WE settlement idea. Friendly undercities.

2Tabz

Not sure if this has been suggested yet but I'd like to know whether people consider it likely or desirable.

One of the biggest issues the WE face is how to paint the map their colour given that they do not build and defend fortified settlements. I've heard a few suggestions on how to remedy this problem but haven't found any of them satisfactory.

There has been some speculation about how a new worldroots mechanic might serve this purpose. If the WE army could teleport to certain locations they could better position themselves to defend against threats on all sides of their empire. My problem with this is that it would need to be pretty OP in terms of cooldown and available destinations in order to be effective.

Here's my speculation: WE outposts could exist alongside allied settlements as a sort of positive undercity. They could otherwise function similarly to how they do now. With only one optional building slot and a small garrison. The small garrison could reinforce the allied garrison during a siege. Perhaps deploying outside of the gates or coming from the map's edges as if they had just come running from their forest outpost.

Thoughts?

LordSolarMach

There have been a lot of suggestions about giving various races some form of undercity, and honestly... I'm not a fan. I'd prefer if unique race mechanics stayed unique. (Yes, I know they're cribbed from Vampire Coast.)

//

My crazy thought was to just let the Wood Elves build normally in any region with Timber. But I'm sure CA will come up with something better.

Sir_Godspeed

Instead of undercity per settlement, having one per state/region/province (I forget the in-game name) could be interesting. Then you get bonuses depending on how many settlements in said state are either controlled by you our an ally.

2Tabz

Sir_Godspeed said:

Instead of undercity per settlement, having one per state/region/province (I forget the in-game name) could be interesting. Then you get bonuses depending on how many settlements in said state are either controlled by you our an ally.

An interesting idea.
Could be a good way to limit the stacking buffs of the current outposts.

I should add that I imagined this system replacing the current one but I suppose it wouldn't have to.

SeanJeanquoi

I really, really don't want them to just get an undercity reskin because it makes no sense for them as a faction.

The whole point of "undercities" and pirate coves is that its presumed the Skaven/VCoast have built tunnels and such under the city itself / they've connected to the criminal underbelly of the city and organized a hideout.

Wood Elves would never do this. They may visit Bretonnian and imperial settlements very rarely for whatever reason, but most of the time they're teleporting through the worldroots, darting through the dense forests far away from civilisation and/or trying to set up a new magical forest or create a hidden outpost.

The best way to represent them and make them interesting I'd say would still be to give them their own little forest settlements that they can occupy completely separately of the normal settlements you conquer.

These could be hidden from other factions until discovered but they'd be settlements in their own right that can be defended, fought over and destroyed if discovered.

The Vampire Counts, Greenskins and Beastmen could all also benefit from these kinds of settlements (though my biggest issue with that is the fact that all these factions need forest settlements to have an edge over the Ordertide...an edge which will be lost if they spend all their time fighting over the few forest settlements there are. I'd prefer they all got their own flavour of these hidden settlements for balance and uniqueness sake, but I digress).

However they're implemented, I'd still say this is the best course of action. The Wood Elves need a way to expand outside of conventional means and that way is not with Coves/Undercities. Vampire Coast and the Skaven still have to paint the map or defend what little territory they do hold and I really don't want the Wood Elves to have to go through all that.

SeanJeanquoi

Rather than a semi-passive Undercity with a garrison that supports the allies within that settlement and such, I'd much prefer something like this:

You have the Wood Elves forest settlements co-existing in the same region as the normal settlement, hidden somewhere from view.

The Wood Elves can expand the Worldroots to adjacent tiles to the Oak of ages from turn 1, slowly overtime extending their influence outward (It works like a building, so you pick an adjacent region and it takes x number of turns to extend the roots to that region)

Once you extend the worldroots to another region, you have some influence over it and if you also have a hidden forest settlement in that region you can capitalise on said influence by getting buffs to your forest settlements, being able to expand the garrisons etc.

Rather than having your garrison sit in the settlement like an Undercity would, your forest settlement counts as an external reinforcing army with the option to help coming up if you so choose when the settlement comes under attack (this plays into their ambivalent nature).

having it separate would also mean you don't need to worry if the main settlement is sacked, destroyed, etc and you don't have to compete with the Skaven and VCoast for Undercity slots. The Well being of your outpost and income isn't tied directly to the Lumberfoots settlements in the same way as Undercities are.

You could also have the option to destroy the mains settlements in the region yourself, and if you extended the Worldroots to that region, the razed settlement becomes "Overgrown", reclaimed by the forest that you extended to that region and no longer colonizable by normal factions unless they find and destroy your Forest settlement, thus destroying the Worldroots in that region.

This way, not only are the Wood Elves disconnected from the typical land disputes of the normal factions, they don't have to hitch their wagon to other factions in the same area, sapping from their income and being forced to protect them with their secondary garrisons, they're more ambivalent, more autonomous, more illusive and have more control over the map, with the ability to help or hinder the settlement of that region and the ability to stop others from colonizing and controlling that region entirely.

kasunrathnatunga

SeanJeanquoi said:

Rather than a semi-passive Undercity with a garrison that supports the allies within that settlement and such, I'd much prefer something like this:

You have the Wood Elves forest settlements co-existing in the same region as the normal settlement, hidden somewhere from view.

The Wood Elves can expand the Worldroots to adjacent tiles to the Oak of ages from turn 1, slowly overtime extending their influence outward (It works like a building, so you pick an adjacent region and it takes x number of turns to extend the roots to that region)

Once you extend the worldroots to another region, you have some influence over it and if you also have a hidden forest settlement in that region you can capitalise on said influence by getting buffs to your forest settlements, being able to expand the garrisons etc.

Rather than having your garrison sit in the settlement like an Undercity would, your forest settlement counts as an external reinforcing army with the option to help coming up if you so choose when the settlement comes under attack (this plays into their ambivalent nature).

having it separate would also mean you don't need to worry if the main settlement is sacked, destroyed, etc and you don't have to compete with the Skaven and VCoast for Undercity slots. The Well being of your outpost and income isn't tied directly to the Lumberfoots settlements in the same way as Undercities are.

You could also have the option to destroy the mains settlements in the region yourself, and if you extended the Worldroots to that region, the razed settlement becomes "Overgrown", reclaimed by the forest that you extended to that region and no longer colonizable by normal factions unless they find and destroy your Forest settlement, thus destroying the Worldroots in that region.

This way, not only are the Wood Elves disconnected from the typical land disputes of the normal factions, they don't have to hitch their wagon to other factions in the same area, sapping from their income and being forced to protect them with their secondary garrisons, they're more ambivalent, more autonomous, more illusive and have more control over the map, with the ability to help or hinder the settlement of that region and the ability to stop others from colonizing and controlling that region entirely.

This really good idea. And adding these will go beyond just WE , this may be a way to players could make their own forts and watch towers like they did in some of the older TW titles.

And a possible way to improve hordes.

All in really really good idea for the future of the game and to make the campaign map more diverse and vivid.

SeanJeanquoi

@kasunrathnatunga

damn you're so right I didn't even think of that!

CA could allow The VCounts, Beastmen, Wood Elves etc to have their own hidden settlements completely separate from one another if they brought back the fort system! So Wood Elves can build forest settlements (Forts) by moving an army there like in medieval 2, but they have to do so on a forest tile.

Vampires could do the same but in a different kind of specified location.

As for Greenskins, they could create their own fortresses and warcamps like they did in the lore, only they're low maintenance, not a source of Income and not hidden like the others. Imagine if every Greenskin army's raiding camp stance was actually a settlement you can plant down and use to fortify and gain a foothold in a new regions from (able to dart back to it and get really good replenishment and recruitment in foreign lands) then, you go back, pick it up and move on, leaving behind any fortifications you may have made to start anew.

It'd give every greenskin army a makeshift black ark that can be planted on the map like an old fort.

My only concern would be how the AI would handle these mechanics, if at all. I forget how Medieval's AI dealt with Forts and such. I'm sure it could be done but I think that'd be the biggest hurdle.

kasunrathnatunga

SeanJeanquoi said:

@kasunrathnatunga

damn you're so right I didn't even think of that!

CA could allow The VCounts, Beastmen, Wood Elves etc to have their own hidden settlements completely separate from one another if they brought back the fort system! So Wood Elves can build forest settlements (Forts) by moving an army there like in medieval 2, but they have to do so on a forest tile.

Vampires could do the same but in a different kind of specified location.

As for Greenskins, they could create their own fortresses and warcamps like they did in the lore, only they're low maintenance, not a source of Income and not hidden like the others. Imagine if every Greenskin army's raiding camp stance was actually a settlement you can plant down and use to fortify and gain a foothold in a new regions from (able to dart back to it and get really good replenishment and recruitment in foreign lands) then, you go back, pick it up and move on, leaving behind any fortifications you may have made to start anew.

It'd give every greenskin army a makeshift black ark that can be planted on the map like an old fort.

My only concern would be how the AI would handle these mechanics, if at all. I forget how Medieval's AI dealt with Forts and such. I'm sure it could be done but I think that'd be the biggest hurdle.

Yaaap, my thinking exactly. I honestly don't remember how they did in med 2 but i am pretty sure AI used it.
And i think they could make AI use it.
I doubt it will be issue since AI does actually use undercities.

And like you said it they put restrictions on what tiles could build what. It won't make AI go crazy.

I wonder why they took forts away in newer titles.

kasunrathnatunga

@SeanJeanquoi

It won't be just be limited to those races.

Empire could make watchtowers to gain tactical adavantges

Bretonnia could start making castles. Like in lore they did in border prince lands.

And dwarf could have their mountain outposts.


Honestly as long as they put a decent restrictions that prevent spaming these like a number per region. These would really spice the campaign map up.

And actually change the campaign map from playthrough to playthrough. Rather than looking at the same old map.

2Tabz

SeanJeanquoi said:

I really, really don't want them to just get an undercity reskin because it makes no sense for them as a faction.

The whole point of "undercities" and pirate coves is that its presumed the Skaven/VCoast have built tunnels and such under the city itself / they've connected to the criminal underbelly of the city and organized a hideout.

Wood Elves would never do this. They may visit Bretonnian and imperial settlements very rarely for whatever reason, but most of the time they're teleporting through the worldroots, darting through the dense forests far away from civilisation and/or trying to set up a new magical forest or create a hidden outpost.

The best way to represent them and make them interesting I'd say would still be to give them their own little forest settlements that they can occupy completely separately of the normal settlements you conquer.

These could be hidden from other factions until discovered but they'd be settlements in their own right that can be defended, fought over and destroyed if discovered.

The Vampire Counts, Greenskins and Beastmen could all also benefit from these kinds of settlements (though my biggest issue with that is the fact that all these factions need forest settlements to have an edge over the Ordertide...an edge which will be lost if they spend all their time fighting over the few forest settlements there are. I'd prefer they all got their own flavour of these hidden settlements for balance and uniqueness sake, but I digress).

However they're implemented, I'd still say this is the best course of action. The Wood Elves need a way to expand outside of conventional means and that way is not with Coves/Undercities. Vampire Coast and the Skaven still have to paint the map or defend what little territory they do hold and I really don't want the Wood Elves to have to go through all that.

It would be nice to have an entirely new system, though I'm pessimistic about the odds given CA's track record of cutting corners in this game.

SaurianDruid

The wood elves should not be attempting to paint the map their color. Aggressive expansionism and living outside their forest home runs completely counter to their faction identity.

They need mechanics that make building tall fun and engaging, not mechanics that force them to leave Athel Loren behind as they conquer the world.

Pico0

SaurianDruid said:

The wood elves should not be attempting to paint the map their color. Aggressive expansionism and living outside their forest home runs completely counter to their faction identity.

They need mechanics that make building tall fun and engaging, not mechanics that force them to leave Athel Loren behind as they conquer the world.

Careful with that wish, we have some on the forum that will go "lol this is fine" or "you're a just a bunch of kids if you don't like their mechanics". Even though this is perfectly reasonnable to want some lore friendly mechanics.

2Tabz

SaurianDruid said:

The wood elves should not be attempting to paint the map their color. Aggressive expansionism and living outside their forest home runs completely counter to their faction identity.

They need mechanics that make building tall fun and engaging, not mechanics that force them to leave Athel Loren behind as they conquer the world.

I figured that this might allow them to do it vicariously through allies.