Really would like them to get the crossbow treatment. Increase ap, slower reload
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  • BastileanBastilean Registered Users Posts: 440
    The pistoliers were my favorite unit in Dark Omen. In TW they aren't really worth looking at side ways. I played a lot of empire but never found a place for them. Do people use them? How do they get used?
  • mightygloinmightygloin Registered Users Posts: 2,570
    edited June 24
    Well Brace of Pistols were AP on TT with half the range of Repeaters of Outriders and same S but who are we to question the infinite wisdom of c a .

    If you read Brunner books, he also used to pierce armour with his surprise pistol shots.
  • BastileanBastilean Registered Users Posts: 440
    Also, the ROR look awful statistically. They cost 40% more and only do 25% more damage and are 15% more survivable at best. Not a good 'super' purchase on an already terrible unit. They need stalk and/or AP and/or -100g or some combination.


    Outlaw Pistoliers are far cooler as a unique pistol group because they were basically highway men (rich robbers) who decided to join up since the undead insurgence thing needed some undoing. They aren't a prim and proper pistolier group. http://en.dark-omen.org/troops/empire/outlaw-pistoliers.html

    When you hit the level this RoR becomes available you could have a dilemma about whether to hang the highway men (+3 public order) or not (-3 public order) which would determine whether they become recruitable.
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 1,847
    Wyvern2 said:

    It's really only for roster diversity. Theres no justification otherwise, especailly when one looks at stuff like DE crossbows being AP...

    Worse is that they are repeater crossbows too. Really bad ap
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 2,474
    reas they are not ap is beacuse outriders are AP and they would need a hefty pric eincrease if they got AP in their current state.
  • GreenColouredGreenColoured Registered Users Posts: 651
    Remember how CA effed up the White Lions of Chrase, made them utter trash and laughing stock of the HE roster, and then shrugged their shoulders when everyone was against it?


    That.
  • outrage4outrage4 Registered Users Posts: 54
    Yes there is a reason why 500 gold 360 fire whilst moving skirmish cav doesn't have AP.

    Empire already have skirmish cav with AP so i don't know why whould you even bother with TT rules here.
  • The_real_FAUSTThe_real_FAUST Registered Users Posts: 770
    Yes in TT they were strength 4 AP.

    They also had furious charge which made them use pistols in the first round of combat.

    It would translate to having AP as a charge bonus thay then falls away.

    They aren't particularly well translated from TT to Tw:WH.

    You could make them a 600 -700 gold AP Pistol cav with a higher charge bonus ir you wanted to be true
  • The_real_FAUSTThe_real_FAUST Registered Users Posts: 770
    But then again Emp haven't got their gunpowder DLC yet

    Engineers,
    Long rifles
    Mechanical steed
    Pigeon bombs
    Outriders with repeater pistols
    Stank variations
    Engineer LH
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 6,370

    But then again Emp haven't got their gunpowder DLC yet

    Engineers,
    Long rifles
    Mechanical steed
    Pigeon bombs
    Outriders with repeater pistols
    Stank variations
    Engineer LH

    Jezzails for Empire. Let's see it happen :D

    Not against the rest of the list though, especially Engineers had cool models in TT.
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Registered Users Posts: 8,986
    Hochland long rifles will happen imo
    It needs to be pointed out that what people call "cheese" is just playing the game the way it actually exists not in some fictional way they think it is supposed to work.
  • mightygloinmightygloin Registered Users Posts: 2,570

    Hochland long rifles will happen imo

    Mother of god with all the powercreep trend i bet they will be released with 365 range or something and mow down anything for months be it infantry or SEM.
  • PussyslayerXDDPussyslayerXDD Registered Users Posts: 40

    Hochland long rifles will happen imo

    Mother of god with all the powercreep trend i bet they will be released with 365 range or something and mow down anything for months be it infantry or SEM.
    I'd be more worried about them supplanting the hellblaster volley gun
    Imo they ll make them jezz range but higher damage or less cost

    For the main topic, id rather have em with better combat stats or higher charge bonus to deal with chaff skirmishers like goblins or skinks.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 24,666

    Hochland long rifles will happen imo

    Mother of god with all the powercreep trend i bet they will be released with 365 range or something and mow down anything for months be it infantry or SEM.
    I'd be more worried about them supplanting the hellblaster volley gun
    Imo they ll make them jezz range but higher damage or less cost

    For the main topic, id rather have em with better combat stats or higher charge bonus to deal with chaff skirmishers like goblins or skinks.
    They shouldn't have Jezzail range. Jezzails have aiming sights, are longer and have a quasi-pod to rest on, making for smoother handling. At best they should have the same range as the Deck Gunners.

  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 4,034

    Hochland long rifles will happen imo

    Mother of god with all the powercreep trend i bet they will be released with 365 range or something and mow down anything for months be it infantry or SEM.
    I'd be more worried about them supplanting the hellblaster volley gun
    Imo they ll make them jezz range but higher damage or less cost

    For the main topic, id rather have em with better combat stats or higher charge bonus to deal with chaff skirmishers like goblins or skinks.
    They shouldn't have Jezzail range. Jezzails have aiming sights, are longer and have a quasi-pod to rest on, making for smoother handling. At best they should have the same range as the Deck Gunners.
    Long rifle had tripod and sights if remember from what people shared.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • PussyslayerXDDPussyslayerXDD Registered Users Posts: 40

    Hochland long rifles will happen imo

    Mother of god with all the powercreep trend i bet they will be released with 365 range or something and mow down anything for months be it infantry or SEM.
    I'd be more worried about them supplanting the hellblaster volley gun
    Imo they ll make them jezz range but higher damage or less cost

    For the main topic, id rather have em with better combat stats or higher charge bonus to deal with chaff skirmishers like goblins or skinks.
    They shouldn't have Jezzail range. Jezzails have aiming sights, are longer and have a quasi-pod to rest on, making for smoother handling. At best they should have the same range as the Deck Gunners.
    Long rifle had tripod and sights if remember from what people shared.

    They do have em, but since they re shorter i guess longer range than droppers and lower than jezz

  • The_real_FAUSTThe_real_FAUST Registered Users Posts: 770
    Long rifle iirc was 36 inch range

    It's a sniper rifle for all intents and purposes
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 8,905
    was on unit champion and engeneer only tough so no way a whole unit of this.
  • mightygloinmightygloin Registered Users Posts: 2,570

    was on unit champion and engeneer only tough so no way a whole unit of this.

    But but.. there are many examples of this in the game already. For example Irondrake Torpedoes.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 1,669
    Bastilean said:

    Has there been a discussion about why Pistoliers are 'poor against armor'?

    Short barrel mean low muzzle velocity and as result low energy to the bullet. I.e. low damage behind armor and low penetration. It is quite unrealistic to make them AP.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 1,669
    edited July 5


    Mother of god with all the powercreep trend i bet they will be released with 365 range or something and mow down anything for months be it infantry or SEM.

    Unlikely that they would be better than jezzails. They do not use warp stone for bullets. Probably something between them and deck guys.
  • mightygloinmightygloin Registered Users Posts: 2,570
    tank3487 said:


    Mother of god with all the powercreep trend i bet they will be released with 365 range or something and mow down anything for months be it infantry or SEM.

    Unlikely that they would be better than jezzails. They do not use warp stone for bullets. Probably something between them and deck guys.
    Supposedly sure, but powercreep doesn't care about nuances like that. Also Jezzails still don't have magical damage despite using warpstone bullets :p
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