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Foot Squires are one of the least cost effective units in the game and serve almost no purpose.

user_clueuser_clue Registered Users Posts: 7
edited June 29 in Balancing Discussions
At 675 points these guys are in a really weird place, sandwiched in between 2 units that do their job better than them.

They can't beat a single infantry unit that's more expensive than them. The best example of this are Long Beards. They are only 25 points more and Foot squires should theoretically counter them. They're an armored unit without primary armor piecing. Squires with their armor and AP damage plus their dedicated anti infantry role should theoretically win, but they don't.
You can't even really expect to get your money's worth either. Silverin Guard don't have primary AP and are designed to work against large targets, and squires cant even remove their martial prowess regardless of whether the unit is braced or not. I think the only exception are forsaken.

The only infantry they can beat are ones that are less expensive than them, and they aren't very good at that either. They'll lose to rangers, orcs (savage and civilized), and even battle pilgrims on their own roster with those units are anywhere from 75-225 points cheaper. They also struggle against units with great weapons like marauders and dwarfs warriors who will usually earn value fighting them. But why would pay for them to clear chaff? Battle pilgrims are 75 points less and perform equal or better than squires against cheap units with the only exception being corsairs (a unit that KE can also beat for only 25 points more). BP also have the benefit of ItP and more missile resistance.

At 675 points they just don't fill a role. BP are cheaper and better against chaff and Knights Errant are almost the same price and do better against elite infantry.

I'm not sure if it's because they're over priced or under powered but right they don't serve a purpose on the roster and cant even do what they're designed to do.
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Comments

  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 4,031
    edited June 30
    it is because bretonnia should have weak infantry aesthetic in lore. but bretonnia was never truly fleshed out, so they are eternally ****.


    brets need a dlc bad
    Post edited by kasunrathnatunga on
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 6,370
    I sincerely doubt Foot Squires lose to Savage Orcs.

    Also Dwarf infantry is bad comparison as almost every Dwarf unit is overtuned to account for lack of magic and cavalry/monsters.
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 4,031
    Green0 said:

    I sincerely doubt Foot Squires lose to Savage Orcs.

    Also Dwarf infantry is bad comparison as almost every Dwarf unit is overtuned to account for lack of magic and cavalry/monsters.

    the might lose if waaagh active or get a good charge off. its not like FS have amazing armour value
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • BastileanBastilean Registered Users Posts: 440
    Green0 said:

    I sincerely doubt Foot Squires lose to Savage Orcs.

    Also Dwarf infantry is bad comparison as almost every Dwarf unit is overtuned to account for lack of magic and cavalry/monsters.

    Weren't you the one who just started a buff Foot Squire thread?
  • user_clueuser_clue Registered Users Posts: 7
    Green0 said:

    I sincerely doubt Foot Squires lose to Savage Orcs.

    Also Dwarf infantry is bad comparison as almost every Dwarf unit is overtuned to account for lack of magic and cavalry/monsters.

    I was surprised too. I tested in a few times and the Savages won more than they lost. They didn't need Whaagh. The normal Orcs lost 3/10 but with the Whaagh popped 2 min into the test they won 6/10. It's really finicky and more tests may lead to a different result.
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 1,845
    edited June 30
    I suggest them to get buff , make it 750 gold with appropriate stats


    Bret has too many low tier units. Even at 750 as bret's best is still the lowest compare to other factions' elite. Even skv have better elites...
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,130
    edited June 30
    Green0 said:

    I sincerely doubt Foot Squires lose to Savage Orcs.

    Also Dwarf infantry is bad comparison as almost every Dwarf unit is overtuned to account for lack of magic and cavalry/monsters.

    Inappropriate Comment removed.

    As for foot squires yeah they suffer as being not really armoured so anything can kill them and being sub par for the price when once upon a time they were very good for the price. A case of over nerfing. They still punch down ok but there aren’t many armoured units that are downwind from them.

    I suspect they may be decent Vs armoured ap infantry like greatswords since the ap is partially wasted but I haven’t tested it in a while, with or without chevrons.

    I assume their main intended purpose is to trade decently with armoured halbards at this point. And frankly their as elite as Brett inf gets so there’s always som purpose to them.

    Post edited by dge1 on
  • GreenColouredGreenColoured Registered Users Posts: 650
    It's BRETTONIAN infantry. They're supposed to be ****. You're supposed to be upping your cavalry game if you're Brettonia.
  • The_real_FAUSTThe_real_FAUST Registered Users Posts: 770
    edited June 30
    The only units you are realistically interested in foot Squires doing well against is Halberds.

    Marauders etc. are not a concern for Bretonnia and shouldn't be the focal point for foot Squires.

    Armoured anti large infantry - which is almost always expensive is their target and their low MD is of less issue against the low Base MA of halberds

    Using them against any other type of infantry is a waste and misuse- you have Knights errant or battle pilgrims for such units.

    They are a niche unit and certainly not for a whole frontline.
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 4,031

    The only units you are realistically interested in foot Squires doing well against is Halberds.

    Marauders etc. are not a concern for Bretonnia and shouldn't be the focal point for foot Squires.

    Armoured anti large infantry - which is almost always expensive is their target and their low MD is of less issue against the low Base MA of halberds

    Using them against any other type of infantry is a waste and misuse- you have Knights errant or battle pilgrims for such units.

    They are a niche unit and certainly not for a whole frontline.

    All the high teir helberds eat foot squires for lunch. Its not even funny.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 4,031

    It's BRETTONIAN infantry. They're supposed to be ****. You're supposed to be upping your cavalry game if you're Brettonia.

    What is the one unit in bret roster that you absolutely can not leave behind. Peasent archers.

    Sometimes you know you wish your front line will hold for more than 10s.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • Meteor18Meteor18 Registered Users Posts: 157

    The only units you are realistically interested in foot Squires doing well against is Halberds.

    Marauders etc. are not a concern for Bretonnia and shouldn't be the focal point for foot Squires.

    Armoured anti large infantry - which is almost always expensive is their target and their low MD is of less issue against the low Base MA of halberds

    Using them against any other type of infantry is a waste and misuse- you have Knights errant or battle pilgrims for such units.

    They are a niche unit and certainly not for a whole frontline.

    All the high teir helberds eat foot squires for lunch. Its not even funny.
    The high tier halberds cost more than twice as much as Foot Squires. Of course they beat Foot Squires.
  • WitchbladeWitchblade Registered Users Posts: 594
    These test results surprise me. I haven't tested them since their last nerf, but before that they traded very cost-effectively with temple guard, saurus and many other units. Their stats are really abysmal though, to the point of being incredulous. 20 MD is only 3 points higher than handgunners... They have -6 MD and -2 MA compared to men-at-arms and knights errant. That's just silly. I recommend making their stats the same as knight errants, which I think makes perfect sense lore wise, and increasing their cost accordingly. They would still be wholly inferior to greatswords. Concretely:
    + 1 MA
    + 6 MD
    + 10 armor
    + 50? gold (25 g of this buff should be free for currently being undertuned)
  • The_real_FAUSTThe_real_FAUST Registered Users Posts: 770

    The only units you are realistically interested in foot Squires doing well against is Halberds.

    Marauders etc. are not a concern for Bretonnia and shouldn't be the focal point for foot Squires.

    Armoured anti large infantry - which is almost always expensive is their target and their low MD is of less issue against the low Base MA of halberds

    Using them against any other type of infantry is a waste and misuse- you have Knights errant or battle pilgrims for such units.

    They are a niche unit and certainly not for a whole frontline.

    All the high teir helberds eat foot squires for lunch. Its not even funny.
    They aren't meant to beat chosen halberds, black guard, phoenix guard alone.

    They do however do decent damage to them and pose a threat enabling bret cav to run rampant
  • UagrimUagrim Registered Users Posts: 1,002

    The only units you are realistically interested in foot Squires doing well against is Halberds.

    Marauders etc. are not a concern for Bretonnia and shouldn't be the focal point for foot Squires.

    Armoured anti large infantry - which is almost always expensive is their target and their low MD is of less issue against the low Base MA of halberds

    Using them against any other type of infantry is a waste and misuse- you have Knights errant or battle pilgrims for such units.

    They are a niche unit and certainly not for a whole frontline.

    All the high teir helberds eat foot squires for lunch. Its not even funny.
    They aren't meant to beat chosen halberds, black guard, phoenix guard alone.

    They do however do decent damage to them and pose a threat enabling bret cav to run rampant
    Do they do decent damage to them?

    Like I don't think they have the punch needed to do much against the high MD of elite halberds.
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Registered Users Posts: 1,549
    I think another issue for foot squires is lack of support. Two of their stronger for cost features are ws and charge bonus. The problem is that their ma is so awful that they cant hit worth a damn to use that ws and of brettonias 3 lores of magic, not a single one has md debuffs, and only one has a single target ma buff. Theres a handful of lord bound md debuffs/ma buffs but your lord probably isnt fighting in the midst of your infantry, and if its something like the fay then shes using favor on a high end unit like hippos.
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  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 2,474
    Yeah they need +5 MD and +10 armour with some cost increase. They could be a 750g unit. Right now they are just bad. BP are much more useful and pretty good in skaven, VP, TK MUs.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,182
    +$25
    +4 def

    is really all the need, anything more is just unnecessary changing the entire identity of the unit

    Pilgrim should also get a -$25 to further separate the two. They r far too close atm
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  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 1,845
    edited June 30

    These test results surprise me. I haven't tested them since their last nerf, but before that they traded very cost-effectively with temple guard, saurus and many other units. Their stats are really abysmal though, to the point of being incredulous. 20 MD is only 3 points higher than handgunners... They have -6 MD and -2 MA compared to men-at-arms and knights errant. That's just silly. I recommend making their stats the same as knight errants, which I think makes perfect sense lore wise, and increasing their cost accordingly. They would still be wholly inferior to greatswords. Concretely:
    + 1 MA
    + 6 MD
    + 10 armor
    + 50? gold (25 g of this buff should be free for currently being undertuned)

    Saurus/tg is one of the best targets for foot squires
    But foot squires terrible ma cant do anything to large targets

    I suggest 750,mainly more MA and a bid md

    Beastslayers to 950, get itp and a but more stats

    I think beastslayers are the only ror in the game without any speciality. Asfaik evwry ror has something like frenzy/magic damage/ armor sundering to make them unique
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 1,845
    Heres what i wrote in my thread

    It has been discussed a bit before, but I want to open a specific thread about. It has been in my mind for a while too.

    Foot squires are cost effective in fighting armored infantry which is nice. But I find their powerlevel is still too low as your best infantry. It would be more cost effective in dealing with higher tier infantry if Foot squire's price was moved to 750 and its power level accordingly instead of getting 675 gold foot squire getting chevroned or other units to support it at the same cost This would help them a lot as Bretonnia's weakness is dealing armored anti large infantry with SEM.

    The grave guard buffs set a precedent for this kind of change.

    Being 750 is still the weakest elite tier infantry in the game, firmly still bretonnian's theme. Even TK/SKV have better infantry

    At this price, I would like it be focused on higher MA/MD. Foot squires are terrible at fighting anything besides infantry because of low MA without Bonus vs Infantry. Buffing their MA could make them slightly more generalist while still helping its job at chopping armored infantry.
    MD just so it could do their job longer.

    The Foot Squire ROR, beastslayer of bastonne would naturally be more expensive. From seeing 750 units having 9 chevron costing 1055(mirror guard costing 950 instead) Let's say the new beastslayer would cost 950/1000 .

    Having the name beast slayer, it would be fitting for them to get immune to psychology in dealing with beast and a little stats boost in other categories since I don't think ITP alone cost 100/150 (850 increase to 950/1000)
    Having Immune to Psychology would be a good interesting anchor unit for bretonnia. Currently, their pick rate is quite low, partially Questing Knights being basically essential for bretonnia right now.


    Edit: This change also helps bretonnia not to be countered so easily because of their current heavy reliance of cavalry. This could spread out their strength into different categories
  • GreenColouredGreenColoured Registered Users Posts: 650




    Edit: This change also helps bretonnia not to be countered so easily because of their current heavy reliance of cavalry. This could spread out their strength into different categories


    You forget you're talking about Brettonia here. Their non-cavalry units are deliberately trash for good reason.
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 4,031




    Edit: This change also helps bretonnia not to be countered so easily because of their current heavy reliance of cavalry. This could spread out their strength into different categories


    You forget you're talking about Brettonia here. Their non-cavalry units are deliberately trash for good reason.
    stop putting out misinformation, bretonnia totally can have half decent infantry
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 1,845




    Edit: This change also helps bretonnia not to be countered so easily because of their current heavy reliance of cavalry. This could spread out their strength into different categories


    You forget you're talking about Brettonia here. Their non-cavalry units are deliberately trash for good reason.
    Doesnt have to be THAT trash

    when skv/vp/tk have better elites and chaffs than bret, i think its over the top
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 4,031
    edited June 30
    I am tired of bretonnia getting you can't have more culture. I demand we get squires from 5th eddition sword and long bow.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 4,031
    edited June 30
    why can't i copy images here
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 4,031
    edited June 30
    ok here is the squire from 5th edition bret army book and emp. great swords from 4th edition since they used this army book in TT for 5 th edition as well.


    https://ibb.co/FsLQRr8
    https://ibb.co/yhQwvKr
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 4,031
    squires and great swords had exact same stat in their edition of relevance
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • outrage4outrage4 Registered Users Posts: 54
    Squires seem like a decent unit just like grail knights, royal hippo knights and other units people often describe to be underpowered in brettonian roster.

    Althought i think bret does lack higher tier melee AP infantry to deal with speats/halberds cost effectively but such problems can only be solved by adding new units with DLC. Squires in thier current state are not bad neither are grail knights, RHK, mounted yeomen.

    Bret roster is really limited in playstyles and counters to certain units, but current options are good for the most part.

    The best way to improve this faction is adding new unit's and not changing excisting, espessially if they are already viable.
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 2,474
    viable against what? they are pretty bad.
  • mightygloinmightygloin Registered Users Posts: 2,570
    edited June 30
    Their MD is too low. Rest is good imo.

    Also that weapon switch feature from Troy might suit them greatly since they carry sword & board on their backs.
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