Twilight Sisters - Lords or Heroes?

TheWattman#7460

We can all agree that the Wood Elves an update across the board. Both campaign mechanics and units. However, in the lord department I have noticed that there is some disagreement over who the WE should muster besides Orion and Durthu. There are basically 4 characters on the table: Drycha, Ariel, Araloth and the Sisters of Twilight. Of these, its the last option that I find a bit difficult to understand or justify as a lord option. The WE overall as a faction will probably never see more than 4 lords after their update, their playstyle is simply too cumbersome to fit into anymore positions, especially outside Athel Loren. There is only 1 lore-logical spot to put a WE start, while up to 3 more could be scrounged up by stretching the imagination.

Laurelorn is the obvious choice, being an actual WE-realm. Assuming for the moment we rule out the just plain boring option of adding a companion lord for Orion in Athel Loren, then its only logical for this spot to be reserved for Ariel, since she is the Queen of all WE and Laurelorn itself is ruled by an Elf Queen. Drycha also has a claim here, but a very fleeting one consisting really of rumour and superstition of peasants.

The other spots would be the very far-fetchedly created Oreon's camp in the Southlands, the Forests around Arnheim in Naggaroth (where the still living world root leading into Naggaroth deposits itself) or the Haunted Forest in the Dark Lands (another world route location). Oreon's camp I personally tend to discard as a possibility, both because of the very weak lore connection, but also because of its position in the grand scheme of things. What does that position offer, especially on the ME map? Nothing but sand and mountains, hardly a suitable spot for a WE start. As for the position in Naggaroth, its more viable and would offer more variety in enemies to fight and I think the World Root is a more suitable argument than Oreon's camp. The same for the Haunted Forest in the Dark Lands and especially the name here is atleast to me sufficient grounds to motivate putting Drycha at the helm of a horde-like WE faction in order to simulate how she roams the world followed by her Dryad Handmaidens. Her faction would be similar to Nakai's and hopefully with a "Branchmaiden" lord, but anyway, Im getting sidetracked here.

What is the best way to represent the Sisters of Twilight? In the lore, they are basically just working as Ariel's lieutenants in the Council or as heroes on the battlefield, who really fight their own fights instead of leading the army themselves. They're also classified as heroes by 8th edition. So is Drycha, but having her as a WE lord would be a perfect way of simulating the dual nature of the race, as they can be both good and evil, as she hates the Elves and basically everything else that is not of the forest. She and Durthu would represent that side, while Orion and Ariel would represent the light. And again, the Sisters, while different mentally, still serve Ariel in all things. Im not saying they shouldn't be implemented at all, but if so as legendary heroes attached to Ariel's faction.

So just to lay it out there, here is my version (and keep in mind, the general WE update can come with either of these):

WH2 or WH3 - DL1:
LL: Drycha
Position: Arnheim/Vaul's Anvil in Naggaroth
Lord: Branchmaiden
Hero: Shadowdancer (closest hero still remaining)

Units:
Great Stag Herd/Monster
Unicorn "Monster" (can come in either)
Spite Variants
Zoats (can also come either)
Alters

WH3 - DLC2:
LL: Ariel
LHs: Sisters
Position: Laurelorn
Lord: Spellweaver
Hero: Glade Captain

Units:
Unicorn (either)
Meadow Chariot
Ghost Striders
MAYBE Eonir Warriors
Zoats (either)


But what do you think guys? What is the best way to represent the Sisters? Lords, heroes, or something else? And why?

Maedrethnir#1968

The Wood Elves need a proper Elf LL and the Sisters are two beauties for the price of one.

Captain_Rex#1635

Every character can be a LL and since CA doesn’t want to add LHs for some reason, the Sisters should definitely be LL.

CA could handle them in two ways:
- 1 model like Skarsnik and Gobbla
- G&F approach where 1 is a LL and the other a LH

I think WE should have 4 LLs, that should be the minimum for all DLC races in my opinion.

Considering that they haven’t got anything since their release, I would say 2 more LLs is realistic, but we should not expect more.
Let’s be honest, WE are very very limited in start positions so 4 LLs would be perfectly fine for them.

I‘m personally not a Fan of Ariel, just don’t like her as a character, so I hope she won’t be added.
The same goes for Drycha, the whole „evil corrupted forest“ theme is not my cup of tea. We also already have a Forest Spirit LL with Durthu and a Demigod with Orion.

I would like to see the Sisters of Twilight and Araloth as Classic Archer LLs. It’s sad to see the WE without an actual Elf as a LL. The sisters would get a big fancy Dragon Mount and Araloth would be a classic Archer like Alith Anar or Wulfhart.

Start positions:
Now it’s getting tricky, WE can’t start everywhere, since they need their special WE provinces and also a connection to the Oak of Ages.

In my opinion the only real options are:
- Heart of the Jungle
- Laurelorn Forest

A WE start in Naggaroth wouldn’t make any sense and would feel wrong. Southlands and Northern Empire would definitely be cool.

I would also like to see another WE faction in Lustria.

In WH3 they could also get a start position in Khuresh if CA adds the Far East.

TheWattman#7460

Maedrethnir said:

The Wood Elves need a proper Elf LL and the Sisters are two beauties for the price of one.

ArneSo said:

I‘m personally not a Fan of Ariel, just don’t like her as a character, so I hope she won’t be added.
The same goes for Drycha, the whole „evil corrupted forest“ theme is not my cup of tea. We also already have a Forest Spirit LL with Durthu and a Demigod with Orion.

I would like to see the Sisters of Twilight and Araloth as Classic Archer LLs. It’s sad to see the WE without an actual Elf as a LL. The sisters would get a big fancy Dragon Mount and Araloth would be a classic Archer like Alith Anar or Wulfhart.

Doesn't Orion technically count as an Elf lord, since he is sculpted from the body of a Glade Lord each year?

Also Archer that is true yes. Although I'd like to point out there are plenty of factions without a ranged LL, like Dark Elves, Lizardmen, Bretonnia and Dwarfs. I do see the archer argument though. Perhaps they could be lords for Ariel, but not faction leaders?

Captain_Rex#1635

TheWattman said:

Maedrethnir said:

The Wood Elves need a proper Elf LL and the Sisters are two beauties for the price of one.

ArneSo said:

I‘m personally not a Fan of Ariel, just don’t like her as a character, so I hope she won’t be added.
The same goes for Drycha, the whole „evil corrupted forest“ theme is not my cup of tea. We also already have a Forest Spirit LL with Durthu and a Demigod with Orion.

I would like to see the Sisters of Twilight and Araloth as Classic Archer LLs. It’s sad to see the WE without an actual Elf as a LL. The sisters would get a big fancy Dragon Mount and Araloth would be a classic Archer like Alith Anar or Wulfhart.

Doesn't Orion technically count as an Elf lord, since he is sculpted from the body of a Glade Lord each year?

Also Archer that is true yes. Although I'd like to point out there are plenty of factions without a ranged LL, like Dark Elves, Lizardmen, Bretonnia and Dwarfs. I do see the archer argument though. Perhaps they could be lords for Ariel, but not faction leaders?

Nope Orion is a Demigod and doesn’t count as a basic Elf.

Yes there are races without ranged LLs, but WE are THE archer race in the game so they should at least have one Classic Ranged LL that buffs Archers.

Orion buffs Cavalry and Durthu Forest Spirits. WE need someone with a focus on ambush tactics and ranged units.

eomat#7953

I made a thread ages ago about the WE rework and lords. In that I Personally would like to see The Twilight Sisters as a LL and LH which would have buffs to be in the same army as each other. Naestra would be mounted on Gwindalor and Arahan on Ceithin-Har.

yolordmcswag#6132

I think the sisters are the best option for a LL. They represent regualr elves and are archers, two strong themes that the wood elves are kinda missing with their LL (Orion has a bowm, but it's not even animated when he uses the ability for it).

The sisters also stand out as being pretty unique, thanks to their dual nature. Ideally I would see them being a single model like Skarsnik and Gobbla, it would be the best way to represent their rules and allow them to share a mount. They could be very interesting with their different ranged attacks, could be shown through abilites and/or an ammunition change like elven bolt throwers have.

As for the arguments against them, I don't really see it. We have plenty of heroes and "underlings" as independent faction-ruling LL already, and we have characters that could never (or would never) lead an army being the heads of entire factions. Compared to those the sisters are fine, they could lead armies on the TT.

As for start position, I don't see the isue either. We have many LLs in strange places far away from their bases or homelands, the same can happen to the wood eles. They even have the worldroots to help create convenient excuses for why they are at any given place. "Ariel sent the sisters through the world roots to fulfil mission x" is a perfectly acceptable reason for the sisters to be anywhere, by this games' standards anyway.

As for the other LLs, I don't think they are great options. Drycha is alright, but she shares the tree-spirit focus of Durthu, just more extreme. With her lore she should ideally not be leading elves at all, and unless the tree-spirit roster is greatly expanded this is difficult.

Araloth is just pretty boring, hes a good fighter but has no unique items and very few abilities.

Ariel is a good option for a cool and unique LL, but she lacks a recent miniature or rules. This could be a good thing though, as it would give CA a lot of freedom to design her character based on different sources.

Lastly, there are others like Naieth, Daith or Scarloc, but I think those should come after the ones above, due to lacking material about them.

Arthas_Menethil#3421

I see the Sisters of Twilight as a Lord working like Skarsnik and Gobbla when dismounted and on the same mounts.
Feel Ariel could work like the Kroak of the Wood Elves don't know how that would work if Drycha is made a lord though given how anti Elf she is.

Timpeyo#7210

Sisters of Twilight should be a LL and could start in Wydrioth, the Pine Crags to the east or further a field if need be as they protect the woods but arnt tied to it like already In game lord's and could be sent out on a missions.

Ariel would also make a good LL being a Spellcaster and I'd be fine with that, but the SoT were created as protectors by her to fight her battles as she had to remain close to the Tree, so the SoT actually makes more sense leading an army than she does.

I wouldn't mind Ariel being a LH ether tho as it would work I don't think SoT would work as well, Ariel would work better being a strong Spellcaster with large impact spells available too all lord's like Kroak

Lord Daith would be an interesting lord choice too I think, a strong melee fighter and expert blacksmith as well as being blind, I'm sure CA could do something interesting with him

saweendra#3399

SoT and areil are the two lords i am hyped for.

Pocman#6295

This proposals are absolutely terrible...

Helhound#7332

They should in fact be one LL unit. A lot you could do with that mechanically to help make them truly unique if they are in fact just one unit. Plus you then dodge the question of how best to implement them as two separate characters. Lord and Hero? Which one deserves the demotion to Hero? Two lords in one Army? That'd be one option, but less thematic and more gimmicky than just making them one unit. Actually wrote up exactly how I'd implement them earlier, copy paste it. So all of the above points I made about them being a two model lord unit plus:

Special Abilities:

Cytharai Eclipse- Basically a souped up Arrow of Kurnous that does quite a bit of AoE. Supposed to recreate Arahan's bow ability.

Cadai Twilight- A souped up prey of Anath Raema, that provides a very minor healing to targets hitting the snared prey. Supposed to recreate Naestra's bows ability.

On Foot: //Remember there's two on foot.

Health: 4630(Ultra)
Armor: 40
LDS: 80
Speed: 46
MA: 65
MD: 65
CB: 22
WD: 175(95 AP), 4s, R1
MiD: 102(136AP), r-t6.8, A41, R200, Magical, 360
*Under the hood mechanic, neither model can die until both have 1 or 0 health remaining*

On Eagle (Gwindalor): //Remember still two people firing a ranged weapon.

Health: 5342
Armor: 50
LDS: 80
Speed: 115
MA: 65
MD: 45
CB: 80
WD: 168(236 AP), 4s, R1
MiD: 102(136AP), r-t6.8, A41, R200, Magical, 360

On Dragon (Ceithin-Har): //Remember still two people firing a ranged weapon.

Health: 6586
Armor: 70
LDS: 80
Speed: 90
MA: 48, Poison, Magical
MD: 45
CB: 75
WD: 155(330 AP), 4s, R1
MiD: 102(136AP), r-t6.8, A41, R200, Magical, 360

What all of the above amounts to is the Sisters themselves being only slightly statistically stronger than a Glade Lord. Which is fair, they are a LL pick. However their health per model is lower, as is their individual weapon damage. Meaning that unless both are hitting consistently, they do less than a Glade Lord will. Given their high averages and Welf accuracy though, it should in theory average out to them being slightly more powerful than a Glade Lord in raw combat. What really sets them apart from a Glade Lord is their unique mounts, unique special weapon abilities, on foot can't die gimmick, and then their surprising resilience to single target damage when on foot as well. They'd almost be an anti-duelist lord unit, as duelists don't generally deal damage in an AoE, and killing one sister requires killing both. Imagine 10000 arrows pelting them, but near all of them hit only one of the sisters. As long as one has health, the other will stand back up. Neat trick.

Glad I didn't have to type all this up again, found it pretty quick.

TheWattman#7460

eomat said:

I made a thread ages ago about the WE rework and lords. In that I Personally would like to see The Twilight Sisters as a LL and LH which would have buffs to be in the same army as each other. Naestra would be mounted on Gwindalor and Arahan on Ceithin-Har.

That's the setup I'd say if they're handled seperately. Keep the eagle and dragon seperate too.

Pocman said:

This proposals are absolutely terrible...

Please, elaborate?

Lord_Distamorfin#1941

Regardless of whether they should be a lord or a hero, Naestra and Arahan have to be implemented as a two-entity unit or not come at all. Splitting them into two heroes or a lord and a hero would completely negate their lore and uniqueness as characters. I'd rather not get them at all than get them half-baked.

Giving them each their own ammo and ammo type shouldn't be a problem, as units like the Steam Tank and the Stegadon have multiple ranged weapons with different ammo types. Each of their bows can be an item that gives, among other things, a bound magic missile. Naestra's bow, the Talon of Dawn, fires flaming arrows and steals the souls of those it kills. It can give a bound magic missile, similar to Markus Wulfhart, that deals fire damage and gives Naestra & Arahan regeneration for a time. Arahan's bow the Talon of Dusk, fires arrows which splinter into poisonous thorns. It can give a bound magic missile that causes damage over time. One would be a single-entity killer while the other is a large model count killer.

Their Conjoined Destiny ability revives one twin if they are not both killed at the same time. Each twin can just have their own hidden health bar like how regular units have unit health and individual model health. If one dies, they resurrect if the other isn't killed quickly enough.

Magicspook

Lord_Distamorfin said:

Regardless of whether they should be a lord or a hero, Naestra and Arahan have to be implemented as a two-entity unit or not come at all. Splitting them into two heroes or a lord and a hero would completely negate their lore and uniqueness as characters. I'd rather not get them at all than get them half-baked.

Giving them each their own ammo and ammo type shouldn't be a problem, as units like the Steam Tank and the Stegadon have multiple ranged weapons with different ammo types. Each of their bows can be an item that gives, among other things, a bound magic missile. Naestra's bow, the Talon of Dawn, fires flaming arrows and steals the souls of those it kills. It can give a bound magic missile, similar to Markus Wulfhart, that deals fire damage and gives Naestra & Arahan regeneration for a time. Arahan's bow the Talon of Dusk, fires arrows which splinter into poisonous thorns. It can give a bound magic missile that causes damage over time. One would be a single-entity killer while the other is a large model count killer.

Their Conjoined Destiny ability revives one twin if they are not both killed at the same time. Each twin can just have their own hidden health bar like how regular units have unit health and individual model health. If one dies, they resurrect if the other isn't killed quickly enough.

I think different types of ammo only works within a single entity like, as you mentioned, stegadons. There is no precedent for a multiple-entity unit with ammo variation within the unit (imagine a unit of mixed artillery pieces or mixed archers and gunpowder). So I assume that's not possible.

Arthas_Menethil#3421

Magicspook said:

Lord_Distamorfin said:

Regardless of whether they should be a lord or a hero, Naestra and Arahan have to be implemented as a two-entity unit or not come at all. Splitting them into two heroes or a lord and a hero would completely negate their lore and uniqueness as characters. I'd rather not get them at all than get them half-baked.

Giving them each their own ammo and ammo type shouldn't be a problem, as units like the Steam Tank and the Stegadon have multiple ranged weapons with different ammo types. Each of their bows can be an item that gives, among other things, a bound magic missile. Naestra's bow, the Talon of Dawn, fires flaming arrows and steals the souls of those it kills. It can give a bound magic missile, similar to Markus Wulfhart, that deals fire damage and gives Naestra & Arahan regeneration for a time. Arahan's bow the Talon of Dusk, fires arrows which splinter into poisonous thorns. It can give a bound magic missile that causes damage over time. One would be a single-entity killer while the other is a large model count killer.

Their Conjoined Destiny ability revives one twin if they are not both killed at the same time. Each twin can just have their own hidden health bar like how regular units have unit health and individual model health. If one dies, they resurrect if the other isn't killed quickly enough.

I think different types of ammo only works within a single entity like, as you mentioned, stegadons. There is no precedent for a multiple-entity unit with ammo variation within the unit (imagine a unit of mixed artillery pieces or mixed archers and gunpowder). So I assume that's not possible.

You missed out the Steam Tank which has a Steam Cannon that does not act like the main gun.

Pocman#6295

TheWattman said:

eomat said:

I made a thread ages ago about the WE rework and lords. In that I Personally would like to see The Twilight Sisters as a LL and LH which would have buffs to be in the same army as each other. Naestra would be mounted on Gwindalor and Arahan on Ceithin-Har.

That's the setup I'd say if they're handled seperately. Keep the eagle and dragon seperate too.

Pocman said:

This proposals are absolutely terrible...

Please, elaborate?

BBecause you have chosen the most boring units to fill a full lord pack, while ignoring the actual cool ones.


Unicron herds? WHat's the point? What role would they play in a WE army? Plus, we already have unicorns in the roster.


Drycha as a the lord pack lord? She was literally the less unique legenday option in the roster. She did not even have art or a model: it shared the standard branchwraith one.

Branchmaidens as lords? I mean, you are basically proposing taking an already existing and boring hero (branchwraiths) and fill the roster with 3 different reskins of it, all of which would play the same boring role: foot mage with minimal melee capacity.

Ariel in Laurelorn? Send her to Naggarond, at least there would be lore reasons for her to be there.

I mean, I sounded as an idiot in my previous post, and for that I apologize.

Zekerath#3609

I don't think I understand the sentiment of "wood elves need an elf LL". I mean I wholeheartedly agree that they need a new LL, but I'd be glad with all the options I've seen presented, Ariel, Sisters, Araloth, Drycha, Daith, and Naieth. With the roster of missing LL like that, it is very likely next LL will be an elf, but I won't cry bloody murder if it turned up not to be.
I always liked that their realm was first and foremost ruled by gods, or their aspects or avatars or whatever you'd call Ariel and Orion, then the Ancients, and then elves, so to me it makes sense that there would not be so many legendary elven figures. Unlike in Ulthuan, where every province seem to have their own legendary person, only a couple of the Eternal Realms are lorded by notable elves, Araloth and Daith.
In the end, all I want is a good, well done LL for wood elves, knife-ears or not.

On the main post of this thread, in my ideal world, the Mortal Empires map would be a lot bigger to allow all the realms of Athel Loren be present (with all the needed tweaks and balances, because 12 tightly packed province powerhouses that the current Athel Loren settlements are would make wood elves unstoppable once confederated), and that way more legendary lords could be more easily fitted inside Athel Loren without even necessarily having to have them be right next to each other. But alas, I doubt CA will do that.
Also I'm unsure why discard Oreon's Camp so easily? It's not like wood elves suffer from climates, so "reforesting" the deserts of Nehekhara could be motivation enough. Or Naieth having prophetic dream about great darkness in the south rising and sending a lord to deal with it.
As for the sisters, I wouldn't mind them either way, as heroes or as lords. Making them a lord, or lords, could prove interesting challenge for CA to implement, so I'm leaning more on that way just to see what CA could come up with.

TheLowKing#4090

Drycha is the best lord for a unique ambush mechanic, her entire lore is about shadowy attacks and her tabletop mechanics let her summon Forest Spirit units from any woods on the battlefield. Not to mention she is the most reasonable to start elsewhere on the map. Lots of unique campaign mechanics possible with her as well.

The Sisters of Twilight would make great archer lords with a cool two-model-one-unit arrangement and regeneration mechanics. Probably some useful ideas creating a "balance/harmony" mechanic to go with them as well. They should never be seperate units though, that is a strait up lore contradiction.

Araloth for an actual elf Lord to buff elf units and offer a dedicated non-monsterous foot lord. Possibly a bit generic but also can explore more of the Wood Elf side and be the opposite to Drycha's hatred and corruption.

Ariel is an interesting character, but im not sure she adds much, being just a super good caster and a bit too similar to the Everqueen.

Pocman#6295

Why are you showing them as being much more complicated to put into the game than they were?

Currently, there are three different problems that make adding them difficult. As you will see, they are not actually that difficult to surpass:

1. They were a two entity model. They were NOT two different entities. They were not Gotrek and Felix or Vlad and Isabella. Gameplaywise they played like a single entity, not as two different ones. Lorewise, they were always together, to the point were it is assumed that they are a single soul divided into two bodies. Some of their special rules only made sense both gameplaywise and lorewise if they are together.

2. They had a special rule that made each of them resurrect unless the other sister was killed in the same turn.

3. They had two different ranged attacks. One of them


- Regarding the first problem: Naestra and Arahan COULD NOT BE BROUGHT AS FOOTLORDS. Like Tiqtaqto and other similar characters, they were always brought on their mounts. You could only choose which mount, the Eagle or the Dragon. The only moment in which they would fight on foot would be if their mount was killed. Which is a non issue because in Total War, mounts do not have an independent HP from their riders. For example, if you kill the ancient stegadon, you also kill the skinks on it, and viceversa, you can't kill the riders without killing the mount.

So the easiest way to implement them is simpy by putting both of them in a single mount. Like Mazmadundi and the skinks that accompany him. This would be the most respectful with TT, coherent with the rules of the game, etc.

- Regarding the second problem: as you can see, it is actually not a real problem. If CA decides to respect TT and make them only availablee on one of their mounts, this special rule could be solved as an extra HP boost like Gotrek or the phoenix.

If, for whatever the reason, CA decides to make them available on foot, there are two different solutions. One, make them Skarsnik 2.0. Nmake them a single unit that looks like two, but does not have actually two different HP bars.

The other is using the mechanic used by Eltharion's helm or the red crested skinks RoR, that makes models unkillable. But instead of making it temporary, make it a constant effect that deactivates while the unit is below 15% HP. However, imho, wasting effort into designing such mechanic is useless due to the fact that such mechanic would only make sense while they are on foot.


- Regarding the third problem: Not much of a problem, really. It could use the same mechanic as the DE and HE artillery, and simply have them choose between two types of ammo, or make one of them the ranged attack option while the other one is added as a bound ability. It's not really a tecnhical problem, CA has already done it with other units.


For option 1, the talon of the Dusk would work like the ROR ushatbis or the death wind mortars, with every arrow dealing damage similar to that of a normal arrow, while having low AP ratio. While the Talon of the Dawn is a simpler one that shoots single target arrows that deal massive AP damage, and activating regen while shooting.

Alternatively, they could make the talon of the dusk a bound ability.