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The Plagueclaw Should Really Be In the Pestilens Building Chain

TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior MemberRegistered Users Posts: 34,001
Skryre is frontloaded with pretty much all the strongest units of the Skaven roster right now, you have very little reason to build anything else. That CA also gave the Plagueclaw, the better of the two artillery pieces Skaven have access to, to Skryre is complete overkill and unnecessary. I created a simple mod that moves the Plagueclaw to the second tier of the Pox Cauldron chain and the Warp Lightning Cannon down to the first tier of the Construction Cavern.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2177591861

Please, CA, consider incorporating this change into the main game as well as making Skryre not the no-brainer choice for all Skaven campaigns!
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Comments

  • LordMoloch#7288LordMoloch#7288 Registered Users Posts: 124
    +1.

    I tried modding it in as a part of an SFO submod to sort out the absolute mess they made of Skaven weapons team recruitment, but moving the Plagueclaws was the only part that took (thanks to my being a complete hack of a modder and the SFO team for some reason making the weapons teams require two buildings). Couldn't be bothered to put any more work into it and just stuck with vanilla.
  • GreenColoured#2445GreenColoured#2445 Registered Users Posts: 6,936
    So I agree with your overall point. It's much more a Pestilens than Skryre unit. But I can't help but nitpick at...

    That CA also gave the Plagueclaw, the better of the two artillery pieces Skaven have access to


    First, as of S&B, they now have 3, one's a weapons team artillery, but still very much an artillery.


    Second, and most importantly, Plagueclaws are most certainly NOT the better of the two, moreso a side-grade really. Their relationship with Warplightning Cannons is the same as that of Mortars/Cannons. Catapults are better suited for large blobs of slower infantries, they have a larger AoE, and it's arc-ing fire makes it way harder to land hits on lower entity units.


    Cannons are better against lower entity units such as monsters, flying units, etc. But not nearly as efficient vs. infantry, nor do they have nearly as big a splash.



    So...sidegrades.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 14,927
    Why not both?
    Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
  • angry_rat_loverangry_rat_lover Registered Users Posts: 1,458
    Yeah yeah
    Soon
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    edited July 2020
    @GreenColoured

    I consider the Plagueclaw superior to the WLC simply because its performance is less dependent on terrain and it makes a great wall cleaner in sieges while also applying a double LD debuff on units (both the "attacked by artillery" and "contaminated" one). The WLC also often has very annoying LOS issues and I find it generally misses SEMs too much.
  • ThomassiniThomassini Registered Users Posts: 1,151
    Agreed.

    Also please make Clan Pestilens less of a black sheep among the great clans. I know it has lost the civil war, but that is no reason to punish them with the least distinction among the big 4.

    It has neither the generic lord that all the other implemented great clans have (so no way to roleplay outside Skrolk’s army), one hero (Eshin having two already), it’s catapult is hijacked as per @Ephraim_Dalton, and it doesn’t have any unique clan mechanic (plague being available to everyone). Skrolk is an amazing LL but Clan Pestilens feels too generic compared to both Eshin and Skryre.

    And I am sure Moulder is going to come with a big, big blast and a lot of toys to make Pestilens even more of an outsider...
  • Artjuh90#8868Artjuh90#8868 Registered Users Posts: 1,697

    Agreed.

    Also please make Clan Pestilens less of a black sheep among the great clans. I know it has lost the civil war, but that is no reason to punish them with the least distinction among the big 4.

    It has neither the generic lord that all the other implemented great clans have (so no way to roleplay outside Skrolk’s army), one hero (Eshin having two already), it’s catapult is hijacked as per @Ephraim_Dalton, and it doesn’t have any unique clan mechanic (plague being available to everyone). Skrolk is an amazing LL but Clan Pestilens feels too generic compared to both Eshin and Skryre.

    And I am sure Moulder is going to come with a big, big blast and a lot of toys to make Pestilens even more of an outsider...

    funny you call the big 4 when there are 4 skaven clans in the game...
    poor tretch
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 1,120
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  • Artjuh90#8868Artjuh90#8868 Registered Users Posts: 1,697
    i disagree, the artillery piece is in the artillery building. it's not like the pestilens chain is bad at all. and kinda makes you chose which route to go magic or artillery.
  • fan3982173917524862fan3982173917524862 Registered Users Posts: 1,584
    Also reduce the Pestilens cove building chain to tier2 to tier 4. Plague monk censer bearers have no right being a tier 5 unit in campaign. The whole building chain only exists for it's passive benefits and hero capacity increases(though you can get the followers that give capacity to heroes to make the building redundant). Plague monks as a tier 2 unit would make them see more use as well, if the catapult is also moved to the Pestilens building chain.
  • Captain_Rex#1635Captain_Rex#1635 Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 37,670
    Artjuh90 said:

    i disagree, the artillery piece is in the artillery building. it's not like the pestilens chain is bad at all. and kinda makes you chose which route to go magic or artillery.

    But it’s not an artillery building, it’s the Clan Skryre building.

    What does the plague catapult has to do with Clan Skryre? Doesn’t make sense at all and it should definitely be moved to the Pestilence building.
    Summon the Elector Counts!
  • Jman5#8318Jman5#8318 Registered Users Posts: 2,115
    This needs to happen. It would make Clan Pestilans' early game a lot more fair against the monster that is Gor-Rok. The building chain itself has the fewest number of units/heroes than any other building chain except for the Monster one. And I think we all expect the Monster Building chain to fill out down the line.
  • Mogwai_Man#4978Mogwai_Man#4978 Registered Users Posts: 6,059
    edited July 2020
    Artjuh90 said:

    i disagree, the artillery piece is in the artillery building. it's not like the pestilens chain is bad at all. and kinda makes you chose which route to go magic or artillery.

    it's a Clan Pestilen's asset. It belongs in that building chain.
  • GreenColoured#2445GreenColoured#2445 Registered Users Posts: 6,936

    @GreenColoured

    I consider the Plagueclaw superior to the WLC simply because its performance is less dependent on terrain and it makes a great wall cleaner in sieges while also applying a double LD debuff on units (both the "attacked by artillery" and "contaminated" one). The WLC also often has very annoying LOS issues and I find it generally misses SEMs too much.

    Yeah different artillery for different jobs, but again the cannons are better at larger targets. For me they snipe Louen and Karl on their Griffin's very efficiently. Something you can't do with arc artilleries.


    LOS issue is something universal to cannon units. It's a trade off for better damage, accuracy, and effectivelness against faster targets like Cavs
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001

    @GreenColoured

    I consider the Plagueclaw superior to the WLC simply because its performance is less dependent on terrain and it makes a great wall cleaner in sieges while also applying a double LD debuff on units (both the "attacked by artillery" and "contaminated" one). The WLC also often has very annoying LOS issues and I find it generally misses SEMs too much.

    Yeah different artillery for different jobs, but again the cannons are better at larger targets. For me they snipe Louen and Karl on their Griffin's very efficiently. Something you can't do with arc artilleries.


    LOS issue is something universal to cannon units. It's a trade off for better damage, accuracy, and effectivelness against faster targets like Cavs
    I use Jezzails for this purpose. They have a better chance to hit since they lead their targets.
  • Jman5#8318Jman5#8318 Registered Users Posts: 2,115
    Artjuh90 said:

    i disagree, the artillery piece is in the artillery building. it's not like the pestilens chain is bad at all. and kinda makes you chose which route to go magic or artillery.

    No you're not because Warlock Engineer is in the Engineer Chain as well. So you're getting both plague claw catapult, warp lightning cannon, Doomflayers, Doomwheel, and the arguably better Skaven Caster.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    edited July 2020
    Let's not forget that the Warlock Engineer himself is also absolutely busted.

    -gives you the means to plant undercities
    -has one of the best spells in the game, Warp Lightning
    -can be made a semi-competent frontline fighter with upgrades
    -makes your armies faster

    and last but not least

    -BUFFS ALL RANGED TROOPS MASSIVELY! With increased damage, range and ammunition. Y'know, the troops that are already the strongest specimen of the Skaven roster

    What does the Plague Priest give you in return? Nothing that beats the above, that's what.
  • GreenColoured#2445GreenColoured#2445 Registered Users Posts: 6,936

    @GreenColoured

    I consider the Plagueclaw superior to the WLC simply because its performance is less dependent on terrain and it makes a great wall cleaner in sieges while also applying a double LD debuff on units (both the "attacked by artillery" and "contaminated" one). The WLC also often has very annoying LOS issues and I find it generally misses SEMs too much.

    Yeah different artillery for different jobs, but again the cannons are better at larger targets. For me they snipe Louen and Karl on their Griffin's very efficiently. Something you can't do with arc artilleries.


    LOS issue is something universal to cannon units. It's a trade off for better damage, accuracy, and effectivelness against faster targets like Cavs
    I use Jezzails for this purpose. They have a better chance to hit since they lead their targets.
    Jezzails are amazing units, but again, different units. This time you are comparing a skirmish team to an artillery piece.


    Lesser range, way lower to the ground making LoS an even bigger problem.


    And even with shieldbreaker, they're still blocked by shields at the end of the day.


    And they lack a Cannon's aoe and punchthrough.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    edited July 2020
    If you count PWM as artillery despite having 25 less range than the Jezzails, the latter are fair game.

    And I find their hitrate, increased movement speed and greater agility to be worth the lower range. WLC are simply not good units, none of the traditional direct fire artillery pieces in this game are thanks to CA making monsters so nimble and giving them tiny hitboxes.
  • GloatingSwine#8098GloatingSwine#8098 Registered Users Posts: 2,574

    Let's not forget that the Warlock Engineer himself is also absolutely busted.

    -gives you the means to plant undercities
    -has one of the best spells in the game, Warp Lightning
    -can be made a semi-competent frontline fighter with upgrades
    -makes your armies faster

    and last but not least

    -BUFFS ALL RANGED TROOPS MASSIVELY! With increased damage, range and ammunition. Y'know, the troops that are already the strongest specimen of the Skaven roster

    What does the Plague Priest give you in return? Nothing that beats the above, that's what.

    Endless waves of summoned clan rats to bog down the enemy so you have the maximum time to shoot them.

    They are the best front line a Skaven army can have because they’re even more expendable than normal clan rats.

    Skaven armies should have 4 plague priests and 2 warlock engineers. The rest of the units should be weapon teams and artillery.
  • GreenColoured#2445GreenColoured#2445 Registered Users Posts: 6,936

    If you count PWM as artillery despite having 25 less range than the Jezzails, the latter are fair game.

    And I find their hitrate, increased movement speed and greater agility to be worth the lower range. WLC are simply not good units, none of the traditional direct fire artillery pieces in this game are thanks to CA making monsters so nimble and giving them tiny hitboxes.

    I consider the mortars artillery because of their massive ranged splash.



    We'll have to agree to disagree, simply put I'm not running into the problems you are having with warp lightning cannons so if you say they function like so and they worked like so for me, there's not much else I can say to convince otherwise.


    I'll just say you still see the cannons quite often in competitive play
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    Summoned clanrats and even Plague Monks lose any worth by midgame thanks to doomstacking. All the buffstacking on weapon teams and artillery does not.

    Why even summon anything when your gunlines take the enemy apart before he even gets anywhere near you?
  • fan3982173917524862fan3982173917524862 Registered Users Posts: 1,584


    What does the Plague Priest give you in return? Nothing that beats the above, that's what.

    A better lore of magic that can be used to swarm the enemy and slow it's advance, better damaging aoe spells like plague and breath, poison buffs.
    Having 1-2 plague priests spamming actual useful spells and letting ranged do their work is better than just having a caster who will only use 1 spell with very limited aoe and doesn't have a mount or conduit, if we're talking about the hero version.

    If you prefer to just spam weapon teams and stack engineer buffs, that's your own problem. Skaven are perfectly playable without doing that and playing smart with the amount of tools you're given, be it battle abilities and campaign effects or mechanics.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001


    What does the Plague Priest give you in return? Nothing that beats the above, that's what.

    A better lore of magic that can be used to swarm the enemy and slow it's advance, better damaging aoe spells like plague and breath, poison buffs.
    Having 1-2 plague priests spamming actual useful spells and letting ranged do their work is better than just having a caster who will only use 1 spell with very limited aoe and doesn't have a mount or conduit, if we're talking about the hero version.

    If you prefer to just spam weapon teams and stack engineer buffs, that's your own problem. Skaven are perfectly playable without doing that and playing smart with the amount of tools you're given, be it battle abilities and campaign effects or mechanics.
    In campaign, no. You are wasting time if you for Plague Priests in campaign. You concentrate on creating Warlock Engineers to spread undercities, steal research for more buffstacking and speeding up your armies while buffing also all your best damage dealers. What do I need Plague Priest summons when I can melt the enemy army without issuing any orders after deployment? And you got mapwide MfB summons anyway in case you need them. Lore of Plague is worse than Lore of Ruin, especially after Skitterleap was replaced with Flensing Ruin which is a better AoE damage spell than Plague, as it has more range, plus additional debuff and the summon spells become worthless by midgame, as I already said, thanks to doomstacks being everywhere that squish your summons in seconds anyway.

    In MP it's different, since you have no MfB there and can't buffstack your ranged troops, Plague Priests become more valuable, especially with a Plague Censer. But that's MP.
  • GloatingSwine#8098GloatingSwine#8098 Registered Users Posts: 2,574


    In campaign, no. You are wasting time if you for Plague Priests in campaign.

    No, you are wasting time if you recruit any infantry other than Plague Priests. Plague Priests are literally the best line holders in the entire game because every one can spawn 8 units per battle which cost no upkeep and need no replenishment between battles.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    edited July 2020


    In campaign, no. You are wasting time if you for Plague Priests in campaign.

    No, you are wasting time if you recruit any infantry other than Plague Priests. Plague Priests are literally the best line holders in the entire game because every one can spawn 8 units per battle which cost no upkeep and need no replenishment between battles.
    And if you go for full blown buffstacked gunlines, you don't ever need replenishment because you melt enemy armies in seconds without them being able to actually lay a hand on you. Half that time if play as Ikit and stack even more buffs on top.

    Plague Priest summons still require you to let the enemy get near, which is an unnecessary risk.
  • MonochromaticSpider#5650MonochromaticSpider#5650 Registered Users Posts: 2,134
    Regarding heroes, the warlock engineer has some good army buff effects, but that's mostly it. He has warp lightning, but he does not have a spell cost reduction for it (so it costs 6/11) and warp lightning got nerfed a while back with a smaller radius. Blowing all your WOM on warp lightning is just not very effective. And as a melee fighter, the engineers suck terribly. Yes, you can sort of buff them a little bit but they're stuck with awful MD, fairly low MA, and low damage. They're basically a ranged buff that can be a last resort blocker, if it is absolutely necessary.

    The plague priest, meanwhile, has two amazing spells in Vermintide (4) and Plague (8 / 12), and the Plague effect, plague rash, has a map-wide effect on vigour, and their skill tree has combat buffs, and they have a high armour mount with AOE damage. They don't do much in terms of army buffs, but plague is very strong against blobs and having trow-away fodder without needing corruption or food is very useful.

    So what it boils down to, is whether you prefer buffs for already incredibly strong ranged units or some relatively tanky heroes that can deal damage. I don't think there's a right or wrong answer, but I'd happily have 3-4 plague priests in an army and I see zero reason why you'd ever take more than one warlock engineer.

    Oh, I almost forgot, undercities. You need to warlock engineers to establish them, if you want to spend the time and money on that. In my view it isn't really a worthwhile investment but to each their own.

    And regarding the buildings...

    The Skryre building at tier 3 gives you catapults and makes it possible to recruit warlock engineers. At tier 4 you get doomflayers and warp cannons. At tier 5 you get +1 warlock engineer, doomwheels.

    The Pestilens building at tier 3 gives you +1 PO, and enables recruitment of plague priests and plague monks. At tier 4 it gives +1 plague priest and +2 PO. At tier 5 it enables recruitment of censer bearers, and gives +4 PO.

    I don't know about everybody else, but for me the catapults are a key unit, due to their flexibility, whereas warp cannons tend to be too picky about their firing arcs. Further, hamster wheels big and small are okay for slowing down enemies, but they're not vital. And warlock engineers never tend to pull their weight in a battle. On the Pestilens side, plague monks of all kinds just aren't my thing, but plague priests are actually very good, relative to what you need. And more PO is always nice.

    So for me, the Pestilens building is actually already superior. I need the catapults and therefore I have to build the Skryre building at tier 3, but after that it really doesn't do anything for me. Typically, if I don't have the building slots, I'll tear it down and build the Pestilens building instead. Because tier 4 is pretty close by and plague priests are just plain and simply more useful to me.
  • MonochromaticSpider#5650MonochromaticSpider#5650 Registered Users Posts: 2,134


    In campaign, no. You are wasting time if you for Plague Priests in campaign.

    No, you are wasting time if you recruit any infantry other than Plague Priests. Plague Priests are literally the best line holders in the entire game because every one can spawn 8 units per battle which cost no upkeep and need no replenishment between battles.
    You're not wrong. The spawns do cost a bit of WOM, though.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    edited July 2020
    Plague is worse than Flensing Ruin. Summons become irrelevant by midgame, while ranged buffs stay relevant for the entire campaign. Warp Lightning retains its usefulness throughout. The only really bad spell in Lore of Ruin is Scorch since it does so little damage, I guess it's bugged in some way.

    PO is irrelevant because you get increasing PO from the main building chain anyway and the tons of food you make ever since CA dumbed down that mechanic, so that's no reason to bother with the Pestilens chain.

    Plague Monks and Censer Bearers are units you don't ever need to bother with. Glass cannon damage dealer infantry is in general terrible in this game. Better have more guns and if you need something to hold the line, Sword+Board Stormvermin are the better choice since they stick around longer and don't lose TWO buffs when getting damaged.

    Undercities are an amazing way to make tons of food and money easily. Spreading them all over the world turns Skaven campaigns into even more of a cakewalk than they already are.

    The Plague Priest gives you nothing of importance in the current setup of the game.

    Funny thing is, I play with mods that actually DO make the Pestilens chain not wholly worthless by slowing the pace of the game down, so I'd agree with people here if CA hadn't completely bolloxed the campaign up.
  • MonochromaticSpider#5650MonochromaticSpider#5650 Registered Users Posts: 2,134
    Plague is 8 WOM, after the discount. For that 8 WOM, it would appear that you get 2 AP damage per half second for 20 seconds in a decent little area. If you're putting it on a blob or just a reasonably dense unit, you're getting your money's worth. Flensing Ruin is a wind spell that costs a lot more and does 48 AP damage (another another 48 regular if overcast) to the target area. Stats courtesy of KamachoThunderbus' spell stat document.

    As for Warp Lightning, it looks good on paper, except it really isn't hitting that much anymore. If you're using it without a discount, you're not getting enough damage for your WOM. Well, maybe it works better on small unit scaling. I suspect it might. On huge, there's just not enough models being hit.

    Summons are relevant always. Against a lot of AI armies you really don't need them, but now and again you'll run into being outnumbered, some of the maps are just bad, and occasionally there are enough fast movers that you just can't wipe them all out in time. Summons handle these issues. You can try to do it with other units, of course, and both doomwheels and abominations can do that speedbump very well, but summons are just plain and simply more flexible.

    Plague monks are indeed rubbish. So are stormvermin. You're literally better off using skavenslaves, at least they're extremely cheap, you're less inclined to mind when they get wiped out, and they're easier to replenish.

    Undercities, yes, they are potentially nice. But it takes time and it takes money, and while I don't mind hitting a few key targets with undercities, I simply don't see the reward in expanding them everywhere. Maybe if you slow the game down tremendously, it wouldn't feel weird to just spend turn after turn after turn expanding undercities, but the way the game works currently, I'd much rather have another army and just take whatever territory, than play the long game with undercities.

    Plague priests not worth it? Simply not true. They are awesome. Decent in combat, nice enough mounts, good spells. They're certainly a vastly better guard unit for your ranged forces than stormvermin, abominations, doomwheels, or warlock engineers.

    Finally, what does the Skryre building at tier 4 give you?
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