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Cauldron of blood

GriffithxiGriffithxi Registered Users Posts: 731
Recently in the total war warhammer 2 total waagh update

"Witch Elves on Cauldron of blood and Bloodwrack Shrine:
Riders now use corrected Weapon Profiles, so their daggers will no longer deal the same damage as the vehicle does when ramming into enemies"

So I tried to find the proper units to test this on. Didn't want to test it against anti large units that should be theoretically designed to counter it.
Its an expensive unit at 1400 base so I wanted something relatively high in cost that it would maybe seem worth bringing this unit to counter.

First I tried wildwood rangers and brought their cost to 1200 with chevrons but they decidedly beat the anti infantry cauldron that had a reading in game saying this is a low threat target for the cauldron.

I next tried the 1500 norsca giant against these wildwood rangers and the giant won.

Next I tried marauder champions with great weapons 1100 cost (an infantry unit most people think are not very good) and they decidedly beat the 1400 anti infantry cauldron.

Still looking for a relatively expensive infantry unit for this new cauldron to counter I moved down to
1000 point marauder champions with axe and shield thinking the cauldron would surely beat this.
nope they beat the new cauldron too.

Then I went back to the wildwood rangers again and lowered the chev to 1000 nope they still beat the new cauldron.

Now I took all the chevron off and went with base 900 wildwood rangers really thinking at least it can beat these.
Nope.

TLDR So far I have not found an expensive infantry unit the new rebalanced cauldron of blood can beat.
Surely if this is going to be the new balance for the unit it should have a price decrease?

Comments

  • WitchbladeWitchblade Registered Users Posts: 594
    Yes, it's pretty lackluster for its price. It's worse than a noble on chariot for most purposes, especially killing infantry. It does have a good buff, but that's made mostly redundant by the newer super AoE buff/debuff cauldron.

    -100 gold would be my suggestion.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 6,370
    it used to be OP in monster duels so I'd say this is a good change.
  • vizareshvizaresh Registered Users Posts: 88
    Green0 said:

    it used to be OP in monster duels so I'd say this is a good change.

    So no suggestion to make it good against things it should be good against? like infantry?
    the change is good even when it can't even win against 800g white lions?
    these HE fans are something else.

    anyways I think Cauldron needs
    more mass
    more speed
    faster turn rate
    and more damage

    they were never a good unit, the last patch made them practically useless. please fix them.

  • GriffithxiGriffithxi Registered Users Posts: 731

    Yes, it's pretty lackluster for its price. It's worse than a noble on chariot for most purposes, especially killing infantry. It does have a good buff, but that's made mostly redundant by the newer super AoE buff/debuff cauldron.

    -100 gold would be my suggestion.

    Assuming the change wont be reversed I think the cauldron might need a bit of a redesign.
    It performs closer to 1200 doom flayers in melee but without AP attacks/34 less armor in melee and with waaaay less mobility/ability to cycle charge.

    If no redesign then a price closer to 600 for chariot upgrade / 1200 for base hag on chariot base seems closer to me right now. Still performing more tests tho.
  • outrage4outrage4 Registered Users Posts: 54
    Claudron was complete trash before this change but i guess it was reasonable to fix damage of daggers.

    The unit is supposed to be anti-infantry but realistically it is weak to everything: artilery, cav, missile infantry, monstrous infantry, magic missiles (despite magic and missile resist), Single entities and even mid tier AP infantry.
  • GriffithxiGriffithxi Registered Users Posts: 731
    edited June 27
    Funny enough a 1200 base cost noble on chariot did much better in sustained combat against marauder champions (1000) than the death hag on cauldron of blood 1400.

    1200 Noble with AP and higher weapon damage in sustained combat took them to about 10% health in sustained combat and the noble has 78 speed 74 charge bonus giving it a much better ability to cycle charge

    1400 Death hag on cauldron without AP seemingly built for sustained combat took them to 45% health and has 50 speed 34 charge bonus.

    1400 plague priest on furnace performed as I would expect a unit like this to perform and beat the 1000 price marauders in sustained combat.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 1,722
    vizaresh said:

    Green0 said:

    it used to be OP in monster duels so I'd say this is a good change.

    So no suggestion to make it good against things it should be good against? like infantry?
    the change is good even when it can't even win against 800g white lions?
    these HE fans are something else.

    anyways I think Cauldron needs
    more mass
    more speed
    faster turn rate
    and more damage

    they were never a good unit, the last patch made them practically useless. please fix them.

    lol immediately takes shot at HE, pretty pathetic
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 1,722
    Cauldrons/bloodwrack shrine, inlcuding hellebrons cauldron should do magic attacks. DE dont have many ways to do magic damage in melee, so it would help in a number of cases (vs HE, brets, VC, WE for example).

    Their speed is ok, but the AP is strangely low, so I would increase that too. Though there is the hidden stat with the dagger throwing attacks to consider.
  • outrage4outrage4 Registered Users Posts: 54
    edited June 27
    Loupi_ said:

    Cauldrons/bloodwrack shrine, inlcuding hellebrons cauldron should do magic attacks. DE dont have many ways to do magic damage in melee, so it would help in a number of cases (vs HE, brets, VC, WE for example).

    Their speed is ok, but the AP is strangely low, so I would increase that too. Though there is the hidden stat with the dagger throwing attacks to consider.

    Well i don't think DE struggle with magic damage at all since you can take 2 soulstealers for cav blobs against factions you mentioned if thats what you mean.

    Either way claudron is not capable of fighting with cavalry with or without magic damage so i don't see how that helps. It would also make claudrons completely useless vs dwafs and silverin guard still exist. I also don't see how that improves claudron against VC.

    And usually such awkward SE's don't work well agaisnt WE because they get shot to death too quikly.

    I don't think magic damage would make this unit any better.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 1,722
    outrage4 said:

    Loupi_ said:

    Cauldrons/bloodwrack shrine, inlcuding hellebrons cauldron should do magic attacks. DE dont have many ways to do magic damage in melee, so it would help in a number of cases (vs HE, brets, VC, WE for example).

    Their speed is ok, but the AP is strangely low, so I would increase that too. Though there is the hidden stat with the dagger throwing attacks to consider.

    Well i don't think DE struggle with magic damage at all since you can take 2 soulstealers for cav blobs against factions you mentioned if thats what you mean.

    Either way claudron is not capable of fighting with cavalry with or without magic damage so i don't see how that helps. It would also make claudrons completely useless vs dwafs and silverin guard still exist. I also don't see how that improves claudron against VC.

    And usually such awkward SE's don't work well agaisnt WE because they get shot to death too quikly.

    I don't think magic damage would make this unit any better.
    thats not what i mean, magic attack would help vs double banshee type builds, and other SE with phys resist. Its for duelling purposes not for cav blobs
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 1,847
    DE does have fire lore to give temporary magic weapon

    but i do think does shrines need a buff.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 6,370
    edited June 27
    vizaresh said:

    Green0 said:

    it used to be OP in monster duels so I'd say this is a good change.

    So no suggestion to make it good against things it should be good against? like infantry?
    the change is good even when it can't even win against 800g white lions?
    these HE fans are something else.

    anyways I think Cauldron needs
    more mass
    more speed
    faster turn rate
    and more damage

    they were never a good unit, the last patch made them practically useless. please fix them.

    yeah forgive me for nerfing the Cauldrons, #highelfed

    I have a personal line with CA balance team and a crusade against DE.

    Also if you mean that the Cauldron loses to White Lions when unmicro’d, well it’s a chariot idk why it would win the goal is to cycle charge.

    When I did testing, Death Hag on Cauldron had some bizarre results such as beating a Feral Eagle 1v1 time ago and did so in like 10-20s. Clearly something was not normal about how MA, CB and WS worked on this unit.

    Sorry again for nerfing DE though, only HE can be tier 1 hehe.
  • GriffithxiGriffithxi Registered Users Posts: 731
    Green0 said:

    vizaresh said:

    Green0 said:

    it used to be OP in monster duels so I'd say this is a good change.

    So no suggestion to make it good against things it should be good against? like infantry?
    the change is good even when it can't even win against 800g white lions?
    these HE fans are something else.

    anyways I think Cauldron needs
    more mass
    more speed
    faster turn rate
    and more damage

    they were never a good unit, the last patch made them practically useless. please fix them.

    yeah forgive me for nerfing the Cauldrons, #highelfed

    I have a personal line with CA balance team and a crusade against DE.

    Also if you mean that the Cauldron loses to White Lions when unmicro’d, well it’s a chariot idk why it would win the goal is to cycle charge.

    When I did testing, Death Hag on Cauldron had some bizarre results such as beating a Feral Eagle 1v1 time ago and did so in like 10-20s. Clearly something was not normal about how MA, CB and WS worked on this unit.

    Sorry again for nerfing DE though, only HE can be tier 1 hehe.
    I don't think a unit with a main ability to make it rampage for 42 seconds at a time, 50 speed and 35 charge bonus is particularly suited to or designed for effective cycle charging.
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 4,033

    Green0 said:

    vizaresh said:

    Green0 said:

    it used to be OP in monster duels so I'd say this is a good change.

    So no suggestion to make it good against things it should be good against? like infantry?
    the change is good even when it can't even win against 800g white lions?
    these HE fans are something else.

    anyways I think Cauldron needs
    more mass
    more speed
    faster turn rate
    and more damage

    they were never a good unit, the last patch made them practically useless. please fix them.

    yeah forgive me for nerfing the Cauldrons, #highelfed

    I have a personal line with CA balance team and a crusade against DE.

    Also if you mean that the Cauldron loses to White Lions when unmicro’d, well it’s a chariot idk why it would win the goal is to cycle charge.

    When I did testing, Death Hag on Cauldron had some bizarre results such as beating a Feral Eagle 1v1 time ago and did so in like 10-20s. Clearly something was not normal about how MA, CB and WS worked on this unit.

    Sorry again for nerfing DE though, only HE can be tier 1 hehe.
    I don't think a unit with a main ability to make it rampage for 42 seconds at a time, 50 speed and 35 charge bonus is particularly suited to or designed for effective cycle charging.
    no but i don't see why you can't have infantry support it. bleak swords are 450 correct?
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • GriffithxiGriffithxi Registered Users Posts: 731

    Green0 said:

    vizaresh said:

    Green0 said:

    it used to be OP in monster duels so I'd say this is a good change.

    So no suggestion to make it good against things it should be good against? like infantry?
    the change is good even when it can't even win against 800g white lions?
    these HE fans are something else.

    anyways I think Cauldron needs
    more mass
    more speed
    faster turn rate
    and more damage

    they were never a good unit, the last patch made them practically useless. please fix them.

    yeah forgive me for nerfing the Cauldrons, #highelfed

    I have a personal line with CA balance team and a crusade against DE.

    Also if you mean that the Cauldron loses to White Lions when unmicro’d, well it’s a chariot idk why it would win the goal is to cycle charge.

    When I did testing, Death Hag on Cauldron had some bizarre results such as beating a Feral Eagle 1v1 time ago and did so in like 10-20s. Clearly something was not normal about how MA, CB and WS worked on this unit.

    Sorry again for nerfing DE though, only HE can be tier 1 hehe.
    I don't think a unit with a main ability to make it rampage for 42 seconds at a time, 50 speed and 35 charge bonus is particularly suited to or designed for effective cycle charging.
    no but i don't see why you can't have infantry support it. bleak swords are 450 correct?
    Yes bleakswords could support it. Do you think it is balanced as it currently is because bleakswords could support it?
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 4,033

    Green0 said:

    vizaresh said:

    Green0 said:

    it used to be OP in monster duels so I'd say this is a good change.

    So no suggestion to make it good against things it should be good against? like infantry?
    the change is good even when it can't even win against 800g white lions?
    these HE fans are something else.

    anyways I think Cauldron needs
    more mass
    more speed
    faster turn rate
    and more damage

    they were never a good unit, the last patch made them practically useless. please fix them.

    yeah forgive me for nerfing the Cauldrons, #highelfed

    I have a personal line with CA balance team and a crusade against DE.

    Also if you mean that the Cauldron loses to White Lions when unmicro’d, well it’s a chariot idk why it would win the goal is to cycle charge.

    When I did testing, Death Hag on Cauldron had some bizarre results such as beating a Feral Eagle 1v1 time ago and did so in like 10-20s. Clearly something was not normal about how MA, CB and WS worked on this unit.

    Sorry again for nerfing DE though, only HE can be tier 1 hehe.
    I don't think a unit with a main ability to make it rampage for 42 seconds at a time, 50 speed and 35 charge bonus is particularly suited to or designed for effective cycle charging.
    no but i don't see why you can't have infantry support it. bleak swords are 450 correct?
    Yes bleakswords could support it. Do you think it is balanced as it currently is because bleakswords could support it?
    yes i think they are balanced as support chariot. may be could get a cost reduction
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • GriffithxiGriffithxi Registered Users Posts: 731
    edited June 27

    Green0 said:

    vizaresh said:

    Green0 said:

    it used to be OP in monster duels so I'd say this is a good change.

    So no suggestion to make it good against things it should be good against? like infantry?
    the change is good even when it can't even win against 800g white lions?
    these HE fans are something else.

    anyways I think Cauldron needs
    more mass
    more speed
    faster turn rate
    and more damage

    they were never a good unit, the last patch made them practically useless. please fix them.

    yeah forgive me for nerfing the Cauldrons, #highelfed

    I have a personal line with CA balance team and a crusade against DE.

    Also if you mean that the Cauldron loses to White Lions when unmicro’d, well it’s a chariot idk why it would win the goal is to cycle charge.

    When I did testing, Death Hag on Cauldron had some bizarre results such as beating a Feral Eagle 1v1 time ago and did so in like 10-20s. Clearly something was not normal about how MA, CB and WS worked on this unit.

    Sorry again for nerfing DE though, only HE can be tier 1 hehe.
    I don't think a unit with a main ability to make it rampage for 42 seconds at a time, 50 speed and 35 charge bonus is particularly suited to or designed for effective cycle charging.
    no but i don't see why you can't have infantry support it. bleak swords are 450 correct?
    Yes bleakswords could support it. Do you think it is balanced as it currently is because bleakswords could support it?
    yes i think they are balanced as support chariot. may be could get a cost reduction
    Have you used them since the patch?
    What can they cost effectively beat/take on with 1 support infantry and counter effectively?
    Post edited by Griffithxi on
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 6,370

    Green0 said:

    vizaresh said:

    Green0 said:

    it used to be OP in monster duels so I'd say this is a good change.

    So no suggestion to make it good against things it should be good against? like infantry?
    the change is good even when it can't even win against 800g white lions?
    these HE fans are something else.

    anyways I think Cauldron needs
    more mass
    more speed
    faster turn rate
    and more damage

    they were never a good unit, the last patch made them practically useless. please fix them.

    yeah forgive me for nerfing the Cauldrons, #highelfed

    I have a personal line with CA balance team and a crusade against DE.

    Also if you mean that the Cauldron loses to White Lions when unmicro’d, well it’s a chariot idk why it would win the goal is to cycle charge.

    When I did testing, Death Hag on Cauldron had some bizarre results such as beating a Feral Eagle 1v1 time ago and did so in like 10-20s. Clearly something was not normal about how MA, CB and WS worked on this unit.

    Sorry again for nerfing DE though, only HE can be tier 1 hehe.
    I don't think a unit with a main ability to make it rampage for 42 seconds at a time, 50 speed and 35 charge bonus is particularly suited to or designed for effective cycle charging.
    I never even said I'm against buffs to it lol, merely stated that pre-patch it could outduel most mid-tier monsters such as Eagles Manticores etc while taking minimal HP loss. It could even outduel Alarielle and her inflated 40/40 stats 12% phys.resist. fat Eagle.
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 4,033

    Green0 said:

    vizaresh said:

    Green0 said:

    it used to be OP in monster duels so I'd say this is a good change.

    So no suggestion to make it good against things it should be good against? like infantry?
    the change is good even when it can't even win against 800g white lions?
    these HE fans are something else.

    anyways I think Cauldron needs
    more mass
    more speed
    faster turn rate
    and more damage

    they were never a good unit, the last patch made them practically useless. please fix them.

    yeah forgive me for nerfing the Cauldrons, #highelfed

    I have a personal line with CA balance team and a crusade against DE.

    Also if you mean that the Cauldron loses to White Lions when unmicro’d, well it’s a chariot idk why it would win the goal is to cycle charge.

    When I did testing, Death Hag on Cauldron had some bizarre results such as beating a Feral Eagle 1v1 time ago and did so in like 10-20s. Clearly something was not normal about how MA, CB and WS worked on this unit.

    Sorry again for nerfing DE though, only HE can be tier 1 hehe.
    I don't think a unit with a main ability to make it rampage for 42 seconds at a time, 50 speed and 35 charge bonus is particularly suited to or designed for effective cycle charging.
    no but i don't see why you can't have infantry support it. bleak swords are 450 correct?
    Yes bleakswords could support it. Do you think it is balanced as it currently is because bleakswords could support it?
    yes i think they are balanced as support chariot. may be could get a cost reduction
    Have you used them since the patch?
    What can they cost effectively beat/take on with 1 support infantry and counter effectively?
    No but pre patch it was pretty decent.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • GriffithxiGriffithxi Registered Users Posts: 731

    Green0 said:

    vizaresh said:

    Green0 said:

    it used to be OP in monster duels so I'd say this is a good change.

    So no suggestion to make it good against things it should be good against? like infantry?
    the change is good even when it can't even win against 800g white lions?
    these HE fans are something else.

    anyways I think Cauldron needs
    more mass
    more speed
    faster turn rate
    and more damage

    they were never a good unit, the last patch made them practically useless. please fix them.

    yeah forgive me for nerfing the Cauldrons, #highelfed

    I have a personal line with CA balance team and a crusade against DE.

    Also if you mean that the Cauldron loses to White Lions when unmicro’d, well it’s a chariot idk why it would win the goal is to cycle charge.

    When I did testing, Death Hag on Cauldron had some bizarre results such as beating a Feral Eagle 1v1 time ago and did so in like 10-20s. Clearly something was not normal about how MA, CB and WS worked on this unit.

    Sorry again for nerfing DE though, only HE can be tier 1 hehe.
    I don't think a unit with a main ability to make it rampage for 42 seconds at a time, 50 speed and 35 charge bonus is particularly suited to or designed for effective cycle charging.
    no but i don't see why you can't have infantry support it. bleak swords are 450 correct?
    Yes bleakswords could support it. Do you think it is balanced as it currently is because bleakswords could support it?
    yes i think they are balanced as support chariot. may be could get a cost reduction
    Have you used them since the patch?
    What can they cost effectively beat/take on with 1 support infantry and counter effectively?
    No but pre patch it was pretty decent.
    Well at least you are honest about it.
    If they were still anywhere near the performance they were at pre patch I would not have made this thread.
  • WitchbladeWitchblade Registered Users Posts: 594
    The more I think about it, this unit is actually outright terrible. If it was the same price as a master on chariot, I might consider it, but I actually still don't think I'd bring it any MU in a competitive game. If you want anti-inf, you can get 2 hags on foot for less, or instead of a tooled up shrine, you can get the RoR executioners. Neither is very good but decidedly better than a shrine for killing infantry.

    Pick rate in tournament: zero
    Pick rate in QB: zero
    I haven't seen one since its nerf, literally, in any setting.

    This unit is at least 200 gold overpriced.
  • vizareshvizaresh Registered Users Posts: 88
    why did they nerf the cauldron?
    IIRC few patches ago they also nerfed the range of the daggers that witch elves that are cauldron. and now this.
    I don't think I have ever encountered any DE opponent that has brought cauldron against me, even before the nerfs.

    maybe they want to redesign how it works little by little in the later patches but IDK and sustain DPS chariot is a unique and interesting design.

    I only bring one in some meme blob armies.
  • GriffithxiGriffithxi Registered Users Posts: 731

    The more I think about it, this unit is actually outright terrible. If it was the same price as a master on chariot, I might consider it, but I actually still don't think I'd bring it any MU in a competitive game. If you want anti-inf, you can get 2 hags on foot for less, or instead of a tooled up shrine, you can get the RoR executioners. Neither is very good but decidedly better than a shrine for killing infantry.

    Pick rate in tournament: zero
    Pick rate in QB: zero
    I haven't seen one since its nerf, literally, in any setting.

    This unit is at least 200 gold overpriced.

    Yea I am actually really surprised it made it to a live build in its current state smh
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