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The Undead Trifecta of annoyance

Cuchulainn88Cuchulainn88 Registered Users Posts: 31
The Undead factions have three common traits that when combined make them (arguably) the strongest factions in the game and the most forgiving tactically.

1. Crumbling- you know it, you hate it. Every undead unit being unbreakable and instead taking minor damage over time in sticky situations is very powerful.
2. Army wide fear/terror. Undead armies don't break and they debuff other factions leadership as standard. Losing control of your units is always a pain and having it happen in combats you were winning is doubly frustrating. There is no intelligent application you're just getting debuffed and ground down by default.
3. Undead healing. Their greatest asset, restoring models is crazy good and with few exceptions, exclusive to the undead.

So what makes this thread more than just a rant against the undead factions? Well potential changes of course. Some of them are less likely than others but here goes.

1. Crumbling, its annoying but its thematic and I don't hate it I just don't think it should be army wide in each faction. VC as example, zombies, skeletons, black knights all make sense for crumbling, they are animated by magic. Vargeists, Vargulfs, Black Knights, ghouls; they exist without a Vampire or necromancers will they should be routable because they want to unlive another day.
2. Fear. I didn't understand it on TT and I still think it doesnt make sense now. If you live in the Warhammer World, zombies and skeletons are a known threat. You know what is uncommonly frightening for your rank and file state trooper? A 6 and a half foot tall viking encased in armor forged in hell who choked out a demon with his bare hands until it agreed to serve turn itself into an axe for him to use in battle. That is scary. A 70lb skelton with a rusty knife and the coordination of a toddler is less scary than a regular dude with a frying pan. Not every should get fear.
3. Undead healing... can't really do anything about it. It's thematic and an asset but maybe it should apply in the same way as my crumbling suggestion. Bringing back a blood knight doesn't make sense but a skelton or even a ghoul depending on how you think about them makes sense.

I'm looking forward to being scolded with whataboutisms and foppish scoffs.
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Comments

  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 25,115
    edited July 31
    VCounts pay for all that with an on average terrible statline and the absence of ranged units, it's VCoast that are not really balanced around it since they have huge skirmisher blocks which can even be summoned. Huge, shooty units that never rout = massive advantage. VCoast should lose all access to LoV at the very least.

  • Cuchulainn88Cuchulainn88 Registered Users Posts: 31

    VCounts pay for all that with an on average terrible statline and the absence of ranged units, it's VCoast that are not really balanced around it since they have huge skirmisher blocks which can even be summoned. Huge, shooty units that never rout = massive advantage. VCoast should lose all access to LoV at the very least.

    I agree on VCoast, I would be infavor of improving relevant statlines for Counts if they made any if the suggest changes for thematic reasons. I don't consider Counts a problem faction, just annoying in some respects.
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 4,636
    counts are good faction , coast is just broken
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • outrage4outrage4 Registered Users Posts: 95
    I would say that TK and Coast are broken because their ranged tools benefit greatly from unbreakable cheap chaff. VC don't really seem OP mostly because they have no misiles.

    Crumbling is a joke compared to routing mostly beacause how little damage over time it does to undead units. I would suggest increasing LD on all undead units while also increasing crumbling damage so does any noticeable damage.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 6,552

    VCounts pay for all that with an on average terrible statline

    this has been proven time and time again to be false please stop spreading lies.

    As for the OP,

    1) the way crumbling worked in TT is that you crumbled harder if you lost the combat by a lot. Getting charged by Reiksguard had more impact on crumbling than fighting Empire Swordsmen.

    In our game, crumbling mostly penalizes units with average-to-low HP, such as Black Coach, Cairn Wraiths, while it can be argued to have no impact on units like Zombies, Skeletons and so on. From memory, the figure of crumbling is 11 HP/s though I could be wrong.

    2) this honestly doesn't have as big of an impact as you try to say and I think it's fine and working as intended. The reason why Undead cause Fear is not because a Skeleton is scary but because the idea of be turned into one after your death and the idea that Undead can walk again to begin with due to incantations is scary for mortals.

    3) the way it worked in Tabletop was that on units like Zombies you'd heal D6+2 Wounds, on units of infantry otherwise D6 and on cavalry and Vampiric units you would always heal only 1 Wound. This made units like Blood Knights very easy to balance in TT because Cannonballs had the same effect on them as they would e.g. on Reiksguard.

    In this game, healing Zombies and healing Blood Knights is equally powerful and a design flaw.
  • WitchbladeWitchblade Registered Users Posts: 638
    VC absolutely do not need nerfs. They're not a first pick faction and perform poorly in faction wars due to multiple unfavorable match-ups.

    TK are a balanced tier 1 faction based on their performance in tourneys.

    Coast are the only problematic one in my view. It's quite ludicrous how well you can do with Coast with minimal experience or micro just because you can spam a 20 stack of unbreakable chaff and heinous firepower. There have been several threads about how to nerf Coast already, with particular emphasis on bombers, the summon with guns and Luthor.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 9,087
    Crumbling does need a nerf but VC seem rather balanced compared to the other 2, there needs to be a fine line to nerd crumbling while keepying VC power level the same. I guess that could be achived simply by adjusting other factions tool vs VC a bit such as slight tempest nerfs, bob adjustments And something about LZM blob As those 3 things affect VC much more than the other 2 undead and this will allow for crumbling to actually be a trade of for not breaking because rite now its silly strong.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,250
    outrage4 said:

    I would say that TK and Coast are broken because their ranged tools benefit greatly from unbreakable cheap chaff. VC don't really seem OP mostly because they have no misiles.

    Crumbling is a joke compared to routing mostly beacause how little damage over time it does to undead units. I would suggest increasing LD on all undead units while also increasing crumbling damage so does any noticeable damage.

    Have you seen what TK pays for its archers stats? Yes being unbreakable is handy but it ain’t cheap.
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 1,963
    edited August 1
    TK range comes more from their SEM. But definitely not broken.
    TK is fine, powerful and many good units but not broken, perhaps their spearmen gets +25gold nerf since the skelly spearmen of VC comparison shows they need a bit of nerf.

    Also add on taht their AL stalker and necro knights have got a lot of buffs so their spears could be somewhat enrf
  • innerpinnerp Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 712
    Green0 said:

    VCounts pay for all that with an on average terrible statline

    this has been proven time and time again to be false please stop spreading lies.

    As for the OP,

    1) the way crumbling worked in TT is that you crumbled harder if you lost the combat by a lot. Getting charged by Reiksguard had more impact on crumbling than fighting Empire Swordsmen.

    In our game, crumbling mostly penalizes units with average-to-low HP, such as Black Coach, Cairn Wraiths, while it can be argued to have no impact on units like Zombies, Skeletons and so on. From memory, the figure of crumbling is 11 HP/s though I could be wrong.

    2) this honestly doesn't have as big of an impact as you try to say and I think it's fine and working as intended. The reason why Undead cause Fear is not because a Skeleton is scary but because the idea of be turned into one after your death and the idea that Undead can walk again to begin with due to incantations is scary for mortals.

    3) the way it worked in Tabletop was that on units like Zombies you'd heal D6+2 Wounds, on units of infantry otherwise D6 and on cavalry and Vampiric units you would always heal only 1 Wound. This made units like Blood Knights very easy to balance in TT because Cannonballs had the same effect on them as they would e.g. on Reiksguard.

    In this game, healing Zombies and healing Blood Knights is equally powerful and a design flaw.
    people flag posts for this now? lol

  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 9,087
    eumaies said:

    outrage4 said:

    I would say that TK and Coast are broken because their ranged tools benefit greatly from unbreakable cheap chaff. VC don't really seem OP mostly because they have no misiles.

    Crumbling is a joke compared to routing mostly beacause how little damage over time it does to undead units. I would suggest increasing LD on all undead units while also increasing crumbling damage so does any noticeable damage.

    Have you seen what TK pays for its archers stats? Yes being unbreakable is handy but it ain’t cheap.
    I agree TK pay for it on their archers, but VP hardly on their ranged, VP chaff ranged way outclasses TK archers.
  • WitchbladeWitchblade Registered Users Posts: 638
    I haven't seen any good argument skeleton spears are OP. The VC ones are overpriced, if anything. Regular skeleton warriors from VC and especially TK are abysmal fighters, so many people go with the spears for TK because at least they'll hold a bit longer while killing next to nothing either way. Compare them in combat against state swordsmen, marauders or (shielded) men-at-arms, not to mention Dwarf Warriors who also border on unbreakable in a gunpowder faction. They absolutely pay for being undead.
  • Cadia101Cadia101 Registered Users Posts: 689
    innerp said:

    Green0 said:

    VCounts pay for all that with an on average terrible statline

    this has been proven time and time again to be false please stop spreading lies.

    As for the OP,

    1) the way crumbling worked in TT is that you crumbled harder if you lost the combat by a lot. Getting charged by Reiksguard had more impact on crumbling than fighting Empire Swordsmen.

    In our game, crumbling mostly penalizes units with average-to-low HP, such as Black Coach, Cairn Wraiths, while it can be argued to have no impact on units like Zombies, Skeletons and so on. From memory, the figure of crumbling is 11 HP/s though I could be wrong.

    2) this honestly doesn't have as big of an impact as you try to say and I think it's fine and working as intended. The reason why Undead cause Fear is not because a Skeleton is scary but because the idea of be turned into one after your death and the idea that Undead can walk again to begin with due to incantations is scary for mortals.

    3) the way it worked in Tabletop was that on units like Zombies you'd heal D6+2 Wounds, on units of infantry otherwise D6 and on cavalry and Vampiric units you would always heal only 1 Wound. This made units like Blood Knights very easy to balance in TT because Cannonballs had the same effect on them as they would e.g. on Reiksguard.

    In this game, healing Zombies and healing Blood Knights is equally powerful and a design flaw.
    people flag posts for this now? lol

    Must be the lie accusation. Can’t see any other reason.
  • mightygloinmightygloin Registered Users Posts: 2,709
    innerp said:

    Green0 said:

    VCounts pay for all that with an on average terrible statline

    this has been proven time and time again to be false please stop spreading lies.

    As for the OP,

    1) the way crumbling worked in TT is that you crumbled harder if you lost the combat by a lot. Getting charged by Reiksguard had more impact on crumbling than fighting Empire Swordsmen.

    In our game, crumbling mostly penalizes units with average-to-low HP, such as Black Coach, Cairn Wraiths, while it can be argued to have no impact on units like Zombies, Skeletons and so on. From memory, the figure of crumbling is 11 HP/s though I could be wrong.

    2) this honestly doesn't have as big of an impact as you try to say and I think it's fine and working as intended. The reason why Undead cause Fear is not because a Skeleton is scary but because the idea of be turned into one after your death and the idea that Undead can walk again to begin with due to incantations is scary for mortals.

    3) the way it worked in Tabletop was that on units like Zombies you'd heal D6+2 Wounds, on units of infantry otherwise D6 and on cavalry and Vampiric units you would always heal only 1 Wound. This made units like Blood Knights very easy to balance in TT because Cannonballs had the same effect on them as they would e.g. on Reiksguard.

    In this game, healing Zombies and healing Blood Knights is equally powerful and a design flaw.
    people flag posts for this now? lol

    What's there to lol about? Calling people liars are common and acceptable behaviour where you live?

    I didn't mark it but it's understandable. Not that marking achieves anything.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,367

    VCounts pay for all that with an on average terrible statline

    Yep, this is 100% correct.
    Green0 said:


    this has been proven time and time again to be false please stop spreading lies.

    False. Theres absolutely 0 evidence that remotely points towards that direction.
    Cadia101 said:

    Must be the lie accusation. Can’t see any other reason.

    Likely both, lying and accusation. Skeleton v clanrats v men at arms already utterly destroy the illusion undead r on par with living in terms of stats
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  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 6,552
    edited August 1
    yst said:



    False. Theres absolutely 0 evidence that remotely points towards that direction.

    Greatswords vs Grave Guards GW.

    Zombies vs Peasant Mob.

    Blood Knights vs Demis/Grail Knights

    Do some ystTests you will see Undead units are very competitive 1v1.

    The lack of ranged units I can get behind, the "low stats for the price" is patently a lie.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,367
    Green0 said:

    the "low stats for the price" is patently a lie.



    18 att 10 def
    vs
    5 att 6 def

    Omg same stats
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  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 4,880
    36 ld vs undead.
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 1,963
    Fear + better "mass"

    though they are a lot slower
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,367

    36 ld vs undead.

    Glad u finally learn balance.

    $1200 stone troll 40 ld.

    Fear + better "mass"

    though they are a lot slower

    Yep, as stated clearly, worthless stats
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  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 4,880
    yst said:

    36 ld vs undead.

    Glad u finally learn balance.

    $1200 stone troll 40 ld.

    Fear + better "mass"

    though they are a lot slower

    Yep, as stated clearly, worthless stats
    Yep stone trolls would be even more op if they were undead.
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 1,963
    Worthless.... those ma md on peasants are worthless. They are just there to bog down enemies. Bring undead and having higher mass means a lot more
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,250

    Worthless.... those ma md on peasants are worthless. They are just there to bog down enemies. Bring undead and having higher mass means a lot more

    clearly that's why no one bothers with peasants. +10 speed also totally useless for chaff.
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 1,963
    edited August 1
    eumaies said:

    Worthless.... those ma md on peasants are worthless. They are just there to bog down enemies. Bring undead and having higher mass means a lot more

    clearly that's why no one bothers with peasants. +10 speed also totally useless for chaff.
    I already mention the zombies is a lot slower as a big con........

    And i never said peasants arent taken
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,250

    eumaies said:

    Worthless.... those ma md on peasants are worthless. They are just there to bog down enemies. Bring undead and having higher mass means a lot more

    clearly that's why no one bothers with peasants. +10 speed also totally useless for chaff.
    I already mention the zombies is a lot slower as a big con........

    And i never said peasants arent taken
    Fair enough, sorry for the snark
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 1,963
    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    Worthless.... those ma md on peasants are worthless. They are just there to bog down enemies. Bring undead and having higher mass means a lot more

    clearly that's why no one bothers with peasants. +10 speed also totally useless for chaff.
    I already mention the zombies is a lot slower as a big con........

    And i never said peasants arent taken
    Fair enough, sorry for the snark
    np
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,367
    edited August 3

    Worthless.... those ma md on peasants are worthless. They are just there to bog down enemies. Bring undead and having higher mass means a lot more

    No one cares how u use them. Mentioned numerous times its undead stats being discussed here.

    Dont like this one, go to men at arms, clan rats vs skeletons

    Yep stone trolls would be even more op if they were undead.

    Comment removed.
    Post edited by dge1 on
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  • WitchbladeWitchblade Registered Users Posts: 638
    How to balance a whole lot of problems in the game in one swoop: limit maximum healing rate to 150% of base instead of 175%.

    A few units with regeneration may need buffs or cost cuts after this (like -25 gold for Louen and Volkmar), but overall, I think most situations where things actually heal cap are a little abusive or overtuned and the net change to the game will be positive even without any further adjustments.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 9,087

    How to balance a whole lot of problems in the game in one swoop: limit maximum healing rate to 150% of base instead of 175%.

    A few units with regeneration may need buffs or cost cuts after this (like -25 gold for Louen and Volkmar), but overall, I think most situations where things actually heal cap are a little abusive or overtuned and the net change to the game will be positive even without any further adjustments.

    And that makes some spells need WOM reduction as well as does nothing to VP and TK while nerfing VC thats rather balanced....
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,367
    Wrath of campaign carebears would be unimaginable
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