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How Confederation Ruins Campaigns

TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior MemberRegistered Users Posts: 34,001
edited August 2020 in General Discussion
So, tried my luck in a Queek Vortex campaign after a lengthy WH2 hiatus. Meet Hag Graef on about turn 10, am somewhat friendly with those guys because we both fight HE and then five turns later Hag Graef is sucked up by Naggaroth. Not even turn 20, and already a major faction is removed from the game for no discernable reason since Malus was doing well. How's that even justified? And that's a relatively harmless example.

Confederation as is sucks balls. CA needs to fix it so it doesn't immediately remove major factions from the game. It needs at the very least a cooldown of 30 turns, beginning with turn one and prevent major factions from getting sucked up willy nilly.
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Comments

  • WaaaghCheifWaaaghCheif Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,332
    I too, hate how Eshin becomes the Galactic Empire in matter of 50 turns and confederates literally every major Skaven faction. Making it a Whack-A-Mole Continental.
  • FraxinusFraxinus Registered Users Posts: 467
    I cannot tell you how many times I have been 2-3 turns away from destroying a faction (say, the Order of Loremasters) and then they inexplicably confederate a much larger and more powerful faction (like Eataine). First of all this makes no sense, since a weaker faction should not be able to confederate a stronger one, and secondly it's a huge pain because in the space of one turn I went from finishing up a conquest to being at war with one of the largest powers on the map.
  • LordCommanderLordCommander Registered Users Posts: 2,808

    I too, hate how Eshin becomes the Galactic Empire in matter of 50 turns and confederates literally every major Skaven faction. Making it a Whack-A-Mole Continental.

    Never had that once. On multiple campaigns they disapeared after turn 50.

    As for confed, make a cooldown based on the size of the targeted faction. I don't like confed as a concept but with the recent changes to greenskins I think we're stuck with it.
    Observe the power of the edgy internet axegrinders and how quickly some have changed their tune- https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/300358/what-would-make-you-buy-the-game/p1

    Just as a warning against making predictions- https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/290416/time-to-admit-there-will-be-no-new-dlc-for-twwh-2#latest

  • XxXScorpionXxXXxXScorpionXxX Registered Users Posts: 4,969
    Playing Mortals Counts campaign, Greenskins currently have 65 settlements. I'm not looking forward to when they eventually declare war on me.
    Request scorched body textures, poisoned dying animations for infantry's skeletons, a blood slider that allows us to control how much blood appears in battle and make proper death animations for all ethereal units so they vanish for Blood for the Blood God 3.
  • roekkumroekkum Registered Users Posts: 422
    I hate it when it happens so early and without any threat posed to the factions or without one faction being overly powerful, like how you illustrate it. The most ridiculous thing about confederation to me is when I for instance in an Imrik campaign chased Grimgore's Ardboyz from one faction to the next, because each time he was down to one or two settlements, he swallowed up a much stronger Greenskin faction than himself. Much more than confederation I like the "recruit defeated legendary lords" mod, which can spice things up. As always Grom is removed early, but one time he got adopted by the Leaf Cutterz, who because of it became very powerful.
  • manuelpsmanuelps Registered Users Posts: 2,813
    edited August 2020
    Agreed, confederation needs a big overhaul, some starting ideas I wrote on Reddit some time ago:

    1) All major factions should be able to confederate, it shouldn't happen that if Reikland and Couronne are destroyed early game those races won't confederate and will be weak for the full campaign.

    2) Confederation should be tied to player's imperium level. If you play as Tyrion the AI should confederate easily to keep on track, but if you play as Imrik the AI should confederate more slowly, always depending on your performance.

    3) AI's confederations should be tied to faction's performance, meaning that is ridiculous that when you're kicking Karaz-a-karak hardly it confederates with a faction in the other side of the world.

    4) Relating to this, the AI shouldn't confederate with expeditionary forces, like bretonnian crusaders, the loremasters, the Greybeard prospectors or Malus faction, someone previously said it, you're about to destroy the Loremasters and then they confederate or are confederated, in both cases it sucks.

    5) Give the AI the same cooldowns as the player. It's sad that it's not the case from the very beginning.

    6) In order to confederate the player should accomplish some missions, nothing too complex, but controling x settlements or destroying some neighbour faction.



  • AkiAmazAkiAmaz Registered Users Posts: 511
    +1 OP

    For me 'vanilla' is the no confederation mod and I disable it only if I feel the new campaign requires it.

    I hate it. I get it though and understand why it is in the game but the implementation has soured my view of it. On the plus side it isn't irredeemable and others have suggested options which would be better than the standard.

    Until then No Confederation.
  • DaGangsterDaGangster Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,867
    Until they find a different way to let you get all the LL's it will have to be apart of the game.

    Team Vampire Counts

    "Many players cannot help approaching a game as an optimization puzzle. What gives the most reward for the least risk? What strategy provides the highest chance – or even a guaranteed chance – of success? Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game."

    - Soren Johnson
  • IamNotArobotIamNotArobot Registered Users Posts: 5,374
    I disagree with everyone here except @DaGangster

    Confederation is not bad and should stay as it is. They should unlock confederation for TK and Vampirates.

    Confederatoin already has cooldowns and penalties for doing it.

    If you are talking a about AI confederation, don't be a coward and face the new and bigger empire or just don't declare war on it. I agree that the strongest faction should confederate the weakest one.

    For exampel you are about to finish Order of Loremasters for good but they get confederated by the big Etaine, you get to choose, declare war or just ignore the new faction and declare war on other one.

    *Justice, cats and CONFEDERATION ENABLED for the Tomb Kings and Vampire Coast! feat mummies and Apophas.
    *Exclusive DLCs for Tomb Kings, Vampire Coast, BM, CW and WE! #DLCsAreRacesToo
    *Remaster all WH1 and WH2 faction icons for WH3!
    *Ogre Kingdoms core race or death!
    *Bring back settlement conquering artworks!
    *Gnoblar Carpet for Greesus
    *Improve UI


  • PTreePTree Registered Users Posts: 925
    I'm kind of torn about this. I think the best option, would be for CA to include some options before your campaign as some mods do.

    Sometimes you want to play a familiar faction, let's say Tyrion, and you don't want to have to grind your way around Ulthuan again and again. However, sometimes you might. That said, I do hate it when the AI confederates. Especially the Dawi. I think it would be better for the AI to assign a stronger faction in each race, for each campaign for variation, and that faction expand through conquest.

    Alot will be shifted around for WH3, such as the absence of a credible Chaos invasion in WH2. They really messed that up in ME's. Both at launch and ever since. Whenever I play, Empire wipes out Norsica and Chaos no problem. At least in WH1, it was a big threat.
  • VildvargVildvarg Registered Users Posts: 2,712

    I disagree with everyone here except @DaGangster

    Confederation is not bad and should stay as it is. They should unlock confederation for TK and Vampirates.

    Confederatoin already has cooldowns and penalties for doing it.

    If you are talking a about AI confederation, don't be a coward and face the new and bigger empire or just don't declare war on it. I agree that the strongest faction should confederate the weakest one.

    For exampel you are about to finish Order of Loremasters for good but they get confederated by the big Etaine, you get to choose, declare war or just ignore the new faction and declare war on other one.

    The problem with your example is that in many cases, the one on the ropes about to be wiped out (loremasters in this instance) will confederate a much larger much more powerful faction (Eataine). Which is a big issue because as was stated, you go from finishing off an enemy to fighting someone elses empire under the name of Loremasters because the game fudged it diplomatically.

    You already aren't automatically at war with Eataine if they confederate the last settlement of Loremasters.

    What the issue is here is the obviously fudged cheat diplomacy involved in making that happen and it's a legitimate gripe. I get the AI needs cheats to stay competitive, but that's just so damned nonsensical and gamey it's ridiculous.

    Also no confederation for tomb kings, Settra does not serve and he would execute that Nagash sycophant Arkhan upon walking into the diplomacy room.
  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 15,445
    Vildvarg said:

    I disagree with everyone here except @DaGangster

    Confederation is not bad and should stay as it is. They should unlock confederation for TK and Vampirates.

    Confederatoin already has cooldowns and penalties for doing it.

    If you are talking a about AI confederation, don't be a coward and face the new and bigger empire or just don't declare war on it. I agree that the strongest faction should confederate the weakest one.

    For exampel you are about to finish Order of Loremasters for good but they get confederated by the big Etaine, you get to choose, declare war or just ignore the new faction and declare war on other one.

    The problem with your example is that in many cases, the one on the ropes about to be wiped out (loremasters in this instance) will confederate a much larger much more powerful faction (Eataine). Which is a big issue because as was stated, you go from finishing off an enemy to fighting someone elses empire under the name of Loremasters because the game fudged it diplomatically.

    You already aren't automatically at war with Eataine if they confederate the last settlement of Loremasters.

    What the issue is here is the obviously fudged cheat diplomacy involved in making that happen and it's a legitimate gripe. I get the AI needs cheats to stay competitive, but that's just so damned nonsensical and gamey it's ridiculous.

    Also no confederation for tomb kings, Settra does not serve and he would execute that Nagash sycophant Arkhan upon walking into the diplomacy room.
    It cracks me up how people use that one line of fluffy dialogue as if there aren't dozens of LL right now that can confederate that wouldn't "serve" the faction they're usurped by.
    MarcusLivius: You are indeed a lord of entitlement.
  • XxXScorpionXxXXxXScorpionXxX Registered Users Posts: 4,969

    Playing Mortals Counts campaign, Greenskins currently have 65 settlements. I'm not looking forward to when they eventually declare war on me.

    they declared war on me. I'm completely ****. Chaos is invading in the North. Bretonnia in the west. Greenskins everywhere. **** this game.
    Request scorched body textures, poisoned dying animations for infantry's skeletons, a blood slider that allows us to control how much blood appears in battle and make proper death animations for all ethereal units so they vanish for Blood for the Blood God 3.
  • BrynjarKBrynjarK Registered Users Posts: 896
    Confederation shouldn't be possible between LL. Only minor factions and LL.



  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 15,445

    Playing Mortals Counts campaign, Greenskins currently have 65 settlements. I'm not looking forward to when they eventually declare war on me.

    they declared war on me. I'm completely ****. Chaos is invading in the North. Bretonnia in the west. Greenskins everywhere. **** this game.
    That sounds really epic and fun actually.
    MarcusLivius: You are indeed a lord of entitlement.
  • XxXScorpionXxXXxXScorpionXxX Registered Users Posts: 4,969
    edited August 2020
    Came up with a rough draft of a military strategy. Salvania and Kislev territories are in ruin. Multiple Orc armies with Waagh reinforcements in the area. Multiple Chaos armies in Kislev Territories. Solution. Send Mansfred and Isabella West and North west. Mansfred lightning strikes Orc armies and systematically take them out. Isabella takes a defensive position and holds out until Mansfrend can reinforce her. Once finished Mansfrend pushes west into the mountains and works his way south. Isabella rebuilds the area and prepares for any additional chaos invasions. Vlad descends into the badlands and starts a counter offensive on important Orc strong holds. Herman currently under attack by 3 Bretonnian armies in the east. Defeat them and fall back into my territory. Temp Lord takes up defensive position in Reiskland to prevent Bretonnia from gaining ground. Norca is at war with Bretonnia seem to be leaving me alone. Let them fight. Herman heads south to take the southern realms from the Orcs. Temp lord stays to prevent Bretonnian armies from gaining ground.
    Request scorched body textures, poisoned dying animations for infantry's skeletons, a blood slider that allows us to control how much blood appears in battle and make proper death animations for all ethereal units so they vanish for Blood for the Blood God 3.
  • XxXScorpionXxXXxXScorpionXxX Registered Users Posts: 4,969

    Playing Mortals Counts campaign, Greenskins currently have 65 settlements. I'm not looking forward to when they eventually declare war on me.

    they declared war on me. I'm completely ****. Chaos is invading in the North. Bretonnia in the west. Greenskins everywhere. **** this game.
    Came up with a rough draft of a military strategy. Salvania and Kislev territories are in ruin. Multiple Orc armies with Waagh reinforcements in the area. Multiple Chaos armies in Kislev Territories. Solution. Send Mansfred and Isabella West and North west. Mansfred lightning strikes Orc armies and systematically take them out. Isabella takes a defensive position and holds out until Mansfrend can reinforce her. Once finished Mansfrend pushes west into the mountains and works his way south. Isabella rebuilds the area and prepares for any additional chaos invasions. Vlad descends into the badlands and starts a counter offensive on important Orc strong holds. Herman currently under attack by 3 Bretonnian armies in the east. Defeat them and fall back into my territory. Temp Lord takes up defensive position in Reiskland to prevent Bretonnia from gaining ground. Norca is at war with Bretonnia seem to be leaving me alone. Let them fight. Herman heads south to take the southern realms from the Orcs. Temp lord stays to prevent Bretonnian armies from gaining ground.
    Request scorched body textures, poisoned dying animations for infantry's skeletons, a blood slider that allows us to control how much blood appears in battle and make proper death animations for all ethereal units so they vanish for Blood for the Blood God 3.
  • Steph_F_DavidSteph_F_David Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,143
    I agree confederation are poorly implemented. At least for the Empire, with the Elector Count system, there is a mechanism to explain it, where you have to "work" to get it. It still need improvement, so that confederation can happen only if you really support actively the faction for enough time.

    But take Brettonia... Take 4 turns researching a tech, and automatic confederation???
  • CanuoveaCanuovea Registered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 15,835
    When Greenskins confederate they do so horrendously rapidly.
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  • ThomassiniThomassini Registered Users Posts: 1,151

    Vildvarg said:

    I disagree with everyone here except @DaGangster

    Confederation is not bad and should stay as it is. They should unlock confederation for TK and Vampirates.

    Confederatoin already has cooldowns and penalties for doing it.

    If you are talking a about AI confederation, don't be a coward and face the new and bigger empire or just don't declare war on it. I agree that the strongest faction should confederate the weakest one.

    For exampel you are about to finish Order of Loremasters for good but they get confederated by the big Etaine, you get to choose, declare war or just ignore the new faction and declare war on other one.

    The problem with your example is that in many cases, the one on the ropes about to be wiped out (loremasters in this instance) will confederate a much larger much more powerful faction (Eataine). Which is a big issue because as was stated, you go from finishing off an enemy to fighting someone elses empire under the name of Loremasters because the game fudged it diplomatically.

    You already aren't automatically at war with Eataine if they confederate the last settlement of Loremasters.

    What the issue is here is the obviously fudged cheat diplomacy involved in making that happen and it's a legitimate gripe. I get the AI needs cheats to stay competitive, but that's just so damned nonsensical and gamey it's ridiculous.

    Also no confederation for tomb kings, Settra does not serve and he would execute that Nagash sycophant Arkhan upon walking into the diplomacy room.
    It cracks me up how people use that one line of fluffy dialogue as if there aren't dozens of LL right now that can confederate that wouldn't "serve" the faction they're usurped by.
    It cracks me up how people defend the utterly broken and ridiculous mechanic and want to spread it to everyone and their grandma.
  • ThomassiniThomassini Registered Users Posts: 1,151
    edited August 2020
    Confederations reduce variety on the campaign map and that’s besides outright cheating mentioned by OP.

    That’s the primary reason this mechanic needs to go for most factions.
  • ReeksReeks Registered Users Posts: 9,487
    Confederations NEED to go the way of the Dodo.
  • ThomassiniThomassini Registered Users Posts: 1,151
    edited August 2020
    steph74 said:

    I agree confederation are poorly implemented. At least for the Empire, with the Elector Count system, there is a mechanism to explain it, where you have to "work" to get it. It still need improvement, so that confederation can happen only if you really support actively the faction for enough time.

    But take Brettonia... Take 4 turns researching a tech, and automatic confederation???

    Bretonnia is broken faction by design, they’ve reduced their territory on the map by 70% and then gave them crutches to be able to survive - no supply lines, garrisons everywhere, broken AR, even more broken confederations, etc., etc.
  • YannirYannir Registered Users Posts: 2,026
    If there was another way to gain defeated Legendary Lords into your faction, I would not miss Confederations.

    I like my Allstar-squads.
    Ugh, I have spoken.
  • ReeksReeks Registered Users Posts: 9,487
    Yannir said:

    If there was another way to gain defeated Legendary Lords into your faction, I would not miss Confederations.

    I like my Allstar-squads.

    I recently found a mod for that, it´s bloody amazing and let´s me play around with all the characters of a race while expanding at my own leisure.
  • MonochromaticSpiderMonochromaticSpider Registered Users Posts: 1,828
    Confederation is clunky and there's some obvious nonsense in how the AI can use it as a repeated lifeline ("yo big guys, I'm having issues, why don't you submit to me so I can get all your stuff?") whereas players often have to boost relations to 300+ and be stronger overall and pay several hundred thousand currency to make it happen.

    But taking confederation out of the game means you either have to ally with other factions of your race, a very questionable prospect, or you have to literally fight meaningless civil wars, just because. Both options are horrendously bad. So taking confederation out is not an option.

    Limiting the AI confederation seems reasonable enough, except then a lot of superfactions don't really happen while the player just grows steadily regardless. So that's not great either.

    So at the end of the day, confederation is something that could probably be done better, but frankly there's also a lot of ways for it to be done worse.

    And reading people's complaints in this topic is depressing. Not a whole lot of legit grievances, not a whole lot of analysis, and not a whole lot of sensible suggestions. Some of the usual toxicity, though.
  • ReeksReeks Registered Users Posts: 9,487
    Taking out confederations is definitely a option, it would slow down the game some, and on top of that make those uber sized empires occur less.

    It´s the better option actually.

    #ConfederationsIsModernAids
  • ReeksReeks Registered Users Posts: 9,487
    Of course we would need some sort of rework to the game as taking away confederations in a vacuum would make the game too easy.
  • yolordmcswagyolordmcswag Registered Users Posts: 4,100
    I think confederation is a good mechanic, and very necessary for the AI in their current form. Without it, the player will reach 50+ settlements while no AI faction ever has more than 20, in every single campaign.

    Also, you say that a major faction is removed, but that's backwards. more than half the factions should be part of larger political entities from the start anyway, including Hag Greaf. I get having them separate at the start for gameplay reasons, but confederation is still necessary for the lategame to work.

    That said, it would be nice if all races had some internal political systems like the empire does, so that confederation worked a differently for each race.
  • CanuoveaCanuovea Registered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 15,835
    Personally, I'd kinda like it if the AI would confederate based on your own size. So like, they'd be more likely to work together when faced with a larger threat (ie, you).

    But I doubt that will ever happen.
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