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Modest changes for Lizardmen

Noob_for_LifeNoob_for_Life Registered Users Posts: 210
Was disappointed by lack of tweaking of Lizardmen units last patch so hear are some suggested changes to help shake up there balance a little.

Solar Engine & Ancient Salamander
Think Solar Engine could use plus 50 gold and the Ancient minus 50 gold along with plus 2 ammo. Solar Engine offers a lot for it's current price so think the plus 50 gold is appropriate. As for the Ancient Sally price buff because the unit is super easy to counter and can often be a poor investment due to its squishy nature and plus 2 ammo to reward players that have the micro to keep it alive.

Saurus Spears (Shields)
Could use plus 1-2 MD as of right now almost never a reason to take them. They lose 5 MA, 6 AP weapon strength, 4 non-AP weapon strength, and 6 charge bonus. While only gaining 4 MD and 15 BvL. The MD gained just needs to be higher imo to make the unit useful.

Red Crested Skinks
Revert the price nerf they got -25 gold. Don't think they deserved the the plus 25 gold to begin with not a very strong unit far to squishy for the 600 gold price tag.

Nakai
Needs at minimum 150 gold price decrease but would like to see more rework of his abilities and stat adjustment. For being a front line blob Lord he goes down to fast with his low MD and health pool not to mention he can't duel any other monsters being a monstrous infantry unit he just gets tossed around. The blobbing abilities just feel uninspired and boring so would like a redesign but i know that's asking to much. Need more CB as well 24 is laughable.

Kroak
Take a second off the cast times for him. Even against a intermediate/beginner player its super hard to get good hits with Kroaks spells because of there long cast times.

Ruination of Cities
The spells is bugged all lines cast on top of each other. I know i have brought this up before but i will continue to do so till its fixed.

Ripperdactyl Riders
More MD or another 5% missile resist. Feel to squishy for the price tag. Would be willing to trade some of the MA for MD not like they need 44 base MA anyways.

Manticore Summons
Could use more time added to cooldown to prevent having two manticore summons at the same time.

Shield of the Old Ones
Very powerful ability think it should be limited to 3 uses. Make the LM player put more thought into when they want to use it then spamming it every time it comes off cooldown.
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Comments

  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 4,031
    kroak should be op as broken, and cost more than half your army.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 4,767
    I agree except for kroak and red crests.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 6,370
    edited June 29
    Spears: agreed at the same time I would like Silverins to get at least +1 AP back, better if +2. In my opinion Saurus Spears were just a bad unit and comparison with Silverins suggested that Saurus Spears needed a small buff, not Silverins a nerf.

    Red Crested Skinks: not sure how to feel about this one, I think the balancing philosophy here is that you can Kroxi rush with them and 1000g Kroxigors hence why they are slightly below average. You are paying mostly for speed and poison here hence why 1v1 they don't feel great but I think they are priced fairly currently. Red Crest Skinks + 2-3 Kroxigors coming your way is quite hard of a rush to stop so I'm not sure on this one.

    Nakai: agreed but maybe instead of cost reduction more CB, more MD.

    Kroak: leave him a campaign only lord, we had a Kroak meta upon the release of a LZ DLC and having your units deleted one by one is not very fun.

    Ruination: needs its code fixed I agree.

    Ripperdactyls: unsure here, they feel balanced intuitively. No strong opinion on this one though open to change my mind.

    Manticores: agreed

    Shield of Old Ones: not a big deal doesn't need this nerf I feel. LZ currently can't stack resistances too much, regardless of whether u can use it max 3 times or infinite times the ability is in a good place and you kinda need this extra resistance stacking anyway in matchups like vs TK.
  • Noob_for_LifeNoob_for_Life Registered Users Posts: 210
    Green0 said:


    Red Crested Skinks: not sure how to feel about this one, I think the balancing philosophy here is that you can Kroxi rush with them and 1000g Kroxigors hence why they are slightly below average. You are paying mostly for speed and poison here hence why 1v1 they don't feel great but I think they are priced fairly currently. Red Crest Skinks + 2-3 Kroxigors coming your way is quite hard of a rush to stop so I'm not sure on this one.

    They have a MD of 19. Skink Cohorts are more survivable with there MD of 24 and shields. Also there is a lot of poison on the roster already making that less of a useful trait. Yes Kroxi rush with red crests can be a decent play but doesn't mean Red Crest isn't a UP unit by itself. Since the price increase i rarely use them in most builds only the RoR since it's unbreakable. I just never saw the Red Crest over performing there old price and think 600 is to much for such a squishy unit.
  • ThibixMagnusThibixMagnus Registered Users Posts: 505
    while items or (ahem) mounts could be reserved for campaign, a characters as important as Kroak should absolutely be in mutliplayer. Kroak going from OP to never seen is yet another example of going too soon for nerfs instead of mechanic rework, like in all cases where counterplay mechanics are lacking. E.g. making the spell centered on Kroak could be a start, from which to tweak price, WoM, cast time, increase AoE size each tier. So to maximize gains you have to take more risks with it, while the size of the marker better tells what tier is being cast.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 1,669

    Kroak going from OP to never seen is yet another example of going too soon for nerfs instead of mechanic rework, like in all cases where counterplay mechanics are lacking.

    In tournaments, you never see him cause you cannot combine him with Mazda due to tournament rules(which were added for only reason to prevent net+Itza combo cause it is broken OP). You can use him in QB vs some factions just fine.
    And he is solid in team games.
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 4,031
    tank3487 said:

    Kroak going from OP to never seen is yet another example of going too soon for nerfs instead of mechanic rework, like in all cases where counterplay mechanics are lacking.

    In tournaments, you never see him cause you cannot combine him with Mazda due to tournament rules(which were added for only reason to prevent net+Itza combo cause it is broken OP). You can use him in QB vs some factions just fine.
    And he is solid in team games.
    nope he needs to be a lot stronger, he is the strongest in lore.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 1,669


    nope he needs to be a lot stronger, he is the strongest in lore.

    All are possible with a price increase of course.
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 4,031
    tank3487 said:


    nope he needs to be a lot stronger, he is the strongest in lore.

    All are possible with a price increase of course.
    Thats what i am proposing as well as a casting time increase. But if it hits, at teir 3 spell it should be gg.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 6,370

    Green0 said:


    Red Crested Skinks: not sure how to feel about this one, I think the balancing philosophy here is that you can Kroxi rush with them and 1000g Kroxigors hence why they are slightly below average. You are paying mostly for speed and poison here hence why 1v1 they don't feel great but I think they are priced fairly currently. Red Crest Skinks + 2-3 Kroxigors coming your way is quite hard of a rush to stop so I'm not sure on this one.

    They have a MD of 19. Skink Cohorts are more survivable with there MD of 24 and shields. Also there is a lot of poison on the roster already making that less of a useful trait. Yes Kroxi rush with red crests can be a decent play but doesn't mean Red Crest isn't a UP unit by itself. Since the price increase i rarely use them in most builds only the RoR since it's unbreakable. I just never saw the Red Crest over performing there old price and think 600 is to much for such a squishy unit.
    I am glad to buff them if in turn it means they get 35 speed or so.
  • Modern_ErasmusModern_Erasmus Registered Users Posts: 201
    Agreed with pretty much everything except the max use of Shield just because that's a lot of value to lose on the generic slanns.

    Only other things would be that in exchange for the cost increase the solar engine could use a little more accuracy (that thing regularly misses mammoths) and I don't think Ancient sallies need either a cost decrease or more ammo. Ancient sallies really just want a few hundred more hp: 2800 is just absurdly low and means even non ap missiles wipe it out almost immediately. It doesn't need the 4500 it used to have, but even just +3-500 would be a good sweetspot imo.
  • Noob_for_LifeNoob_for_Life Registered Users Posts: 210
    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:


    Red Crested Skinks: not sure how to feel about this one, I think the balancing philosophy here is that you can Kroxi rush with them and 1000g Kroxigors hence why they are slightly below average. You are paying mostly for speed and poison here hence why 1v1 they don't feel great but I think they are priced fairly currently. Red Crest Skinks + 2-3 Kroxigors coming your way is quite hard of a rush to stop so I'm not sure on this one.

    They have a MD of 19. Skink Cohorts are more survivable with there MD of 24 and shields. Also there is a lot of poison on the roster already making that less of a useful trait. Yes Kroxi rush with red crests can be a decent play but doesn't mean Red Crest isn't a UP unit by itself. Since the price increase i rarely use them in most builds only the RoR since it's unbreakable. I just never saw the Red Crest over performing there old price and think 600 is to much for such a squishy unit.
    I am glad to buff them if in turn it means they get 35 speed or so.
    That doesn’t make sense though. Them losing speed would be a unnecessary nerf when it’s already a under performing unit. In I 1v1 they lose to pretty much everything in and even below there price range. Need the speed to keep up with the rest of your skinks and monstrous infantry. They have the stat line of a chaff tier unit for 600 gold. Even when I Krox rush these days I usually just use Cohorts with javs because they are generally a better investment. Red Crests are just terrible in combat and squishy to everything often get wrecked before infantry lines even meet. Just not worth it bringing a unit that will barely perform better then Cohorts while costing twice as much and having less survivability.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 6,370

    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:


    Red Crested Skinks: not sure how to feel about this one, I think the balancing philosophy here is that you can Kroxi rush with them and 1000g Kroxigors hence why they are slightly below average. You are paying mostly for speed and poison here hence why 1v1 they don't feel great but I think they are priced fairly currently. Red Crest Skinks + 2-3 Kroxigors coming your way is quite hard of a rush to stop so I'm not sure on this one.

    They have a MD of 19. Skink Cohorts are more survivable with there MD of 24 and shields. Also there is a lot of poison on the roster already making that less of a useful trait. Yes Kroxi rush with red crests can be a decent play but doesn't mean Red Crest isn't a UP unit by itself. Since the price increase i rarely use them in most builds only the RoR since it's unbreakable. I just never saw the Red Crest over performing there old price and think 600 is to much for such a squishy unit.
    I am glad to buff them if in turn it means they get 35 speed or so.
    That doesn’t make sense though. Them losing speed would be a unnecessary nerf when it’s already a under performing unit. In I 1v1 they lose to pretty much everything in and even below there price range. Need the speed to keep up with the rest of your skinks and monstrous infantry. They have the stat line of a chaff tier unit for 600 gold. Even when I Krox rush these days I usually just use Cohorts with javs because they are generally a better investment. Red Crests are just terrible in combat and squishy to everything often get wrecked before infantry lines even meet. Just not worth it bringing a unit that will barely perform better then Cohorts while costing twice as much and having less survivability.
    You know they have Frenzy and like 20 CB?

    Their stats are not bad. Definitely worth 525-550g and this is the price of the units they can beat. On top of that they have poison and 46 speed, if trading is what matters for them let’s remove poison and speed and -75g if they don’t need that it would help them trade better 1v1.
  • EnergyzedEnergyzed Registered Users Posts: 357
    There are surelly a few units that are strong on the lizardmen roster, but not enough to consider any of them overperforming. This logic of proposing nerfs to fine units, to justify buffs to units that are in need of buffs is simply counterproductive.

    On regards to your proposals:

    Solar engine- It is great if able to shoot. The problem is that it is a complelty map dependant unit, even having line of sight issues on maps that could be considered "flat". Great as it is now, no nerf needed.

    Ancient sally- Agree that it needs a buff, from my point of view its main issue is its low HP. +150-200 HP could be decent enough.

    Saurus spears- Maybe they could get a minor MD buff, however i doubt that changes their pick rate. They arent a staple pick because they dont fit on lizardmen playstyle. There is no archer line to defend and for dealing with large units you alredy got skirmishers, AP cav and carnos.

    Red crested skinks- They suffer from the same issue as skink cohorts, were they lose against any other infantry unit on their price range. However, this is fine as they are fast and have a relatively "high" LD. Maybe RCS could get a less meaningful buff like +1 CB.

    Nakai- Yes, he is in need of a buff. I think that +10CB and inmune to psychology/ terror is a must.

    Lord Kroak- He is currently garbage. He needs a buff, but at the same time it is true that if overbuffed he can encourage disgusting gameplay. -75/100 cost would be nice so he becomes a more attractive pick sometimes.

    Ripperdactyl riders- I actually like the fact they are quite niche and glass cannon type of unit. If they deserve a buff, which im not sure they do, i would prefer it was on their offensive stats.

    Invocation of Khadon- Yes, +10 to +20 Secs of CD.

    Shield of the old ones- No, its completly fine.
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Registered Users Posts: 3,957
    I'm surprised no one mentions Tehen. He is overpriced.

    He could use a 100-150 price reduction.
  • Meteor18Meteor18 Registered Users Posts: 157

    I'm surprised no one mentions Tehen. He is overpriced.

    He could use a 100-150 price reduction.

    Yes, he is very overpriced. 150 gold on foot, 100 gold on Cold one and 150-200 gold on Ripperdactyl. Probably 100 gold on engine of the gods too, as you can't combo his beam with net and it never going to work otherwise.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 4,767
    edited June 30
    There is also something wrong with the animations of chars on rippers is my impression. They lose to stuff they should not be losing to in air combat.
  • Noob_for_LifeNoob_for_Life Registered Users Posts: 210

    I'm surprised no one mentions Tehen. He is overpriced.

    He could use a 100-150 price reduction.

    I didn't actually see that. My thoughts on him where ability rework because the poison aura is useless.

    But when comparing his price to other things seems fine. Like naked Old Blood and Ten both cost 1000 gold but ten is a caster and has better LD, speed, and MA. He also pays less for his mounts then other lords. Kroq-Gar pays 400 for a horned one mount while Ten pays 300. Also Skink Priest pays 1950 gold for Engine of the Gods mount while Ten pays 1200. So i think Ten is fine with his prices.

    The change i would like to see is plus 10 meter to effect range of the Serpent's Blade and/or a 12% increase to the charge bonus effect putting it at 20%.

    Why did you think Ten was Overpriced @Sarmatians ?
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 1,847
    Ten isnt overpriced, he is a hybrid

    but his poison item is quite overpriced, and the ward save item require to cast trigger is also a bit overpriced
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Registered Users Posts: 3,957

    I'm surprised no one mentions Tehen. He is overpriced.

    He could use a 100-150 price reduction.

    I didn't actually see that. My thoughts on him where ability rework because the poison aura is useless.

    But when comparing his price to other things seems fine. Like naked Old Blood and Ten both cost 1000 gold but ten is a caster and has better LD, speed, and MA. He also pays less for his mounts then other lords. Kroq-Gar pays 400 for a horned one mount while Ten pays 300. Also Skink Priest pays 1950 gold for Engine of the Gods mount while Ten pays 1200. So i think Ten is fine with his prices.

    The change i would like to see is plus 10 meter to effect range of the Serpent's Blade and/or a 12% increase to the charge bonus effect putting it at 20%.

    Why did you think Ten was Overpriced @Sarmatians ?
    Huh, you might be right. I did some testing and he does perform as a 1000 base fighter should perform.

    I don't know, he always seem too expensive to bring, but that might be the case of other lord options simply being superior.

    Naked Mazd on Zlaaq is 1800
    Naked Tehen on Steg is 2200, and for that you get frenzy, 5% 40m ward save and space laser...

    Is that worth 400? Maybe Mazd is too cheap...
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 4,767
    edited June 30
    I think it's due to lore of beast having less utility than lore of Mazda, life or high he feels expensive.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 4,767
    I mean, you can only complement him with heaven, but if you pick Mazda or slann you can complement with manticore if you want one. If there had been more lores for hero slots i think you would see tehe more.
  • BjornNorlinderBjornNorlinder Registered Users Posts: 223
    edited June 30
    Ripper die too fast and cost too much
    They also fail to kill things before outright dying. They arent useless but really need help. Ca seems aware but are way too conservative by just going with a +1 md(?) buff, cant remember since it was so meaningless.
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Registered Users Posts: 3,957
    Flying needs to be expensive.

    We've seen how oppressive cheap flyers can be.
  • Noob_for_LifeNoob_for_Life Registered Users Posts: 210

    Flying needs to be expensive.

    We've seen how oppressive cheap flyers can be.

    Yea but rippers aren't touting handguns or steam guns in the sky nor do they have terror. So i would think of most flying units buffing them would be one of the safest flyers to buff. Just weird how CA buffs up Gyro's and Deckdroppers to oppressive levels then gives rippers plus 1 MD. Manticores would be more useful in the Lizard roster then rippers are. I would say rippers can receive some buffs without being in danger of becoming oppressive.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 6,370

    Flying needs to be expensive.

    We've seen how oppressive cheap flyers can be.

    we found the new target of the witch hunt! Hide your Great Eagles people! Bring Dragons only until the Witch Hunter is gone.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 1,669


    Yea but rippers aren't touting handguns or steam guns in the sky nor do they have terror.

    Rippers has AP and massive 56 charge bonus(and flyer always get charge). They are definitely better than Vargheists for example.
  • PussyslayerXDDPussyslayerXDD Registered Users Posts: 40
    Is solar engine so good to warrant a price increase? It's a great debuff since you dont risk to hit your units anymore, but its damage is very modest since is mostly non ap, with low range and it misses surprisingly often, ive seen that thing miss shaggots, mammmoths and even chariots standing still!

    I m not sure saurus spear will ever be a sensible choice but they could use some stats for sure

    Agree on skinks, they trade very poorly against line infantry, i wouldnt mind if poison was removed for some better stats, since poison is such an omni present tool for LM (and it would make then synergize with Ten too)

    The only good thing nakai has going for him its his item, his damage and his sick animations

    Someone mentioned the impossiblity to bring double slann, but outide cancer blob builds, kroak problem is that hes useless against anything but infantry and cavalry, not to mention the slow spells. You have to nuke a lot of infantry to get your money back. Greater shield is bonkers tho.

    Rypper are indeed very expensive, you can bring 2 terradon riders for the price of 1, its hard to justify bringing them since while incredibly dangerous to infantry they re also incredibliy fragile. Also, no rocks.

    Manticore is the same crap like FT from lore of metal, its about time those one trick spells gets nerfed across all lores and given buffs to the underperforming ones, beasts lore is such in a sorry state.


    Nobody mentioned engine of the gods? Or even the meme of sotek? im shocked,
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,182


    Nobody mentioned engine of the gods? Or even the meme of sotek? im shocked,

    Both engine of noobs and garbage of sotek r utterless less and among the most trashiest units in game.

    Both r beyond redemption, much like the state of trash guards. So basically not really worth mentioning.

    Everyone knows they r some of the worst units in game, sort of those blacksheep everyone knows and dont really wanna take about it, coz theres literally 0 possibility of them ever being viable in mp. More of a campaign unit
    https://imgur.com/a/Cj4b9
    Top #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
  • Noob_for_LifeNoob_for_Life Registered Users Posts: 210

    Is solar engine so good to warrant a price increase? It's a great debuff since you dont risk to hit your units anymore, but its damage is very modest since is mostly non ap, with low range and it misses surprisingly often, ive seen that thing miss shaggots, mammmoths and even chariots standing still!

    I m not sure saurus spear will ever be a sensible choice but they could use some stats for sure

    Agree on skinks, they trade very poorly against line infantry, i wouldnt mind if poison was removed for some better stats, since poison is such an omni present tool for LM (and it would make then synergize with Ten too)

    The only good thing nakai has going for him its his item, his damage and his sick animations

    Someone mentioned the impossiblity to bring double slann, but outide cancer blob builds, kroak problem is that hes useless against anything but infantry and cavalry, not to mention the slow spells. You have to nuke a lot of infantry to get your money back. Greater shield is bonkers tho.

    Rypper are indeed very expensive, you can bring 2 terradon riders for the price of 1, its hard to justify bringing them since while incredibly dangerous to infantry they re also incredibliy fragile. Also, no rocks.

    Manticore is the same crap like FT from lore of metal, its about time those one trick spells gets nerfed across all lores and given buffs to the underperforming ones, beasts lore is such in a sorry state.


    Nobody mentioned engine of the gods? Or even the meme of sotek? im shocked,

    Honestly threw all the nerfs on there so I didn’t just look like I was going for buffs.

    For the solar engine I would say it could use plus 50 though especially with how strong the debuff is. The shots might be mostly non-AP but there still strong enough to blast holes in cav and infantry formations. Plus the thing is a monster so is usually gets to use most of not all it’s ammo then you got a bastilidon for melee combat. Also was to just more even up the prices between Solar Engine and Ancient Sally.

    I'am open to the idea of dropping poison on red crests for better stats or just cheaper units. LM really does have enough poison already.

    As for the Engine of the Gods and Ark of Sotek i just didn't see CA actually doing anything with them.

    Ark could obviously do more damage with it's useless AoE ability or just get a rework to it altogether.

    As for the Engine of the Gods i don't think it's awful but could use shorter cast time and plus 10m to radius for it's ward save.
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