White lions a bit too strong right now

eumaies#1128

I tested with a friend, 10-vs-10, 10 full length greatswords vs 10 full length white lions, each with 3 chevrons so they cost 900 each, equal to the greatswords.

The win count was 5-5.

Greatswords have 22% more HP, white lions have 30% missile resist and +5 speed and forest strider.

White lions have martial prowess disadvantage. Greatswords have bonus vs infantry disadvantage.

I don't think this is how these units should be stacking up, and I don't consider greatswords to be terrible units. They're medium quality, but with their bonus vs infantry they can reliably punch above their weight in these kind of head to heads.

Simply put, the buff to white lions was a little too much and it synergizes too well with martial prowess.

Recomment -2MD, +2CB to undo half of the buff they got. Which was to keep up with silverins anyway, who got the nerf they needed.

Or you could buff greatswords, chaos warriors GW, longbeards GW, and any other "underperforming" units in this class by the equivalent. But I don't think they're the issue.

The_real_FAUST#6885

Here we go another 10 pager..

Yes I agree. In a similar vein to silverin and Rangers they are just a little underpriced.

White Lions are an 850 gold unit underpriced at 800.

With the addition of rangers HE no longer need a special discount on this generalist unit.

Their additional traits and abilities are worth a significant amount of gold and their versatility is second to none.

No, they do not specialise and excell in any one niche. They excel by their sheer utility and versatility. They are a very very well rounded unit.

850 is very fair and even then CWGW will still feel hard done by.

Wtfah114

give them more buffs and up their price to 1100-1200 range now that rangers are here there is no reason to keep white lions a mid tier infantry

mightygloin#2446

Noob_for_Life#5674

The_real_FAUST said:

Here we go another 10 pager..

Yes I agree. In a similar vein to silverin and Rangers they are just a little underpriced.

White Lions are an 850 gold unit underpriced at 800.

With the addition of rangers HE no longer need a special discount on this generalist unit.

Their additional traits and abilities are worth a significant amount of gold and their versatility is second to none.

No, they do not specialise and excell in any one niche. They excel by their sheer utility and versatility. They are a very very well rounded unit.

850 is very fair and even then CWGW will still feel hard done by.

I disagree with another price increase a like Eumaies suggestion though.

griffithx#1314

eumaies said:

I tested with a friend, 10-vs-10, 10 full length greatswords vs 10 full length white lions, each with 3 chevrons so they cost 900 each, equal to the greatswords.

The win count was 5-5.

Greatswords have 22% more HP, white lions have 30% missile resist and +5 speed and forest strider.

White lions have martial prowess disadvantage. Greatswords have bonus vs infantry disadvantage.

I don't think this is how these units should be stacking up, and I don't consider greatswords to be terrible units. They're medium quality, but with their bonus vs infantry they can reliably punch above their weight in these kind of head to heads.

Simply put, the buff to white lions was a little too much and it synergizes too well with martial prowess.

Recomment -2MD, +2CB to undo half of the buff they got. Which was to keep up with silverins anyway, who got the nerf they needed.

Or you could buff greatswords, chaos warriors GW, longbeards GW, and any other "underperforming" units in this class by the equivalent. But I don't think they're the issue.

Yea that lays it out perfectly. MD for these units is so strong because it buffs them exponentially in melee combat since increasing their defense increases the length of their Martial prowess....all on moderately priced unit with no real glaring weaknesses.

Loupi#8512

I dont get why people test with chevrons, it makes no sense. Test the base unit

TheShiroOfDalton

Loupi_ said:

I dont get why people test with chevrons, it makes no sense. Test the base unit

It gives you a better idea what bang you get for your buck compared to other units in the same tier.

Loupi#8512

Ephraim_Dalton said:

Loupi_ said:

I dont get why people test with chevrons, it makes no sense. Test the base unit

It gives you a better idea what bang you get for your buck compared to other units in the same tier.

no it just warps the test usually and makes comparing units even harder

griffithx#1314

Loupi_ said:

Ephraim_Dalton said:

Loupi_ said:

I dont get why people test with chevrons, it makes no sense. Test the base unit

It gives you a better idea what bang you get for your buck compared to other units in the same tier.

no it just warps the test usually and makes comparing units even harder

How does testing units at the closest price instead of testing them with a larger price difference "warp the test"?
It is not like chevrons cannot be used in real games of all types......

Loupi#8512

Griffithxi said:

Loupi_ said:

Ephraim_Dalton said:

Loupi_ said:

I dont get why people test with chevrons, it makes no sense. Test the base unit

It gives you a better idea what bang you get for your buck compared to other units in the same tier.

no it just warps the test usually and makes comparing units even harder

How does testing units at the closest price instead of testing them with a larger price difference "warp the test"?
It is not like chevrons cannot be used in real games of all types......

because then you're not testing the actual units. Besides who is gonna spend 100g chevroning white lions?

I think its really silly to say "when i spend an extra 100 gold on unit X and it draws with a unit the same cost, then the unit X is OP". That just a false conclusion.

eumaies#1128

Loupi_ said:

Griffithxi said:

Loupi_ said:

Ephraim_Dalton said:

Loupi_ said:

I dont get why people test with chevrons, it makes no sense. Test the base unit

It gives you a better idea what bang you get for your buck compared to other units in the same tier.

no it just warps the test usually and makes comparing units even harder

How does testing units at the closest price instead of testing them with a larger price difference "warp the test"?
It is not like chevrons cannot be used in real games of all types......

because then you're not testing the actual units. Besides who is gonna spend 100g chevroning white lions?

I think its really silly to say "when i spend an extra 100 gold on unit X and it draws with a unit the same cost, then the unit X is OP". That just a false conclusion.

Anyone who wants to trade fine with greatswords but doesn't want to invest in swordmasters who are a bigger risk vs other things would chevron white lions.

Chevrons are generally inneficient. They're a conservative way of comparing the performance options of a faction with a clearly overly strong unit, by equal pricing with chevrons.

I could test white lions vs greatswords, meticulously calculate the hit points they kill (quite a lot given all the factors at play), and then try to explain to you why that's OP while you seize on any pretext to argue that x HP remaining is somehow "just what you'd expect" for greatswords vs white lions at base.

Or i can handicap the white lions with an overpriced 3 chevrons, make them equal price, and show that even with this handicap HE have the option with this unit of completely over-topping the infantry options of empire with none of the risk of taking elite-tier or elite cost units. OR they can take 800 point white lions and beat things cheaper than that with no problem at all. A chevroned unit is a unit HE have access to in their roster. If you want to test basic greatswords vs basic white lions and calculate the average HP remaining and report that here and defend that performance, go nuts with that exhausting and unnecessary exercise.

eumaies#1128

and for the record i chevron units all the time. When it's the right unit matchup you want to be ready for, for example by buffing the MD of a unit with martial prowess, it's a viable option. And since it's an option, it's a unit you have in your roster.

unless you think the problem with white lions is their chevrons are too inexpensive, the results are clear.

Loupi#8512

eumaies said:

Loupi_ said:

Griffithxi said:

Loupi_ said:

Ephraim_Dalton said:

Loupi_ said:

I dont get why people test with chevrons, it makes no sense. Test the base unit

It gives you a better idea what bang you get for your buck compared to other units in the same tier.

no it just warps the test usually and makes comparing units even harder

How does testing units at the closest price instead of testing them with a larger price difference "warp the test"?
It is not like chevrons cannot be used in real games of all types......

because then you're not testing the actual units. Besides who is gonna spend 100g chevroning white lions?

I think its really silly to say "when i spend an extra 100 gold on unit X and it draws with a unit the same cost, then the unit X is OP". That just a false conclusion.

Anyone who wants to trade fine with greatswords but doesn't want to invest in swordmasters who are a bigger risk vs other things would chevron white lions.

Chevrons are generally inneficient. They're a conservative way of comparing the performance options of a faction with a clearly overly strong unit, by equal pricing with chevrons.

I could test white lions vs greatswords, meticulously calculate the hit points they kill (quite a lot given all the factors at play), and then try to explain to you why that's OP while you seize on any pretext to argue that x HP remaining is somehow "just what you'd expect" for greatswords vs white lions at base.

Or i can handicap the white lions with an overpriced 3 chevrons, make them equal price, and show that even with this handicap HE have the option with this unit of completely over-topping the infantry options of empire with none of the risk of taking elite-tier or elite cost units. OR they can take 800 point white lions and beat things cheaper than that with no problem at all. A chevroned unit is a unit HE have access to in their roster. If you want to test basic greatswords vs basic white lions and calculate the average HP remaining and report that here and defend that performance, go nuts with that exhausting and unnecessary exercise.

well its you claiming they are OP so really you should be the one doing that "meticulous testing".

How far do you want to take this. chevron footsquires up to 900 and they win 50% of the time vs greatswords, so I guess they are OP too. longbeard GW also beat them ~3/4 so another clearly OP unit.

eumaies#1128

Loupi_ said:

eumaies said:

Loupi_ said:

Griffithxi said:

Loupi_ said:

Ephraim_Dalton said:

Loupi_ said:

I dont get why people test with chevrons, it makes no sense. Test the base unit

It gives you a better idea what bang you get for your buck compared to other units in the same tier.

no it just warps the test usually and makes comparing units even harder

How does testing units at the closest price instead of testing them with a larger price difference "warp the test"?
It is not like chevrons cannot be used in real games of all types......

because then you're not testing the actual units. Besides who is gonna spend 100g chevroning white lions?

I think its really silly to say "when i spend an extra 100 gold on unit X and it draws with a unit the same cost, then the unit X is OP". That just a false conclusion.

Anyone who wants to trade fine with greatswords but doesn't want to invest in swordmasters who are a bigger risk vs other things would chevron white lions.

Chevrons are generally inneficient. They're a conservative way of comparing the performance options of a faction with a clearly overly strong unit, by equal pricing with chevrons.

I could test white lions vs greatswords, meticulously calculate the hit points they kill (quite a lot given all the factors at play), and then try to explain to you why that's OP while you seize on any pretext to argue that x HP remaining is somehow "just what you'd expect" for greatswords vs white lions at base.

Or i can handicap the white lions with an overpriced 3 chevrons, make them equal price, and show that even with this handicap HE have the option with this unit of completely over-topping the infantry options of empire with none of the risk of taking elite-tier or elite cost units. OR they can take 800 point white lions and beat things cheaper than that with no problem at all. A chevroned unit is a unit HE have access to in their roster. If you want to test basic greatswords vs basic white lions and calculate the average HP remaining and report that here and defend that performance, go nuts with that exhausting and unnecessary exercise.

well its you claiming they are OP so really you should be the one doing that "meticulous testing".

How far do you want to take this. chevron footsquires up to 900 and they win 50% of the time vs greatswords, so I guess they are OP too.

Like I said go do your own analysis. I took the time to do a rigorous test with a friend.

If rank 9 foot squires beat greatswords that’s entirely a tool Brett’s should consider. That’s the best infantry they can field, rank 9 foot squires.

Loupi#8512

eumaies said:

Loupi_ said:

eumaies said:

Loupi_ said:

Griffithxi said:

Loupi_ said:

Ephraim_Dalton said:

Loupi_ said:

I dont get why people test with chevrons, it makes no sense. Test the base unit

It gives you a better idea what bang you get for your buck compared to other units in the same tier.

no it just warps the test usually and makes comparing units even harder

How does testing units at the closest price instead of testing them with a larger price difference "warp the test"?
It is not like chevrons cannot be used in real games of all types......

because then you're not testing the actual units. Besides who is gonna spend 100g chevroning white lions?

I think its really silly to say "when i spend an extra 100 gold on unit X and it draws with a unit the same cost, then the unit X is OP". That just a false conclusion.

Anyone who wants to trade fine with greatswords but doesn't want to invest in swordmasters who are a bigger risk vs other things would chevron white lions.

Chevrons are generally inneficient. They're a conservative way of comparing the performance options of a faction with a clearly overly strong unit, by equal pricing with chevrons.

I could test white lions vs greatswords, meticulously calculate the hit points they kill (quite a lot given all the factors at play), and then try to explain to you why that's OP while you seize on any pretext to argue that x HP remaining is somehow "just what you'd expect" for greatswords vs white lions at base.

Or i can handicap the white lions with an overpriced 3 chevrons, make them equal price, and show that even with this handicap HE have the option with this unit of completely over-topping the infantry options of empire with none of the risk of taking elite-tier or elite cost units. OR they can take 800 point white lions and beat things cheaper than that with no problem at all. A chevroned unit is a unit HE have access to in their roster. If you want to test basic greatswords vs basic white lions and calculate the average HP remaining and report that here and defend that performance, go nuts with that exhausting and unnecessary exercise.

well its you claiming they are OP so really you should be the one doing that "meticulous testing".

How far do you want to take this. chevron footsquires up to 900 and they win 50% of the time vs greatswords, so I guess they are OP too.

Like I said go do your own analysis. I took the time to do a rigorous test with a friend.

If rank 9 foot squires beat greatswords that’s entirely a tool Brett’s should consider. That’s the best infantry they can field, rank 9 foot squires.

I did, longbeard GW are clearly OP using your "methodology"

eumaies#1128

I’m intrigued you found a use for them. Do they beat chevroned foot squires or something? If so that would indicate foot squires really really suck, given how weak longbeards gw are.

Loupi#8512

eumaies said:

I’m intrigued you found a use for them. Do they beat chevroned foot squires or something? If so that would indicate foot squires really really suck, given how weak longbeards gw are.

go do your own analysis

eumaies#1128

Loupi_ said:

eumaies said:

I’m intrigued you found a use for them. Do they beat chevroned foot squires or something? If so that would indicate foot squires really really suck, given how weak longbeards gw are.

go do your own analysis

So... no data, no method you would recommend, no criteria for what’s balanced Vs not as a result of your preferred method, no actual counterpoint to my results. Very persuasive. I can tell you thought this through.

Loupi#8512

eumaies said:

Loupi_ said:

eumaies said:

I’m intrigued you found a use for them. Do they beat chevroned foot squires or something? If so that would indicate foot squires really really suck, given how weak longbeards gw are.

go do your own analysis

So... no data, no method you would recommend, no criteria for what’s balanced Vs not as a result of your preferred method, no actual counterpoint to my results. Very persuasive. I can tell you thought this through.

I did it exactly the way you did, chevroned longbeard GW upto ~900 anf they beat greatswords 3/4, like i said above.

I thought I made mysefl clear when I said the best way to test 2 units is unchevroned. Beyond that you can can add the the HP lost and kills on both sides and try to come up with some cost efficiency value and determine whether its OP in a vacuum that way.

Or you use experience and actual competitive battles to see if they are somehow dominating

eumaies#1128

Loupi_ said:

eumaies said:

Loupi_ said:

eumaies said:

I’m intrigued you found a use for them. Do they beat chevroned foot squires or something? If so that would indicate foot squires really really suck, given how weak longbeards gw are.

go do your own analysis

So... no data, no method you would recommend, no criteria for what’s balanced Vs not as a result of your preferred method, no actual counterpoint to my results. Very persuasive. I can tell you thought this through.

I did it exactly the way you did, chevroned longbeard GW upto ~900 anf they beat greatswords 3/4, like i said above.

I thought I made mysefl clear when I said the best way to test 2 units is unchevroned. Beyond that you can can add the the HP lost and kills on both sides and try to come up with some cost efficiency value and determine whether its OP in a vacuum that way.

Or you use experience and actual competitive battles to see if they are somehow dominating

Ok well you’ve been post editing your comments so I had no idea what you’re talking about.

That’s a useful data point. Maybe greatswords are worse than I thought. But I will test myself a bit to confirm.

It’s not irrelevant dwarfs can beat greatswords cost effectively with an infantry unit that has charge defense Vs large. Well it’s irrelevant only because dwarfs have so many other ways to beat empire... But I’m surprised by the result.

griffithx#1314

Loupi_ said:

Griffithxi said:

Loupi_ said:

Ephraim_Dalton said:

Loupi_ said:

I dont get why people test with chevrons, it makes no sense. Test the base unit

It gives you a better idea what bang you get for your buck compared to other units in the same tier.

no it just warps the test usually and makes comparing units even harder

How does testing units at the closest price instead of testing them with a larger price difference "warp the test"?
It is not like chevrons cannot be used in real games of all types......

because then you're not testing the actual units. Besides who is gonna spend 100g chevroning white lions?

I think its really silly to say "when i spend an extra 100 gold on unit X and it draws with a unit the same cost, then the unit X is OP". That just a false conclusion.

Do you remember before they nerfed unshielded empire spearmen when people were bringing them with chevrons in tournaments?

Loupi#8512

Griffithxi said:

Loupi_ said:

Griffithxi said:

Loupi_ said:

Ephraim_Dalton said:

Loupi_ said:

I dont get why people test with chevrons, it makes no sense. Test the base unit

It gives you a better idea what bang you get for your buck compared to other units in the same tier.

no it just warps the test usually and makes comparing units even harder

How does testing units at the closest price instead of testing them with a larger price difference "warp the test"?
It is not like chevrons cannot be used in real games of all types......

because then you're not testing the actual units. Besides who is gonna spend 100g chevroning white lions?

I think its really silly to say "when i spend an extra 100 gold on unit X and it draws with a unit the same cost, then the unit X is OP". That just a false conclusion.

Do you remember before they nerfed unshielded empire spearmen when people were bringing them with chevrons in tournaments?

yeah so chevrons are very cost efficient on cheap troops who knew.

griffithx#1314

Loupi_ said:

Griffithxi said:

Loupi_ said:

Griffithxi said:

Loupi_ said:

Ephraim_Dalton said:

Loupi_ said:

I dont get why people test with chevrons, it makes no sense. Test the base unit

It gives you a better idea what bang you get for your buck compared to other units in the same tier.

no it just warps the test usually and makes comparing units even harder

How does testing units at the closest price instead of testing them with a larger price difference "warp the test"?
It is not like chevrons cannot be used in real games of all types......

because then you're not testing the actual units. Besides who is gonna spend 100g chevroning white lions?

I think its really silly to say "when i spend an extra 100 gold on unit X and it draws with a unit the same cost, then the unit X is OP". That just a false conclusion.

Do you remember before they nerfed unshielded empire spearmen when people were bringing them with chevrons in tournaments?

yeah so chevrons are very cost efficient on cheap troops who knew.

The point is chevrons are not irrelevant in real games. Both data points chevroned and un chevroned tests are each relevant.

Loupi#8512

Griffithxi said:

Loupi_ said:

Griffithxi said:

Loupi_ said:

Griffithxi said:

Loupi_ said:

Ephraim_Dalton said:

Loupi_ said:

I dont get why people test with chevrons, it makes no sense. Test the base unit

It gives you a better idea what bang you get for your buck compared to other units in the same tier.

no it just warps the test usually and makes comparing units even harder

How does testing units at the closest price instead of testing them with a larger price difference "warp the test"?
It is not like chevrons cannot be used in real games of all types......

because then you're not testing the actual units. Besides who is gonna spend 100g chevroning white lions?

I think its really silly to say "when i spend an extra 100 gold on unit X and it draws with a unit the same cost, then the unit X is OP". That just a false conclusion.

Do you remember before they nerfed unshielded empire spearmen when people were bringing them with chevrons in tournaments?

yeah so chevrons are very cost efficient on cheap troops who knew.

The point is chevrons are not irrelevant in real games. Both data points chevroned and un chevroned tests are each relevant.

well then you should consider chevroned greatswords vs white lions

eumaies#1128

Loupi_ said:

Griffithxi said:

Loupi_ said:

Griffithxi said:

Loupi_ said:

Ephraim_Dalton said:

Loupi_ said:

I dont get why people test with chevrons, it makes no sense. Test the base unit

It gives you a better idea what bang you get for your buck compared to other units in the same tier.

no it just warps the test usually and makes comparing units even harder

How does testing units at the closest price instead of testing them with a larger price difference "warp the test"?
It is not like chevrons cannot be used in real games of all types......

because then you're not testing the actual units. Besides who is gonna spend 100g chevroning white lions?

I think its really silly to say "when i spend an extra 100 gold on unit X and it draws with a unit the same cost, then the unit X is OP". That just a false conclusion.

Do you remember before they nerfed unshielded empire spearmen when people were bringing them with chevrons in tournaments?

yeah so chevrons are very cost efficient on cheap troops who knew.

Chevrons are good when you want to create a wide stat imbalance vs particular units, either on offense or attack. People use them all the time, which is part of why it's a perfectly reasonable thing to test.

I tested the 5-chevron longbeards gw vs greatswords 4 times, got 2-2 results, which is closer than i expected. Was vs AI with width matching the AI formation.

A better test given the differences in model counts and charge bonuses of the units would be human vs human spaghetti as I did above. If you want to test that at some point let me know, or if I get a chance I will. It's a way to gauge whether the issue here is more greatswords weakness vs white lions strength.

eumaies#1128

Loupi_ said:

Griffithxi said:

Loupi_ said:

Griffithxi said:

Loupi_ said:

Griffithxi said:

Loupi_ said:

Ephraim_Dalton said:

Loupi_ said:

I dont get why people test with chevrons, it makes no sense. Test the base unit

It gives you a better idea what bang you get for your buck compared to other units in the same tier.

no it just warps the test usually and makes comparing units even harder

How does testing units at the closest price instead of testing them with a larger price difference "warp the test"?
It is not like chevrons cannot be used in real games of all types......

because then you're not testing the actual units. Besides who is gonna spend 100g chevroning white lions?

I think its really silly to say "when i spend an extra 100 gold on unit X and it draws with a unit the same cost, then the unit X is OP". That just a false conclusion.

Do you remember before they nerfed unshielded empire spearmen when people were bringing them with chevrons in tournaments?

yeah so chevrons are very cost efficient on cheap troops who knew.

The point is chevrons are not irrelevant in real games. Both data points chevroned and un chevroned tests are each relevant.

well then you should consider chevroned greatswords vs white lions

seriously that might be empire's best option. Throwing good money after bad in an attempt to take surprisingly elite infantry and over-top the elven martial prowess defense.

griffithx#1314

Loupi_ said:

Griffithxi said:

Loupi_ said:

Griffithxi said:

Loupi_ said:

Griffithxi said:

Loupi_ said:

Ephraim_Dalton said:

Loupi_ said:

I dont get why people test with chevrons, it makes no sense. Test the base unit

It gives you a better idea what bang you get for your buck compared to other units in the same tier.

no it just warps the test usually and makes comparing units even harder

How does testing units at the closest price instead of testing them with a larger price difference "warp the test"?
It is not like chevrons cannot be used in real games of all types......

because then you're not testing the actual units. Besides who is gonna spend 100g chevroning white lions?

I think its really silly to say "when i spend an extra 100 gold on unit X and it draws with a unit the same cost, then the unit X is OP". That just a false conclusion.

Do you remember before they nerfed unshielded empire spearmen when people were bringing them with chevrons in tournaments?

yeah so chevrons are very cost efficient on cheap troops who knew.

The point is chevrons are not irrelevant in real games. Both data points chevroned and un chevroned tests are each relevant.

well then you should consider chevroned greatswords vs white lions

Sure I see no problem with that chevron the greatswords up to whatever pricepoint that the whitelions can reach and chevron the whitelions up there too.

Loupi#8512

eumaies said:

Loupi_ said:

Griffithxi said:

Loupi_ said:

Griffithxi said:

Loupi_ said:

Ephraim_Dalton said:

Loupi_ said:

I dont get why people test with chevrons, it makes no sense. Test the base unit

It gives you a better idea what bang you get for your buck compared to other units in the same tier.

no it just warps the test usually and makes comparing units even harder

How does testing units at the closest price instead of testing them with a larger price difference "warp the test"?
It is not like chevrons cannot be used in real games of all types......

because then you're not testing the actual units. Besides who is gonna spend 100g chevroning white lions?

I think its really silly to say "when i spend an extra 100 gold on unit X and it draws with a unit the same cost, then the unit X is OP". That just a false conclusion.

Do you remember before they nerfed unshielded empire spearmen when people were bringing them with chevrons in tournaments?

yeah so chevrons are very cost efficient on cheap troops who knew.

Chevrons are good when you want to create a wide stat imbalance vs particular units, either on offense or attack. People use them all the time, which is part of why it's a perfectly reasonable thing to test.

I tested the 5-chevron longbeards gw vs greatswords 4 times, got 2-2 results, which is closer than i expected. Was vs AI with width matching the AI formation.

A better test given the differences in model counts and charge bonuses of the units would be human vs human spaghetti as I did above. If you want to test that at some point let me know, or if I get a chance I will. It's a way to gauge whether the issue here is more greatswords weakness vs white lions strength.

yes exactly, this is the sort of testing you should do before making a post claiming White lions are OP or it will look like you have decided that WL are OP a priori then find 1 data point that that can be interpreted in your favour.

eumaies#1128

Loupi_ said:

eumaies said:

Loupi_ said:

Griffithxi said:

Loupi_ said:

Griffithxi said:

Loupi_ said:

Ephraim_Dalton said:

Loupi_ said:

I dont get why people test with chevrons, it makes no sense. Test the base unit

It gives you a better idea what bang you get for your buck compared to other units in the same tier.

no it just warps the test usually and makes comparing units even harder

How does testing units at the closest price instead of testing them with a larger price difference "warp the test"?
It is not like chevrons cannot be used in real games of all types......

because then you're not testing the actual units. Besides who is gonna spend 100g chevroning white lions?

I think its really silly to say "when i spend an extra 100 gold on unit X and it draws with a unit the same cost, then the unit X is OP". That just a false conclusion.

Do you remember before they nerfed unshielded empire spearmen when people were bringing them with chevrons in tournaments?

yeah so chevrons are very cost efficient on cheap troops who knew.

Chevrons are good when you want to create a wide stat imbalance vs particular units, either on offense or attack. People use them all the time, which is part of why it's a perfectly reasonable thing to test.

I tested the 5-chevron longbeards gw vs greatswords 4 times, got 2-2 results, which is closer than i expected. Was vs AI with width matching the AI formation.

A better test given the differences in model counts and charge bonuses of the units would be human vs human spaghetti as I did above. If you want to test that at some point let me know, or if I get a chance I will. It's a way to gauge whether the issue here is more greatswords weakness vs white lions strength.

yes exactly, this is the sort of testing you should do before making a post claiming White lions are OP or it will look like you have decided that WL are OP a priori then find 1 data point that that can be interpreted in your favour.

That’s the kind of testing I did. Most posts on this forum don’t use data to back them up at all. And yes when I get around to it I’ll test properly the counterpoint you’re suggesting.