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Martial Prowess and Martial Mastery

UagrimUagrim Registered Users Posts: 1,002
The mechanics of Martial Prowess and Martial Masterys have been a big impact on HE balancing and I feel like the mechanic is more problematic in its current state. So this is a short lookover.

The Tabletop
In the tabletop Martial Prowess was a rule that allowed the HE units to fight and fire with an extra rank. Normally a unit with spears could attack from both the first and the second rank with the High Elves this extended to the third rank. Meaning they had a far greater offensive punch then you would expect from just their stats alone.

The Implementation
CA implemented Martial Prowess by tying it to a unit health pool to represent its loos once sufficient damage was taken. However the nature of the buff is focused on Melee Defense counter to the tabletop implementation. They also added it to lords and heroes making them benefit from a mechanic that they rely had no connection too. Unsurprisingly this meant that healing Lords and Heroes is more impactful.

The Changes
Note these changes will have to come with some base stat changes to all HE units that are effected by it.

1. Removing Martial Prowess and Mastery from Lords, Heroes and Chariots
2. Tying it to the actual model count of the unit and not its raw health.
3. Make it primarily a Melee Atttack and a Reload Speed Buff making it more useful on Ranged units and allowing for them to be better costed.
«1

Comments

  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 4,767
    I would very much have liked to see a redesign of MP but I fear that that window of opportunity was missed when they choose not to touch it in the dlc.
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Registered Users Posts: 3,957
    From what I remember reading about MP, it was originally envisaged to help HE defensively, as their models were expensive and easier to kill than most.

    It ended up backfiring in 8th edition due to how it actually worked in battle and due to combo with ASF, making High Elves murder machines.

    The way CA implemented it is probably closer to how it was supposed to work.

    High Elves were always more defensive version, Dark Elves being more offensive. That is also evident in the lore. I don't think there's anything wrong in how CA interpreted it all.

    So, for your points:

    1) yes, definitely
    2) this would be fine as well, if MP bonus was reduced, to something like 2/8.

    and for 3) I disagree. HE ranged are already powerful enough, and I think MP as implemented works well enough.
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Registered Users Posts: 1,549
    1)agree
    2)not a huge fan of the model method since it results in stupidly inconsistent mp retention.
    3)i think current implementation isnt bad tbh
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  • AWizard_LizardAWizard_Lizard Registered Users Posts: 1,233
    Yeah, the biggest problem imo is that that the buff is too extreme (and it's loss as well) leading to some overperformance (more that it should) when it's up and the opposite when it's down. I'd like a milder buff plus adjustments which might synergize better with possible future changes to some healing spells (changes that can make them more viable for multi-entity units).
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  • AWizard_LizardAWizard_Lizard Registered Users Posts: 1,233
    Still I wouldn't mind something regarding ranged units.
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  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 24,669
    edited June 27
    Just ditch it. There's simply no good way to make this work.

    Remove it from characters entirely, they have already great stats so they need no compensation.
    Remove it from regular units but give them 25-50% of the MP bonus as fixed value, maybe with a token price increase on top of that.

  • innerpinnerp Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 650

    Just ditch it. There's simply no good way to make this work.

    Remove it from characters entirely, they have already great stats so they need no compensation.
    Remove it from regular units but give them 25-50% of the MP bonus as fixed value, maybe with a token price increase on top of that.

    no thanks, MP is fine
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 24,669
    innerp said:

    Just ditch it. There's simply no good way to make this work.

    Remove it from characters entirely, they have already great stats so they need no compensation.
    Remove it from regular units but give them 25-50% of the MP bonus as fixed value, maybe with a token price increase on top of that.

    no thanks, MP is fine
    No, it's not, it's garbage.

  • RandomPeasantRandomPeasant Registered Users Posts: 14
    edited June 28
    *
    Post edited by RandomPeasant on
    NERF STAR OF AVERLORN :]
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 2,709

    innerp said:

    Just ditch it. There's simply no good way to make this work.

    Remove it from characters entirely, they have already great stats so they need no compensation.
    Remove it from regular units but give them 25-50% of the MP bonus as fixed value, maybe with a token price increase on top of that.

    no thanks, MP is fine
    No, it's not, it's garbage.
    Then please go awayyyy.

    Like what is there even slightly too over-performing in this game now anyway?

    VP zombo bombers or just VP at all haHA ? Seafang ? Sure
    Star of Avelorn? Caskets of souls ? Loons ? Pendulum ? Maybe
    Thats about it

    That doesn't justify spamming every thread and especially calling MP in its current state "garbage" at all. People used to play MP with spirit leech/Shem's deleting lords and still appreciated it. Or the time where FT would OHKO an entire army ? I still liked playing tbh.

    Worst part is that I kinda agree that Alarielle, Teclis and Wulfrik should lose their eagle, phoenix and mammoth in MP respectively for example, but the way you try to get these changes by spamming the same stuff without arguing and sometimes blaming people personally is so toxic its actually probably working against you anyway. You can't expect the balance team to take your suggestions seriously if you call the gamemode garbage anyway.

    Next time you boot the game (if you actually play it) you should probably play a bit more singleplayer if you think MP is so bad.
    I think he meant Martial Prowess
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 24,669
    edited June 28

    innerp said:

    Just ditch it. There's simply no good way to make this work.

    Remove it from characters entirely, they have already great stats so they need no compensation.
    Remove it from regular units but give them 25-50% of the MP bonus as fixed value, maybe with a token price increase on top of that.

    no thanks, MP is fine
    No, it's not, it's garbage.
    Then please go awayyyy.

    Like what is there even slightly too over-performing in this game now anyway?

    VP zombo bombers or just VP at all haHA ? Seafang ? Sure
    Star of Avelorn? Caskets of souls ? Loons ? Pendulum ? Maybe
    Thats about it

    That doesn't justify spamming every thread and especially calling MP in its current state "garbage" at all. People used to play MP with spirit leech/Shem's deleting lords and still appreciated it. Or the time where FT would OHKO an entire army ? I still liked playing tbh.

    Worst part is that I kinda agree that Alarielle, Teclis and Wulfrik should lose their eagle, phoenix and mammoth in MP respectively for example, but the way you try to get these changes by spamming the same stuff without arguing and sometimes blaming people personally is so toxic its actually probably working against you anyway. You can't expect the balance team to take your suggestions seriously if you call the gamemode garbage anyway.

    Next time you boot the game (if you actually play it) you should probably play a bit more singleplayer if you think MP is so bad.
    How about you pay attention to the thread topic before spouting off? Would that be too much asked?

    Hmm, recent join date, comes out swinging over "old" grudges right away?

    LoL, not even bothering to hide the smurf accounts, huh?

  • RandomPeasantRandomPeasant Registered Users Posts: 14
    Pocman said:

    innerp said:

    Just ditch it. There's simply no good way to make this work.

    Remove it from characters entirely, they have already great stats so they need no compensation.
    Remove it from regular units but give them 25-50% of the MP bonus as fixed value, maybe with a token price increase on top of that.

    no thanks, MP is fine
    No, it's not, it's garbage.
    Then please go awayyyy.

    Like what is there even slightly too over-performing in this game now anyway?

    VP zombo bombers or just VP at all haHA ? Seafang ? Sure
    Star of Avelorn? Caskets of souls ? Loons ? Pendulum ? Maybe
    Thats about it

    That doesn't justify spamming every thread and especially calling MP in its current state "garbage" at all. People used to play MP with spirit leech/Shem's deleting lords and still appreciated it. Or the time where FT would OHKO an entire army ? I still liked playing tbh.

    Worst part is that I kinda agree that Alarielle, Teclis and Wulfrik should lose their eagle, phoenix and mammoth in MP respectively for example, but the way you try to get these changes by spamming the same stuff without arguing and sometimes blaming people personally is so toxic its actually probably working against you anyway. You can't expect the balance team to take your suggestions seriously if you call the gamemode garbage anyway.

    Next time you boot the game (if you actually play it) you should probably play a bit more singleplayer if you think MP is so bad.
    I think he meant Martial Prowess
    That's true, shouldn't have hijacked the thread sorry about that.

    innerp said:

    Just ditch it. There's simply no good way to make this work.

    Remove it from characters entirely, they have already great stats so they need no compensation.
    Remove it from regular units but give them 25-50% of the MP bonus as fixed value, maybe with a token price increase on top of that.

    no thanks, MP is fine
    No, it's not, it's garbage.
    Then please go awayyyy.

    Like what is there even slightly too over-performing in this game now anyway?

    VP zombo bombers or just VP at all haHA ? Seafang ? Sure
    Star of Avelorn? Caskets of souls ? Loons ? Pendulum ? Maybe
    Thats about it

    That doesn't justify spamming every thread and especially calling MP in its current state "garbage" at all. People used to play MP with spirit leech/Shem's deleting lords and still appreciated it. Or the time where FT would OHKO an entire army ? I still liked playing tbh.

    Worst part is that I kinda agree that Alarielle, Teclis and Wulfrik should lose their eagle, phoenix and mammoth in MP respectively for example, but the way you try to get these changes by spamming the same stuff without arguing and sometimes blaming people personally is so toxic its actually probably working against you anyway. You can't expect the balance team to take your suggestions seriously if you call the gamemode garbage anyway.

    Next time you boot the game (if you actually play it) you should probably play a bit more singleplayer if you think MP is so bad.
    How about you pay attention to the thread topic before spouting off? Would that be too much asked?

    Hmm, recent join date, comes out swinging over "old" grudges right away?

    LoL, not even bothering to hide the smurf accounts, huh?
    Here's my old account just forgot my password : https://forums.totalwar.com/profile/random_peasant
    (^:
    NERF STAR OF AVERLORN :]
  • Mogwai_ManMogwai_Man Registered Users Posts: 3,761
    The High Elves are the least accurately adapted army in this game.
  • AWizard_LizardAWizard_Lizard Registered Users Posts: 1,233

    The High Elves are the least accurately adapted army in this game.

    I respectfully disagree.
    Karaz-a-Karak Discord server
  • innerpinnerp Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 650

    innerp said:

    Just ditch it. There's simply no good way to make this work.

    Remove it from characters entirely, they have already great stats so they need no compensation.
    Remove it from regular units but give them 25-50% of the MP bonus as fixed value, maybe with a token price increase on top of that.

    no thanks, MP is fine
    No, it's not, it's garbage.
    nah i like it how it is
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 24,669
    innerp said:

    innerp said:

    Just ditch it. There's simply no good way to make this work.

    Remove it from characters entirely, they have already great stats so they need no compensation.
    Remove it from regular units but give them 25-50% of the MP bonus as fixed value, maybe with a token price increase on top of that.

    no thanks, MP is fine
    No, it's not, it's garbage.
    nah i like it how it is
    So your opinion is irrelevant then. Bring some actual arguments how the current implementation benefits and enriches the game or don't bother.

    Arguments how it doesn't have already been made.

  • innerpinnerp Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 650

    innerp said:

    innerp said:

    Just ditch it. There's simply no good way to make this work.

    Remove it from characters entirely, they have already great stats so they need no compensation.
    Remove it from regular units but give them 25-50% of the MP bonus as fixed value, maybe with a token price increase on top of that.

    no thanks, MP is fine
    No, it's not, it's garbage.
    nah i like it how it is
    So your opinion is irrelevant then. Bring some actual arguments how the current implementation benefits and enriches the game or don't bother.

    Arguments how it doesn't have already been made.
    arguements like "its garbage" ?

    i've had no problem playing with or against it, therefore i have no reason to see it changed.
  • EmrysorEmrysor Registered Users Posts: 150
    Uagrim said:

    The mechanics of Martial Prowess and Martial Masterys have been a big impact on HE balancing and I feel like the mechanic is more problematic in its current state. So this is a short lookover.

    The Tabletop
    In the tabletop Martial Prowess was a rule that allowed the HE units to fight and fire with an extra rank. Normally a unit with spears could attack from both the first and the second rank with the High Elves this extended to the third rank. Meaning they had a far greater offensive punch then you would expect from just their stats alone.

    The Implementation
    CA implemented Martial Prowess by tying it to a unit health pool to represent its loos once sufficient damage was taken. However the nature of the buff is focused on Melee Defense counter to the tabletop implementation. They also added it to lords and heroes making them benefit from a mechanic that they rely had no connection too. Unsurprisingly this meant that healing Lords and Heroes is more impactful.

    The Changes
    Note these changes will have to come with some base stat changes to all HE units that are effected by it.

    1. Removing Martial Prowess and Mastery from Lords, Heroes and Chariots
    2. Tying it to the actual model count of the unit and not its raw health.
    3. Make it primarily a Melee Atttack and a Reload Speed Buff making it more useful on Ranged units and allowing for them to be better costed.

    You run the risk of making martial prowess to close with murderous prowess then. Both are offensive, it does not match with the idea of HE being more defensive oriented than DE. That seems to be the theme from my point of view.

    Martial prowess on imrik and tyrion makes sense since they are expert fighters. Maybe nobles to a degree. Would be cool to tone down the defensive passive with adding an offensive ability ontop of it.

    innerp said:

    innerp said:

    Just ditch it. There's simply no good way to make this work.

    Remove it from characters entirely, they have already great stats so they need no compensation.
    Remove it from regular units but give them 25-50% of the MP bonus as fixed value, maybe with a token price increase on top of that.

    no thanks, MP is fine
    No, it's not, it's garbage.
    nah i like it how it is
    So your opinion is irrelevant then. Bring some actual arguments how the current implementation benefits and enriches the game or don't bother.

    Arguments how it doesn't have already been made.
    Please every argument on this forum is based from opinion your post is just stupid. He states he likes how it us implemented is a good enough argument. It is up to you to show why an alternative is better.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 24,669
    edited June 28
    innerp said:

    innerp said:

    innerp said:

    Just ditch it. There's simply no good way to make this work.

    Remove it from characters entirely, they have already great stats so they need no compensation.
    Remove it from regular units but give them 25-50% of the MP bonus as fixed value, maybe with a token price increase on top of that.

    no thanks, MP is fine
    No, it's not, it's garbage.
    nah i like it how it is
    So your opinion is irrelevant then. Bring some actual arguments how the current implementation benefits and enriches the game or don't bother.

    Arguments how it doesn't have already been made.
    arguements like "its garbage" ?

    i've had no problem playing with or against it, therefore i have no reason to see it changed.
    You haven't read OP? So you aren't even bothering to read any arguments before "contributing", eh?

    Your personal likes and dislikes are irrelevant. Make an argument how the current implementation improves the game or don't bother responding. This board is about balance, not about whatever strikes your fancy.

    The current implementation is utter garbage because #1 it does not reflect what it was originally conceptualized as (that is HE being expert formation fighters) since it somehow applies to single characters who in this game don't ever fight in formations and #2 it means the performance of any unit with it is wildly inconsistent. OP at the beginning of the battle, UP at its end which greatly lowers the amount of possible uses and strategies for the unit.

  • innerpinnerp Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 650
    i dont need to make an arguement because the current implementation is how it is. i like how it is currently and see no reason why it should be changed. your ideas are awful and i do not want them implemented. ranged units dont need to be buffed, and changing it to melee attack just encroaches on the idea of DE being the more offensive melee faction and HE being the more defensive faction.

    i have never found it OP at the beggining of battle as there are a large variety of ways to chip a unit down before a melee engagement, so you are only left with the arguement that it is maybe UP, but HE feel strong as it is so i feel no need for change.

    stop getting mad at everyone who disagrees with you.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 24,669
    edited June 28
    Sorry, false answer.

    Unless you can show that a mechanic is enriching the gameplay experience, it's not a mechanic worth keeping around. "I can live with it" or "don't like it, don't use it" or any permutations thereof do not represent a valid endorsement.

    So MP needs to be altered or go because arguments how it definitely WORSENS the gameplay experience have been made.

  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 4,767

    Sorry, false answer.

    Unless you can show that a mechanic is enriching the gameplay experience, it's not a mechanic worth keeping around. "I can live with it" or "don't like it, don't use it" or any permutations thereof do not represent a valid endorsement.

    So MP needs to be altered or go because arguments how it definitely WORSENS the gameplay experience have been made.

    False.
  • UagrimUagrim Registered Users Posts: 1,002
    Emrysor said:

    Uagrim said:

    The mechanics of Martial Prowess and Martial Masterys have been a big impact on HE balancing and I feel like the mechanic is more problematic in its current state. So this is a short lookover.

    The Tabletop
    In the tabletop Martial Prowess was a rule that allowed the HE units to fight and fire with an extra rank. Normally a unit with spears could attack from both the first and the second rank with the High Elves this extended to the third rank. Meaning they had a far greater offensive punch then you would expect from just their stats alone.

    The Implementation
    CA implemented Martial Prowess by tying it to a unit health pool to represent its loos once sufficient damage was taken. However the nature of the buff is focused on Melee Defense counter to the tabletop implementation. They also added it to lords and heroes making them benefit from a mechanic that they rely had no connection too. Unsurprisingly this meant that healing Lords and Heroes is more impactful.

    The Changes
    Note these changes will have to come with some base stat changes to all HE units that are effected by it.

    1. Removing Martial Prowess and Mastery from Lords, Heroes and Chariots
    2. Tying it to the actual model count of the unit and not its raw health.
    3. Make it primarily a Melee Atttack and a Reload Speed Buff making it more useful on Ranged units and allowing for them to be better costed.

    You run the risk of making martial prowess to close with murderous prowess then. Both are offensive, it does not match with the idea of HE being more defensive oriented than DE. That seems to be the theme from my point of view.

    Martial prowess on imrik and tyrion makes sense since they are expert fighters. Maybe nobles to a degree. Would be cool to tone down the defensive passive with adding an offensive ability ontop of it.
    It doesn't make sense on characters at all. Why would their performance get worse with less health and why only for HE. The mechanic does not belong on units that have only one or few models like chariots. It is meant to represent the coordination within HE units not the capabilities of their individual warriors.
  • WitchbladeWitchblade Registered Users Posts: 594
    It's currently balanced, but it indeed doesn't make sense and the current implementation makes HE a win-more faction like Beastmen, whereas they should be more of a last-elf-standing faction. On characters it indeed makes no sense whatsoever. A redesign in game 3 would be nice, but I'd say it's a super low priority compared to some of the more glaring problems in this game, like cavalry being able to charge right into braced spears and sending them all flying without taking damage.
  • innerpinnerp Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 650
    edited June 28

    Sorry, false answer.

    Unless you can show that a mechanic is enriching the gameplay experience, it's not a mechanic worth keeping around. "I can live with it" or "don't like it, don't use it" or any permutations thereof do not represent a valid endorsement.

    So MP needs to be altered or go because arguments how it definitely WORSENS the gameplay experience have been made.


    "give me an arguement" "i dont like that arguement" thats why i only bothered giving you a half sentence answer. i dont need to show anything because this mechanic has existed since the inception of the game and has not caused any issues, the onus is on you. MP does not "need" anything, as the poster below you so eloquently put, false.
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 4,031
    MP and MM have lot of glaring weakness on units. Not so much on lords and heroes.

    But it only really matter if they are on dragons or other terror sems
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 6,370

    MP and MM have lot of glaring weakness on units. Not so much on lords and heroes.

    But it only really matter if they are on dragons or other terror sems

    all HE beasts don’t have MP/MM.

    As for why it is on chariots and characters, well I guess it’s for uniformity because CA wanted to give HE low stats that become great when MP/MM are active and it wouldn’t have made sense to have stuff like Nobles on foot with less MD than a Phoenix Guard with MM active.
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 4,031
    Green0 said:

    MP and MM have lot of glaring weakness on units. Not so much on lords and heroes.

    But it only really matter if they are on dragons or other terror sems

    all HE beasts don’t have MP/MM.

    As for why it is on chariots and characters, well I guess it’s for uniformity because CA wanted to give HE low stats that become great when MP/MM are active and it wouldn’t have made sense to have stuff like Nobles on foot with less MD than a Phoenix Guard with MM active.
    I mean it could get rework to be better. Loosing it at 50% hp doesn't make sense. May be they loose part of it. Would be better
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • UagrimUagrim Registered Users Posts: 1,002
    Green0 said:

    MP and MM have lot of glaring weakness on units. Not so much on lords and heroes.

    But it only really matter if they are on dragons or other terror sems

    all HE beasts don’t have MP/MM.

    As for why it is on chariots and characters, well I guess it’s for uniformity because CA wanted to give HE low stats that become great when MP/MM are active and it wouldn’t have made sense to have stuff like Nobles on foot with less MD than a Phoenix Guard with MM active.
    Why not?

    Wouldn't be a first case where a hero had lower stats then a unit in their roster.
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 4,031
    Uagrim said:

    Green0 said:

    MP and MM have lot of glaring weakness on units. Not so much on lords and heroes.

    But it only really matter if they are on dragons or other terror sems

    all HE beasts don’t have MP/MM.

    As for why it is on chariots and characters, well I guess it’s for uniformity because CA wanted to give HE low stats that become great when MP/MM are active and it wouldn’t have made sense to have stuff like Nobles on foot with less MD than a Phoenix Guard with MM active.
    Why not?

    Wouldn't be a first case where a hero had lower stats then a unit in their roster.
    They are asur. So by definition no. The higher the breeding higher the quality.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
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