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The Problem of Buffstacking

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  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 25,186
    edited June 26

    A boring game is a game in need of fixes. Even CA noticed this, hence the PG beta adressing it in part.

    As for removing red line skills being necessary to mark progression, that's a false premise because buffing troops to have
    200+% of their starting stats is not a necessary part of the gameplay loop nor is it a particularly fun one since it removes a big portion of strategy out of what purports to be a strategy game. What this game does wrong is getting simpler and simpler the more you progress with less and less mechanics mattering. As I said, PO, growth and money become non-factors and so does preserving troops and army deployment eventually. There's simply not much to do other than grinding in long strings of meaningless battles, expansion, settlement development and army building becomes rote.

    Why settle for a gameplay loop that becomes this stale? Wouldn't it be better if the game became more instead of less complex over time? Making buffs rarer and more conditional would mean those you actually get are more meaningful.


    You misunderstand, I was not saying "How do you mark progression" as a "AHA GOTCHA!" I was genuinely asking what you would suggest as an alternative to differentiate a seasoned level 40 Commander from a newly founded level 1 newbie?

    As for it being a boring game, well, that is obviously an opinion. I loved the PG Beta but I didn't notice it toning down any buffs, it slowed down growth and increased costs, which i believe to be a good idea, to try and put more onus and value on individual armies and troops in your service rather than just have instant, cheap, throwaway assets. But the powercreep was still just as prevalent as it is in Vanilla.

    Also, and i admit I am kinda into devils advocate territory here, Surely the streamlining that occurs as one transitions into lategame is exactly there to facilitate the management of a larger lategame empire. Otherwise lategame turntimes would number in the hours rather than minutes?
    The PG beta toning down growth and PO bonuses as well as increasing recruitment cost was toning down buffs. In vanilla the higher tier your settlement is, the more growth and PO you get which is frankly quite stupid since that only serves to accelerate the snowballing. The PG beta also removed that dreadful autoconversion mechanic that made conquest way too quick and easy. It wasn't perfect, but it was a good first step.

    The lategame streamlining only serves to make the game more boring because, as I said, you have less to do and less to mull over than in the beginning. How can that be exciting? There's a reason so many people stop playing campaigns after about a 100 turns.

    Yeah sorry, but I'd find it more exciting if I had to actually mange my empire and most of my actions weren't just rote routine. Did you not notice that by midgame you stop thinking about what buildings to buy and improve because you have practically unlimited funds?

    I'm using the PG beta reborn mod in conjunction with a few others that tone down the flood of bonuses and let me tell you, having to actually manage my resources beats the mindless grinding of vanilla by several country miles.

    But before you say it, MODS ARE NOT THE ANSWER! Mods, especially really intrusive ones like those I use can be disontinued on the drop of a head since modders are not obligated to support them, so any patch could be the end of it. They also happen to cause conflicts because they have to change to many things at once and certain combinations I'd like I can't use because the game crashes if I activate them at the same time.

  • EthorinEthorin Registered Users Posts: 283
    Nah, the answer is learning how to mod!

    I've been told that the tools are pretty easy to use...

    I'm not sure where they are though...
  • SherrabSherrab Registered Users Posts: 95
    i find it fun power creeping your doom stack with different LL and finding ways to break the game. i not particularly fond of the thought of slowing the game down ever more. campaigns can already go on for 18+ hours.


    if you are complaining about buff stacking making the game too easy , i assume you are playing on legendary/legendary?
  • Nitros14Nitros14 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,864
    Sherrab said:

    i find it fun power creeping your doom stack with different LL and finding ways to break the game. i not particularly fond of the thought of slowing the game down ever more. campaigns can already go on for 18+ hours.


    if you are complaining about buff stacking making the game too easy , i assume you are playing on legendary/legendary?

    The reason that late game campaigns are boring is because you're so broken the AI can't possibly defeat you and victory conditions are stupidly grindy.

    That's not a good reason to not fix the game.

    Yes I play on legendary.
  • SherrabSherrab Registered Users Posts: 95
    Nitros14 said:

    Sherrab said:

    i find it fun power creeping your doom stack with different LL and finding ways to break the game. i not particularly fond of the thought of slowing the game down ever more. campaigns can already go on for 18+ hours.


    if you are complaining about buff stacking making the game too easy , i assume you are playing on legendary/legendary?

    The reason that late game campaigns are boring is because you're so broken the AI can't possibly defeat you and victory conditions are stupidly grindy.

    That's not a good reason to not fix the game.

    Yes I play on legendary.
    battle difficulty legendary ? the extra buffs on top of the normal ones should balance it out

    but im casual vh/normal player , what do i know

    imo ranged/sem spam comps being optimal and meta gaming make the game more pointless and boring then snowballing with buffs. the ai cheats promotes braindead gameplay from the player to win. players rely on gimmicky magic builds to 1 shot = dumb, afk spamming missiles in a corner of the map = dumb , sem spamming and afk after the first click= dumb.

  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 25,186
    edited June 26
    Legendary is just as boring as the rest, actually even more so because it limits your options even harder.

    I repeat, the problem is that the game's mechanics stop being relevant one by one not all that long into the campaign. Money, public order, growth, replenishment and recruitment are no longer things you need to worry about, it's just mindlessly spamming armies and grinding it out with the AI.

    All TWs have this problem, but it's especially pronounced here simply because CA simplified things that didn't need to be simplified, like autoconverting captured settlements and homogenizing after-conquest effects. In R2 or TWA for example taking settlements not of your culture could become costly and require guarding the settlement because the PO penalties could be quite high and converting took time and money. In TWWH for whatever reason any race has immediately full use of whatever region it captured and the penalties are all the same, no matter the combination. High Elves can take over Greenskin hovels and exploit them right away or even recruit elite units from the place that only moments ago was just a bunch of mud huts and sticks.

    Why? Warhammer is probably the one place where such shenanigans should be SLOWER than in other TWs because we are talking about different species.

  • Mogwai_ManMogwai_Man Registered Users Posts: 3,833
    Sherrab said:

    Nitros14 said:

    Sherrab said:

    i find it fun power creeping your doom stack with different LL and finding ways to break the game. i not particularly fond of the thought of slowing the game down ever more. campaigns can already go on for 18+ hours.


    if you are complaining about buff stacking making the game too easy , i assume you are playing on legendary/legendary?

    The reason that late game campaigns are boring is because you're so broken the AI can't possibly defeat you and victory conditions are stupidly grindy.

    That's not a good reason to not fix the game.

    Yes I play on legendary.
    battle difficulty legendary ? the extra buffs on top of the normal ones should balance it out

    but im casual vh/normal player , what do i know

    imo ranged/sem spam comps being optimal and meta gaming make the game more pointless and boring then snowballing with buffs. the ai cheats promotes braindead gameplay from the player to win. players rely on gimmicky magic builds to 1 shot = dumb, afk spamming missiles in a corner of the map = dumb , sem spamming and afk after the first click= dumb.

    There is no legendary battle difficulty. The highest battle difficulty is very hard.
  • psychoakpsychoak Registered Users Posts: 3,093
    Grom is crazy, sure, but it's a symptom of the disease.

    1 point of MA or MD is worth about 3% on average.

    A skill that increases a unit's MA by 3 is a 9% increase.

    On the other hand, a WS increase is it's percentage. 12 points of armor on a low armor unit, is less than half it's value in damage mitigation. Skills are balanced? Not even for individual characters.

    Stacking 15 different buffs to get super goblins isn't really the issue. Why are there so many buffs available to start with? Why are the buffs so big? It's not that Goblins get too many buffs, it's that the game has **** all for balance.

    Goblins get 8 MA and 8 MD, plus 12% ranged damage and 20% ammunition from 3 points. Bretonnians give 8 leadership and 8 MD to commoners for the same points. To get 10% reload and 20% ammunition, they need another 3.
    The personal improvements to lords may combine to a higher total, but when you compare what a lord can give just themselves, for 3 points, outside of mounts, unit buffs are the obvious choice. The typical 3/5/9 MA and MD skills for lords, give less points to that single entity, than the 3 point goblin upgrade gives to basically a whole army.

    Things like Talon of Kurnous stacking for WE, or Shadowdart for Shades resulting in super stacks of ranged, are the same problem.

    The disease is zero serious consideration for balance. You could do better with a dart board in many areas.

    Lords across factions vary greatly, skills vary even more greatly between various areas of improvement, and extra mechanics compound all the issues by simply adding new layers of poorly balanced boosts. By the time you finish combining everything with the new special mechanics added by a DLC, you've got a 7 layer **** cake.

    One unit only has 3 layers, another has 5, the layers are all different thicknesses, and the whole thing is just a cluster **** of inedible crap. But it's all good, we've got monster mounts.
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