Heroes of Legend - Legendary Hero Proposals by Loremaster of Sotek. Vampire Counts and Norsca

TheGuardianOfMetal#3661

Title

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkjT8A0tKBM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HMRrZ-6OdE

Completely agreed on Konrad. He lead Sylvania AFTER Vlad's death while being insane, not a schemer that wanted to take power like Manfred and completely inept at Magic. He'd make a perfect sense as Hero, rather than Lord.

Crossil#2134

I think he's utterly wrong on Scyla. I am against throwing in a Spawn of Khorne into a god-neutral faction, especially the one Chaos faction that doesn't have Chaos Spawn in it.

I would prefer Beorg Bearstruck if he wasn't made an LL.

And, yeah, Konrad works. He is the last character from the armybook but he'd work more as an LH. We also have enough Von Carstein LLs in the game.

PoorManatee6197#6481

Crossil said:

I think he's utterly wrong on Scyla. I am against throwing in a Spawn of Khorne into a god-neutral faction, especially the one Chaos faction that doesn't have Chaos Spawn in it.

Norsca already has the brutes of the hound RoR, a khorne unit that you can recruit no matter which god you align to. Being a undivided tribe doesnt mean you cant have some god aligned units or heroes.

SeanJeanquoi#3490

@Crossil

For once we agree.

SeanJeanquoi#3490

PoorManatee6197 said:

Crossil said:

I think he's utterly wrong on Scyla. I am against throwing in a Spawn of Khorne into a god-neutral faction, especially the one Chaos faction that doesn't have Chaos Spawn in it.

Norsca already has the brutes of the hound RoR, a khorne unit that you can recruit no matter which god you align to. Being a undivided tribe doesnt mean you cant have some god aligned units or heroes.

Yes, because they're Neutral...They aren't undivided, they are half chaos half order and they have certain clans or lords who rise to become the champion/worshiper of a specific deity. hence why they have some chaos and even some god aligned units.

If Scyla was to come for Norsca, it should be as an exclusive to the Khorne devotion tree and no other way. Norsca should distance itself from Chaos and specific god worship as much as possible. This sentiment is echoed throughout almost every comment made on his video.

CaesarSahlertz

SeanJeanquoi said:

PoorManatee6197 said:

Crossil said:

I think he's utterly wrong on Scyla. I am against throwing in a Spawn of Khorne into a god-neutral faction, especially the one Chaos faction that doesn't have Chaos Spawn in it.

Norsca already has the brutes of the hound RoR, a khorne unit that you can recruit no matter which god you align to. Being a undivided tribe doesnt mean you cant have some god aligned units or heroes.

Yes, because they're Neutral...They aren't undivided, they are half chaos half order and they have certain clans or lords who rise to become the champion/worshiper of a specific deity. hence why they have some chaos and even some god aligned units.

If Scyla was to come for Norsca, it should be as an exclusive to the Khorne devotion tree and no other way. Norsca should distance itself from Chaos and specific god worship as much as possible. This sentiment is echoed throughout almost every comment made on his video.

Norscans aren't neutral.... Norscans are Chaos Worshippers. However, during peacetime some Norscans are known to trade with the southeren nations.

SeanJeanquoi#3490

@CaesarSahlertz

No you've got it in reverse. At least half of Norsca aren't chaos worshippers and either worship Ulric, Ursun or their own gods. Even those who worship Chaos often do so in ignorance and indirectly.

However, when the Daemons come or when an Everchosen rises, Norsca will often band together with them, whether or not they are order leaning or chaos leaning, to raid the southlanders.

This is a rare occurrence though and this isn't to say they're chaos worshippers. Most Norscans join them because they hate southlanders, or because their culture is a warrior/raider culture and therefore they see this as a challenge, a chance to prove themselves in battle and gain spoils for their people.

The Order half also cooperate and trade with Krakka Drak and the Norse Dwarfs and Skeggi doesn't just cooperate with other order factions, it has inhabitants, traders, etc who are Imperial, Tilean and Estalian.

Norsca is the most neutral and divided of the Northmen and In terms of god Worship, it varies from village to village.

CaesarSahlertz

SeanJeanquoi said:

@CaesarSahlertz

No you've got it in reverse. At least half of Norsca aren't chaos worshippers and either worship Ulric, Ursun or their own gods. Even those who worship Chaos often do so in ignorance and indirectly.

However, when the Daemons come or when an Everchosen rises, Norsca will often band together with them, whether or not they are order leaning or chaos leaning, to raid the southlanders.

This is a rare occurrence though and this isn't to say they're chaos worshippers. Most Norscans join them because they hate southlanders, or because their culture is a warrior/raider culture and therefore they see this as a challenge, a chance to prove themselves in battle and gain spoils for their people.

The Order half also cooperate and trade with Krakka Drak and the Norse Dwarfs and Skeggi doesn't just cooperate with other order factions, it has inhabitants, traders, etc who are Imperial, Tilean and Estalian.

Norsca is the most neutral and divided of the Northmen and In terms of god Worship, it varies from village to village.

No... No... No... You have got to STOP spreading incorect information and straight up FALSEHOODS on this forum..

Norscans ONE AND ALL, worship some iteration or form of the Chaos Gods. They consider all of the southeren gods to be rather weak to be correct.

"Because of the omnipresence of the Dark Gods in the north, the men who carve out their existence there are devout worshippers of Chaos indeed, offering up the deaths of those they slay on the battlefield with each passing day. Mutation is commonplace in the northlands, but — unlike the lands of the Empire in the south, where such disfigurement is abhorred — the people of the far north see it as a mark of divine favour. To the northlanders, their dark gods are a vital and glorious part of their lives. A Northman communes with his deities directly, dedicating body and soul to his gods rather than offering prayers at the behest of sanctimonious priests or narrow-minded patriarchs."

and

"It is the ambition of every Northman to become a mighty warrior, and ultimately to face the judgement of the gods by travelling to the far north itself. Though the vast majority die in the attempt, there will occasionally emerge a warrior strong and driven enough to be chosen by the gods as one of their champions. These exalted warriors have the highest status amongst the lesser mortals of their tribe, who follow the Champion of Chaos to war with fanatic devotion."

Norscans DO NOT worship southeren gods. You have SEVERELY misinterpreted what is being explained in the RPG supplement, and this is now the THIRD time that you refuse to accept being wrong and subsequently corrected.

Get the lore right, or do not try to pipe in on the discussions on the matter.

TheGuardianOfMetal#3661

SeanJeanquoi said:

@CaesarSahlertz

No you've got it in reverse. At least half of Norsca aren't chaos worshippers and either worship Ulric, Ursun or their own gods. Even those who worship Chaos often do so in ignorance and indirectly.

That is wrong. A few Norscan tribes in the South of Norsca are not as fanatically chaos worshipping as anything further up north, but the majority of them are still chaos worshippers iwth Ulric etc. being a minority. And I think the sources that gave us the non chaos norscans tend to be rather old... AND the stuff that comes directly from the main GW stuff,especially the Armybooks, supercedes RPG supplements, novels and Forgeworld.

SeanJeanquoi#3490

@TheGuardianOfMetal

Nope, Sources such as Tome of Corruption tell us literally "Half" of norsca don't worship chaos. These sources are not only new-ish in WH terms, they're also very credible (All of Bretonnias modern lore comes from the RPG).

Army Books don't superceed anything, the entire business model of GW was to compartmentalize the lore and sell it to you in various different books and magazines. The only dodgy sources are fan made stuff and novels.

CaesarSahlertz

SeanJeanquoi said:

@TheGuardianOfMetal

Nope, Sources such as Tome of Corruption tell us literally "Half" of norsca don't worship chaos. These sources are not only new-ish in WH terms, they're also very credible (All of Bretonnias modern lore comes from the RPG).

Army Books don't superceed anything, the entire business model of GW was to compartmentalize the lore and sell it to you in various different books and magazines. The only dodgy sources are fan made stuff and novels.

No... It... Doesn't..

CaesarSahlertz

TheGuardianOfMetal said:

SeanJeanquoi said:

@CaesarSahlertz

No you've got it in reverse. At least half of Norsca aren't chaos worshippers and either worship Ulric, Ursun or their own gods. Even those who worship Chaos often do so in ignorance and indirectly.

That is wrong. A few Norscan tribes in the South of Norsca are not as fanatically chaos worshipping as anything further up north, but the majority of them are still chaos worshippers iwth Ulric etc. being a minority. And I think the sources that gave us the non chaos norscans tend to be rather old... AND the stuff that comes directly from the main GW stuff,especially the Armybooks, supercedes RPG supplements, novels and Forgeworld.

It is entirely wrong.. He is basing it on a very wrongful interpretation of the content of a book from 2006.

SeanJeanquoi#3490

@TheGuardianOfMetal

Also, The Army Books literally couldn't fit all the lore in them. 8th edition was pretty bad for squishing stories from past editions down, even going so far as to diluting and changing the meaning of said stories. They also get things wrong here and there or overly generalise.

@CaesarSahlertz

2006 was the beginning of 7th edition and I haven't gotten it wrong, Norsca is roughly half order, half chaos. Its also not just tome of corruption, I believe they mention the Norscan worship of Ulric in Tome of Salvation and other books too.

CaesarSahlertz

SeanJeanquoi said:

@TheGuardianOfMetal

Also, The Army Books literally couldn't fit all the lore in them. 8th edition was pretty bad for squishing stories from past editions down, even going so far as to diluting and changing the meaning of said stories. They also get things wrong here and there or overly generalise.

@CaesarSahlertz

2006 was the beginning of 7th edition and I haven't gotten it wrong, Norsca is roughly half order, half chaos. Its also not just tome of corruption, I believe they mention the Norscan worship of Ulric in Tome of Salvation and other books too.

Okay.. Since you INSIST on being wrong. Then let me SHOW you EXACTLY what Tome of Corruption says about the Norscan faith:

"It would be easy to say that the Norsemen worship the Dark Gods, even easier to say that they are a soulless horde with no regard for life or the suffering they cause. It is true Norsemen see mutations as blessings from their Gods, and they festoon their bodies with tattoos and symbols of the Dark Gods to attract their attention, but to say the Norsemen are unthinking slaves to the Ruinous Powers is simply false."

Woops. First paragraph and you are already proven wrong. But wait! There is more!

"The Norsemen see themselves as honest men, strong, mighty, and courageous. And for these virtues, they thank the Gods. They worship the Gods they do because they see their power in all things, and are vividly reminded of their potency. Southern Gods, like Sigmar, are weak in comparison to the primal forces of life and death represented by their deities. To the Norsemen, the blessings of their Gods (e.g. mutations) are the clearest sign of their power, proving to them that the Gods of the Empire are weak and impotent."

Damn! Once more, you are proven wrong. Hard. What is this? There is more?!

"Norse religion is dynamic and complex, featuring a broad pantheon of Ancestors, Heroes, Daemons, and Gods. The Gods themselves vary from tribe to tribe, but each group of Norsemen embrace a pantheon
that reflects four central themes: War, Desire, Decay, and Hope. Norse pantheons rarely feature just a single God per theme, rather they may have several. Instead of a single God of Battle, they might have three: one for wrath, another for death, and a last for excellence in arms."

Oh dear.. This is relentless! Can it be? There is yet more??

"Though they have broad pantheons, Imperial theologians believe these Gods are but aspects of four Dark Gods. They go on to suggest the various heroes are those mortals who likely gained a Mark of Chaos or were transformed into Daemons. Clearly, there are many parallels between the beliefs of the Norse and those upheld by the Kurgan and others in the Chaos Wastes. But some Norsemen also venerate some Imperial Gods like Ulric and Taal, giving the theologians of the Empire no shortage of religious frustrations."

Oh my... This must have been the SINGLE source of your abject confusionas to the faith of the Norscans?.. To bad that there is yet MORE to show you how and why you are wrong..

Naming all the Norse Gods is impossible, as each community adds their own idols and heroes to the core set of deities worshipped by most Norsemen. Even the most popular divine figures are not universally upheld, since the northern tribes worship the Gods that are closer approximations to the Dark Gods than do the southern tribes. Still, there are some similarities. All pantheons feature a King of the Gods, who reflects the mortal King of the tribe. He is usually a war leader, powerful in battle but also wise. He typically has a wife who upholds womanly concerns such as home and hearth, marriage and motherhood. In addition, there are a number of Gods to represent the elemental forces of
fire, water, wind, and earth—these tend to correspond to the four Chaos Gods, one of which is often the trickster God (almost always a parallel to Tzeentch). The rest of the Gods reflect the particular concerns of a community. Add to this hundreds of Hero-Gods and Daemons, and you come close to assembling a typical tribe’s pantheon.
"

Someone stop this brutality!

"Curiously, many Norsemen believe in Gods with strong parallels to those worshipped in the Empire, although no Norseman believes in Morr, since the afterlife is closed to all but the most courageous warriors. The Norse versions are always more savage and vicious than their southern counterparts. For example, the Skaeling tribe claims a Daemon God named Mermedus, often believed to be a dark reflection of Manaan, dwells beneath the Sea of Claws. They depict him as a bulbous and ghoulish figure, bloated in death, and covered in bulging eyes. It’s said he walks on the sea floor, causing stormy waters to capsize ships and drown sailors. To appease this vile God, the Skaeling make Human and animal sacrifices, casting the weighted bodies down to distract the God from their voyage."

This is WORD FOR WORD what is in Tome of Corruption, and not even ONCE does it claim taht half of the Norscans worship the southeren gods. In fact, it goes to great lengths to explain, that ALL Norscans worship Chaos (in one way or another) and also sometimes borrow southeren gods, but obviously adapt them to fit into their religion.

So STOP spreading falsehoods and lies about a lore you obviously have ZERO clue about.

SeanJeanquoi#3490

The Northman and the Old World

Since the earliest migrations, the Norsemen have retained a strange relationship with the rest of the Old World. They straddle the line that divides the bloodthirsty hordes of Chaos that lie in the Shadowlands from the huddled masses who fight to defend their homes and way of life from the Incursions of Chaos. In short: To the Empire, the Norsemen are antagonists, sometime allies, and explorers.

Norsemen as Allies

Though these people strike fear into the hearts of men, not all Norsemen are bent on rapine and slaughter. Many deal with their neighbours honestly and fairly. Part of this “civilised” approach stems from Marienburg’s efforts to establish mercantile inroads to expand their own trading influence. Marienburgers hope to cultivate a buffer state against the Kurgan and the more savage tribes of the Norsemen.

As a result of this new era of prosperity, Norsemen have slowly returned to the ports of the Old World, signing on as mercenaries or even as merchants, selling whale oil, ivory, and lumber. In some parts of the world, the Norse warrior has become something of a novelty. The brave savage warrior is made all the more attractive by the stories and romances that circulate among the ladies of the courts.

It’s now fashionable in Marienburg to have a Norseman employed as a personal guard among the families of the upper class—and who can say, really, what goes on behind closed doors.

Northern Tribes

Standing in the shadow of the Chaos Wastes, Norsca is a land touched by Chaos. Whenever the roiling Eye widens, the tongues of darkness lick the dizzying peaks of this frozen land, altering all and everything it touches. As a result, those tribes living on the coast of the Frozen Sea are more deeply affected by Chaos and, as a result, develop more mutations and more variety among their kind than the rest of the Norsemen. In addition, they are quite a bit more savage since they regularly come into conflict with the Kurgan tribes of the Wastes.

The Northern Tribes are often at the forefront of the Chaos Incursions, leading the way into the fat lands of the Empire for the Kurgan tribes. They are a brutal and bloodthirsty lot. Merciless, they kill for the love of killing. Northern Tribes include the Graelings, Vargs, and the dreaded Aeslings.

their loyal warriors, who occupy a vaunted place among their fellows. The rest of Norse society consists of the elderly, the infirm, and women. At the very bottom are the thralls, slaves taken from raids for use as sacrifices, menial labour, or worse, as consorts.

Southern Tribes

The southern tribes are somewhat milder than their savage brethren to the north. Whilst these barbarians raid and plunder like all the rest, it is from these tribes that new efforts for peaceful communications originate. They raid when necessary for survival, but are more interested in acts of heroism and adventure over the carnal slaughter embraced by their kin. This said, during the Chaos Incursions, these Norsemen banded together to wage war against the Empire as it was demanded by their Gods. Refusing the call of battle is grounds for annihilation.

Among the southern tribes are counted the Bjornlings, Skaelings, Baersonlings, and Sarls. Though seen as more civilised than their northern neighbours, they still fight with rival tribes. In fact, the Bjornlings are fierce rivals with the Graelings, and the Sarls regularly fight the Aeslings and Baersonlings.

Tome of Corruption - pg 139-142

As we can see from these excerpts, Norsca is a more complex place and thanks to Marienburg extending an olive branch and showing the Northmen that they can be more than just enemies, many Tribes in the south (even Chaos tribes) are are far more welcoming and willing to work with the other realms of men. It is as I said before: even where chaos tribes are concerned, many aren't the crazy chaos undivided characatures that you're trying to paint them out to be. Its not just "during peace time" its most of the time when there isn't a Chaos Champion or Everchosen around.

The Book then goes onto talk about their religion and says:

"It would be easy to say that the Norsemen worship the Dark Gods, even easier to say that they are a soulless horde with no regard for life or the suffering they cause. It is true Norsemen see mutations as blessings from their Gods, and they festoon their bodies with tattoos and symbols of the Dark Gods to attract their attention, but to say the Norsemen are unthinking slaves to the Ruinous Powers is simply false."

This shows a parallel with the real Vikings who were a raider culture that looked down on 'the weak' and while on the outside to other cultures they seemed like mindless barbarians, they had their own justified reasons for doing so and in reality were just as cultured (if not more so) than the Christian and Muslim states they raided at the time (but obviously, the problem with Warhammer's representation is that it actually ties them to Chaos and evil, which is not true of reality, but here we can see GW attempting to reflect their real historical counterparts).

"Norse religion is dynamic and complex, featuring a broad pantheon of Ancestors, Heroes, Daemons, and Gods. The Gods themselves vary from tribe to tribe, but each group of Norsemen embrace a pantheon that reflects four central themes: War, Desire, Decay, and Hope. Norse pantheons rarely feature just a single God per theme, rather they may have several. Instead of a single God of Battle, they might have three: one for wrath, another for death, and a last for excellence in arms.

Naming all the Norse Gods is impossible, as each community adds their own idols and heroes to the core set of deities worshipped by most Norsemen. Even the most popular divine figures are not universally upheld, since the northern tribes worship the Gods that are closer approximations to the Dark Gods than do the southern tribes."

Like I was saying, even those who worship "Chaos" often do so in ignorance and indirectly. Most of the Norscan Tribes worship their own pantheon, some of which indirectly fuel Chaos whether they want to or not, kind of like how the Ogre Kingdoms are a neutral faction, yet through their actions they still fuel the fire of chaos, or how the Empire is meant to be the bastion against chaos and yet all their political machinations, power grabbing, greed etc are what tear themselves down from within, they're fighting against human nature, which is also why Archaon is an Imperial, he represents this internal conflict.

SeanJeanquoi#3490

@TheGuardianOfMetal @CaesarSahlertz

I meant to @ you in that last post.

CaesarSahlertz

Literally NOTHING in what you psoted there, says taht half of the Norscans worship southeren gods........ We ALL know that Soutehren Norscans are known to openly trade with Southerners during peacetime, that has been part of the canon since the inception of it. But Norscans are NOT neutral, and they DO worship Chaos, as I have now pointed out in great, excruciating and irrefutable detail....

SeanJeanquoi#3490

CaesarSahlertz said:

Literally NOTHING in what you psoted there, says taht half of the Norscans worship southeren gods........ We ALL know that Soutehren Norscans are known to openly trade with Southerners during peacetime, that has been part of the canon since the inception of it. But Norscans are NOT neutral, and they DO worship Chaos, as I have now pointed out in great, excruciating and irrefutable detail....

They don't worship "southern Gods" (myrmidia, Sigmar, etc) they see them as weak and soft, the ones they are known to worship alongside their own pantheon are Ulric and Ursun.

Ulric was the Imperial god back when they were a tribe just like Norsca, back when the Norscans lived in what is the Empire today and Ursun is the Bear god of the Ungol and Gospodar people (AKA Kislev. Ungols are Northmen and Gospodar's used to be Kurgan).

Again, just like the real Vikings, Norscans accept gods from outside their pantheon as legitimate and even worship them. I'll keep having a read through their sources, I haven't double checked the Tome of Salvation yet.

My point wasn't just about the God worship though, there's alot of nuance to Norsca that you're glossing over or just don't seem to know about. You were implying (as Sotek himself implied) that Norsca are just kind of another adjacent chaos undivided faction, but that's neither what they are, nor what they should be.

Artjuh90#8868

Honestly if you think Norsca is neutral cause some of the southern parts trade in peace time you could also state Vampire Counts are neutral aswell...

SeanJeanquoi#3490

@CaesarSahlertz

There's also this paragraph which comes just after the stuff I quoted prior:

Curiously, many Norsemen believe in Gods with strong parallels to those worshipped in the Empire, although no Norseman believes in Morr, since the afterlife is closed to all but the most courageous warriors. The Norse versions are always more savage and vicious than their southern counterparts. For example, the Skaeling tribe claims a Daemon God named Mermedus, often believed to be a dark reflection of Manaan, dwells beneath the Sea of Claws. They depict him as a bulbous and ghoulish figure, bloated in death, and covered in bulging eyes. It’s said he walks on the sea floor, causing stormy waters to capsize ships and drown sailors. To appease this vile God, the Skaeling make Human and animal sacrifices, casting the weighted bodies down to distract the God from their voyage.

And remember, that's Manaan they're talking about specifically, not Stormfels, his 'evil' counterpart who I believe the Norscans worship or respect at least. So they specifically have a Manaan equivalent as a parallel to Stormfels.

So they also do worship southern god equivalents, adapted more to their sensibilities and the harsh nature of their homeland.

CaesarSahlertz

SeanJeanquoi said:

CaesarSahlertz said:

Literally NOTHING in what you psoted there, says taht half of the Norscans worship southeren gods........ We ALL know that Soutehren Norscans are known to openly trade with Southerners during peacetime, that has been part of the canon since the inception of it. But Norscans are NOT neutral, and they DO worship Chaos, as I have now pointed out in great, excruciating and irrefutable detail....

They don't worship "southern Gods" (myrmidia, Sigmar, etc) they see them as weak and soft, the ones they are known to worship alongside their own pantheon are Ulric and Ursun.

Ulric was the Imperial god back when they were a tribe just like Norsca, back when the Norscans lived in what is the Empire today and Ursun is the Bear god of the Ungol and Gospodar people (AKA Kislev. Ungols are Northmen and Gospodar's used to be Kurgan).

Again, just like the real Vikings, Norscans accept gods from outside their pantheon as legitimate and even worship them. I'll keep having a read through their sources, I haven't double checked the Tome of Salvation yet.

My point wasn't just about the God worship though, there's alot of nuance to Norsca that you're glossing over or just don't seem to know about. You were implying (as Sotek himself implied) that Norsca are just kind of another adjacent chaos undivided faction, but that's neither what they are, nor what they should be.

You are beyond infuriating... Not only do you refuse to accept when you are wrong. You continue to refuse it, even after having been shown overwhelming evidence and proof disproving your claims. Not only that, you claim to have a better knowledge of the lore and canon of a game, that some of us have been actively following for the past 35 years. You think that you can find some "hidden truth" in the lore? ALL that we are discussing here, has been discussed a thousand times before.

Norscans. are. NOT. Neutral. They are a CHAOS faction.

They Worship the CHAOS Gods, but, since they are a highly superstitious folk, they are willing to adopt other gods and spirits, since as they see it, it will only improve their chances of survival. But, when it comes down to it, they will abbandon all those adopted gods, when their true gods, the CHAOS Gods, call for them.

Also, the Gospodar used to be SCHYTIANS, which many ages ago split into the Kurgan, the Hung and the Gospodar.

SeanJeanquoi#3490

@CaesarSahlertz

Something else I should point out btw: Imperial Scholars are idiots, so much so that there are 4th wall jokes in some of the lore where the writers poke fun at them, things like 'next thing you know they'll be saying apes have some relation to humans' when talking about obvious truths, so anytime you see "Theologianists" or "Imperial Scholars" stating or debating something take it with a grain of salt.

Found the reference in the Tome of Salvation to the Norscan Ulric Worshippers. This is in regards to the different Orders of Ulric Worshippers:

One lesser order that has managed to secure acceptance by the cult is the Order of the Winter Throne. Founded by a White Wolf named Brother-Templar Ragnar Franzsson almost 600 years ago, the isolated order was controversially taken into the Cult of Ulric in 1975 IC by Ar-Ulric Franzsson, Ragnar Franzsson’s grandson. Since then, the Ragnarites, as they are commonly known, have spread across the north of the Old World.

Order of the Winter Throne

The Order of the Winter Throne has secluded monasteries of ascetics scattered throughout the colder regions of Nordland, Ostland, Kislev and southern Norsca. Ragnarites, named after their founder Ragnar Franzsson, call Ulric the ‘Snow King’ and teach that winter is a training ground for “Evernacht,” an eternal winter that will choke the life from Ulric’s greatest enemies, the Ruinous Powers. Some extremists of the order believe it is their duty to prepare the world for this imminent cleansing.

To do this, they sacrifice food across the north in the name of Ulric, burning silos and stores in night-time raids. This may force people to survive through winter with negligible supplies, which is perfect preparation for Evernacht. But few are appreciative, especially those whose friends and family go to Morr in the freezing nights.

The Ragnarite leader is titled Ulricsson, and he controls the cult from Ulric’s Throat, a cave system in Norsca discovered by the order’s founder. It is rumoured that the caves hide the mysterious Throne of the Snow King, although its nature is unclear. Ulricsson rarely issues decrees, traditionally preferring individual monasteries to fend for themselves, much as they will do when Evernacht arrives. Ulricsson Haargald, the order’s current leader, is a greying giant of a Norseman who, it is said, has not spoken for over thirty years, and consumes only melted snow.

Tome of Salvation - pg 70

So, the only lesser order of the Cult of Ulric, which is worshipped throughout the Empire, not only has multiple bases in Southern Norsca, but the leader of the Order is himself Norscan (and he's one of the better options for a potential LL for Norsca btw).

SeanJeanquoi#3490

@CaesarSahlertz

Then there's this from pg 122, in regards to Foreign gods within the Empire:

"Other foreign Gods have few worshippers, and are regarded as aspects or servants of the Empire Gods, or of the Ruinous Powers. These opinions are shaped by the relationships between nations. Thus, the violent Gods of the Norse raiders are often seen as aspects of the Dark Gods, particularly the Lord of Battles. Norse berserkers in the Empire typically give public allegiance, at least, to Ulric, and many claim to worship that God under the name Ursash."

CaesarSahlertz

SeanJeanquoi said:

@CaesarSahlertz

Something else I should point out btw: Imperial Scholars are idiots, so much so that there are 4th wall jokes in some of the lore where the writers poke fun at them, things like 'next thing you know they'll be saying apes have some relation to humans' when talking about obvious truths, so anytime you see "Theologianists" or "Imperial Scholars" stating or debating something take it with a grain of salt.

Found the reference in the Tome of Salvation to the Norscan Ulric Worshippers. This is in regards to the different Orders of Ulric Worshippers:

One lesser order that has managed to secure acceptance by the cult is the Order of the Winter Throne. Founded by a White Wolf named Brother-Templar Ragnar Franzsson almost 600 years ago, the isolated order was controversially taken into the Cult of Ulric in 1975 IC by Ar-Ulric Franzsson, Ragnar Franzsson’s grandson. Since then, the Ragnarites, as they are commonly known, have spread across the north of the Old World.

Order of the Winter Throne

The Order of the Winter Throne has secluded monasteries of ascetics scattered throughout the colder regions of Nordland, Ostland, Kislev and southern Norsca. Ragnarites, named after their founder Ragnar Franzsson, call Ulric the ‘Snow King’ and teach that winter is a training ground for “Evernacht,” an eternal winter that will choke the life from Ulric’s greatest enemies, the Ruinous Powers. Some extremists of the order believe it is their duty to prepare the world for this imminent cleansing.

To do this, they sacrifice food across the north in the name of Ulric, burning silos and stores in night-time raids. This may force people to survive through winter with negligible supplies, which is perfect preparation for Evernacht. But few are appreciative, especially those whose friends and family go to Morr in the freezing nights.

The Ragnarite leader is titled Ulricsson, and he controls the cult from Ulric’s Throat, a cave system in Norsca discovered by the order’s founder. It is rumoured that the caves hide the mysterious Throne of the Snow King, although its nature is unclear. Ulricsson rarely issues decrees, traditionally preferring individual monasteries to fend for themselves, much as they will do when Evernacht arrives. Ulricsson Haargald, the order’s current leader, is a greying giant of a Norseman who, it is said, has not spoken for over thirty years, and consumes only melted snow.

Tome of Salvation - pg 70

So, the only lesser order of the Cult of Ulric, which is worshipped throughout the Empire, not only has multiple bases in Southern Norsca, but the leader of the Order is himself Norscan (and he's one of the better options for a potential LL for Norsca btw).

That Order is an Order that originates in the EMPIRE, not Norsca... It says taht monks from the EMPIRE has established enclaves in Norsca, where they pry their worship.... How are you this bad at interpreting texts??

SeanJeanquoi said:

@CaesarSahlertz

Then there's this from pg 122, in regards to Foreign gods within the Empire:

"Other foreign Gods have few worshippers, and are regarded as aspects or servants of the Empire Gods, or of the Ruinous Powers. These opinions are shaped by the relationships between nations. Thus, the violent Gods of the Norse raiders are often seen as aspects of the Dark Gods, particularly the Lord of Battles. Norse berserkers in the Empire typically give public allegiance, at least, to Ulric, and many claim to worship that God under the name Ursash."

You understand that this excerpt itself, clearly hints that Norscans only pay lipservice to the Empire gods, because if they openly worshipped the Chaos Gods while in the EMpire, they would literally be burned on the pyre for ehresy? Right?...

SeanJeanquoi#3490

Artjuh90 said:

Honestly if you think Norsca is neutral cause some of the southern parts trade in peace time you could also state Vampire Counts are neutral aswell...

You mean the Vampire Counts who mostly hate Chaos and the faction that includes Abhorash and Vlad, who sided with order factions during the End Times?

Seriously though, Neutral was a poor term of phrase, they are divided and have nature of duality. They're similar to a Neutral faction like the Ogre Kingdoms and they aren't too far off factions like Tilea and Estalia, but when Chaos comes knocking they do answer the call, because if they don't they'll get wiped out, that's the difference between them and the likes of Kislev.

While Kislev is strong, unified and advanced enough to have defences put in place and scouts who can get the word out to be able to prepare for a chaos invasion, Norsca is divided and isolated and whenever Chaos comes, they likely wont know about it until the horde is at their doorstep and then its join or die.

If they weren't forced to answer the call of chaos whenever they come knocking they'd be functionally identical to the southern realms and border princes, just less technologically advanced.

Artjuh90#8868

SeanJeanquoi said:

Artjuh90 said:

Honestly if you think Norsca is neutral cause some of the southern parts trade in peace time you could also state Vampire Counts are neutral aswell...

You mean the Vampire Counts who mostly hate Chaos and the faction that includes Abhorash and Vlad, who sided with order factions during the End Times?

Seriously though, Neutral was a poor term of phrase, they are divided and have nature of duality. They're similar to a Neutral faction like the Ogre Kingdoms and they aren't too far off factions like Tilea and Estalia, but when Chaos comes knocking they do answer the call, because if they don't they'll get wiped out, that's the difference between them and the likes of Kislev.

While Kislev is strong, unified and advanced enough to have defences put in place and scouts who can get the word out to be able to prepare for a chaos invasion, Norsca is divided and isolated and whenever Chaos comes, they likely wont know about it until the horde is at their doorstep and then its join or die.

If they weren't forced to answer the call of chaos whenever they come knocking they'd be functionally identical to the southern realms and border princes, just less technologically advanced.

Vampire Counts may not be Chaos and might fight against them but that does not make them neutral. vampire Counts are clearly a Evil faction. TK and Ogres thse are neutral, vampires are not.
but your tenacity to push that Norsca is neutral is kinda stupid and proved several times it is just not true.
if they would be neutral they would actually defy the Chaos gods at least 1x but they don't, they head the call of the chaos gods as soon as they hear it

Crossil#2134

So I see SeanJeaqui is still intent on rewriting lore, as always.

PoorManatee6197 said:

Crossil said:

I think he's utterly wrong on Scyla. I am against throwing in a Spawn of Khorne into a god-neutral faction, especially the one Chaos faction that doesn't have Chaos Spawn in it.

Norsca already has the brutes of the hound RoR, a khorne unit that you can recruit no matter which god you align to. Being a undivided tribe doesnt mean you cant have some god aligned units or heroes.

Technically no. Overall, these are supposed to be a unit that does dedicate itself to a god but that's still standard Marauders who chose one god to worship but that's not entirely absolute as it is still the Norscan term for khorne rather than the proper Khornate naming. It is especially less relevant with Khornate forces which only care that blood is spilled so which god you choose is not that important to them. It's also a RoR so some lenience is to be assumed but they're still visually base Norscans.

I mean, Scyla is a chaos spawn, which is already far removed from the Norscan roster, but he's also heavily influenced by Khorne, as in, Khorne intentionally influenced him to not be reduced to a slobbering Chaos Spawn. That is, imo, too far off from Norsca's design in-game.

CaesarSahlertz

SeanJeanquoi said:

Artjuh90 said:

Honestly if you think Norsca is neutral cause some of the southern parts trade in peace time you could also state Vampire Counts are neutral aswell...

You mean the Vampire Counts who mostly hate Chaos and the faction that includes Abhorash and Vlad, who sided with order factions during the End Times?

Seriously though, Neutral was a poor term of phrase, they are divided and have nature of duality. They're similar to a Neutral faction like the Ogre Kingdoms and they aren't too far off factions like Tilea and Estalia, but when Chaos comes knocking they do answer the call, because if they don't they'll get wiped out, that's the difference between them and the likes of Kislev.

While Kislev is strong, unified and advanced enough to have defences put in place and scouts who can get the word out to be able to prepare for a chaos invasion, Norsca is divided and isolated and whenever Chaos comes, they likely wont know about it until the horde is at their doorstep and then its join or die.

If they weren't forced to answer the call of chaos whenever they come knocking they'd be functionally identical to the southern realms and border princes, just less technologically advanced.

No.. No.. NO.... Oh but for flying ****'s sake!

Norscans are NOT forced to join Chaos. They do so by their own free will. Because to the Norscans, such an incursion of Chaos is their call to glory, and their ONLY chance of reaching the immortality that they praise.

NORSCANS ARE NOT NEUTRAL. Get that into your head.

SeanJeanquoi#3490

@CaesarSahlertz

Kurgan are sythians too, share the same land, linage and all that, this is an extremely moot thing to focus in on.

I've seen no evidence to your claim that they pretend to adopt other gods and if that's a parallel to real Vikings then you're wrong, yes they did accept baptisms here and there to pretend to convert and force a peace, however many Viking communities did accept the Christian god as real and even worshipped it alongside their own pantheon (most pagan religions like Norse and Roman Paganism believed in the existence and validity of other cultures gods).

I do not believe I've found a hidden anything, its right there in the books I'm quoting. I just happen to have a comprehensive understanding of both the lore and the history/culture its based off of and I'm attempting to inject nuance into the conversation.

You're right, Norscans aren't "Neutral" per-say, that's a poor term of phrase, but as the lore literally states itself: "to say the Norsemen are unthinking slaves to the Ruinous Powers is simply false."

They're a greatly divided people who worship and believe in all kinds of gods, tales, etc. The Southern half of the continent is the most civil and friendly of anywhere and anyone in the frigid north. many believe in more Order leaning (yet still savage in nature) gods and they often have their own equivalent of southern gods. In better circumstances they would be just another flawed order/neutral faction but they're a victim of circumstance, forced into raiding to survive and forced to work with Chaos because they have a gun to their head (though they have embraced much of it, which doesn't remove the somewhat tragic nature of their people).

SeanJeanquoi#3490

@Crossil

and as always you're on the wrong side of history. I'm rewriting nothing, I'm literally quoting the lore verbatim.

@CaesarSahlertz

Yes they do see it as a chance for glory because they're a warrior culture.

You need to understand that we're both correct and that's my point, that's the duality. They're tragic because of their circumstances, yet they're also fierce warriors and rather than lay down and die, they embrace their predicament. They'll work with order and Chaos factions, they're neither monsters nor saints and even in their vile deeds and bloody slaughter there is admirable strength, determination, etc. Much like the real Vikings.

They're technically a Chaos faction, but they aren't equivalent nor adjacent to Chaos undivided, they're very much their own thing.

Crossil#2134

SeanJeanquoi said:

@Crossil

and as always you're on the wrong side of history. I'm rewriting nothing, I'm literally quoting the lore verbatim.

Yes, you're qouting it and rewriting it so that it fits your narrative. The only history I'm on the wrong side of is the one that you're attempting to write for yourself. I am perfectly happy to be the evil in your book as there's nothing that you offer to the discussion but misleading nonsense that you use to manipulate people to your desired outcomes.

In fact, your double speech is pretty obvious, you're saying you're quoting it verbatim but then you twist it in any way that would fit your opinion on how they should be to the point you contradict what's literally written here.

You literally showed that Norsca is by and large Chaos worshipping and that there are few examples of them having neutral dispossition when they have nothing better to do. No sane human willingly answers the call of the Dark Gods, not even the Border Princes just take the call if Chaos comes calling. There's nothing to show the southern tribes are unwilling, just that they're pragmatic in times of peace. That is not proof that they don't worship Chaos and in fact, even the things you quoted literally note LITERALLY that they worship the Chaos gods in the same way as the northern ones.

And the best part is that you lost this debate to begin with. The lore is accurately represented in the game. This is your loss from the start and it's laughable that you're fighting this point.