New Mechanic : Legendary Grudges for Dwarves (Loremasters needed)

MalalTheRenegade#5644

Hi everyone,

As some of you may have noticed, Dwarves campaign mechanics feel a bit bland. This is mainly due to the fact that two of their main characteristics are still not implemented : Runesmithing and Engineer Guilds. But these will certainly come as specific faction mechanics for the expected new LLs Thorek on one side and Grim Burloksson/Malakai on the other.

So my solution is to improve the Book of Grudges mechanic (which do not feel "grudgy" enough IMO - those guys are supposed to keep grudges indefinetely and for the moment they just come and go faster than an Umgi's life). To do this I propose to add Legendary Grudges (what a long introduction ...):

The mechanic would add a set of new grudges coming from the lore which are really hard to clear and present from the beginning in the Book. Clearing them would give some (strong) bonuses to your faction. However, I am not fixed on how to give those bonuses so here is 3 different ways to do it:

1- Add a new level to the "Grudge bar" (the gauge on the top which gives you maluses if you keep Grudges) : As long as you haven't cleared enough of the LG (and only those, regular Grudges does not count), you suffer from a growth and public order penalty.
This might seem a bit bland because it's similar to what's already implemented, but it would help to feel that Dwarves are a dying Empire and add some difficulty to their campaign.

2- Each LG has its own set of (factionwide) bonuses given as a reward for clearing it : I really like this one but it might feel overpowered. I'll give a few example at the end.

3- A combination of 1&2 : Everyone is happy (except the Dwarves who are still grumpy).

Ok so now, we get to the important part : Which Legendary Grudges could be implemented into the game ?
This is when I need your help because I am nlt a Dwarf specialist so I'll only give a few to illustrate my proposition.

I- Retrieve Karak Eight Peaks : An easy one and it's already part of the Clan Angrund campaign. (Possible bonuses : +5 leadership against Skavens and Greenskins, +5 MD against Skaven and Greenskins)

II- Retrieve the Lost Holds : Build back to tier V all the most important holds lost during the Goblin Wars (Karak Drazh/Black Krag, Karak Varn/Cragmere, Karak Ungor). (Possible bonuses : Growth +15, Public order +1, Item : Banner of Lost Holds - not sure it's already in game)

III- Humble the Elves : Defeat Tyrion and Destroy Imrik (Bonuses : +10% from Trades).
Even if the grudge of the War of the Beard is settled (by killing the Phoenix King and taking his crown), it's still possible that some of the grudges from this time remained.
(The destroy vs defeat is aimed to avoid that someonelse clears the grudge for you)

IV- Vengeance against the trickster : Destroy Malekith and Defeat Morathi.
Because his tricks, Malekith is the reason why the War of the Beard started.

IV- Holds of the Ancients: Build back to Tier V the cities of Karak Zorn and Kraka Drak (Growth +10, Untainted +1, MD +2)

V- Bugman's Brewery : Built back the Brewery and produce X unit of Ale per turn (Bonus : +2 leadership, +2 MA)

So what do you think about all this ? (As usual I'll consider every feedback before improving and then posting the suggestion in the dedicated part of the forum).

TL;DR & I know some lore about Dwarves : Please list important (legendary) grudges that are still waiting to be settled.

Gyrvendal#9511

A mechanic almost exactly as you describe is already in the SFO mod FYI.
Some ancient grudges are relatively easy, like reclaiming various dwarf holds or destroying important factions like Grimgor, while others are really out there, like avenging the War of the Beard by killing Malekith.
In the mod, the Grudge bar starts near the middle due to all the old Grudges, but the bonuses have changed. The middle has almost no effects. Low grudges gives better diplomacy and public order, but slower movement and recruitment because the Dwarfs feel secure and complacent. At high grudges you get economic and PO maluses but combat bonuses to represent the Dwarf's desperation.

It's not super exciting, but at least it gives you some fun objectives. Honestly they could copy-paste it as is into vanilla. However, I don't think it would go well if they tried to sell it as DLC.

MalalTheRenegade#5644

Gyrvendal said:

A mechanic almost exactly as you describe is already in the SFO mod FYI.
Some ancient grudges are relatively easy, like reclaiming various dwarf holds or destroying important factions like Grimgor, while others are really out there, like avenging the War of the Beard by killing Malekith.
In the mod, the Grudge bar starts near the middle due to all the old Grudges, but the bonuses have changed. The middle has almost no effects. Low grudges gives better diplomacy and public order, but slower movement and recruitment because the Dwarfs feel secure and complacent. At high grudges you get economic and PO maluses but combat bonuses to represent the Dwarf's desperation.

It's not super exciting, but at least it gives you some fun objectives. Honestly they could copy-paste it as is into vanilla. However, I don't think it would go well if they tried to sell it as DLC.

Ok thanks, I have never played SFO so I didn't know ! I really like your description of it, I will give it a try.

Yeah you are right it would not work for a DLC but it's more a proposition for a second rework. The goal is also to give incentives to move away from the Karaz Ankor.

Now the problem is if it's already in mod, the devs will be less interested to implement it, even if it would be a great addition for vanilla players.

DwarfSizedBeard

A lot of the grudges you mentioned would be very problematic, the war of vengeance based ones would be mostly fine, but karak eight peaks should stay as a grudge only on belegar, beyond that, there should be a special gruge mechanic to make it feel like it will never be empty, any time you wound an enemy hero or lord in anyway it would be great if it notified you like it was a grudge settled instead of a notification they died, giving you some extra money oathgold or minor buff to your army for a few turns, to justify these grudges a name written at random from the name pool of generic lords and heros would mention about how that race murdered them, big named characters from races they hate would give more, or larger buffs, perhaps even unique buffs that are related to there defeat trait, ikit claw would give some debufd to enemy magic, while grimgore would give the enemy lord a substantial debuff to AP damage with minus 30 to 40

daelin4#9896

I think Legendary Grudges should just be extra Dwarf campaign objectives and act a bit like Angrund's mechanic: they are present at various points of the game but act more like bonus objectives.

And unlike bonus objectives, they are difficult in that they act as a dilemma. A typical Legendary Grudge for instance would be razing Greenskin strongholds like Black Crag, the starting position for Grimgor. Normally it's practical for you to simply occupy the place and move on as you expand, but with Legendary Grudges acting as a counter pressure, players would have to weight getting long-term bonuses associated with fulfilling Legendary Grudges, or ignore them for immediate benefits.

It worked that way with Religion in Shogun2: at some point with enough impetus, your faction is given the option to convert to Christianity: the decision comes with immediate significant and potentially disastrous drawbacks, but you gain benefits in the end like special units.

Rewards for completing Legendary Grudges therefore can come in a variety of choices. One that I am thinking is a random Dilemma of some powerful (or even new unique) items to choose from. Another could be a permanent possession of a resource you find yourself unable to get to craft items in the Forge mechanic. Yet another is a singificant Oathgold bonus.

I don't think we need a new Grudge bar to get this: these grudges can operate normally like having small penalties to hamper Dawitide, and unlike regular grudges don't incrementally increase penalties over time since they are meant to be achieved through a longer period of gameplay.

PhoenixKingMalekith#5710

As said before, once again SFO proves to be the solution.

Lord_Distamorfin#1941

Here's the list of grudges I made for my old rework thread.
- Grudge of Eight Peaks: Reclaim Karak Eight Peaks. (Gives option for immediate confederation with Belegar Ironhammer.)
- Grudge against the Warlord of Eight Peaks: Kill Skarsnik in battle.
- Grudge of Karak Azul: Destory Clan Mors. (Unlocks the Runic Armory of Karak Azul landmark)
- Grudge of Karag Durak: Avenge the grudge of Grimnir Halfhand by killing Queek Headtaker in battle.
- Grudge against Malekith: Avenge the betrayal of Snorri Whitebeard by killing Malekith in battle.
- Grudge of Vengeance: Caledor II is long dead, but many of his wrongs remain in the Book. Raze Vaul's Anvil in Caledor.
- Grudge of Fort Kreighof: The Elector Count of Ostermark has shortchanged the Dwarfs who built his fort by 2 1/2 pennies. Raze Essen. (Gives 2 gold)
- Grudge against Neferata: Neferata killed and razed the Dwarfs of Silver Pinnacle. Kill Neferata in battle.
- Grudge of The Silver Pinnacle: Neferata has stolen the Dwarf Hold of Silver Pinnacle. Occupy Silver Pinnacle.
- Grudge against the Lord of Undeath: Kill Krell in battle, assuming that he is eventually made a proper hero.
- Grudge against Grimgor Ironhide: Kill Grimgor Ironhide in battle.

MalalTheRenegade#5644

LordTorquemado said:

As said before, once again SFO proves to be the solution.

Yeah I agree but it's still sad that Dawi players have to rely on a mod to have a decent campaign (compared to TWW2 factions).

Lord_Distamorfin said:

Here's the list of grudges I made for my old rework thread.
- Grudge of Eight Peaks: Reclaim Karak Eight Peaks. (Gives option for immediate confederation with Belegar Ironhammer.)
- Grudge against the Warlord of Eight Peaks: Kill Skarsnik in battle.
- Grudge of Karak Azul: Destory Clan Mors. (Unlocks the Runic Armory of Karak Azul landmark)
- Grudge of Karag Durak: Avenge the grudge of Grimnir Halfhand by killing Queek Headtaker in battle.
- Grudge against Malekith: Avenge the betrayal of Snorri Whitebeard by killing Malekith in battle.
- Grudge of Vengeance: Caledor II is long dead, but many of his wrongs remain in the Book. Raze Vaul's Anvil in Caledor.
- Grudge of Fort Kreighof: The Elector Count of Ostermark has shortchanged the Dwarfs who built his fort by 2 1/2 pennies. Raze Essen. (Gives 2 gold)
- Grudge against Neferata: Neferata killed and razed the Dwarfs of Silver Pinnacle. Kill Neferata in battle.
- Grudge of The Silver Pinnacle: Neferata has stolen the Dwarf Hold of Silver Pinnacle. Occupy Silver Pinnacle.
- Grudge against the Lord of Undeath: Kill Krell in battle, assuming that he is eventually made a proper hero.
- Grudge against Grimgor Ironhide: Kill Grimgor Ironhide in battle.

Thanks for this. I was looking for Grudges against the Empire but couldn't find any (beginning a game by going after Ostermark could lead to an interesting playthrough).
It seems there is no grudges against Lizardmen in all the lore though.

daelin4#9896

Lack of Grudges towards Order factions is fine: most of us Dawi don't bother ourselves with insignificant players when we got our ancestors' greivances to attend to!

Lord_Distamorfin said:

Here's the list of grudges I made for my old rework thread.
- Grudge of Eight Peaks: Reclaim Karak Eight Peaks. (Gives option for immediate confederation with Belegar Ironhammer.)
- Grudge against the Warlord of Eight Peaks: Kill Skarsnik in battle.
- Grudge of Karak Azul: Destory Clan Mors. (Unlocks the Runic Armory of Karak Azul landmark)
- Grudge of Karag Durak: Avenge the grudge of Grimnir Halfhand by killing Queek Headtaker in battle.
- Grudge against Malekith: Avenge the betrayal of Snorri Whitebeard by killing Malekith in battle.
- Grudge of Vengeance: Caledor II is long dead, but many of his wrongs remain in the Book. Raze Vaul's Anvil in Caledor.
- Grudge of Fort Kreighof: The Elector Count of Ostermark has shortchanged the Dwarfs who built his fort by 2 1/2 pennies. Raze Essen. (Gives 2 gold)
- Grudge against Neferata: Neferata killed and razed the Dwarfs of Silver Pinnacle. Kill Neferata in battle.
- Grudge of The Silver Pinnacle: Neferata has stolen the Dwarf Hold of Silver Pinnacle. Occupy Silver Pinnacle.
- Grudge against the Lord of Undeath: Kill Krell in battle, assuming that he is eventually made a proper hero.
- Grudge against Grimgor Ironhide: Kill Grimgor Ironhide in battle.

I would revise them to be a bit more difficult, for instance instead of simply defeating the LLs in battle, you must actually destroy the faction. Sure you might not be able to achieve them because some other faction destroys them, but with relatively minor conditions and optional yet generous rewards, they can be a great way for Dwarf players to focus on them at the expense of other objectives.

Slayer_Yannir#8069

LordTorquemado said:

As said before, once again SFO proves to be the solution.

Mods are not a solution, they are a bandage.

Sultschiem#8734

Jycce said:

LordTorquemado said:

As said before, once again SFO proves to be the solution.

Yeah I agree but it's still sad that Dawi players have to rely on a mod to have a decent campaign (compared to TWW2 factions).

Lord_Distamorfin said:

Here's the list of grudges I made for my old rework thread.
- Grudge of Eight Peaks: Reclaim Karak Eight Peaks. (Gives option for immediate confederation with Belegar Ironhammer.)
- Grudge against the Warlord of Eight Peaks: Kill Skarsnik in battle.
- Grudge of Karak Azul: Destory Clan Mors. (Unlocks the Runic Armory of Karak Azul landmark)
- Grudge of Karag Durak: Avenge the grudge of Grimnir Halfhand by killing Queek Headtaker in battle.
- Grudge against Malekith: Avenge the betrayal of Snorri Whitebeard by killing Malekith in battle.
- Grudge of Vengeance: Caledor II is long dead, but many of his wrongs remain in the Book. Raze Vaul's Anvil in Caledor.
- Grudge of Fort Kreighof: The Elector Count of Ostermark has shortchanged the Dwarfs who built his fort by 2 1/2 pennies. Raze Essen. (Gives 2 gold)
- Grudge against Neferata: Neferata killed and razed the Dwarfs of Silver Pinnacle. Kill Neferata in battle.
- Grudge of The Silver Pinnacle: Neferata has stolen the Dwarf Hold of Silver Pinnacle. Occupy Silver Pinnacle.
- Grudge against the Lord of Undeath: Kill Krell in battle, assuming that he is eventually made a proper hero.
- Grudge against Grimgor Ironhide: Kill Grimgor Ironhide in battle.

Thanks for this. I was looking for Grudges against the Empire but couldn't find any (beginning a game by going after Ostermark could lead to an interesting playthrough).
It seems there is no grudges against Lizardmen in all the lore though.

There was a Grudge, that was caused by the Emperor (Not Franz, when Nuln was still the capital) refusing to aid the dwarves against Grom the Paunch.

Most grudges with the Empire-factions are either refusal of aid or screwing them out of something in a deal.

Lord_Distamorfin#1941

Jycce said:

LordTorquemado said:

As said before, once again SFO proves to be the solution.

Yeah I agree but it's still sad that Dawi players have to rely on a mod to have a decent campaign (compared to TWW2 factions).

Lord_Distamorfin said:

Here's the list of grudges I made for my old rework thread.
- Grudge of Eight Peaks: Reclaim Karak Eight Peaks. (Gives option for immediate confederation with Belegar Ironhammer.)
- Grudge against the Warlord of Eight Peaks: Kill Skarsnik in battle.
- Grudge of Karak Azul: Destory Clan Mors. (Unlocks the Runic Armory of Karak Azul landmark)
- Grudge of Karag Durak: Avenge the grudge of Grimnir Halfhand by killing Queek Headtaker in battle.
- Grudge against Malekith: Avenge the betrayal of Snorri Whitebeard by killing Malekith in battle.
- Grudge of Vengeance: Caledor II is long dead, but many of his wrongs remain in the Book. Raze Vaul's Anvil in Caledor.
- Grudge of Fort Kreighof: The Elector Count of Ostermark has shortchanged the Dwarfs who built his fort by 2 1/2 pennies. Raze Essen. (Gives 2 gold)
- Grudge against Neferata: Neferata killed and razed the Dwarfs of Silver Pinnacle. Kill Neferata in battle.
- Grudge of The Silver Pinnacle: Neferata has stolen the Dwarf Hold of Silver Pinnacle. Occupy Silver Pinnacle.
- Grudge against the Lord of Undeath: Kill Krell in battle, assuming that he is eventually made a proper hero.
- Grudge against Grimgor Ironhide: Kill Grimgor Ironhide in battle.

Thanks for this. I was looking for Grudges against the Empire but couldn't find any (beginning a game by going after Ostermark could lead to an interesting playthrough).
It seems there is no grudges against Lizardmen in all the lore though.

The Dwarfs scarcely know that the Lizardmen even exist. But if they were to ever find out about the Slann's little redecorating plan (read: shifting entire tectonic plates), that would probably be the single greatest grudge in the Dammaz Kron. Greater even than Malekith breaking his oath to Snorri Whitebeard.

MalalTheRenegade#5644

Lord_Distamorfin said:

Jycce said:

LordTorquemado said:

As said before, once again SFO proves to be the solution.

Yeah I agree but it's still sad that Dawi players have to rely on a mod to have a decent campaign (compared to TWW2 factions).

Lord_Distamorfin said:

Here's the list of grudges I made for my old rework thread.
- Grudge of Eight Peaks: Reclaim Karak Eight Peaks. (Gives option for immediate confederation with Belegar Ironhammer.)
- Grudge against the Warlord of Eight Peaks: Kill Skarsnik in battle.
- Grudge of Karak Azul: Destory Clan Mors. (Unlocks the Runic Armory of Karak Azul landmark)
- Grudge of Karag Durak: Avenge the grudge of Grimnir Halfhand by killing Queek Headtaker in battle.
- Grudge against Malekith: Avenge the betrayal of Snorri Whitebeard by killing Malekith in battle.
- Grudge of Vengeance: Caledor II is long dead, but many of his wrongs remain in the Book. Raze Vaul's Anvil in Caledor.
- Grudge of Fort Kreighof: The Elector Count of Ostermark has shortchanged the Dwarfs who built his fort by 2 1/2 pennies. Raze Essen. (Gives 2 gold)
- Grudge against Neferata: Neferata killed and razed the Dwarfs of Silver Pinnacle. Kill Neferata in battle.
- Grudge of The Silver Pinnacle: Neferata has stolen the Dwarf Hold of Silver Pinnacle. Occupy Silver Pinnacle.
- Grudge against the Lord of Undeath: Kill Krell in battle, assuming that he is eventually made a proper hero.
- Grudge against Grimgor Ironhide: Kill Grimgor Ironhide in battle.

Thanks for this. I was looking for Grudges against the Empire but couldn't find any (beginning a game by going after Ostermark could lead to an interesting playthrough).
It seems there is no grudges against Lizardmen in all the lore though.

The Dwarfs scarcely know that the Lizardmen even exist. But if they were to ever find out about the Slann's little redecorating plan (read: shifting entire tectonic plates), that would probably be the single greatest grudge in the Dammaz Kron. Greater even than Malekith breaking his oath to Snorri Whitebeard.

Thanks, never thought about that but I bet Dwarves wouldn't like to see their mountains crumble on them. Not sure it's possible to make a grudge out of it but at least I know how to roleplay a campaign Dwarfs vs Lizardmen now.