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Yes they do see it as a chance for glory because they're a warrior culture.
You need to understand that we're both correct and that's my point, that's the duality. They're tragic because of their circumstances, yet they're also fierce warriors and rather than lay down and die, they embrace their predicament. They'll work with order and Chaos factions, they're neither monsters nor saints and even in their vile deeds and bloody slaughter there is admirable strength, determination, etc. Much like the real Vikings.
They're technically a Chaos faction, but they aren't equivalent nor adjacent to Chaos undivided, they're very much their own thing.
No.. We are not both correct. You are entirely, 100%, demonstrably, without a single doubt, ridiculously, without a second thought and beyond all reason WRONG...
You aren't evil, you're just stubborn I don't hate you, nor do I want to hate you, in fact I'd really love for us to get on, but we don't so hey ho...
Religion is more bloody complicated than that though now isn't it. Even the "Chaos factions" don't all literally or intentionally worship chaos, they have their own pantheon with their own gods and interpretations. Unlike the Kurgan, Hung and Tong, Norscan Chaos Worshippers (broadly speaking) don't literally invoke Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeentch or Slaanesh, they all have their own different interpretations of gods that may or may not directly or indirectly link to chaos.
Its like if someone in the Empire cheats on their wife or has an orgy or slaughters innocent people, are they worshippers of chaos? maybe, maybe not, but they are enacting the will of chaos and strengthening them whether they mean to or not.
"Chaos Worshippers" like Beorg Bearstruck can still happily work alongside and for humans and order factions, clans like the Bjornlings and so on still happily work with and trade with order factions. Skeggi is noted for having some chaos worshippers and yet they have a hundreds-year-long history of housing and working with people from order factions, etc, etc.
Even if they are technically a "Chaos tribe" of Norsca, this doesn't make them pure evil and in direct service to or communication with the dark gods themselves.
"No sane human willingly answers the call of the Dark Gods"
Unless they had a gun to their head and/or they're a warrior culture who believe that Glory in battle is the only way to get into the afterlife.
I'm sorry but I seriously need to stop here and continue this for a second because you're literally arguing that 'no sane person' would want to die in battle for whatever reason, when this is 1 to 1 a copy-paste representation of what the Vikings actually believed in real live. You are essentially arguing from your modern, culturally christian mindset that 'no sane person would have a different belief system from me' when this literally happened in real life, more than once.
"There's nothing to show the southern tribes are unwilling, just that they're pragmatic in times of piece. That is not proof that they don't worship Chaos."
I never said they don't worship Chaos and I'm not saying none of them are unwilling, I'm, again attempting to inject nuance into the situation and the reasoning behind it. I'm saying not all of them Worship Chaos, some worship order gods and many worship them totally indirectly and unintentionally.
From the get go I stated how Norsca was split in two (which it is) that some of them worship order gods or worship loads of gods that aren't directly Khorne and the others (which they do) and that they work often with order factions (which they do) they are even described in the books as ambivalent and the books demythologise misconceptions around the faction by stating how most people see them as opposed to how they are, and how they are divided and ambivalent most of the time, even though technically they are a Chaos faction, they're very nuanced.
I'm fine with the representation in-game, they have no Chaos Spawn, Chaos Warriors, Chosen or any of that crap and they shouldn't have that. Furthermore, in-game as Wulfric you have the option to Join Chaos or defy the call and attempt to fight them off head on, which is also extremely loreful.
I'm simply of the opinion that if CA was to update the faction and add new stuff to them, they should play more into this duality and expand upon their unique theme, distancing them more from the Warriors of Chaos rather than just piling on a bunch of WoC units and Characters (this is something I'm sure we agree with and its why the community wants Norsca to get more undivided characters rather than Gutrot Spume and stuff like that).
@SeanJeanquoi Why do you persist in trying to apply our real world Viking culture to the Norscans?? Yes the Norscans are INSPIRED by Vikings, but you aren't meant to make a 1:1 connection...
You are reading about the Norscans, trying to see where that fits the Vikings, then taking THAT context and trying to superfit it down over the Norscans.. You ar eperverting both the Norscans AND our real life Vikings to fit into something that is representative of neither....
Just **** stop man.....
The Norscans are CHAOS Worshipeprs by their own choice. They worship these gods, ebcause they have a palpable power in Norsca and because they offer a way of life, that will lead them to an afterlife they value.
Norsca is, by no threat of violence, no compulsion, no coercion or manipulation a CHAOS faction. They choose that life, because it lends itself well to their culture and their lifestyle.
Games Workshop were not trying to hint that Norscans were redeemable or somehow forced to serve Chaos. They said, that since Norscans (in the context of the Old World) are the Southernmost Chaos faction, then it also means, that they are the ones that feel the pull of Chaos the least. That simply means that they aren't all Chaos Warriors constantly warring between each other for glory and immortality... It doesn't mean that they are in fact worshippers of Southern gods.... And it certainly, positively, without a doubt, and I cannot stress this more clear, doesn't mean that half of them worship Southern gods and not Chaos... ALL Norscans worship the Chaos Gods. To varying degrees these Norscans may borrow other gods in addition to the Chaos Gods.
Religion is more bloody complicated than that though now isn't it. Even the "Chaos factions" don't all literally or intentionally worship chaos, they have their own pantheon with their own gods and interpretations. Unlike the Kurgan, Hung and Tong, Norscan Chaos Worshippers (broadly speaking) don't literally invoke Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeentch or Slaanesh, they all have their own different interpretations of gods that may or may not directly or indirectly link to chaos.
Its like if someone in the Empire cheats on their wife or has an orgy or slaughters innocent people, are they worshippers of chaos? maybe, maybe not, but they are enacting the will of chaos and strengthening them whether they mean to or not.
The fact they use different names doesn't mean they don't worship them. It's literally stated by the book those are different names for the Chaos Gods and they aknowledge those gods by those names. This statement doesn't support anything you say.
"Chaos Worshippers" like Beorg Bearstruck can still happily work alongside and for humans and order factions, clans like the Bjornlings and so on still happily work with and trade with order factions. Skeggi is noted for having some chaos worshippers and yet they have a hundreds-year-long history of housing and working with people from order factions, etc, etc.
Even if they are technically a "Chaos tribe" of Norsca, this doesn't make them pure evil and in direct service to or communication with the dark gods themselves.
Yes, pragmaticism, that again doesn't disprove the fact they are chaos worshippers, just that they can hide it well. I don't think Chaos is inherently evil, that's why they aren't your bog standard evil as well. You're still not proving they aren't chaos worshippers, in fact you are countering it by showing chaos worshippers can adapt to other cultures irrelevant of it.
"No sane human willingly answers the call of the Dark Gods"
Unless they had a gun to their head and/or they're a warrior culture who believe that Glory in battle is the only way to get into the afterlife.
I'm sorry but I seriously need to stop here and continue this for a second because you're literally arguing that 'no sane person' would want to die in battle for whatever reason, when this is 1 to 1 a copy-paste representation of what the Vikings actually believed in real live. You are essentially arguing from your modern, culturally christian mindset that 'no sane person would have a different belief system from me' when this literally happened in real life, more than once.
Yes, they wouldn't still. That glory in battle desire comes from Khorne, as has been stated before.
I'm not even Christian you idiot so you're already wrong about your delusional perception of what I am and why I'm saying it. I'm saying no one would willingly go along to war with gods that are not theirs for them without a good reason. If it mattered to them they would leave. If death in battle was the way to heaven they would fight the Chaos hordes sooner than fight with them. That's what the Gospodars did. Norscans do not and it's been shown that they are simply pragmatic when it comes to dealing with southerners. You proved nothing.
The only thing you can say is that there are some remains of a dead religion from before Chaos took Norsca, but those are few and far in between. Nothing like HALF that you keep claiming.
"There's nothing to show the southern tribes are unwilling, just that they're pragmatic in times of piece. That is not proof that they don't worship Chaos."
I never said they don't worship Chaos and I'm not saying none of them are unwilling, I'm, again attempting to inject nuance into the situation and the reasoning behind it. I'm saying not all of them Worship Chaos, some worship order gods and many worship them totally indirectly and unintentionally.
From the get go I stated how Norsca was split in two (which it is) that some of them worship order gods or worship loads of gods that aren't directly Khorne and the others (which they do) and that they work often with order factions (which they do) they are even described in the books as ambivalent and the books demythologise misconceptions around the faction by stating how most people see them as opposed to how they are, and how they are divided and ambivalent most of the time, even though technically they are a Chaos faction, they're very nuanced.
I'm fine with the representation in-game, they have no Chaos Spawn, Chaos Warriors, Chosen or any of that crap and they shouldn't have that. Furthermore, in-game as Wulfric you have the option to Join Chaos or defy the call and attempt to fight them off head on, which is also extremely loreful.
You're trying to inject your so called nuance into HALF OF NORSCA. That nuance is not in any way representative of what Norsca is. Even the SOuthern Tribes raid in the time of peace, it's just that they're also capable of diplomacy as they're pragmatic. It doesn't prove your nuance as there is none. Even the Southern Tribes heed the call without any doubt, without trying to oppose the gods, they are not at all bothered with having to attack others.
There has not been a single scenario when Norscans are suddenly turning against Chaos in any significant numbers in opposition to their behaviour.
Your attempt at so called nuance is completely blind to the fact that the number of Norscans that are "neutral" is minor. As in, barely any are mentioned. Vast majority of Norscans are full on Chaos worshipping marauders. To suddenly have the southern half of Norsca as some neutral faction as you propose is ridiculous. That's when you started rewriting it as you desire it to be, because you have this strange fetish to make every faction neutral in some way, talking down on any faction you deem too evil. You talk down on Dark Elves and now you talk down on Norsca as well, to the point that you condemn that Norsca was made full evil and misrepresent the minority of Norscans that have a mild disposition to southerners as HALF of Norsca. In fact, yes, you DID CLAIM that they aren't Chaos worshippers, let me quote you VERBATIM:
"No you've got it in reverse. At least half of Norsca aren't chaos worshippers and either worship Ulric, Ursun or their own gods. Even those who worship Chaos often do so in ignorance and indirectly. "
So yes, you're lying and backpedalling to a more neutral position from which to pretend that you're not suggesting as ridiculous a claim and later will AGAIN claim that ridiculous claim. Like now you're saying "oh, they are doing it in ignorance" no, they simply use a different name, they are aware of what these gods are, they simply use a different name.
I'm simply of the opinion that if CA was to update the faction and add new stuff to them, they should play more into this duality and expand upon their unique theme, distancing them more from the Warriors of Chaos rather than just piling on a bunch of WoC units and Characters (this is something I'm sure we agree with and its why the community wants Norsca to get more undivided characters rather than Gutrot Spume and stuff like that).
Yes, that's all there is to you, you want CA to do them as you desire, that's all there is to your arguments. I don't care, no one here does either. I told you long ago, you don't care about the lore, you want it represented by your desires and people saying that is incorrect lore aren't made wrong by you trying to rewrite the lore in this game to fit with your desires.
Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
Not sure about Norsca LH id rather have someone like Lord Mortkin he fits the legendary theme more as well as not being a follower off any particular god.
VC sounds good he was always quite a fun character tho I wouldn't mind a Strigoi as it might fit, their bloodline being seen as beneath the others and more off an animal
GW did leave room for sympathy because the Norscans were the original inhabitants of the Empire, the Tutogen tribe (Ulric Worshippers) forced them out of their homeland into the frigid wastes to die, but the Norscans didn't die, it's like the original sin of the empire that comes back to haunt them. They also say multiple times in the lore that they're are loads of misconceptions around them, that they're looked down upon and demonised by other human nations and so forth.
I hate to break it to you but GW aren't that original, in fact, they're notorious for copying things 1 to 1 from other fantasy stories and real life: the black Plague, the crusades, Araby, Malekith, Asrai, Bretonnia and the Holy grail, the list goes on.
I mention Viking culture because it's relevent to bolster the points being made in the lore, to show a parallel or 1 to 1 comparison with their inspiration and I used it to counter points you two are making like 'well that wouldn't happen' or 'that doesn't make sense' when it literally happened in real life as well as the lore and thus is justified and feasible.
I've yet to hear you justify your bs idea that they believe these other gods as part of a ruse (a claim that, unlike mine, is unsourced).
I wanted Lord Mordkin too for his unaffiliation until someone pointed out to me that he specialises in Chaos Warriors and is himself a Chaos Warrior/Chosen Archetype, I believe he even has some unique Chaos Warrior/Chosen units and this he's more of a WoC character.
I've literally tried to extend an olive branch to you multiple times and actively attempted to get you to stop being such an ass to me, yet you've refused or ignored it. I'm not sure what I did long ago but ok cool.
The irony is that you always treat me like the enemy, like I'm evil, not the other way around. You even at one point said something along the lines of 'you care about the lore like a hunter cares about an elk, you treat it like worthless prey to be harvested for Total War' That's how mellow-dramatic you get about my beliefs and me as a person...but ok sure I guess I'm the sneaky evil one who wants to undermine the community and...make the game better...
GW did leave room for sympathy because the Norscans were the original inhabitants of the Empire, the Tutogen tribe (Ulric Worshippers) forced them out of their homeland into the frigid wastes to die, but the Norscans didn't die, it's like the original sin of the empire that comes back to haunt them. They also say multiple times in the lore that they're are loads of misconceptions around them, that they're looked down upon and demonised by other human nations and so forth.
This is actually wrong The photo Norscans AT BEST came in around the same time as the other tribes, if not later. They then proceeded to terrorize the Teutogens, the Unberogen etc. until Sigmar united the tribes and kicked their plundering teeth in and driving them back up north. If they hadn't been war loving, plundering chaos god worshipping fellas back then already, they probably wouldn't have been kicked out...
The Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. We need Marius Leitdorf of Averland!
Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him? For a Middenland DLC with Boris and the Ar-Ulric!
Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD!
Queek could smell their hatred, ratcheted to a degree that even he could not evoke in their simple hearts. He stepped over the old orange-fur’s body, eager to see for himself what it was they saw. But he heard it first. 'Waaaaaaaggh! Gorfang!'
I wanted Lord Mordkin too for his unaffiliation until someone pointed out to me that he specialises in Chaos Warriors and is himself a Chaos Warrior/Chosen Archetype, I believe he even has some unique Chaos Warrior/Chosen units and this he's more of a WoC character.
I think he fits both Norsca and WoC his rare in that he doesn't care for special treatment off a particular god but will take there blessing too help him get stronger.
I think his alot like Wulfrik has revenge on his mind and defeats what needs to be defeated to get stronger and see it done
I'd say personally his not a Warrior of Chaos LL as he isn't battling for them just for himself and follows his own path
GW did leave room for sympathy because the Norscans were the original inhabitants of the Empire, the Tutogen tribe (Ulric Worshippers) forced them out of their homeland into the frigid wastes to die, but the Norscans didn't die, it's like the original sin of the empire that comes back to haunt them. They also say multiple times in the lore that they're are loads of misconceptions around them, that they're looked down upon and demonised by other human nations and so forth.
I hate to break it to you but GW aren't that original, in fact, they're notorious for copying things 1 to 1 from other fantasy stories and real life: the black Plague, the crusades, Araby, Malekith, Asrai, Bretonnia and the Holy grail, the list goes on.
I mention Viking culture because it's relevent to bolster the points being made in the lore, to show a parallel or 1 to 1 comparison with their inspiration and I used it to counter points you two are making like 'well that wouldn't happen' or 'that doesn't make sense' when it literally happened in real life as well as the lore and thus is justified and feasible.
I've yet to hear you justify your bs idea that they believe these other gods as part of a ruse (a claim that, unlike mine, is unsourced).
What the flying aces of "huh?" are you talking about? No one, literally NO ONE, claimed that GW was original. Where the flaming hells did that even come from?
But, they are NOT copying 1:1..... Let me showcase you, in an incomplete list of why it isn't 1:1.
Giles le Breton is a character inspired by King Arthur. But King Arthur enver found the Holy Grail, that was Sir Galahad (which is just ONE of the multiple examples of GW not copying 1:1). The Witch King being named Malekith and being ruler of the Dark Elves is literally the only simily between 'Malekith the Accursed' and 'Malekith the Witch King'. Asrai in english myth are WATER nymphs not Wood Elves, so that is not evena copy of any thing else than the word. Araby, in the context of Sinbad the Sailor, is a far cry from the Arabia that Sinbad visits. It is more akin to a dark and twisted Arabia, as if demonised by Europeans. And last I checked the Black Death was not perpetrated by mutant Ratmen, nor called down upon us by some esoteric corpulent God from a mirror dimension....
The Norscans are just a further reinterpreted, caricature of Vikings as seen by Dark Ages Europeans. Simple as that. After you take the concept of reinterpreted Viking caricatures, you just add the flavour of Chaos, and you have what Norscans are.
I've literally tried to extend an olive branch to you multiple times and actively attempted to get you to stop being such an ass to me, yet you've refused or ignored it. I'm not sure what I did long ago but ok cool.
The irony is that you always treat me like the enemy, like I'm evil, not the other way around. You even at one point said something along the lines of 'you care about the lore like a hunter cares about an elk, you treat it like worthless prey to be harvested for Total War' That's how mellow-dramatic you get about my beliefs and me as a person...
Yes, and you said to someone when talking about me, and others who show you when you're wrong about the lore, that we are self absorbed people who self declare themselves as experts when we know nothing and how you need to excise us out of the forums through strict talking etc.(paraphrasing but I fully know what you meant) Look, I don't care for your melodrama about how you think you're being hunted. You had many attempts to simply accept that people don't agree with how you want things and no amount of attempts by you to rewrite it is gonna make them change their minds.
I would've been fine not having to deal with this but you're an aggressive revisionist and your comments made me realize that, yes, you're right, there is a toxic person on these forums that needs to be fought but you're wrong on who that is. Everyone else, I'm willing to let it slide, but when you're so self absorbed that you lack any self awareness and will willingly oppose anyone who disagrees then yes, you demand to be fought if necessary. You can say all you want how much you extended the olive branch, anyone else giving it would have a warmer welcome from me but in your case I know what your intent really is. And even after all this time you haven't changed.
So, it's simple.
1. You can accept that we will never meet eye to eye and that's that. I would not even oppose you that much if that was simply the case. For instance there's ArneSo who really goes along with a lot of things, not much point opposing him as he's quite friendly. You have SerPus who just hard lines the armybooks but again, not much point to it as people are set in their ways. You however, lack self awareness to see that those here aren't evil by nature and as much as you try to say you don't see them as bad you still are unapologetically agressive towards them for no real reason. I presented you this option a long time ago and you didn't care. And you still don't. Because that's not enough for you.
2. You can continue down this self chosen road while morally grandstanding how I hound you whenever you oppose the lore and I will continue to point out your incorrectness at every turn, justified in my actions by the very words you spoke. I have no problems showing your own incorrectness and how you rewrite it to fit your needs. I'm not hounding you, I'm still debating it as always.
3. Or, most unlikely option, you start telling the actual lore and I won't have a reason to oppose you. But I'm not accepting this fake offering which is, in reality, you wanting a pass to claim whatever you want about lore. I'm just not that naive to fall for this deception.
But that's enough of that. I will no more speak about all of this. You want to actually not end up debatting like this with everyone? Start quoting actual lore rather than rewriting it to fit your desires.
Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
GW did leave room for sympathy because the Norscans were the original inhabitants of the Empire, the Tutogen tribe (Ulric Worshippers) forced them out of their homeland into the frigid wastes to die, but the Norscans didn't die, it's like the original sin of the empire that comes back to haunt them. They also say multiple times in the lore that they're are loads of misconceptions around them, that they're looked down upon and demonised by other human nations and so forth.
I hate to break it to you but GW aren't that original, in fact, they're notorious for copying things 1 to 1 from other fantasy stories and real life: the black Plague, the crusades, Araby, Malekith, Asrai, Bretonnia and the Holy grail, the list goes on.
I mention Viking culture because it's relevent to bolster the points being made in the lore, to show a parallel or 1 to 1 comparison with their inspiration and I used it to counter points you two are making like 'well that wouldn't happen' or 'that doesn't make sense' when it literally happened in real life as well as the lore and thus is justified and feasible.
I've yet to hear you justify your bs idea that they believe these other gods as part of a ruse (a claim that, unlike mine, is unsourced).
What the flying aces of "huh?" are you talking about? No one, literally NO ONE, claimed that GW was original. Where the flaming hells did that even come from?
But, they are NOT copying 1:1..... Let me showcase you, in an incomplete list of why it isn't 1:1.
Giles le Breton is a character inspired by King Arthur. But King Arthur enver found the Holy Grail, that was Sir Galahad (which is just ONE of the multiple examples of GW not copying 1:1). The Witch King being named Malekith and being ruler of the Dark Elves is literally the only simily between 'Malekith the Accursed' and 'Malekith the Witch King'. Asrai in english myth are WATER nymphs not Wood Elves, so that is not evena copy of any thing else than the word. Araby, in the context of Sinbad the Sailor, is a far cry from the Arabia that Sinbad visits. It is more akin to a dark and twisted Arabia, as if demonised by Europeans. And last I checked the Black Death was not perpetrated by mutant Ratmen, nor called down upon us by some esoteric corpulent God from a mirror dimension....
The Norscans are just a further reinterpreted, caricature of Vikings as seen by Dark Ages Europeans. Simple as that. After you take the concept of reinterpreted Viking caricatures, you just add the flavour of Chaos, and you have what Norscans are.
According to this logic the three original endings of Mass effect 3 are totally different, because each is a different colour. Yes GWs changed small things. Instead of galahad arthur found the grail, instead of normal rats giant rats brought the plague, jean d'arc just did not die. Not to mention cathay and nippon...
These changes are so miniscule that you could rhetoricly speaking say it is 1:1 the source material. Keyword rhetoricly speaking. But nuance is lost in the internet. Everything must be 100 percent literal and be fought to the bitter end.
Anyway this thread has goneboff topic enough.
Can anyone please stop and concentrate on the topic?
GW did leave room for sympathy because the Norscans were the original inhabitants of the Empire, the Tutogen tribe (Ulric Worshippers) forced them out of their homeland into the frigid wastes to die, but the Norscans didn't die, it's like the original sin of the empire that comes back to haunt them. They also say multiple times in the lore that they're are loads of misconceptions around them, that they're looked down upon and demonised by other human nations and so forth.
I hate to break it to you but GW aren't that original, in fact, they're notorious for copying things 1 to 1 from other fantasy stories and real life: the black Plague, the crusades, Araby, Malekith, Asrai, Bretonnia and the Holy grail, the list goes on.
I mention Viking culture because it's relevent to bolster the points being made in the lore, to show a parallel or 1 to 1 comparison with their inspiration and I used it to counter points you two are making like 'well that wouldn't happen' or 'that doesn't make sense' when it literally happened in real life as well as the lore and thus is justified and feasible.
I've yet to hear you justify your bs idea that they believe these other gods as part of a ruse (a claim that, unlike mine, is unsourced).
What the flying aces of "huh?" are you talking about? No one, literally NO ONE, claimed that GW was original. Where the flaming hells did that even come from?
But, they are NOT copying 1:1..... Let me showcase you, in an incomplete list of why it isn't 1:1.
Giles le Breton is a character inspired by King Arthur. But King Arthur enver found the Holy Grail, that was Sir Galahad (which is just ONE of the multiple examples of GW not copying 1:1). The Witch King being named Malekith and being ruler of the Dark Elves is literally the only simily between 'Malekith the Accursed' and 'Malekith the Witch King'. Asrai in english myth are WATER nymphs not Wood Elves, so that is not evena copy of any thing else than the word. Araby, in the context of Sinbad the Sailor, is a far cry from the Arabia that Sinbad visits. It is more akin to a dark and twisted Arabia, as if demonised by Europeans. And last I checked the Black Death was not perpetrated by mutant Ratmen, nor called down upon us by some esoteric corpulent God from a mirror dimension....
The Norscans are just a further reinterpreted, caricature of Vikings as seen by Dark Ages Europeans. Simple as that. After you take the concept of reinterpreted Viking caricatures, you just add the flavour of Chaos, and you have what Norscans are.
According to this logic the three original endings of Mass effect 3 are totally different, because each is a different colour. Yes GWs changed small things. Instead of galahad arthur found the grail, instead of normal rats giant rats brought the plague, jean d'arc just did not die. Not to mention cathay and nippon...
These changes are so miniscule that you could rhetoricly speaking say it is 1:1 the source material. Keyword rhetoricly speaking
Anyway this thread has goneboff topic enough.
Can anyone please stop and concentrate on the topic?
GW did leave room for sympathy because the Norscans were the original inhabitants of the Empire, the Tutogen tribe (Ulric Worshippers) forced them out of their homeland into the frigid wastes to die, but the Norscans didn't die, it's like the original sin of the empire that comes back to haunt them. They also say multiple times in the lore that they're are loads of misconceptions around them, that they're looked down upon and demonised by other human nations and so forth.
I hate to break it to you but GW aren't that original, in fact, they're notorious for copying things 1 to 1 from other fantasy stories and real life: the black Plague, the crusades, Araby, Malekith, Asrai, Bretonnia and the Holy grail, the list goes on.
I mention Viking culture because it's relevent to bolster the points being made in the lore, to show a parallel or 1 to 1 comparison with their inspiration and I used it to counter points you two are making like 'well that wouldn't happen' or 'that doesn't make sense' when it literally happened in real life as well as the lore and thus is justified and feasible.
I've yet to hear you justify your bs idea that they believe these other gods as part of a ruse (a claim that, unlike mine, is unsourced).
What the flying aces of "huh?" are you talking about? No one, literally NO ONE, claimed that GW was original. Where the flaming hells did that even come from?
But, they are NOT copying 1:1..... Let me showcase you, in an incomplete list of why it isn't 1:1.
Giles le Breton is a character inspired by King Arthur. But King Arthur enver found the Holy Grail, that was Sir Galahad (which is just ONE of the multiple examples of GW not copying 1:1). The Witch King being named Malekith and being ruler of the Dark Elves is literally the only simily between 'Malekith the Accursed' and 'Malekith the Witch King'. Asrai in english myth are WATER nymphs not Wood Elves, so that is not evena copy of any thing else than the word. Araby, in the context of Sinbad the Sailor, is a far cry from the Arabia that Sinbad visits. It is more akin to a dark and twisted Arabia, as if demonised by Europeans. And last I checked the Black Death was not perpetrated by mutant Ratmen, nor called down upon us by some esoteric corpulent God from a mirror dimension....
The Norscans are just a further reinterpreted, caricature of Vikings as seen by Dark Ages Europeans. Simple as that. After you take the concept of reinterpreted Viking caricatures, you just add the flavour of Chaos, and you have what Norscans are.
According to this logic the three original endings of Mass effect 3 are totally different, because each is a different colour. Yes GWs changed small things. Instead of galahad arthur found the grail, instead of normal rats giant rats brought the plague, jean d'arc just did not die. Not to mention cathay and nippon...
These changes are so miniscule that you could rhetoricly speaking say it is 1:1 the source material. Keyword rhetoricly speaking
Anyway this thread has goneboff topic enough.
Can anyone please stop and concentrate on the topic?
I don't think you udnerstand what 1:1 means...
I don't think you understand the concept of rhetorical exeggeration or nuance. Or are you 100 percent serious if you visit a resteraunt and say: that is the beast thing I have ever eaten?
Wait...that's my true colours? I never backed down from that and I'd still say that now because its the truth.
I want us to either agree to disagree or I want you to mellow out like Arthas did. Loremaster of Sotek himself is a great example of a lore nerd who is reasonable, he knows GW aren't perfect and understand that some things are gonna be included that he doesn't like but hes more reasonable about it and understands his limits (more importantly he's also smart enough to understand the ulterior motives of GW, understand the inspiration behind things and to poke fun at the series being uninspired here or stupid there).
I've encountered people like you in communities from other franchises as well and I know people and have heard from people who have experienced it themselves in other franchises from Sonic, to Pokemon, Warhammer, Skyrim, everything.
People like you who think just because you've read something you understand it and who think your truth is THE truth, who have a feeling of personal ownership over the lore and who have devised a personal head-cannon of what is and isn't loreful within it, so when it comes to adapt it to another medium or into the sequel you rage when half the lore that you ignored, failed to understand or simply don't like gets adapted along with all your head cannon.
I could go on. Really though, I don't need to, I don't always get in your way and I don't always grandstand, in fact, I've gotten more used to leaving you be and putting down a discussion when I've said my peace and to continue would be to simply repeat my points.
Why are you bringing other people into this? I mostly agree with ArneSo, very rarely do we but heads if at all. SerPus is someone I've barely talked to at all and when I have, we disagree for the exact reason you stated. There is a reason to challenge someone who is 'set in their ways' if those ways are wrong and harm the community. the belief that the Army books are all that matters makes the community worse at predicting stuff, more hostile to CA and limits what we can suggest and by extension what they can provide.
GW did leave room for sympathy because the Norscans were the original inhabitants of the Empire, the Tutogen tribe (Ulric Worshippers) forced them out of their homeland into the frigid wastes to die, but the Norscans didn't die, it's like the original sin of the empire that comes back to haunt them. They also say multiple times in the lore that they're are loads of misconceptions around them, that they're looked down upon and demonised by other human nations and so forth.
I hate to break it to you but GW aren't that original, in fact, they're notorious for copying things 1 to 1 from other fantasy stories and real life: the black Plague, the crusades, Araby, Malekith, Asrai, Bretonnia and the Holy grail, the list goes on.
I mention Viking culture because it's relevent to bolster the points being made in the lore, to show a parallel or 1 to 1 comparison with their inspiration and I used it to counter points you two are making like 'well that wouldn't happen' or 'that doesn't make sense' when it literally happened in real life as well as the lore and thus is justified and feasible.
I've yet to hear you justify your bs idea that they believe these other gods as part of a ruse (a claim that, unlike mine, is unsourced).
What the flying aces of "huh?" are you talking about? No one, literally NO ONE, claimed that GW was original. Where the flaming hells did that even come from?
But, they are NOT copying 1:1..... Let me showcase you, in an incomplete list of why it isn't 1:1.
Giles le Breton is a character inspired by King Arthur. But King Arthur enver found the Holy Grail, that was Sir Galahad (which is just ONE of the multiple examples of GW not copying 1:1). The Witch King being named Malekith and being ruler of the Dark Elves is literally the only simily between 'Malekith the Accursed' and 'Malekith the Witch King'. Asrai in english myth are WATER nymphs not Wood Elves, so that is not evena copy of any thing else than the word. Araby, in the context of Sinbad the Sailor, is a far cry from the Arabia that Sinbad visits. It is more akin to a dark and twisted Arabia, as if demonised by Europeans. And last I checked the Black Death was not perpetrated by mutant Ratmen, nor called down upon us by some esoteric corpulent God from a mirror dimension....
The Norscans are just a further reinterpreted, caricature of Vikings as seen by Dark Ages Europeans. Simple as that. After you take the concept of reinterpreted Viking caricatures, you just add the flavour of Chaos, and you have what Norscans are.
According to this logic the three original endings of Mass effect 3 are totally different, because each is a different colour. Yes GWs changed small things. Instead of galahad arthur found the grail, instead of normal rats giant rats brought the plague, jean d'arc just did not die. Not to mention cathay and nippon...
These changes are so miniscule that you could rhetoricly speaking say it is 1:1 the source material. Keyword rhetoricly speaking
Anyway this thread has goneboff topic enough.
Can anyone please stop and concentrate on the topic?
I don't think you udnerstand what 1:1 means...
I don't think you understand the concept of rhetorical exeggeration or nuance. Or are you 100 percent serious if you visit a resteraunt and say: that is the beast thing I have ever eaten?
But that is still off topic.
First of all, the three different endings of Mass Effect WERE different, since they gave you three different end results in the canon. Rhetorical hyperbole only functions if the statement you make, isn't demonstrably false or hold any truths.
Example of correct hyperbole: "The endings of Mass Effect 3 were so similar I can't even tell them apart". in this example you express that the endings were similar (which they were) and you overexagerate your own experience of them as such. People know you are exagerating and trying to make a point.
Example of incorrect hyperbole: "The endings of Mass Effect 3 were literally the same". In this case you make a false statement that is demonstrably wrong. Without knowledge of your physical gestures and tone of voice, people have no way of knowing whether you were trying to be coy, make a point or actually think they are the same.
In the case of this thread, SeanJeanquoi are trying to first translate the Norscan culture 1:1 to our world Norse culture. Then he tries to go go back and re-translate the aprts that fit from norse culture into the Norscan in a retroactive fit. He is trying to use his own twisted circular logic to fit his own arguements while trying to dismiss others' attempt at showing him where he is wrong.
GW did leave room for sympathy because the Norscans were the original inhabitants of the Empire, the Tutogen tribe (Ulric Worshippers) forced them out of their homeland into the frigid wastes to die, but the Norscans didn't die, it's like the original sin of the empire that comes back to haunt them. They also say multiple times in the lore that they're are loads of misconceptions around them, that they're looked down upon and demonised by other human nations and so forth.
I hate to break it to you but GW aren't that original, in fact, they're notorious for copying things 1 to 1 from other fantasy stories and real life: the black Plague, the crusades, Araby, Malekith, Asrai, Bretonnia and the Holy grail, the list goes on.
I mention Viking culture because it's relevent to bolster the points being made in the lore, to show a parallel or 1 to 1 comparison with their inspiration and I used it to counter points you two are making like 'well that wouldn't happen' or 'that doesn't make sense' when it literally happened in real life as well as the lore and thus is justified and feasible.
I've yet to hear you justify your bs idea that they believe these other gods as part of a ruse (a claim that, unlike mine, is unsourced).
What the flying aces of "huh?" are you talking about? No one, literally NO ONE, claimed that GW was original. Where the flaming hells did that even come from?
But, they are NOT copying 1:1..... Let me showcase you, in an incomplete list of why it isn't 1:1.
Giles le Breton is a character inspired by King Arthur. But King Arthur enver found the Holy Grail, that was Sir Galahad (which is just ONE of the multiple examples of GW not copying 1:1). The Witch King being named Malekith and being ruler of the Dark Elves is literally the only simily between 'Malekith the Accursed' and 'Malekith the Witch King'. Asrai in english myth are WATER nymphs not Wood Elves, so that is not evena copy of any thing else than the word. Araby, in the context of Sinbad the Sailor, is a far cry from the Arabia that Sinbad visits. It is more akin to a dark and twisted Arabia, as if demonised by Europeans. And last I checked the Black Death was not perpetrated by mutant Ratmen, nor called down upon us by some esoteric corpulent God from a mirror dimension....
The Norscans are just a further reinterpreted, caricature of Vikings as seen by Dark Ages Europeans. Simple as that. After you take the concept of reinterpreted Viking caricatures, you just add the flavour of Chaos, and you have what Norscans are.
According to this logic the three original endings of Mass effect 3 are totally different, because each is a different colour. Yes GWs changed small things. Instead of galahad arthur found the grail, instead of normal rats giant rats brought the plague, jean d'arc just did not die. Not to mention cathay and nippon...
These changes are so miniscule that you could rhetoricly speaking say it is 1:1 the source material. Keyword rhetoricly speaking
Anyway this thread has goneboff topic enough.
Can anyone please stop and concentrate on the topic?
I don't think you udnerstand what 1:1 means...
I don't think you understand the concept of rhetorical exeggeration or nuance. Or are you 100 percent serious if you visit a resteraunt and say: that is the beast thing I have ever eaten?
But that is still off topic.
First of all, the three different endings of Mass Effect WERE different, since they gave you three different end results in the canon. Rhetorical hyperbole only functions if the statement you make, isn't demonstrably false or hold any truths.
Example of correct hyperbole: "The endings of Mass Effect 3 were so similar I can't even tell them apart". in this example you express that the endings were similar (which they were) and you overexagerate your own experience of them as such. People know you are exagerating and trying to make a point.
Example of incorrect hyperbole: "The endings of Mass Effect 3 were literally the same". In this case you make a false statement that is demonstrably wrong. Without knowledge of your physical gestures and tone of voice, people have no way of knowing whether you were trying to be coy, make a point or actually think they are the same.
In the case of this thread, SeanJeanquoi are trying to first translate the Norscan culture 1:1 to our world Norse culture. Then he tries to go go back and re-translate the aprts that fit from norse culture into the Norscan in a retroactive fit. He is trying to use his own twisted circular logic to fit his own arguements while trying to dismiss others' attempt at showing him where he is wrong.
Before the extended cut all people could see were three different colours. What the consequences of each ending were, could not be determined by the players. Two times the reapers retreat, one time they fall down. The rest is a green, blue or red light. There were memes, protests, even cupcakes on how similar they were.
But again nuance or rhetorical simplifications appears to be lost on you.
you cannot assume that everyone on the internet is strictly using your terms of formulation. Even if you have just a text, you can often see how s/he meant this sentence, when you think a short while about their position.
Anyway, please everyone stop with this derailment. I am out
GW did leave room for sympathy because the Norscans were the original inhabitants of the Empire, the Tutogen tribe (Ulric Worshippers) forced them out of their homeland into the frigid wastes to die, but the Norscans didn't die, it's like the original sin of the empire that comes back to haunt them. They also say multiple times in the lore that they're are loads of misconceptions around them, that they're looked down upon and demonised by other human nations and so forth.
I hate to break it to you but GW aren't that original, in fact, they're notorious for copying things 1 to 1 from other fantasy stories and real life: the black Plague, the crusades, Araby, Malekith, Asrai, Bretonnia and the Holy grail, the list goes on.
I mention Viking culture because it's relevent to bolster the points being made in the lore, to show a parallel or 1 to 1 comparison with their inspiration and I used it to counter points you two are making like 'well that wouldn't happen' or 'that doesn't make sense' when it literally happened in real life as well as the lore and thus is justified and feasible.
I've yet to hear you justify your bs idea that they believe these other gods as part of a ruse (a claim that, unlike mine, is unsourced).
What the flying aces of "huh?" are you talking about? No one, literally NO ONE, claimed that GW was original. Where the flaming hells did that even come from?
But, they are NOT copying 1:1..... Let me showcase you, in an incomplete list of why it isn't 1:1.
Giles le Breton is a character inspired by King Arthur. But King Arthur enver found the Holy Grail, that was Sir Galahad (which is just ONE of the multiple examples of GW not copying 1:1). The Witch King being named Malekith and being ruler of the Dark Elves is literally the only simily between 'Malekith the Accursed' and 'Malekith the Witch King'. Asrai in english myth are WATER nymphs not Wood Elves, so that is not evena copy of any thing else than the word. Araby, in the context of Sinbad the Sailor, is a far cry from the Arabia that Sinbad visits. It is more akin to a dark and twisted Arabia, as if demonised by Europeans. And last I checked the Black Death was not perpetrated by mutant Ratmen, nor called down upon us by some esoteric corpulent God from a mirror dimension....
The Norscans are just a further reinterpreted, caricature of Vikings as seen by Dark Ages Europeans. Simple as that. After you take the concept of reinterpreted Viking caricatures, you just add the flavour of Chaos, and you have what Norscans are.
According to this logic the three original endings of Mass effect 3 are totally different, because each is a different colour. Yes GWs changed small things. Instead of galahad arthur found the grail, instead of normal rats giant rats brought the plague, jean d'arc just did not die. Not to mention cathay and nippon...
These changes are so miniscule that you could rhetoricly speaking say it is 1:1 the source material. Keyword rhetoricly speaking
Anyway this thread has goneboff topic enough.
Can anyone please stop and concentrate on the topic?
I don't think you udnerstand what 1:1 means...
I don't think you understand the concept of rhetorical exeggeration or nuance. Or are you 100 percent serious if you visit a resteraunt and say: that is the beast thing I have ever eaten?
But that is still off topic.
First of all, the three different endings of Mass Effect WERE different, since they gave you three different end results in the canon. Rhetorical hyperbole only functions if the statement you make, isn't demonstrably false or hold any truths.
Example of correct hyperbole: "The endings of Mass Effect 3 were so similar I can't even tell them apart". in this example you express that the endings were similar (which they were) and you overexagerate your own experience of them as such. People know you are exagerating and trying to make a point.
Example of incorrect hyperbole: "The endings of Mass Effect 3 were literally the same". In this case you make a false statement that is demonstrably wrong. Without knowledge of your physical gestures and tone of voice, people have no way of knowing whether you were trying to be coy, make a point or actually think they are the same.
In the case of this thread, SeanJeanquoi are trying to first translate the Norscan culture 1:1 to our world Norse culture. Then he tries to go go back and re-translate the aprts that fit from norse culture into the Norscan in a retroactive fit. He is trying to use his own twisted circular logic to fit his own arguements while trying to dismiss others' attempt at showing him where he is wrong.
Before the extended cut all people could see were three different colours. What the consequences of each ending were, could not be determined by the players. Two times the reapers retreat, one time they fall down. The rest is a green, blue or red light. There were memes, protests, even cupcakes on how similar they were. But again nuance appears to be lost on you.
Anyway, please everyone stop with this derailment.
I "very strongly" suggest that a number of folks take a deep breath, and immediately stop the derogatory remarks and inappropriate characterizations to or about those with opposing opinions.
From the Forum T&C: (https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/172193/forum-terms-and-conditions#latest) Be respectful to everyone on the forums. Flaming, insulting or abusing anyone will not be tolerated. Please use the appropriate language for the section of the forums you are using. 1) Respect:] 1.1 Please do not disrespect any other forum users, including volunteer moderators or CA staff 1.2a Please do not practice negative behaviour: personal attacks/bashing/baiting/spamming, etc. 1.2b Please do not use taunting/trolling (behaviour with the deliberate goal of being controversial or offensive)
1.5 Avoid using words or phrases with all capital letters (it is considered shouting)
2) False Information and illegal content: 2.1 You will not use this forum to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, is material of a sexual matter, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise unlawful.
If the remarks continue in the discussion posts then warnings/infractions with be given to the offenders, and the thread closed.
dge1
"The two most common things in the universe are Hydrogen and Stupidity." - Harlan Ellison
"The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." - Hubert H. Humphrey
"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin/Mark Twain
“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”–George Santayana, The Life of Reason, 1905.
I "very strongly" suggest that a number of folks take a deep breath, and immediately stop the derogatory remarks and inappropriate characterizations to or about those with opposing opinions.
From the Forum T&C: (https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/172193/forum-terms-and-conditions#latest) Be respectful to everyone on the forums. Flaming, insulting or abusing anyone will not be tolerated. Please use the appropriate language for the section of the forums you are using. 1) Respect:] 1.1 Please do not disrespect any other forum users, including volunteer moderators or CA staff 1.2a Please do not practice negative behaviour: personal attacks/bashing/baiting/spamming, etc. 1.2b Please do not use taunting/trolling (behaviour with the deliberate goal of being controversial or offensive)
1.5 Avoid using words or phrases with all capital letters (it is considered shouting)
2) False Information and illegal content: 2.1 You will not use this forum to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, is material of a sexual matter, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise unlawful.
If the remarks continue in the discussion posts then warnings/infractions with be given to the offenders, and the thread closed.
dge1
You should've just purged. It was for the greater good.
So...the Light's vaunted justice has finally arrived. Shall I lay down Frostmourne and throw myself at your mercy, Fordring?
Don't waste your time discussing with people who thinks Norsca doesn't worship Chaos. This is the warhammer equivalent to flat earthers, and proofs don't work on them. Neither empirism nor rationalism will work on them.
One or more of dge1 signature quotes are perfect for this case.
And on topic, I would rather have Scylla with Chaos. Konrad would be nice though.
"You stumble about in darkness. There is no light here, no mercy. Naggarond has claimed the souls of better heroes than you."
I think debating the lore accuracy of Norsca's implementation is a fool's errand. It's utterly mind-blowing that innately Undivided Lords are declaring for a single monogod anyways, without instantly being turned in to a chaos spawn.
Norsca needs to lose that aspect badly, it's so lore inaccurate that it hurts.
I think debating the lore accuracy of Norsca's implementation is a fool's errand. It's utterly mind-blowing that innately Undivided Lords are declaring for a single monogod anyways, without instantly being turned in to a chaos spawn.
Norsca needs to lose that aspect badly, it's so lore inaccurate that it hurts.
remove that aspect and Norsca ends up as basically slightly fancier WH 1 Dwarfs in campaign design.
It'd also be much worse if they would add Egyl Styrbjorn or any other actually God devoted character and allow them to choose a god.
Would it have been nice if they'd have added a "Undivided" option? Yeah. But I see why they didn't... might be an idea for modders though, or an addition somewhere down the line.
The Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. We need Marius Leitdorf of Averland!
Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him? For a Middenland DLC with Boris and the Ar-Ulric!
Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD!
Queek could smell their hatred, ratcheted to a degree that even he could not evoke in their simple hearts. He stepped over the old orange-fur’s body, eager to see for himself what it was they saw. But he heard it first. 'Waaaaaaaggh! Gorfang!'
"instead of normal rats giant rats brought the plague"
That's kinda making a small matter out of that a mixture of; horrible hygiene understanding, the soap not being a common household item yet, toilet paper not being used, hands not washed, food stored wrong, simply mankind not having grasped the concept of hygiene and contamination chains yet. Rats still carry a lot of yum-yum with them, as many animals. We just don't live and die in our own filth anymore allowing it to spread.
"instead of normal rats giant rats brought the plague"
That's kinda making a small matter out of that a mixture of; horrible hygiene understanding, the soap not being a common household item yet, toilet paper not being used, hands not washed, food stored wrong, simply mankind not having grasped the concept of hygiene and contamination chains yet. Rats still carry a lot of yum-yum with them, as many animals. We just don't live and die in our own filth anymore allowing it to spread.
Don't blame the rats kids - remember to wipe
For one, it was fleas on rats, than Soap actually WAS rather common. This wasn't the Renaissance and later, folks.
And in regards of Warhammer: Giant Rats that deliberately conconted terrible diseases.
The Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. We need Marius Leitdorf of Averland!
Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him? For a Middenland DLC with Boris and the Ar-Ulric!
Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD!
Queek could smell their hatred, ratcheted to a degree that even he could not evoke in their simple hearts. He stepped over the old orange-fur’s body, eager to see for himself what it was they saw. But he heard it first. 'Waaaaaaaggh! Gorfang!'
Comments
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0 · Disagree AgreeYou aren't evil, you're just stubborn I don't hate you, nor do I want to hate you, in fact I'd really love for us to get on, but we don't so hey ho...
Religion is more bloody complicated than that though now isn't it. Even the "Chaos factions" don't all literally or intentionally worship chaos, they have their own pantheon with their own gods and interpretations. Unlike the Kurgan, Hung and Tong, Norscan Chaos Worshippers (broadly speaking) don't literally invoke Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeentch or Slaanesh, they all have their own different interpretations of gods that may or may not directly or indirectly link to chaos.
Its like if someone in the Empire cheats on their wife or has an orgy or slaughters innocent people, are they worshippers of chaos? maybe, maybe not, but they are enacting the will of chaos and strengthening them whether they mean to or not.
"Chaos Worshippers" like Beorg Bearstruck can still happily work alongside and for humans and order factions, clans like the Bjornlings and so on still happily work with and trade with order factions. Skeggi is noted for having some chaos worshippers and yet they have a hundreds-year-long history of housing and working with people from order factions, etc, etc.
Even if they are technically a "Chaos tribe" of Norsca, this doesn't make them pure evil and in direct service to or communication with the dark gods themselves.
"No sane human willingly answers the call of the Dark Gods"
Unless they had a gun to their head and/or they're a warrior culture who believe that Glory in battle is the only way to get into the afterlife.
I'm sorry but I seriously need to stop here and continue this for a second because you're literally arguing that 'no sane person' would want to die in battle for whatever reason, when this is 1 to 1 a copy-paste representation of what the Vikings actually believed in real live. You are essentially arguing from your modern, culturally christian mindset that 'no sane person would have a different belief system from me' when this literally happened in real life, more than once.
"There's nothing to show the southern tribes are unwilling, just that they're pragmatic in times of piece. That is not proof that they don't worship Chaos."
I never said they don't worship Chaos and I'm not saying none of them are unwilling, I'm, again attempting to inject nuance into the situation and the reasoning behind it. I'm saying not all of them Worship Chaos, some worship order gods and many worship them totally indirectly and unintentionally.
From the get go I stated how Norsca was split in two (which it is) that some of them worship order gods or worship loads of gods that aren't directly Khorne and the others (which they do) and that they work often with order factions (which they do) they are even described in the books as ambivalent and the books demythologise misconceptions around the faction by stating how most people see them as opposed to how they are, and how they are divided and ambivalent most of the time, even though technically they are a Chaos faction, they're very nuanced.
I'm fine with the representation in-game, they have no Chaos Spawn, Chaos Warriors, Chosen or any of that crap and they shouldn't have that. Furthermore, in-game as Wulfric you have the option to Join Chaos or defy the call and attempt to fight them off head on, which is also extremely loreful.
I'm simply of the opinion that if CA was to update the faction and add new stuff to them, they should play more into this duality and expand upon their unique theme, distancing them more from the Warriors of Chaos rather than just piling on a bunch of WoC units and Characters (this is something I'm sure we agree with and its why the community wants Norsca to get more undivided characters rather than Gutrot Spume and stuff like that).
Vampire Counts
Bretonnia
Lizardmen
Dark Elves
High Elves
Skaven
Greenskins
Dwarfs
Wood Elves
Beastmen
Missing Factions Series
Dogs of War part 1
Dogs of War part 2
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1 · Disagree AgreeWhy do you persist in trying to apply our real world Viking culture to the Norscans?? Yes the Norscans are INSPIRED by Vikings, but you aren't meant to make a 1:1 connection...
You are reading about the Norscans, trying to see where that fits the Vikings, then taking THAT context and trying to superfit it down over the Norscans.. You ar eperverting both the Norscans AND our real life Vikings to fit into something that is representative of neither....
Just **** stop man.....
The Norscans are CHAOS Worshipeprs by their own choice. They worship these gods, ebcause they have a palpable power in Norsca and because they offer a way of life, that will lead them to an afterlife they value.
Norsca is, by no threat of violence, no compulsion, no coercion or manipulation a CHAOS faction. They choose that life, because it lends itself well to their culture and their lifestyle.
Games Workshop were not trying to hint that Norscans were redeemable or somehow forced to serve Chaos. They said, that since Norscans (in the context of the Old World) are the Southernmost Chaos faction, then it also means, that they are the ones that feel the pull of Chaos the least. That simply means that they aren't all Chaos Warriors constantly warring between each other for glory and immortality... It doesn't mean that they are in fact worshippers of Southern gods.... And it certainly, positively, without a doubt, and I cannot stress this more clear, doesn't mean that half of them worship Southern gods and not Chaos... ALL Norscans worship the Chaos Gods. To varying degrees these Norscans may borrow other gods in addition to the Chaos Gods.
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0 · Disagree AgreeI'm not even Christian you idiot so you're already wrong about your delusional perception of what I am and why I'm saying it. I'm saying no one would willingly go along to war with gods that are not theirs for them without a good reason. If it mattered to them they would leave. If death in battle was the way to heaven they would fight the Chaos hordes sooner than fight with them. That's what the Gospodars did. Norscans do not and it's been shown that they are simply pragmatic when it comes to dealing with southerners. You proved nothing.
The only thing you can say is that there are some remains of a dead religion from before Chaos took Norsca, but those are few and far in between. Nothing like HALF that you keep claiming. You're trying to inject your so called nuance into HALF OF NORSCA. That nuance is not in any way representative of what Norsca is. Even the SOuthern Tribes raid in the time of peace, it's just that they're also capable of diplomacy as they're pragmatic. It doesn't prove your nuance as there is none. Even the Southern Tribes heed the call without any doubt, without trying to oppose the gods, they are not at all bothered with having to attack others.
There has not been a single scenario when Norscans are suddenly turning against Chaos in any significant numbers in opposition to their behaviour.
Your attempt at so called nuance is completely blind to the fact that the number of Norscans that are "neutral" is minor. As in, barely any are mentioned. Vast majority of Norscans are full on Chaos worshipping marauders. To suddenly have the southern half of Norsca as some neutral faction as you propose is ridiculous. That's when you started rewriting it as you desire it to be, because you have this strange fetish to make every faction neutral in some way, talking down on any faction you deem too evil. You talk down on Dark Elves and now you talk down on Norsca as well, to the point that you condemn that Norsca was made full evil and misrepresent the minority of Norscans that have a mild disposition to southerners as HALF of Norsca. In fact, yes, you DID CLAIM that they aren't Chaos worshippers, let me quote you VERBATIM:
"No you've got it in reverse. At least half of Norsca aren't chaos worshippers and either worship Ulric, Ursun or their own gods. Even those who worship Chaos often do so in ignorance and indirectly. "
So yes, you're lying and backpedalling to a more neutral position from which to pretend that you're not suggesting as ridiculous a claim and later will AGAIN claim that ridiculous claim. Like now you're saying "oh, they are doing it in ignorance" no, they simply use a different name, they are aware of what these gods are, they simply use a different name. Yes, that's all there is to you, you want CA to do them as you desire, that's all there is to your arguments. I don't care, no one here does either. I told you long ago, you don't care about the lore, you want it represented by your desires and people saying that is incorrect lore aren't made wrong by you trying to rewrite the lore in this game to fit with your desires.
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0 · Disagree AgreeVC sounds good he was always quite a fun character tho I wouldn't mind a Strigoi as it might fit, their bloodline being seen as beneath the others and more off an animal
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0 · Disagree AgreeGW did leave room for sympathy because the Norscans were the original inhabitants of the Empire, the Tutogen tribe (Ulric Worshippers) forced them out of their homeland into the frigid wastes to die, but the Norscans didn't die, it's like the original sin of the empire that comes back to haunt them. They also say multiple times in the lore that they're are loads of misconceptions around them, that they're looked down upon and demonised by other human nations and so forth.
I hate to break it to you but GW aren't that original, in fact, they're notorious for copying things 1 to 1 from other fantasy stories and real life: the black Plague, the crusades, Araby, Malekith, Asrai, Bretonnia and the Holy grail, the list goes on.
I mention Viking culture because it's relevent to bolster the points being made in the lore, to show a parallel or 1 to 1 comparison with their inspiration and I used it to counter points you two are making like 'well that wouldn't happen' or 'that doesn't make sense' when it literally happened in real life as well as the lore and thus is justified and feasible.
I've yet to hear you justify your bs idea that they believe these other gods as part of a ruse (a claim that, unlike mine, is unsourced).
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0 · Disagree AgreeI wanted Lord Mordkin too for his unaffiliation until someone pointed out to me that he specialises in Chaos Warriors and is himself a Chaos Warrior/Chosen Archetype, I believe he even has some unique Chaos Warrior/Chosen units and this he's more of a WoC character.
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0 · Disagree AgreeI've literally tried to extend an olive branch to you multiple times and actively attempted to get you to stop being such an ass to me, yet you've refused or ignored it. I'm not sure what I did long ago but ok cool.
The irony is that you always treat me like the enemy, like I'm evil, not the other way around. You even at one point said something along the lines of 'you care about the lore like a hunter cares about an elk, you treat it like worthless prey to be harvested for Total War' That's how mellow-dramatic you get about my beliefs and me as a person...but ok sure I guess I'm the sneaky evil one who wants to undermine the community and...make the game better...
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0 · Disagree AgreeWhere is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him? For a Middenland DLC with Boris and the Ar-Ulric!
Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD!
Queek could smell their hatred, ratcheted to a degree that even he could not evoke in their simple hearts. He stepped over the old orange-fur’s body, eager to see for himself what it was they saw. But he heard it first.
'Waaaaaaaggh! Gorfang!'
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0 · Disagree AgreeI think his alot like Wulfrik has revenge on his mind and defeats what needs to be defeated to get stronger and see it done
I'd say personally his not a Warrior of Chaos LL as he isn't battling for them just for himself and follows his own path
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0 · Disagree AgreeBut, they are NOT copying 1:1..... Let me showcase you, in an incomplete list of why it isn't 1:1.
Giles le Breton is a character inspired by King Arthur. But King Arthur enver found the Holy Grail, that was Sir Galahad (which is just ONE of the multiple examples of GW not copying 1:1). The Witch King being named Malekith and being ruler of the Dark Elves is literally the only simily between 'Malekith the Accursed' and 'Malekith the Witch King'. Asrai in english myth are WATER nymphs not Wood Elves, so that is not evena copy of any thing else than the word. Araby, in the context of Sinbad the Sailor, is a far cry from the Arabia that Sinbad visits. It is more akin to a dark and twisted Arabia, as if demonised by Europeans. And last I checked the Black Death was not perpetrated by mutant Ratmen, nor called down upon us by some esoteric corpulent God from a mirror dimension....
The Norscans are just a further reinterpreted, caricature of Vikings as seen by Dark Ages Europeans. Simple as that. After you take the concept of reinterpreted Viking caricatures, you just add the flavour of Chaos, and you have what Norscans are.
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0 · Disagree AgreeI would've been fine not having to deal with this but you're an aggressive revisionist and your comments made me realize that, yes, you're right, there is a toxic person on these forums that needs to be fought but you're wrong on who that is. Everyone else, I'm willing to let it slide, but when you're so self absorbed that you lack any self awareness and will willingly oppose anyone who disagrees then yes, you demand to be fought if necessary. You can say all you want how much you extended the olive branch, anyone else giving it would have a warmer welcome from me but in your case I know what your intent really is. And even after all this time you haven't changed.
So, it's simple.
1. You can accept that we will never meet eye to eye and that's that. I would not even oppose you that much if that was simply the case. For instance there's ArneSo who really goes along with a lot of things, not much point opposing him as he's quite friendly. You have SerPus who just hard lines the armybooks but again, not much point to it as people are set in their ways. You however, lack self awareness to see that those here aren't evil by nature and as much as you try to say you don't see them as bad you still are unapologetically agressive towards them for no real reason. I presented you this option a long time ago and you didn't care. And you still don't. Because that's not enough for you.
2. You can continue down this self chosen road while morally grandstanding how I hound you whenever you oppose the lore and I will continue to point out your incorrectness at every turn, justified in my actions by the very words you spoke. I have no problems showing your own incorrectness and how you rewrite it to fit your needs. I'm not hounding you, I'm still debating it as always.
3. Or, most unlikely option, you start telling the actual lore and I won't have a reason to oppose you. But I'm not accepting this fake offering which is, in reality, you wanting a pass to claim whatever you want about lore. I'm just not that naive to fall for this deception.
But that's enough of that. I will no more speak about all of this. You want to actually not end up debatting like this with everyone? Start quoting actual lore rather than rewriting it to fit your desires.
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0 · Disagree AgreeThese changes are so miniscule that you could rhetoricly speaking say it is 1:1 the source material. Keyword rhetoricly speaking. But nuance is lost in the internet. Everything must be 100 percent literal and be fought to the bitter end.
Anyway this thread has goneboff topic enough.
Can anyone please stop and concentrate on the topic?
https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/288418/filling-the-white-spots-7-made-up-factions-to-fill-out-the-wfb-setting
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0 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeBut that is still off topic.
https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/288418/filling-the-white-spots-7-made-up-factions-to-fill-out-the-wfb-setting
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1 · Disagree AgreeWait...that's my true colours? I never backed down from that and I'd still say that now because its the truth.
I want us to either agree to disagree or I want you to mellow out like Arthas did. Loremaster of Sotek himself is a great example of a lore nerd who is reasonable, he knows GW aren't perfect and understand that some things are gonna be included that he doesn't like but hes more reasonable about it and understands his limits (more importantly he's also smart enough to understand the ulterior motives of GW, understand the inspiration behind things and to poke fun at the series being uninspired here or stupid there).
I've encountered people like you in communities from other franchises as well and I know people and have heard from people who have experienced it themselves in other franchises from Sonic, to Pokemon, Warhammer, Skyrim, everything.
People like you who think just because you've read something you understand it and who think your truth is THE truth, who have a feeling of personal ownership over the lore and who have devised a personal head-cannon of what is and isn't loreful within it, so when it comes to adapt it to another medium or into the sequel you rage when half the lore that you ignored, failed to understand or simply don't like gets adapted along with all your head cannon.
I could go on. Really though, I don't need to, I don't always get in your way and I don't always grandstand, in fact, I've gotten more used to leaving you be and putting down a discussion when I've said my peace and to continue would be to simply repeat my points.
Why are you bringing other people into this? I mostly agree with ArneSo, very rarely do we but heads if at all. SerPus is someone I've barely talked to at all and when I have, we disagree for the exact reason you stated. There is a reason to challenge someone who is 'set in their ways' if those ways are wrong and harm the community. the belief that the Army books are all that matters makes the community worse at predicting stuff, more hostile to CA and limits what we can suggest and by extension what they can provide.
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0 · Disagree AgreeExample of correct hyperbole: "The endings of Mass Effect 3 were so similar I can't even tell them apart". in this example you express that the endings were similar (which they were) and you overexagerate your own experience of them as such. People know you are exagerating and trying to make a point.
Example of incorrect hyperbole: "The endings of Mass Effect 3 were literally the same". In this case you make a false statement that is demonstrably wrong. Without knowledge of your physical gestures and tone of voice, people have no way of knowing whether you were trying to be coy, make a point or actually think they are the same.
In the case of this thread, SeanJeanquoi are trying to first translate the Norscan culture 1:1 to our world Norse culture. Then he tries to go go back and re-translate the aprts that fit from norse culture into the Norscan in a retroactive fit. He is trying to use his own twisted circular logic to fit his own arguements while trying to dismiss others' attempt at showing him where he is wrong.
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0 · Disagree AgreeThere were memes, protests, even cupcakes on how similar they were.
But again nuance or rhetorical simplifications appears to be lost on you.
you cannot assume that everyone on the internet is strictly using your terms of formulation. Even if you have just a text, you can often see how s/he meant this sentence, when you think a short while about their position.
Anyway, please everyone stop with this derailment. I am out
https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/288418/filling-the-white-spots-7-made-up-factions-to-fill-out-the-wfb-setting
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0 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeFrom the Forum T&C: (https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/172193/forum-terms-and-conditions#latest)
Be respectful to everyone on the forums. Flaming, insulting or abusing anyone will not be tolerated.
Please use the appropriate language for the section of the forums you are using.
1) Respect:]
1.1 Please do not disrespect any other forum users, including volunteer moderators or CA staff
1.2a Please do not practice negative behaviour: personal attacks/bashing/baiting/spamming, etc.
1.2b Please do not use taunting/trolling (behaviour with the deliberate goal of being controversial or offensive)
1.5 Avoid using words or phrases with all capital letters (it is considered shouting)
2) False Information and illegal content:
2.1 You will not use this forum to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, is material of a sexual matter, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise unlawful.
If the remarks continue in the discussion posts then warnings/infractions with be given to the offenders, and the thread closed.
dge1
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0 · Disagree Agree- Report
1 · Disagree AgreeI'd like to say that when I said "THE" I was not intending it as a shout.
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0 · Disagree AgreeOne or more of dge1 signature quotes are perfect for this case.
And on topic, I would rather have Scylla with Chaos. Konrad would be nice though.
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0 · Disagree AgreeNorsca needs to lose that aspect badly, it's so lore inaccurate that it hurts.
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0 · Disagree AgreeIt'd also be much worse if they would add Egyl Styrbjorn or any other actually God devoted character and allow them to choose a god.
Would it have been nice if they'd have added a "Undivided" option? Yeah. But I see why they didn't... might be an idea for modders though, or an addition somewhere down the line.
Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him? For a Middenland DLC with Boris and the Ar-Ulric!
Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD!
Queek could smell their hatred, ratcheted to a degree that even he could not evoke in their simple hearts. He stepped over the old orange-fur’s body, eager to see for himself what it was they saw. But he heard it first.
'Waaaaaaaggh! Gorfang!'
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0 · Disagree AgreeThat's kinda making a small matter out of that a mixture of; horrible hygiene understanding, the soap not being a common household item yet, toilet paper not being used, hands not washed, food stored wrong, simply mankind not having grasped the concept of hygiene and contamination chains yet. Rats still carry a lot of yum-yum with them, as many animals. We just don't live and die in our own filth anymore allowing it to spread.
Don't blame the rats kids - remember to wipe
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0 · Disagree AgreeAnd in regards of Warhammer: Giant Rats that deliberately conconted terrible diseases.
Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him? For a Middenland DLC with Boris and the Ar-Ulric!
Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD!
Queek could smell their hatred, ratcheted to a degree that even he could not evoke in their simple hearts. He stepped over the old orange-fur’s body, eager to see for himself what it was they saw. But he heard it first.
'Waaaaaaaggh! Gorfang!'
- Report
0 · Disagree Agree