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There are warlords, and there are warlords.

kaihookaihoo Registered Users Posts: 311
edited August 1 in General Discussion
Given a choice, which factions would you most like to see included in each of the chapter packs

Should CA take into account relative "power levels" in the design and introduction of each new Lord pack? If so how would you folks rank the factions both major and minor in the different time periods of the Three Kingdoms?

Out of all the rest of the remaining unplayable warlords like Zhang Miao, Han Fu, Bao Xin, Yuan Yi, Kong Zhou, Wang Kuang, Qiao Mao, Liu Dai, Zhang Lu, Han Sui, Liu Yan, Shi XIe, Lu Kang, Wang Lang, Zhang Chao, Liu Yu, Zhang Xiu, Bian Zhang etc.. Still lots of characters / potential factions needing attention. Still lots of stories to tell.
Post edited by kaihoo on
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  • RewanRewan Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,754
    edited August 1
    Given a choice, which factions would you most like to see included in each of the chapter packs


    The factions that were relevant at the time of the chapter pack ?


    Should CA take into account relative "power levels" in the design


    They actually sorta do that with handicap values. Cao Cao - being the powerhouse he was - got some very nasty buffs for himself even at Normal difficulty. At this point the only thing holding him back is pretty much his paranoid warmongering and the fact his position is so precarious on the map both strategically and from an economical point of view. (and, well, more often than not the player himself).



    People hate Tao Qian but the old man was fine. His faction mechanic is a bit 200 years (for those having some League culture, for those who don't well, it's a bit convoluted) but overall it's an interesting take on a subject that was actually really important in the time period (with an exodus caused by the war). Also imho the only thing missing with TQ is the ability to confederate and be led by Liu Bei when TQ dies.
  • Misaka_ComplexMisaka_Complex Registered Users Posts: 2,448
    Daddy Shao for sure because he's pretty much the only unique character for his faction and he was the most powerful warlord besides the Big Dong before Cao Cao defeated him in GuanDu ever since the start of the game in 190, and also because of all the memes that were created for this game based around Daddy Shao.

  • kaihookaihoo Registered Users Posts: 311
    edited August 1
    Besides the obvious ones like Yuan Shao who is already present (barely) in the game, there were quite a number of other warlords who took part in campaign against Dong Zhuo but not playable in TW3K.

    The minor warlords of Zhang Miao, Han Fu, Bao Xin, Yuan Yi, Kong Zhou, Wang Kuang, Qiao Mao, Liu Dai and Zhang Lu etc. I would like to see CA flesh them out eventually and make them into playable factions just like what they have done with Tao Qian, Kong Rong and Zhang Yan.

    For me I would like to see Han Fu and Zhang Lu factions fleshed out and made playable. Han Fu so I can change the course of history and destroy Yuan Shao. And Zhang Lu for the possibility of interesting religious mechanics.

    Hopefully CA does not ignore fleshing out these minor factions as well...
    Post edited by kaihoo on
  • ComradCommodoreComradCommodore Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 515
    If I was CA I would probably mostly concentrate on the factions directly/mostly directly with the time period, leave the minor warlords to the mod makers

    I'm sure we will get to a point where "make them unique" could have everyone fleshed out
  • Misaka_ComplexMisaka_Complex Registered Users Posts: 2,448

    If I was CA I would probably mostly concentrate on the factions directly/mostly directly with the time period, leave the minor warlords to the mod makers

    I'm sure we will get to a point where "make them unique" could have everyone fleshed out

    Yeah, I would like to see CA flesh out the major warlords like Daddy Shao than focus their efforts on minor warlords like Zhang Lu and Co. I would argue that more people wake up in the morning being more excited to play Daddy Shao with his new rooster of unique characters vassalizing all of China than playing Zhang Lu or some other minor warlord.
  • kaihookaihoo Registered Users Posts: 311
    No not at all.. I'm not suggesting CA to forget Yuan Shao and start working on minor factions instead. What I'm saying is, after the popular factions like Yuan Shao and Nanman are pretty much completed, I would like to see CA work on the other warlords and make their factions playable as well, just like Kong Rong, Liu Biao, Tao Qian and Zhang Yan factions. Because there's no reason for not giving the other warlords the same level of work. There's still many of them waiting to be developed and fleshed out beautifully. All of them opportunities for CA to leave no stone upturned and strive to make TW3K even more immersive and reaching further heights.

    I am looking forward to see these factions being developed made playable as well and released as FLCs like over time. What I'm trying to do is suggest to CA, some ideas on how to develop them so as to avoid them ending up like poor quality FLC packs like Tao Qian.

    Which is why I am keen to gather from the forum, which minor factions do people want to play as after Yuan Shao, after Nanman. I strongly feel, if CA wants to make TW3K the best it could be, they should also commit to the fleshing out most of the minor warlords as well. Not just in terms of their unique portraits but also make their factions playable. Something that mods can't be relied upon to do.

    Many might think there is not much point in developing the minor warlords since they'll all be culturally similar but I feel that is a very poor and lazy excuse for ignoring the minor warlords however that's for another post..
  • Misaka_ComplexMisaka_Complex Registered Users Posts: 2,448
    kaihoo said:

    No not at all.. I'm not suggesting CA to forget Yuan Shao and start working on minor factions instead. What I'm saying is, after the popular factions like Yuan Shao and Nanman are pretty much completed, I would like to see CA work on the other warlords and make their factions playable as well, just like Kong Rong, Liu Biao, Tao Qian and Zhang Yan factions. Because there's no reason for not giving the other warlords the same level of work. There's still many of them waiting to be developed and fleshed out beautifully. All of them opportunities for CA to leave no stone upturned and strive to make TW3K even more immersive and reaching further heights.

    Well I would rather get into the minor warlords after the major ones are finished and complete, because as of right now Daddy Shao isn't even complete and there are so many bugs in the game that still needs fixing. Right now I think that getting too much into minor warlords will only divert CA's attention for their current task at hand, which is to finish the base game by completing the major warlords and fixing longstanding bugs such as auto fire nor working in ambush battles and more.
  • kaihookaihoo Registered Users Posts: 311



    Well I would rather get into the minor warlords after the major ones are finished and complete, because as of right now Daddy Shao isn't even complete and there are so many bugs in the game that still needs fixing. Right now I think that getting too much into minor warlords will only divert CA's attention for their current task at hand, which is to finish the base game by completing the major warlords and fixing longstanding bugs such as auto fire nor working in ambush battles and more.

    I fully agree. Priority now should be as what u have said. But i think, minor factions should not be ignored in base game. They form a fundamental part of the game narrative as well. Fighting the myriad of generic warlord faces in Mandate of Heaven just sucks the joy out of the game for me. But yes, priority right now should be on Yuan Shao and Nanman for sure. CA should absolutely take their time with it and give these two their best.
  • Misaka_ComplexMisaka_Complex Registered Users Posts: 2,448
    kaihoo said:

    I fully agree. Priority now should be as what u have said. But i think, minor factions should not be ignored in base game. They form a fundamental part of the game narrative as well. Fighting the myriad of generic warlord faces in Mandate of Heaven just sucks the joy out of the game for me. But yes, priority right now should be on Yuan Shao and Nanman for sure. CA should absolutely take their time with it and give these two their best.

    I agree that the minor warlords having genetic faces kind of bother me, but what bothers me more is how Cao Ren who is a very well established figure in Cao Cao's ranks looking like a generic bothers me much more. How Cao Hong, Cao Chun, Cao Xiu not starting with Cao Cao is also very disturbing as the game still leaves much out of even the starting factions so they have a very long way to go before getting into the minor warlords from there. I do think that one thing they can do in the meantime is to make certain minor warlords have unique portraits like Liu Zhang has without getting too much details into improving those factions for now until the base game is more complete.
  • Bright_EyesBright_Eyes Registered Users Posts: 232
    I agree that priority is to rework factions. But just for fun.

    I think the most pressing is Liu Yan/Liu Zhang. Both should have been in the base game over Kong Rong quite frankly.

    I like Zhang Lu. You could make him a religious faction and give him lots of unique units centring around it. I don't think he should be a champion, is thizs accurate? Did he fight himself?
  • kaihookaihoo Registered Users Posts: 311

    I agree that priority is to rework factions. But just for fun.

    I think the most pressing is Liu Yan/Liu Zhang. Both should have been in the base game over Kong Rong quite frankly.

    I like Zhang Lu. You could make him a religious faction and give him lots of unique units centring around it. I don't think he should be a champion, is thizs accurate? Did he fight himself?

    Awesome, this is exactly what I wanted to find out. Your thoughts on the minor warlords since if CA have plans to add them into the game one by one, we might as well help them along and let them know which ones are more preferred or more significant. Interesting you mention Liu Yan/Liu Zhang over Kong Rong, why so?

    And yeah i thought Zhang Lu would be cool, but I have next to no idea how significant or powerful a warlord he was.. He does seem to have significant military strength.. Seemingly more than Liu Zhang who wanted help from Cao Cao and Liu Bei in order to defeat Zhang Lu's threat though.. Be great if the forumers could contribute heir thoughts on the relative power distributions of the minor warlords at that time. I thought this could be an interesting discussion and help contribute to ideas for future Lord packs...

  • Misaka_ComplexMisaka_Complex Registered Users Posts: 2,448
    kaihoo said:

    And yeah i thought Zhang Lu would be cool, but I have next to no idea how significant or powerful a warlord he was.. He does seem to have significant military strength.. Seemingly more than Liu Zhang who wanted help from Cao Cao and Liu Bei in order to defeat Zhang Lu's threat though.. Be great if the forumers could contribute heir thoughts on the relative power distributions of the minor warlords at that time. I thought this could be an interesting discussion and help contribute to ideas for future Lord packs...

    To me, Zhang Lu is just some minor warlord that surrendered when XiaHou Dun suggested to Cao Cao to take eastern Shu because Zhang Lu would surrender without a fight, and he just surrendered as XiaHou Dun predicted in the novels. I don't recall him ever fighting as a general so it makes no sense to me that he's a champion. I see him as similar to Han Fu, who just surrendered when he was attacked so I don't see them as anything significant. Liu Yan/Liu Zhang were in a much better position to expand their territory since they pretty much had Shu province with a bigger landmass all to themselves historically so I would argue that they would be more important. Furthermore Shu had it's own prominent generals such as Zhang Ren and Yan Yan while Kong Rong had none (let's be honest here, who is Wang XIu??).

    Another interesting minor warlord who I think would be somewhat significant is Liu Yao, who pretty much owned many parts of Wu before Sun Ce conquered them under Yuan Shu's banner. Liu Yao also had Taishi Cheese before he defected to join Sun Ce.
  • Bright_EyesBright_Eyes Registered Users Posts: 232
    Liu Zhang is more important because he had a large territory and even though he was very incompetent, he had some very talented generals. He also got into a major with with Liu Bei (and lost). Many of his best generals went to Liu Biei. From a gameplay perspective, he also lives in the south west, which would be good for faction diversity. Kong Rong is utterly insignificant in the novel, aside from his intellect.

    The thing about Zhang Lu is that even though he was insignificant, his religious aspect makes him interesting. I don't think they'd give him a unique roster, because he would be the only faction of his culture, but they could give him some cool units. Essentially they could go the Yanbaihu route of taking someone very unimportant and making something out of him. I think he would be good for gameplay purposes, because he starts near Liu Zhang and Ma Teng, so he could be a cool little challenge for them, even if he would probably die to the AI very quickly. He's also always around.

    I think Shi Xie is an important add because he's the only one who starts out right at the bottom south of the map, so he starts in an interesting area. They could also make him and his vassals a unique Vietnamese culture, which would be good for gameplay diversity. The only issue I see with him is giving him good challenges in the early game. I dunno, flesh out some bandits or yellow turbans near him?

    I don't think Zhang Miao, Han Fu, Bao Xin, Yuan Yi, Kong Zhou, Wang Kuang, Qiao Mao, Liu Dai should be playable. They have nothing interesting to offer and they all start near many more interesting and fleshed out characters.

    In terms of who else you could add, Han Sui could be an option, although I think he'd be pretty uninteresting with Ma Teng right next to him. Liu Yao could be added, but I think it would be hard to make him interesting and he has a dull portrait. I don't think they will make him playable and I think they made him and Wang Lang look that way because they aren't supposed to be that exciting, but more than generic.
  • kaihookaihoo Registered Users Posts: 311
    Interesting, goods point about Kong Rong, no idea why was he in the main roster at all over the likes of Liu Zhang

    I do hope they make Liu Yao playable eventually.. The local boss of that area...would surely make that part of the map more exciting. In fact i was pleasantly surprised to see him and Wang Lang receiving unique portraits in AWB. Theydon't look spectacular but at least they have a unique design. Bodes well for the rest of the characters who haven't received one...

    Absolutely Shi Xie as well.. he could very well be the one in the upcoming FLC but not too sure of his role in the larger scheme of things..

    Serious Trivia was pretty excited with the thought of Liu Zhang, Zhang Lu and Han Sui being made playable too.

    And well i know guys like Zhang Miao, Han Fu, Bao Xin, Yuan Yi, Kong Zhou, Wang Kuang, Qiao Mao, Liu Dai are far from the priority at all but it would still be nice to have if they are made playable too. Then no one could accuse CA of cutting corners anymore. lol After all, 3K is much about characters..

    Seems like the FLC Lord most like to see are Liu Zhang, followed by the likes of Zhang Lu, Han Sui, then Shi Xie and Liu Yao... Hope CA takes note of this...

    Great input guys
  • Bright_EyesBright_Eyes Registered Users Posts: 232
    I think they made Kong Rong playable because at the time of release he was the only strategist leader. You couldn't make Liu Zhang a strategist. I still think it wasn't a smart idea to make him playable over Liu Zhang, but it is funny to mess about with Kong Rong and make him a badass with his crossbows. Although Liu Chong has kind of made him redundant there.

  • forcemanforceman Registered Users Posts: 15
    I think it's pretty clear that CA try to save Liu Zhang for a DLC focus on Liu Bei's invasion of Yi province, because frankly speaking, he does not become any relevant or important both in history and novel until later down the line when he got invaded by Liu Bei. Even if he get introduces in the game now, he will faces the same treatment with Yuan Shao; Barren and shallow mechanic and also the only unique character in his own faction, has to wait for future DLC for CA to flesh him out.

    In case of Zhang Lu, while Zhang Lu was a minor warlord compare to other big ones, He was actually one of the most unique warlord of his era: He was both Han warlord who ruled without government authority and cultist leader who support Taoism as a main religion and ideology of his domain, he also rule his land in a theocratic manner by appoint members from his own cult into government positions, making him similar to the Yellow Turbans in game. These 2 points is enough for CA to make him a pretty unique warlord, maybe give him access to some of Yellow Turban mechanics and/or units, allow him to conduct diplomacy with the Yellow Turbans, or even introduces new Ideology mechanic that are similar to religions and culture mechanic from older titles in a big update with him similar to Yan Baihu and Bandits rework, and has him access to new mechanic that focus around ideology system by converting all of China into Taoist theocratic state.

    Also while a minor warlord himself, his role in both history and novel also guarantee him as a new faction that we will absolutely have in the future DLC/FLC; waged war against Liu Zhang in the south and won (Give both him and Zhang an enemy to fight and land to expand), welcomed Ma Chao and his followers to his domain after Chao got his arse kicked by Cao Cao (Can allow him to gain control of Ma Chao's characters and units), and got invaded by Cao before surrendered (Allow players to have interesting dilemma to choose; Joins Cao Cao and fight Liu Bei, Joins Liu Bei and fight Cao Cao, Joins Zhang and fight Bei, Joins Ma Chao/Han Sui and invade the central plain etc.)
  • Misaka_ComplexMisaka_Complex Registered Users Posts: 2,448
    CA kind of blew Kong Rong out of proportions, he was actually a scholar who was most known for bad mouthing Cao Cao but they made him into this billionaire venture capitalist in the game which is historically inaccurate.
  • MasterSlayeXMasterSlayeX Registered Users Posts: 71
    Imo

    Liu Yan/Zhang - faction from start of conflict till the start of the three kingdoms . One of the last to fall . Still has time after his surrender to serve Shu/wu and has many people of talent who eventually go on to serve Shu or were known for being good

    The Wuhuan Tribe (Tadun)
    People say about yuan Shao and these guys were loyal to yuan Shao . They could start in a coalition with yuan Shao or as a vassel under him . A lot of people want more unique tribes and a nomadic tribe would be a good choice .

    Cai Mao
    Yes he’s Liu biaos vassel but he was a massive contributor towards how Liu biaos faction split . Cai mao supporting Liu Cong due to Cong being married to lady cais niece having a political battle to stop Liu Qi from succeeding. He could be the first warlord with a fixed vasselage where Liu biao cannot disown him and the other way around but he has more control than a normal vassel

    Gongsun Du/Yuan
    He is THE last non 3 kingdom to go down . Also known for fighting off Korea and had other . What would make him good though is just how difficult of a faction he would be to play as . Early on yah not too had but imagine trying to do gongsun yuans rebellion with wei owning half the land .

    Han Sui
    I mean he just fits a good warlord . He’s around for a long time , has some good Officers and such
  • kaihookaihoo Registered Users Posts: 311
    forceman said:

    I think it's pretty clear that CA try to save Liu Zhang for a DLC focus on Liu Bei's invasion of Yi province,

    Well, it's still a question mark on plans of an "Invasion of Yi Province" DLC though.. It doesn't seem to be in their immediate plans...
    forceman said:

    Even if he get introduces in the game now, he will faces the same treatment with Yuan Shao; Barren and shallow mechanic and also the only unique character in his own faction, has to wait for future DLC for CA to flesh him out.

    Perhaps this explains for the Captain Retinue mechanic of Yuan Shao's faction... basically place holders for the lack of generals until a proper fleshing out of the faction is done. Yuan Shao's faction really sucks right now, which is why i didn't bother playing Yuan Shao...

    CA kind of blew Kong Rong out of proportions, he was actually a scholar who was most known for bad mouthing Cao Cao but they made him into this billionaire venture capitalist in the game which is historically inaccurate.

    LOL well, if they can do that for Kong Rong, wouldn't that be fabulous if CA puts in the same effort for Zhang Miao, Han Fu, DIng Yuan and Bian Zhang!

  • RewanRewan Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,754
    edited August 3
    Kong Rong was an official that supported Liu Bei in the early years and also faced against Yuan Shao (well he got kicked hard but he tried). I don't think he was too irrelevant (at least in 190).


    But to be fair he was there to be the real "Building Tall" faction.
  • Bright_EyesBright_Eyes Registered Users Posts: 232
    Rewan said:

    Kong Rong was an official that supported Liu Bei in the early years and also faced against Yuan Shao (well he got kicked hard but he tried). I don't think he was too irrelevant (at least in 190).


    But to be fair he was there to be the real "Building Tall" faction.

    Yeah, even though he was irrelevant, he was far more significant than the likes of Zhang Miao, Han Fu, DIng Yuan and Bian Zhang.
  • Bright_EyesBright_Eyes Registered Users Posts: 232

    Imo

    Cai Mao
    Yes he’s Liu biaos vassel but he was a massive contributor towards how Liu biaos faction split . Cai mao supporting Liu Cong due to Cong being married to lady cais niece having a political battle to stop Liu Qi from succeeding. He could be the first warlord with a fixed vasselage where Liu biao cannot disown him and the other way around but he has more control than a normal vassel

    Gongsun Du/Yuan
    He is THE last non 3 kingdom to go down . Also known for fighting off Korea and had other . What would make him good though is just how difficult of a faction he would be to play as . Early on yah not too had but imagine trying to do gongsun yuans rebellion with wei owning half the land .

    I think these two are really good ideas. Cai Mao because I think he's an interesting character and could have some interesting events with Lady Cai (since they worked together to undermine Liu Biao in the novel). It would also be cool to have a faction who starts as a vassal.

    Gongsun Du would be good as the Zheng Jiang type ultra hard mode and would be pretty mandatory if Korea is introduced.

    I still think Liu Zhang and Shi Xie have the priority over them though!
  • Misaka_ComplexMisaka_Complex Registered Users Posts: 2,448
    kaihoo said:

    LOL well, if they can do that for Kong Rong, wouldn't that be fabulous if CA puts in the same effort for Zhang Miao, Han Fu, DIng Yuan and Bian Zhang!

    The the biggest problem is that his "trade monopoly" it just a glorified version of trade agreements with better stats.
    Rewan said:

    Kong Rong was an official that supported Liu Bei in the early years and also faced against Yuan Shao (well he got kicked hard but he tried). I don't think he was too irrelevant (at least in 190).


    But to be fair he was there to be the real "Building Tall" faction.

    I thought Liu Biao was the build tall faction, I build wide with Kong Rong and he does very well.
  • RewanRewan Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,754
    edited August 4
    I thought Liu Biao was the build tall faction, I build wide with Kong Rong and he does very well.


    Liu Biao was not really "build tall" at release (he was a mixed bag), only after they gave him governance did it limit him to building tall.

    Kong Rong on the other hand goes full financial in the campaign, but having armies will wreck your trade influence (so it's better to have fewer armies, hence less territory to cover)
  • Misaka_ComplexMisaka_Complex Registered Users Posts: 2,448
    Rewan said:

    Liu Biao was not really "build tall" at release (he was a mixed bag), only after they gave him governance did it limit him to building tall.

    Kong Rong on the other hand goes full financial in the campaign, but having armies will wreck your trade influence (so it's better to have fewer armies, hence less territory to cover)

    Ok sure, but Liu Biao is definitely the build tall faction in the current patch. I just use one army to run everything over regardless of who I play to keep costs low and only use 2nd army (usually just 1 OP general) to defend settlements so Kong Rong worked just fine for me doing the rapid zerg expansion strategy, so I never saw him as a build tall guy.
  • kaihookaihoo Registered Users Posts: 311
    edited August 4



    Yeah, even though Kong Rong was irrelevant, he was far more significant than the likes of Zhang Miao, Han Fu, DIng Yuan and Bian Zhang.

    Was he? I'm not that certain. Well the below was what I got from Wikipedia regarding these gentlemen of the Han.

    Zhang Miao -
    Was the Administrator (太守) of Chenliu Commandery and was quite a well respected individual of the time. He and Cao Cao were among the first to take up arms against Dong Zhuo in 190, leading to the formation of a coalition against Dong Zhuo.

    Han Fu -
    Was the Governor of the Ji Province, one of the 9 Provinces of ancient China. Wouldn't be fair to dismiss him just like that. As governor he definitely welded significant power but they way of his demise made it seem like he failed to harness that power of his position.

    Ding Yuan -
    Was the Inspector/warlord of the Bing Province. In 189, both Ding Yuan and Dong Zhuo were summoned into the capital Luoyang with their individual troops to assist in the struggle against the powerful eunuch faction. Both were lords of their respective provinces so they surely must hold considerable military strength at the time right?

    I'd also want to point out as well, that the term "minor warlords" can be misleading because at the start of the Three Kingdoms, all of them were minor warlords including Yuan Shao and Cao Cao whose position was even lower than a minor warlord. Liu Bei at that time was still a nobody.

    To dismiss the importance and influence of the likes of DIng Yuan, Han Fu and Zhang Miao in the Three Kingdoms also means ignoring a big chunk of the early chapters of the story when they held considerable political and military power before losing it. In fact, they were the ones together with Shi Xie and Liu Zhang whose contract/loyalty with the Han court ensured the political unity of the realm of the Han Dynasty until just before its rupture.

    I would urge CA to develop them further. Delve deeper into researching these characters and in the future flesh them out well. Hopefully as playable factions.


  • Misaka_ComplexMisaka_Complex Registered Users Posts: 2,448
    Well just because someone held a certain court position doesn't mean that they were as important in the storyline. For example Dong Cheng held a very high position in the Han court but he wasn't as relevant in the lore. While Han Fu and Ding Yuan officially held higher positions, it doesn't change how Han Fu was just this guy who surrendered to Daddy Shao when he was attacked and Ding Yuan was this stepping stone for Lu Bu to get killed off when his time came. Zhang Miao I would argue had more significance in the story due to his interactions with Cao Cao, but just because someone held a higher ranking position or was a minor governor of certain provinces doesn't mean that they were as important.
  • Bright_EyesBright_Eyes Registered Users Posts: 232
    My opinion on this matter is as following.

    The most crucial adds are Nanman, Liu Zhang and Shi Xie. They are the factions which need to be added most pressingly, because they are somewhat important players in the actual 3K narrative. They also help flesh out the south of the map so are really important from a gameplay perspective.

    After their additions, I think we should add the tribal warriors of the north, because they would give the game some more diversity and since Cao Cao did actually fight them it would make sense narratively.

    Only after this is done, I think we should then add the likes of Zhang Lu, Han Sui and Cai Mao for some added gameplay fun. Taking the most significant of the remaining minor players.

    Once all of this has been achieved, I think we should add Gongsun Du and Korea. I'm honestly not that interested in adding Korea, since it's very insignificant to 3K and since it's kind of off on its own right on the north east I don't think it contributes much diversity to the current map.

    Then, and only then, do I think we should consider adding figures as insignificant as Zhang Miao, Han Fu, DIng Yuan and Bian Zhang.
  • kaihookaihoo Registered Users Posts: 311
    edited August 7

    Well just because someone held a certain court position doesn't mean that they were as important in the storyline.

    Sure, they might not be as important in relation to the novel but historically they were. They were powerful, high ranking lords of their own provinces who became early casualties of Dong Zhuo and subsequently, Yuan Shao and Cao Cao. Of course the focus of the novel might be on Shu, Wu and Wei but the release of TW3K made me greatly appreciate the supporting characters as well. The likes of Guo Jia, Pang Tong, Sun Jian, Sun Ce, Dian Wei and Liu Chong despite their tragic short lives and arguably limited roles in the novel, were given a fresh start and a second chance in the game.

    Which is exactly why I feel, CA should not overlook the importance of these warlords who were in fact, very much a strong force especially during the rise of the Yellow Turban rebellion in the Mandate of Heaven DLC. The YT Rebellion was never the main focus in the novel but in this game it was! Thanks to an astute decision by CA in recognizing its narrative potential and their willingness to create an entire DLC around it. With Zhang Jiao, Zhang Bao, Zhang Liang and their friends wonderfully fleshed out despite them being only mentioned in passing in the novel.

    And who were the ones fighting the Zhang Brothers? It was the "minor" warlords isn't it? Characters like Zhang Miao, Han Fu, DIng Yuan, Bian Zhang, Bao Xin. Wang Kuang, Kong Zhou,Yuan Yi, Lu Kang...etc under the banner of the Han led by Huangfu Song, Lu Zhi and Zhu Jun? These "insignificant" warlords who were at the time a pretty big deal, basically supplied the manpower which defeated the YT rebellion and the Mandate of Heaven DLC was basically their time to shine. However while CA did a great job in fleshing out the losing side (Yellow Turbans), they failed to do the same for the winning side. Instead, CA chose to flesh out only 2 Han generals (Lu Zhi and Huangfu Song) despite the various warlords going on to have a bigger presence later in the story as they crossed over to the Rise of Warlords campaign.

    Hence, I would argue that the "minor warlords" do have a much bigger role in the TW3K than they are given credit for and that their historical significance should not be simply regarded as plot devices or dismissed as mere stepping stones. That would not only be a massive disservice to the epic we know as the Three Kingdoms but also greatly understate the task CA have ahead of them in developing TW3K to the fullest.

    I do hope that CA recognizes this and work to flesh these factions out eventually starting from MOH.
    Post edited by kaihoo on
  • Bright_EyesBright_Eyes Registered Users Posts: 232
    I mean look I appreciate what your saying. Liu Chong is an absolutely nobody and I'd never heard of him but they made him really interesting. So I get what you mean. But he at least has something to work with by being a relative of the emperor and opponent of Yuan Shu (who didn't have many explciit rivals in the game before).

    That said, I just don't see the point of fleshing these guys who were only really relevant in 184 until we've fleshed out the far bigger figures.

    Like Han Fu. Why? We have Gongsun Zan, who is already very minor, but he had least had the whole thing going with his white horse cavalry. It's interesting. What does Han Fu offer? He's in the same area and serves the same role in opposing Yuan Shao. He's unnecessary. I feel that way about everyone you are listing. Kong Zhuo and Wang Kuang don't offer interesting starts or have some quirk you can develop in the same way that Liu Chong did.

    You could do something with Ding Yuan I think, because you could make him some Lu Bu parental figure. But since he dies after MoH, why bother?

    You use Sun Jian and Sun Ce as examples, but they are in a way, way different ball park to these guys.

    We already have many important factions not playable. Let's not jump to nobodies like Han Fu until we have them sorted.
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