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Tested 10-10 5 chevron longbeards (907 cost) vs greatswords in sphaghetti formations with enticity. Greatswords won 8-2, with average (across all 10 combats, netting out the dwarf hp) with net 1000 hp advantage left.
Based on this, white lions appear to outperform longbeards GW on this metric.
Or loupi if you prefer it's trivial to show that "natural" white lions crush longbeards GW (800 vs 750). But i assume if i did show that it wouldn't matter how thoroughly they beat them, unless you have some metric in mind for what the outcome of that fight *should* be.
Why would you test ranked up White Lions? People don't bring those to QBs because chevrons don't increase HP and so on.
Test unranked WL and post results.
Anyway I agree Greatswords could use a small buff, like +1 Bvi +2 speed though I hear after latest buff they already beat CW GW.
White Lions I don't see as an issue currently, test them unchevroned and if they still beat Greatswords we can argue if they need nerfs.
obviously if unchevroned white lions beat a bonus vs infantry unit of the same class that costs 100 more than them while also being faster and with loose formation and missile resist, that would be absurdly OP. and obviously that's not the case.
Like i said in the post, if you want to buff greatswords, longbeards GW, and CW GW to keep pace with high elf units, I am fine with that too. I believe that's called power creep.
Beautiful, bern waiting for this for the past 2 months.
The inf line of helf r just absurd atm, they r even stronger than chaos. White lions r better yet cheaper than chaos warrior 2h.
They even do extremely well on ap anti inf specialists such as squires and greatswords. Completely elfed the beards out of longbeards 2h, tho the later is widely considered as some of the worst 2h in the game.
Vs saurus, tombs, graves, yet another onr of those stupid overtuned helf units that got everything on the package. Ap, armor, anti missile, speed, ld, absurb stats for dirt underpriced costs.
Futures bleak with ducks departure from the balance scene. Those new team gonr mad overtuning the entire faction
For what it's worth, I did do testing 10v10 a few weeks back of white lions chevroned vs chaos warriors GW, and in spaghetti lines the chaos warriors GW still win head to head. Which they better be given their speed and greater vulnerability to ranged.
I dont get why people test with chevrons, it makes no sense. Test the base unit
Doubt those fanbois even dared to test them vs choas war 2h, long beards 2h, saurus, tomb guards, the ENTIRE $750-$850 range. It will only show how stupid underpriced white lions r. Then again its no secret, everyone knows from the moment that patch arrives months ago.
For what it's worth, I did do testing 10v10 a few weeks back of white lions chevroned vs chaos warriors GW, and in spaghetti lines the chaos warriors GW still win head to head. Which they better be given their speed and greater vulnerability to ranged.
so WL lose to a unit they should should in theory lose to and somehow you still view them as OP? but then they beat some other unit they should beat which also makes them OP. nice when you can make any result support your conclusion, but thats the joy of testing in a vacuum.
Testing any unit in a vacuum gives only a very very small part of the whole picture. You really need to actually see how they perform in QB and tournaments to get a better view
For what it's worth, I did do testing 10v10 a few weeks back of white lions chevroned vs chaos warriors GW, and in spaghetti lines the chaos warriors GW still win head to head. Which they better be given their speed and greater vulnerability to ranged.
so WL lose to a unit they should should in theory lose to and somehow you still view them as OP? but then they beat some other unit they should beat which also makes them OP. nice when you can make any result support your conclusion, but thats the joy of testing in a vacuum.
Testing any unit in a vacuum gives only a very very small part of the whole picture. You really need to actually see how they perform in QB and tournaments to get a better view
1. I have of course played Vs the unit in all contexts and seen it (and used it) overperforming 2. I can see that your goal is to ignore data points you don’t like, and I’ve wasted my time testing things you requested.
I dont get why people test with chevrons, it makes no sense. Test the base unit
Doubt those fanbois even dared to test them vs choas war 2h, long beards 2h, saurus, tomb guards, the ENTIRE $750-$850 range. It will only show how stupid underpriced white lions r. Then again its no secret, everyone knows from the moment that patch arrives months ago.
I don't know why you'd test them against Greatswords. Why not test them against a similar unit like Chaos Warriors? They have a similar price and role. Greatswords are quite a bit more expensive and have a slightly different role. What about Longbeards with GWs? Heck I'd even argue Wildwood Rangers have more in common with WL than Greatswords do.
"Daemons are abroad again, and the servants of the foul gods march south with the storm at their backs. But as the winds of magic stir, other powers rise to contest it. I have seen the Lady, my brothers. She came to me from the waters and told me of the trials to come. This is why I call you here, so that Her summons may be answered. I call Errantry, a crusade to strike at the heart of the new darkness"
I don't know why you'd test them against Greatswords. Why not test them against a similar unit like Chaos Warriors? They have a similar price and role. Greatswords are quite a bit more expensive and have a slightly different role. What about Longbeards with GWs? Heck I'd even argue Wildwood Rangers have more in common with WL than Greatswords do.
Greatswords are a bonus Vs inf specialist and thus it was a test of whether white lions are beating a specialist anti inf, which suggest overperfomance.
We’ve demonstrated longbeards gw don’t meet the same standard.
It’s well known (but we can test if you want) how thoroughly white lions thrash the 50 cheaper longbeards gw. People can argue that’s all on cdvl and ITP, as if loose formation missile resist (net advantage Vs ranged) and plus 7 speed aren’t major factors in their favor.
And as I said yes chaos warriors beat white lions, while being slower and net less resistant to missiles. And, frankly, in the chaos roster.
You can make of those facts what you like. The conclusion is obvious to me.
I don't know why you'd test them against Greatswords. Why not test them against a similar unit like Chaos Warriors? They have a similar price and role. Greatswords are quite a bit more expensive and have a slightly different role. What about Longbeards with GWs? Heck I'd even argue Wildwood Rangers have more in common with WL than Greatswords do.
They demolish longbeards 2h so hard lol. But i mean its helf vs dwf, hardly a conteested fight, been heavily one sided for a very, very long time. Now its almost suicidal with rangers, lions chariots, even frikking feral lions and this massive white lions buff.
For what it's worth, I did do testing 10v10 a few weeks back of white lions chevroned vs chaos warriors GW, and in spaghetti lines the chaos warriors GW still win head to head. Which they better be given their speed and greater vulnerability to ranged.
so WL lose to a unit they should should in theory lose to and somehow you still view them as OP? but then they beat some other unit they should beat which also makes them OP. nice when you can make any result support your conclusion, but thats the joy of testing in a vacuum.
Testing any unit in a vacuum gives only a very very small part of the whole picture. You really need to actually see how they perform in QB and tournaments to get a better view
1. I have of course played Vs the unit in all contexts and seen it (and used it) overperforming 2. I can see that your goal is to ignore data points you don’t like, and I’ve wasted my time testing things you requested.
1. Ive used them too and played against them and not seen them overperforming so I guess thats a draw 2. I can see your goal is to nerf white lions for no reason other than "I don't think this is how these units should be stacking up".
Seriously its quite ridiculous to see people going to such lengths to nerf a midtier unit that is quite easily counterable unless you're a dwarf (maybe this is why you see them as OP) and is pretty much never spammed in any competitive tournaments (except vs dwarfs).
And frankly it matters to me in practice when I play empire Vs high elf and my greatswords are netting me no real value in a matchup that should be clearly in their favor, all while taking more damage Vs ranged and being slow and outmaneuvered. The fact that the high elf side doesn’t even have to invest in an elite inf or serious ranged or other pressure to counter my best specialized infantry is ridiculous in the matchup. High elves get to take their versatile medium tier infantry at absolutely no risk.
1. Ive used them too and played against them and not seen them overperforming so I guess thats a draw 2. I can see your goal is to nerf white lions for no reason other than "I don't think this is how these units should be stacking up".
Seriously its quite ridiculous to see people going to such lengths to nerf a midtier unit that is quite easily counterable unless you're a dwarf (maybe this is why you see them as OP) and is pretty much never spammed in any competitive tournaments (except vs dwarfs).
Its alright, they didnt see silverins overperforming either, #elfed
All bias talks only. Go on and show some real data and back that up
1. Ive used them too and played against them and not seen them overperforming so I guess thats a draw 2. I can see your goal is to nerf white lions for no reason other than "I don't think this is how these units should be stacking up".
Seriously its quite ridiculous to see people going to such lengths to nerf a midtier unit that is quite easily counterable unless you're a dwarf (maybe this is why you see them as OP) and is pretty much never spammed in any competitive tournaments (except vs dwarfs).
Its alright, they didnt see silverins overperforming either, #elfed
All bias talks only. Go on and show some real data and back that up
what’s the problem here though? WL lose to the units they are meant to lose to. Chevrons were never a way to test things, I don’t even know why you’d test something weird like chevroned WL vs GS.
Nah they dont, they shouldve been rofl stomped by chaos war 2h not to mention the absolute complete landslide on longbeards 2h.
What shouldve happen is they should be getting the exact stupid one sided match on longbeards of -$50 as they did on chaos war 2h with the exact -$50 cheaper.
Free ap vs one of the best inf in game saurus, among so many others, ppl even need to bring anti inf specialist dealing with white lions, thats how overtuned they r
White lions are muuuuuch better Vs ranged than greatswords (net 8% missile resist + 5 speed + loose formation) and muuuch better Vs cavalry as well.
As empire youre investing in a much more vulnerable unit that gets extremely little return in spite of its specialization. And that’s the best infantry they have Vs high elves.
Like I said you can buff greatswords if this is the new standard.
White lions are muuuuuch better Vs ranged than greatswords (net 8% missile resist + 5 speed + loose formation) and muuuch better Vs cavalry as well.
As empire youre investing in a much more vulnerable unit that gets extremely little return in spite of its specialization. And that’s the best infantry they have Vs high elves.
Like I said you can buff greatswords if this is the new standard.
well yeah that would be more reasonable if they are somehow underperforming. might help vs dwarfs.
But the example of HE vs empire is weird I think, its not like empire have a hard matchup here, its quite even. They dont really need GS with all the other tools they have.
White lions are muuuuuch better Vs ranged than greatswords (net 8% missile resist + 5 speed + loose formation) and muuuch better Vs cavalry as well.
As empire youre investing in a much more vulnerable unit that gets extremely little return in spite of its specialization. And that’s the best infantry they have Vs high elves.
Like I said you can buff greatswords if this is the new standard.
nothing needs buffs, like Loupi said you come up with 1v1 tests in a vacuum to prove a point. Not even honest tests, actually evident there is a unit you lile to see nerfed and you construct evidence a posteriori to fit the narrative. I bet if by any chance chevroned WL lost to Greatswords, you’d come up with something like rank 9 WL vs Chosen lol.
Honestly your elf hate and bias is getting tiring. People don’t spam WL in tournaments and don’t chevron them.
I showed my data. You’re unwilling to discuss the facts because you know you can’t face them.
I doubt you see a lot of greatswords Vs high elves in tourneys either. When you know your entire infantry line is embarrassingly underpowered Vs your enemy there’s not a lot of point in even attempting to contest.
What I really need to test is whether maining high elves makes people oblivious to facts and afraid to not play on easy mode. It’s amazing to me the excuses you guys come up with to argue against a slight nerf to a unit that was buffed well beyond what any of you were ever even requesting in the past.
If every single unit of every roster had the same perfect cost efficiency for their choices it would be a sorry day for asymmetry indeed. This asymmetry of cost efficiency can be seen throughout the game. If everything had the same perfect return on investment, Wardancers, Sarus warrior shields and White Lions would be the exact same unit. Different Factions will pay different amounts for certain units and/or traits.
Chevroning units to cost will not wildly change the advantages or disadvantages that they pay for at a base cost.
Additionally, and in interests to the point of cost efficiency, the Empire are not an infantry faction. Their greatest strength is in their Ranged and Calvary options. Many of these options the likes of which the HE do not have.
Their is clearly some Asymmetry between these factions. The HE clearly have an advantage in their Infantry and Monsters. The Empire clearly have an advantage in their Ranged and Calvary. Comparing their infantry against a Faction like the HE(Or Chaos or the Dwarves) i would not expect the Empire Infantry to trade up favourably be it for cost efficiency or performance. The Empire have other strengths they can leverage outside of their Infantry.
I also disagree with the presentation of a single chevroned matchup being the grounds for nerfing a unit. Seriously, how is grounds for a total nerf?
Lol look at them all dodging hard when a $800 helf unit can trade equally on a melee faction chaos $850
And they wanna talk about asymmetrical balance rofl!
Same silverin gang really, never learn anything about balance. Dont even dare to show any live tests. Wonder who they r trying to convince, its like they thought dev dont do tests of their own. #silverin’ed
Maybe slightly overtuned i would agree with but who cares. You have more overtuned units than that in every single roster.
If they beat cwgw in proper tests there is something worth discussing imo. Greatswords have never been a gold standard and are pretty lackluster, lbgw are pretty bad.
Don't fear the knockdown. Control it. Embrace it. Love it!
In a 1v1 set of fights greatswords should and do win. Whilst costing more and being a niche unit.They are Greatsword infantry the others are great weapon infantry.
Greatsword infantry means BVI great weapon infantry means good vs all. Inexplicably Greatswords have the LOWEST WS of ANY Greatsword unit.. Including shades.. Which means they are the worst at dealing damage.....
To note vs any other outside factor.. Cavalry, monsters, Missiles, magic Greatswords perform worse than those other 3 units.
They are the LEAST versatile unit in the list. And most expensive. White Lions are in the middle in price and are the MOST versatile unit
Missile resist Loose formation Strider
They also feature in the most versatile Army on par with Empire.
They lose 1v1 vs CWGW and beat LBGW Yet... For 50 gold less than CWGW they barely lose and come with their other traits and for 50 gold less LBGW come with less useful traits for a GW unit and their roster. and get stamped on. Chaos warriors come with nothing.
What GW infantry is weakest to is ranged and shock charges. Being loose formation with missile resist and the highest speed of all GW infantry makes WL the MOST resilient GW infantry.
With their recent MD buff they now gain exponentially from their Martial Prowess.
+4MD is far far more valuable than -4 CB particularly on a unit with high WS and MA anyway. Particularly as GW infantry weaknesses are MD and ranged fire.Any consideration of WL MUST look at the additional traits thrown to them.
Comments
Based on this, white lions appear to outperform longbeards GW on this metric.
Or loupi if you prefer it's trivial to show that "natural" white lions crush longbeards GW (800 vs 750). But i assume if i did show that it wouldn't matter how thoroughly they beat them, unless you have some metric in mind for what the outcome of that fight *should* be.
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6 · Disagree AgreeLike i said in the post, if you want to buff greatswords, longbeards GW, and CW GW to keep pace with high elf units, I am fine with that too. I believe that's called power creep.
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5 · Disagree AgreeThe inf line of helf r just absurd atm, they r even stronger than chaos. White lions r better yet cheaper than chaos warrior 2h.
They even do extremely well on ap anti inf specialists such as squires and greatswords. Completely elfed the beards out of longbeards 2h, tho the later is widely considered as some of the worst 2h in the game.
Vs saurus, tombs, graves, yet another onr of those stupid overtuned helf units that got everything on the package. Ap, armor, anti missile, speed, ld, absurb stats for dirt underpriced costs.
Futures bleak with ducks departure from the balance scene. Those new team gonr mad overtuning the entire faction
Top #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
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0 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeTop #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
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3 · Disagree AgreeTesting any unit in a vacuum gives only a very very small part of the whole picture. You really need to actually see how they perform in QB and tournaments to get a better view
- Report
4 · Disagree Agree2. I can see that your goal is to ignore data points you don’t like, and I’ve wasted my time testing things you requested.
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5 · Disagree Agree- Report
1 · Disagree Agree- Report
5 · Disagree AgreeI have seen the Lady, my brothers. She came to me from the waters and told me of the trials to come. This is why I call you here, so that Her summons may be answered. I call Errantry, a crusade to strike at the heart of the new darkness"
-- The Lionhearted
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3 · Disagree AgreeWe’ve demonstrated longbeards gw don’t meet the same standard.
It’s well known (but we can test if you want) how thoroughly white lions thrash the 50 cheaper longbeards gw. People can argue that’s all on cdvl and ITP, as if loose formation missile resist (net advantage Vs ranged) and plus 7 speed aren’t major factors in their favor.
And as I said yes chaos warriors beat white lions, while being slower and net less resistant to missiles. And, frankly, in the chaos roster.
You can make of those facts what you like. The conclusion is obvious to me.
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5 · Disagree Agree-$50 cheaper
free +5 speed
free strider
free 30% missile resist
Even at $850 its a bargain, or they could -$75 on chaos war 2h seeing u know melee faction kinda actually need to not suck in melee that hard
Top #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
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0 · Disagree Agree2. I can see your goal is to nerf white lions for no reason other than "I don't think this is how these units should be stacking up".
Seriously its quite ridiculous to see people going to such lengths to nerf a midtier unit that is quite easily counterable unless you're a dwarf (maybe this is why you see them as OP) and is pretty much never spammed in any competitive tournaments (except vs dwarfs).
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6 · Disagree Agree- Report
9 · Disagree AgreeAll bias talks only. Go on and show some real data and back that up
white lions chaos war 2h is, enough.said.period.
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1 · Disagree Agree- Report
-2 · Disagree AgreeWhat shouldve happen is they should be getting the exact stupid one sided match on longbeards of -$50 as they did on chaos war 2h with the exact -$50 cheaper.
Free ap vs one of the best inf in game saurus, among so many others, ppl even need to bring anti inf specialist dealing with white lions, thats how overtuned they r
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5 · Disagree AgreeAs empire youre investing in a much more vulnerable unit that gets extremely little return in spite of its specialization. And that’s the best infantry they have Vs high elves.
Like I said you can buff greatswords if this is the new standard.
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5 · Disagree AgreeBut the example of HE vs empire is weird I think, its not like empire have a hard matchup here, its quite even. They dont really need GS with all the other tools they have.
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0 · Disagree AgreeI doubt you see a lot of greatswords Vs high elves in tourneys either. When you know your entire infantry line is embarrassingly underpowered Vs your enemy there’s not a lot of point in even attempting to contest.
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6 · Disagree Agree- Report
8 · Disagree Agree- Report
2 · Disagree AgreeChevroning units to cost will not wildly change the advantages or disadvantages that they pay for at a base cost.
Additionally, and in interests to the point of cost efficiency, the Empire are not an infantry faction. Their greatest strength is in their Ranged and Calvary options. Many of these options the likes of which the HE do not have.
Their is clearly some Asymmetry between these factions. The HE clearly have an advantage in their Infantry and Monsters. The Empire clearly have an advantage in their Ranged and Calvary.
Comparing their infantry against a Faction like the HE(Or Chaos or the Dwarves) i would not expect the Empire Infantry to trade up favourably be it for cost efficiency or performance. The Empire have other strengths they can leverage outside of their Infantry.
I also disagree with the presentation of a single chevroned matchup being the grounds for nerfing a unit. Seriously, how is grounds for a total nerf?
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2 · Disagree AgreeAnd they wanna talk about asymmetrical balance rofl!
Same silverin gang really, never learn anything about balance. Dont even dare to show any live tests. Wonder who they r trying to convince, its like they thought dev dont do tests of their own. #silverin’ed
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0 · Disagree AgreeWhite lions got buffed for no reason during the patch.
White lions are now slightly overtuned. Boom, easy to follow chain of logic.
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8 · Disagree AgreeIf they beat cwgw in proper tests there is something worth discussing imo. Greatswords have never been a gold standard and are pretty lackluster, lbgw are pretty bad.
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2 · Disagree AgreeIn a 1v1 set of fights greatswords should and do win. Whilst costing more and being a niche unit.They are Greatsword infantry the others are great weapon infantry.
Greatsword infantry means BVI great weapon infantry means good vs all. Inexplicably Greatswords have the LOWEST WS of ANY Greatsword unit.. Including shades.. Which means they are the worst at dealing damage.....
To note vs any other outside factor.. Cavalry, monsters, Missiles, magic Greatswords perform worse than those other 3 units.
They are the LEAST versatile unit in the list. And most expensive. White Lions are in the middle in price and are the MOST versatile unit
Missile resist
Loose formation
Strider
They also feature in the most versatile Army on par with Empire.
They lose 1v1 vs CWGW and beat LBGW
Yet... For 50 gold less than CWGW they barely lose and come with their other traits and for 50 gold less LBGW come with less useful traits for a GW unit and their roster. and get stamped on. Chaos warriors come with nothing.
What GW infantry is weakest to is ranged and shock charges. Being loose formation with missile resist and the highest speed of all GW infantry makes WL the MOST resilient GW infantry.
With their recent MD buff they now gain exponentially from their Martial Prowess.
+4MD is far far more valuable than -4 CB particularly on a unit with high WS and MA anyway. Particularly as GW infantry weaknesses are MD and ranged fire.Any consideration of WL MUST look at the additional traits thrown to them.
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4 · Disagree Agree