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Daydreaming about Guandu DLC. Why BROTHERHOOD could be a good them for the DLC.

Ostubaf_CattoOstubaf_Catto Registered Users Posts: 138
After the announcement of long-awaited Nanman DLC, Wild Furious, and the hype around it start to start clam down a bit, I'm once again back for more daydreaming content for TW:3K. This time I want to talk about the theme for Guandu DLC. For us 3K fans, we might notice that in every Chapter Pack's trailer, name and other stuff, there will be a core theme for each DLC to tie all the narrative of every major faction together into one package and CA has done a wonderful to depict the theme of each chapter through trailer's cinematography, narration and music.
  • In Eight Princes, the theme is an ambition that causes quarrel and betrayal within the family.
  • For Mandate of Heaven, it is about when everything is at its bottom, the hero will restore the righteous to the land. the struggle between the crumbling old way and hopes for the new way.
  • A World Betrayed told the story of the new generation of warlords coming out from their father's shadow and forming a legacy of their own in this land of chaos and this ties all Cao Cao, Liu Bei, Sun Ce and Lü Bu together.

So what should be the theme for Guandu DLC?

I have spoken about this topic with my friends in Serious Trivia discord and because of that I want to share our thought in this matter (Thank you, Gaz for allowing me to write a post about this) and in the end our answer is BROTHERHOOD.

How can "Brotherhood" tie the narrative of Guandu DLC?

Many of you might wonder how the theme of "Brotherhood" fit with the Guandu narrative. Should not we focus around Yuan Shao's succession crisis and Cao Cao's ambition of reuniting China? Yes, that would be sufficient to tie narrative of Cao Cao and Yuan Shao but with Brotherhood, we can tie the major factions (Yuan Shao, Wei, Wu, Shu) with Guandu in one go. By exploring the relationship of different characters, we will be able to see that brotherly bond can be a strong theme.

The Broken Brotherhood: the end of an old friendship - Cao Cao and Yuan Shao.


Cao Cao and Yuan Shao started since they were young. They served Han with loyalty, and when the tyrant Dong Zhuo rose to power, they fight the tyranny side by side. However, on one faithful day at Battle of Xingyang, their relationship went sour. Because of that, they chose on a different path. However, their ambition now led them to meet again on the battlefield. An old friend turns enemy. This is the Broken Brotherhood.

The Untrusting Brotherhood: when brothers turn against each other - Yuan Tan, Yuan Xi and Yuan Shang.


Though they shared the same bloodline, Yuan Tan, Yuan Xi and Yuan Shang seemed to be unable to cooperate. These 3 brothers all had a hidden ambition of their own. This might be because of the Yuan Shao's favouritism that made these 3 brothers be wary of each other or maybe this was a curse of Yuan family that someday will doom this bloodline. Brothers turn against each other. This is the Untrusting Brotherhood.

The Lasting Brotherhood: even death cannot break the brotherly bond - Sun Quan, Sun Ce and Zhou Yu.


Sun Ce had died. Sun Clan once again lost its leader. As a brother of the little conqueror, Sun Quan must carry on the torch. However, young and naive Sun Quan might not be able to bear the burden of the legacy that his brother passed to him. Zhou Yu, the sworn brother of Sun Ce, must guide young Sun Quan to his greatness for someday Sun Quan can realise his brother ambition. That was what Zhou Yu promised Sun Ce. The brotherly bond that goes beyond death is the Lasting Brotherhood.

The Eternal Brotherhood: the incorruptible bond that echoes throughout the land - Liu Bei, Guan Yu and Zhang Fei.


It had been 16 years since the Oath of the Peach Garden, The three brothers were isolated in this world of chaos. Unbeknownst to them, heaven had a plan for them. Guan Yu now served under Cao Cao. Liu Bei was with Yuan Shao. Zhang Fei wandered the land to seek hideout. Three departed brothers only wished that someday they would reunite once again. No matter how far, no matter how long. They will meet again. The bond that can't be broken by distance and time. This is the Eternal Brotherhood.

In Conclusion

As you can see "Brotherhood" can be a very powerful theme to play around with this DLC. All the drama is there. It ties every major character with the same drive.

I do not say that this is the only theme to make the DLC but since CA love to pull something unexpected from ROTK and makes it into the main theme in AWB, I would love to see CA do it again. This is just my interpretation of the Guandu.

I really wish you enjoy our idea. I would love to read your command and opinion. Thank you for reading. See you next post.
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Comments

  • LaindeshLaindesh Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,062
    Depending on when it starts you could toss in Yuan Shu in there too.
  • LaindeshLaindesh Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,062
    I read this before it vanished for a bit. But: You forgot Yuan Shu :D

    His rivalry with Yuan Shao is known and he didnt perish that long before guandu :)

    I assume guan du chapter pack will take place a year or two before guan du itself with cao cao and yuan shao hating each other :x
  • KrunchKrunch Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,344
    Yuan Shu really shouldn't feature. He dies in 197, while I expect the chapter pack will start probably during the battle itself.
  • LaindeshLaindesh Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,062
    Depending on when it starts you could toss in Yuan Shu in there too.
    Krunch said:

    Yuan Shu really shouldn't feature. He dies in 197, while I expect the chapter pack will start probably during the battle itself.

    I thought he died in 199 or so, if so then he can be skipped ^^
  • KrunchKrunch Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,344
    edited August 23
    You are right actually, I just checked. He claimed the Zhong Emperorship in 197, but he died in 199. That said, I still think he will be dead in the Guandu chapter pack. If they make it so Yuan Shu is still alive in this chapter pack, that would mean they would have to set it before the battle of Xiapi, and I don't think they would do that as its already kind of covered by the last chapter pack.
  • kk107kk107 Registered Users Posts: 104
    Yuan shu died in 199 he declared himself emperor in 197
  • LaindeshLaindesh Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,062
    edited August 23
    "The Battle of Guandu was fought between the warlords Cao Cao and Yuan Shao in 200 CE in the late Eastern Han dynasty."

    Uh that might be difficult. Not sure when the chapter should start, but i think 198 with several events unfolding as the 2 years go by.

    For Yuan Shao it would be to settle gongsun zan once and for all.

    For Cao Cao it would be to settle Yuan Shu and Lu Bu\Liu Bei depending on who occupy Xiapi at that point of history.

    Liu Bei would have events eventually settling him in Nanyang (the jade mine) and becoming a vassal of Liu Biao.

    There should also be some conflict between Yan Shu and Yuan Shao. I'¨d like Shu to be playable with a "change history" theme.
  • kk107kk107 Registered Users Posts: 104
    edited August 23
    Thinking they start on or after 199
    Since they said lubu wouldn't be a playable faction again
    Maybe cao cao starts with the siege of xiapi and the player can choose wheater or not to execute lubu and ai always chooses to execute
  • LaindeshLaindesh Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,062
    kk107 said:

    Thinking they start on or after 199
    Since they said lubu wouldn't be a playable faction again
    Maybe cao cao starts with the siege of xiapi and the player can choose wheater or not to execute lubu and ai always chooses to execute

    *scratches head* Not playable doesnt mean he can't be on the map.
    Xiapi (Xu province) was briefly occupied by Liu Bei again after the death of Yuan Shu, but he was chased out and joined Yuan Shao while guan yu temporarily joined cao cao and Zhang fei went gods knows where.

    200 is such a iffy chapter pack when it comes to starting date.
  • KrunchKrunch Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,344
    Why? What is wrong with starting in 200?
  • ShevaTsarShevaTsar Registered Users Posts: 321
    edited August 23
    Guan Du starting date is gonna be a bit problematic for me. I seriously don't want to see Sun Ce again in another starting date, what's great about him is how intense and short his life was. AWB was his time.
    Maybe they could implement the event of him dying no matter what (played by AI or human player) in 200 if we start with Guan Du chapter pack.

    That would trigger the brotherhood link you are talking about in this thread.
    Every person on the street knows what is in Sima Zhao's mind
  • KrunchKrunch Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,344
    IMO in the Guandu start he should die no matter what. That's a given IMO. Makes no sense for him to still be playable.
  • LaindeshLaindesh Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,062
    Krunch said:

    Why? What is wrong with starting in 200?

    Maybe im just overthinking it.

    Too early and Lu Bu is still there (i guess the campaign could start with finishing him off for cao cao).
    Too late and we jump straight into the battle of Guan du with no build up. Also Liu Bei wont be anywhere as a playable faction.

  • KrunchKrunch Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,344
    Liu Bei can just be moved to Jing province a bit earlier than he should be IMO. And IMO starting it off straight with Guandu is fine. IMO the main content of the Guandu chapter pack should be the stuff that happens in its aftermath, as Cao Cao moves to take the north, the Yuan heirs bicker amongst themselves, and the southern warlords consolidate and prepare themselves. Frankly there doesn't need to be a third start where it is Yuan Shao vs Gongsun Zan and Cao Cao vs Liu Bei, that is already something that occurs early on in two starts.
  • JerroserJerroser Registered Users Posts: 405
    edited August 23
    Krunch said:

    Liu Bei can just be moved to Jing province a bit earlier than he should be IMO. And IMO starting it off straight with Guandu is fine. IMO the main content of the Guandu chapter pack should be the stuff that happens in its aftermath, as Cao Cao moves to take the north, the Yuan heirs bicker amongst themselves, and the southern warlords consolidate and prepare themselves. Frankly there doesn't need to be a third start where it is Yuan Shao vs Gongsun Zan and Cao Cao vs Liu Bei, that is already something that occurs early on in two starts.

    Perhaps his start is the Guandu chapter pack could work in a similar way to Lu Bu's in AWB, where you hold Xiapi but come under attack from Cao Cao very quickly. So you are given several dilemmas which basically equate it follow the story and run. Potentially being given a province in Liu Biao's territory and stick it out against Cao Cao and see if you can actually fend him off. Although perhaps this time they should give you the option to have your main army disband and be redeployed in said territory rather than needing so somehow force your way through Cao Cao's lands to get there and to find some why to keep his faction and characters together when this happens.
  • MasterSlayeXMasterSlayeX Registered Users Posts: 282
    Yuan Shu should not be a playable faction but he could actually still be a factor depending on when we start Guan du . If it took place in 198 . 1 year before the fall of lu bus forces a ton of extra dilemma could be added .

    Yuan shaos being focusing on taking out gongsun zan on behalf of Liu yus son who wants revenge for what gongsun did or do you go hunting for your half brother yuan Shu who is still alive to retrieve his aid and the imperial seal (the what if in this case ) of course this means yuan Shao would have the imperial seal but it would also hit him hard diplomatically considering Cao cao has the emperor exspecally if he was to use it himself to declare himself emperor at that stage

    Cao Caos being based on his actions against lu bu at 199 . Does he execute lu bu or does he recruit him into his faction . Of course recruiting him would don a huge penalty of friendship with him and Liu bei, Guan Yu , zhang fei and temporary issues with his own officers who didn’t believed in recruiting lu bu and thus also not allowing Cao cao to have Guan Yu for Guan du but instread lu bu for Guan du . He also would have to worry about his disloyalty

    Zhang Xiu could also make it as a playable faction . 1 year ago he did the deed of killing Cao caos bodyguard and Cao ang so he and Cao cao are on very bad terms . He would start as Liu biaos Ally but his advisor jia Xu eventually tells him he will need to surrender to Cao cao . This is where the dilemma kicks in . Does he break his alliance with Liu biao and surrende to Cao cao thus becoming a vassel state under Cao cao and mending his relationship with. Cao?Or does he choose to continue his fight against him and take advantage of Guan du to back attack Cao cao or eventually feel the wrath of his army?
    As for a faction mechanic I think considering he pulled wan castle off pretty well he should get an improved spy system making him better at plotting assassinations or banquet assassinations or having better success at changing enemy faction leaders and getting intel and such . Prehaps even having hu che er a generic with a unique skill to make him a lot better as a spy? And is a spy who is willing to keep spying for you (idk much about the spying system tbh so if any of that already happens then ignore that part but basically a faction who uses shady spying and such more could help set them apart )

    The 3 yuan brothers all would work on a new mechanic to gain favor with daddy Shao and will all start as a vassel under their father . Yuan tan though battle , yuan xi though construction of certain buildings and more political issues and yuan shang.... he gained it naturally and from decisions between 198 AD and his fathers death in 202 . In 202 AD when yuan Shao dies of sickness a new heir will be picked . If any of the sons manage to fully fill their bar max they will become The ruler and own all the land (the other 2 automatically confederated) and accepted as the ruler however and in most cases only 1 will become the ruler with the other 2 disagreeing and thus the civil war in shaos land between his own brothers starts . The better you do the more generals , land such you will pick up in 202 ad . It’s kind of like a 6 years sun ce scenario for all of them . Yuan shang is the easiest to achieve this , yuan tan the moderate brother and yuan xi is the hardest . All 3 would be playable Along with zhang Xiu making it up to the same amount of new playable lords that are new as the Nanman pack

    I hope though before they do Guan du they do the northern tribes though as the wuhuan are actually an important ally for Yuan Shao and his sons during this time
  • AoishiroAoishiro Registered Users Posts: 121
    I think Liu Bei will be playable as a faction holding Xu Province after Yuan Shu's death with an alliance between him and Yuan SHao.
  • RocketlegionRocketlegion Member Registered Users Posts: 671
    I cannot wait for a possible Guan du expansion/chapter pack, Yuan Shao needs some unique officers already.
  • ScyvhScyvh Registered Users Posts: 28
    I don't really see what Guandu would bring more than fleshing out Yuan Shao (which does need to happen). Maybe the suggestion above, to combine fleshing out Yuan Shao with the wuhuan, makes much more sense.
  • Vin362Vin362 Registered Users Posts: 329
    edited September 24
    Well depending on the start date we could have Sun Quan to give Wu a more passive playstyle, Yuan Shao could probably get his sons and Yan Liang and Wen Chou as unique officers (I would prefer Zhang He since he'll be around longer) maybe a new unit or two.

    Other factions could be Han Sui could become a playable faction and have a hit and run playstyle with a few more options for Qiang units, Zhang Xiu could potentially be the first faction to specialize in night battles as a reference to when he attacked Cao Cao. I know this is wishful thinking and in the end it is up to CA on what they do next.
    Post edited by Vin362 on
    Supporter of Shu-Han, Waiting for a Three Kingdoms start date for TW3K
  • RocketlegionRocketlegion Member Registered Users Posts: 671
    I would say with a Guan Du start other than Yuan Shao you could flesh out a number of different factions. Could add unique officers to Ma Teng, Liu Biao, possibly also add Liu Zhang as a FLC lord.
  • LaindeshLaindesh Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,062
    Scyvh said:

    I don't really see what Guandu would bring more than fleshing out Yuan Shao (which does need to happen). Maybe the suggestion above, to combine fleshing out Yuan Shao with the wuhuan, makes much more sense.

    Chapter packs is basically that, they bring free character updates. Im not the biggest fan of chapter packs, but sometimes a change of scenarios is nice.

    The best example of this is MoH which was a very good chapter pack (despite its bugs).

    AWB was less so. Sure you had Lu Bu and Sun Ce, but it wasnt anything special outside of those two (and yes i tried ma teng, liu bei, cao cao and zheng jiang in additon to Ce and Bu). I've never liked a scenario with less, but bigger factions. This is also why i think guandu should really be the last chapter pack and i hope they instead imrpove the 190 campaign to be as good as can be.

    Then again i'd take 3 more chapter packs if it means those 3 packs or nothing at all. ;)

  • united84united84 Registered Users Posts: 815
    Perhaps to make Cao Cao's northern expedition DLC unique and worth the money is to add exclusive mechanic to that chapter pack and add some UI feature exclusively to that chapter pack.

    I have always felt some main faction's mechanic like Liu Bei and Yuan Shao to be Super underwhelming and perhaps the main reason why people stop playing this game especially those old skool rotk gamers. I hope CA adds more grandeur (mechanic or UI wise) to Yuan Shao in the northern expansion pack and of course the unique skins for his 2 lieutenants.
  • MasterSlayeXMasterSlayeX Registered Users Posts: 282
    Guan du would probably flesh yuan shao mainly but it depends heavily on who’s added . Zhang he would go from han fu to yuan Shao to Cao cao so I really hope he is added as I feel of all the officers would be the most important to make unique . Wen chou and yan liang are cool and all but liturally they die at the beginning so I think if anything who do more after yuan shaos death are more important including

    Yuan Shao- Zhang He
    Yuan Tan- Xin Pi
    Yuan Xi - Zhen Ji
    Yuan Shang - Shen Pei

    the reason I stated a lot of these people are as followed

    Zhang He , Xin Pi and Zhen Ji all eventually go to wei and thus would have more use also in later scenarios . Shen Pei is just because he like zhang he served han fu fleshing out a possible han fu faction in 190 but also he is pretty much the closest thing I feel to yuan Shao having a strategist as well as being yuans shangs strategist . It gives a nice round of chars for han fu , yuan Shao and Cao cao which then leaves Zhang Xiu as a possible warlord for that scenario as would huang zu (203 and 208 are the last 2 real fights for huang zu) it’s an important time for wu too in a way as they fight huang zu and will lose ling cao however they will gain Gan Ning in the process
  • Misaka_ComplexMisaka_Complex Registered Users Posts: 2,870
    It depends on the starting date, but if they start in like 198 it would be interesting if there was the option for Daddy Shao to save Yuan Shu, so Yuan Shu could play a role in the power struggle between the Yuan sons.
  • Bright_EyesBright_Eyes Registered Users Posts: 485
    I think they should just start the DLC in 200 AD. I don't think it's necessary to have build up, since they could have the real conflict not be Guandu itself but turn into Cao Cao dealing with Yuan Tan, Yuan Xi and Yuan Shao

    If they start in 200 AD they can start the scenario with Sun Quan and these chapter packs need to add new playable factions.
  • LabriaLabria Registered Users Posts: 1,263
    194 start after death of Tao Qian and Dong Zhuo. I expect something similar for Guandu chapter. I doubt characters like Lu Bu, Sun Ce, Yuan Shu and Gongsun Zan will be in next chapter. Most likely, we will their death in trailer and preparation for Guandu. No more small warlords on the north. Main focus of this chapter will be Cao Cao vs Yuan Shao(and his sons after his death).

    I think next chapter start just before Guan Yu kill two main Yuan Shao's generals.

    I expect these new playable factions in Guandu chapter:
    1. Yuan Xi and Yuan Tan. Both will start as Yuan Shao's vassals factions. Yuan Shang will start in Yuan Shao faction as his heir. I expect big civil war between Yuan Shao's sons after father death.
    2. Guan Yu. He will start as Cao Cao's vassal faction. He should have option to stay with Cao Cao or come back to Liu Bei. I expect famous story about Pass Five Gates and Kill Six Generals in this chapter.
    3. Sun Quan. Next leader of Wu after Sun Ce death. If you make bad choice, you can start civil war in Wu.
    4. Zhang Xiu. Do you surrender to Cao Cao or not?
    Gao Gan is nephew of Yuan Shao and small warlord. If next chapter will have big focus to Yuan Shao. I expect him as FLC. He has own faction in 190 and he will be Yuan Shao's vassal faction in 194 and 200.
    Also, I think most of new characters will be for Yuan Shao faction(and his sons).
    Dwarfs need Slayer Lord pack: https://imgur.com/x74HxxU
    Liu Chong and He Yi should be playable in 194.
  • Misaka_ComplexMisaka_Complex Registered Users Posts: 2,870
    edited August 24

    I think they should just start the DLC in 200 AD. I don't think it's necessary to have build up, since they could have the real conflict not be Guandu itself but turn into Cao Cao dealing with Yuan Tan, Yuan Xi and Yuan Shao

    If they start in 200 AD they can start the scenario with Sun Quan and these chapter packs need to add new playable factions.

    Well if they are gonna start in 200 they should start before the battle of Boma otherwise Yan Liang would be dead. I still think that they should start around 198 to include the potential of Yuan Shu and give everyone some times to build up, with events leading up to the inevitable battle of Guan Du with tensions rising between Daddy Shao and Cao Cao. Starting in 198 also gives Gongsun Zan a chance to fight back (or become Daddy Shao's dog since its this game lol).
    Labria said:

    Guan Yu. He will start as Cao Cao's vassal faction. He should have option to stay with Cao Cao or come back to Liu Bei..

    Guan Yu never had his own vassal faction, he was with Cao Cao the entire time before he left to rejoin Liu Bei. Guan Yu should be a general under Cao Cao's faction with the option of staying with Cao Cao permanently. Guan Yu also never owned any territory while under Cao Cao so I don't see how he is going to become Cao Cao's vassal faction.
    Labria said:

    I expect famous story about Pass Five Gates and Kill Six Generals in this chapter.

    As much as I want that too, I don't think the game has those 5 gates so it would be very hard to implement.
  • LabriaLabria Registered Users Posts: 1,263


    Guan Yu never had his own vassal faction, he was with Cao Cao the entire time before he left to rejoin Liu Bei. Guan Yu should be a general under Cao Cao's faction with the option of staying with Cao Cao permanently. Guan Yu also never owned any territory while under Cao Cao so I don't see how he is going to become Cao Cao's vassal faction.

    I mean playable horde faction without own land like a few characters in 182 or Sun Ce in 194.


    As much as I want that too, I don't think the game has those 5 gates so it would be very hard to implement.

    CA can add more gates in the future. B)
    Dwarfs need Slayer Lord pack: https://imgur.com/x74HxxU
    Liu Chong and He Yi should be playable in 194.
  • KrunchKrunch Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,344
    Another start with Yuan Shu and Gongsun Zan really isn't necessary. Starting it after the death of Yuan Shu is best. That can even be an event as you load in the game as Cao Cao or any of the Yuan's, basically starting off with "Yuan Shu has died, and Cao Cao and Yuan Shao now look to each other for new conquests".

    As for FLC, Gao Gan is possible but IMO he could also be part of the DLC. He isn't exactly an exciting character, however he does fit well in the game and makes sense as a character, plus its nice to have more and more characters you interact with in diplomacy and battle be made unique. While depending on when we start Zhang Yang would be dead, I do think Zhang Yang could fit as a FLC lord. Not exactly an exciting character again, but once again someone who did some important stuff, lasted for a while and was importantly around in 190. Plus again it'd be nice to see him be unique on the map(though to be honest, since Vanguard generic Generals leading factions are so rare, I do think he is already somewhat unique in that regard, I do remember that armor of his that he wears quite well).
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