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Medusa Analysis & Changes

vizareshvizaresh Registered Users Posts: 225
edited August 2022 in Warhammer Battle Feedback
Hello guys, made this video after comparing and analyzing Medusa stats, abilities, and performance with the similar units and came up with some suggestions that might help this unit better/more competitive:



Video summary:

1. cannot shoot over infantry, as a result, it needs constant microing and repositioning to be able to use its ranged attack.
2. gets staggered and gets knocked down by monsters and artillery fire constantly.
3. Ancient salamander is better in every way and is still cheaper.

Changes Proposed:

being able to shoot over or through infantry if possible
if not:

1. fixing the constant staggering problem.
2. Higher move speed, turn rate, and mass.







Post edited by CA_Will#2514 on
«1

Comments

  • Uagrim#4644Uagrim#4644 Registered Users Posts: 2,097
    The changes sound good. Seeing the medusan always stagger while fighting the salamander makes the issue pretty clear.

    The price difference to the ancient salamander is 50 gold so it winning the ranged duel is fine I think (since the medusan has more explosive damage with a higher radius.) But in melee the medusan should come out on top.
  • yst#1879yst#1879 Registered Users Posts: 9,999
    edited August 2020
    Not good enough, it will literally has 0 impact for the unit as a whole in the bigger picture. Ancient salamander itself is a garbage tier unit, why would any1 even wants medusa to follow that path. Both r 2 entirely different unit.

    Medusa has frikking more than +50% hp than salamander, where they can tank cannon and ap significantly more. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever why medusa damage should even be anywhere near ancient sal. Medusa range is near instant, insanely accurate and impossible to dodge. Also a slower and more melee oriented given the obvious shorter range.

    Now, both r trash unit. So In order for medusa to even be remotely useful, prolly need a mix of everything. Doesnt seem to be completely 100% melee or missile oriented.

    +10 armor
    +4 att
    +4 def

    +15 missile dmg
    +30 missile ap dmg

    Not sure what else there is, its only a $1300 unit. Like really expecting them to work anything more is just unrealistic.
    She is wielding a spear, so I suppose thers something to be done with that, not that more anti large should be tossed around bur this is medusa, prolly needs it.

    That staggering is actually a good catch, not that we should be encouraged to play with that kind of numbers, medusa has really low # on those, its like 20 reaction 20 interupts. Vargulf goes on 45 45. So it is true they need a huge increase in those, best is to match vargulf

    Needs a more solid rework that some minor stat changes, easily the worst unit in the roster
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  • outrage4outrage4 master engineerRegistered Users Posts: 436
    I don't think this struggles with mass at all but it sure does get stun locked all the time. Something like actually making missiles AP (because currently they are not) would be fine.

    Or you could make it some sort of single entity Sepulchral Stalker giving it AL, CDVL and making misiles more low entity units focused. Sepulchral Stalkers missile attack used to be infantry focused but it was changed not that long ago.
  • #501075#501075 Registered Users Posts: 143
    The Medusa shouldn’t really be compared to the ancient sally, they have different roles in different armies.

    The Medusa does its job very well. It will delete whole units of chaff or archers with 2-3 shots. It’s primarily held back by the fact that it requires a straight line of sight. I don’t think you can buff other stats without reducing how much damage and splash it’s projectiles do. That being said, given its limitations I wouldn’t mind a 100-200 cost decrease to make it less of a center piece monster and more of a support monster.
  • The_real_FAUST#6885The_real_FAUST#6885 Registered Users Posts: 2,107
    Her stagger and physics need a rework to be honest
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 7,031
    I would like her to have more range, say 150m, then scourge runners could lose a little range, to say 125 metres.
    Don't fear the knockdown. Control it. Embrace it. Love it! :smile:
  • Noob_for_Life#5674Noob_for_Life#5674 Registered Users Posts: 511

    I would like her to have more range, say 150m, then scourge runners could lose a little range, to say 125 metres.

    That's to much just fix her physics to make her a better fighter then see if need more buffs from there.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 7,031
    Eh, I mean from 125m up to 150m, you did get that right? That's +25 metres, not +25 kilometers.

    It would give the less versatile medusa more range and the much more versatile scourgerunner chariot less range. Would make sense to me.
    Don't fear the knockdown. Control it. Embrace it. Love it! :smile:
  • #501075#501075 Registered Users Posts: 143
    Range is the least of its worries. Darkshards have 125 range and they perform their role fine. The Medusa can almost be thought of as the counterpart to darkshards. Darkshards can be an answer to heavy cav and monsters, whereas the Medusa can be an answer to chaff and archers.
  • vizareshvizaresh Registered Users Posts: 225
    Green0 said:

    I would like her to have more range, say 150m, then scourge runners could lose a little range, to say 125 metres.

    pls no, DE don't need more kite tools for 15+ minute games.

    If anything, all AP missiles in the game need a cost up since currently units like Waywatchers and Dark Riders are picked vs any faction regardless of how much armor they bring... clearly a sign of AP on missiles being too strong/AP missile units having too much ammo.

    Medusas could be the centerpiece of a kite army by parking it in front and then every faction that goes vs DE needs to deal with its armor and massive HP and it not losing effectiveness since it's a SEM. Aka DE win every time the skirmish game.

    30 armor with no missile resist is not a tanky unit.
    Green0 said:

    important side note, Medusas also kill missile cav models while being resilient to missile cav themselves. Excellent tanking unit not aure I am fond of buffs.

    they are not resilient to missile cav, or other range units.

    killing 1-3 low armored range cav with one shot by one of your 18 ammo in not cost-effective trade.

    from what I understand, you think medusa is fine and does not any changes, am I right?

  • vizareshvizaresh Registered Users Posts: 225
    edited August 2020

    The Medusa shouldn’t really be compared to the ancient sally, they have different roles in different armies.

    The Medusa does its job very well. It will delete whole units of chaff or archers with 2-3 shots. It’s primarily held back by the fact that it requires a straight line of sight. I don’t think you can buff other stats without reducing how much damage and splash it’s projectiles do. That being said, given its limitations I wouldn’t mind a 100-200 cost decrease to make it less of a center piece monster and more of a support monster.



    they are nearly identical. ancient sally destroys infantry just as well and does everything else medusa does better.
  • vizareshvizaresh Registered Users Posts: 225
    edited August 2020
    Double post
  • Loupi#8512Loupi#8512 Registered Users Posts: 3,779
    Green0 said:

    I would like her to have more range, say 150m, then scourge runners could lose a little range, to say 125 metres.

    pls no, DE don't need more kite tools for 15+ minute games.

    If anything, all AP missiles in the game need a cost up since currently units like Waywatchers and Dark Riders are picked vs any faction regardless of how much armor they bring... clearly a sign of AP on missiles being too strong/AP missile units having too much ammo.

    Medusas could be the centerpiece of a kite army by parking it in front and then every faction that goes vs DE needs to deal with its armor and massive HP and it not losing effectiveness since it's a SEM. Aka DE win every time the skirmish game.
    its armour?


  • Energyzed#6772Energyzed#6772 Registered Users Posts: 490
    Agree that medusa needs some buffs, but your comparison to ancient sally as if it suddenly the last one was god tier...
    Anyways, i also think the main problem with medusa is how much it gets stunlocked on melee. That should get fixed. I also think that maybe it could get charge defense vs large, wont be gamechanging but surelly helpfull.
  • yst#1879yst#1879 Registered Users Posts: 9,999
    edited August 2020
    + poison melee
    + Poison missile

    What r they exactly in tabletop anyway?
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  • Loupi#8512Loupi#8512 Registered Users Posts: 3,779
    Green0 said:

    Loupi_ said:

    Green0 said:

    I would like her to have more range, say 150m, then scourge runners could lose a little range, to say 125 metres.

    pls no, DE don't need more kite tools for 15+ minute games.

    If anything, all AP missiles in the game need a cost up since currently units like Waywatchers and Dark Riders are picked vs any faction regardless of how much armor they bring... clearly a sign of AP on missiles being too strong/AP missile units having too much ammo.

    Medusas could be the centerpiece of a kite army by parking it in front and then every faction that goes vs DE needs to deal with its armor and massive HP and it not losing effectiveness since it's a SEM. Aka DE win every time the skirmish game.
    its armour?
    it's problem is the melee let's not kid ourselves. It's ranged damage is rly rly good.
    but what are you talking about its armour being a problem to deal with? is 30 too high??


  • Dustin_Dustin_ Registered Users Posts: 59
    This unit has been useless since its release. the biggest issue is that its line of sight is always obstructed. I think an increase in range would be helpful so it can more easily throw over your front line.
  • Loupi#8512Loupi#8512 Registered Users Posts: 3,779
    Green0 said:

    Loupi_ said:

    Green0 said:

    Loupi_ said:

    Green0 said:

    I would like her to have more range, say 150m, then scourge runners could lose a little range, to say 125 metres.

    pls no, DE don't need more kite tools for 15+ minute games.

    If anything, all AP missiles in the game need a cost up since currently units like Waywatchers and Dark Riders are picked vs any faction regardless of how much armor they bring... clearly a sign of AP on missiles being too strong/AP missile units having too much ammo.

    Medusas could be the centerpiece of a kite army by parking it in front and then every faction that goes vs DE needs to deal with its armor and massive HP and it not losing effectiveness since it's a SEM. Aka DE win every time the skirmish game.
    its armour?
    it's problem is the melee let's not kid ourselves. It's ranged damage is rly rly good.
    but what are you talking about its armour being a problem to deal with? is 30 too high??
    it's not only the armor, it's a combination of armor, it being a SEM, the OK HP pool and it being able to dodge that make it an effective scouting/vanguard unit.

    You could trade 85% of its HP for all ammo of enemy skirmishers and still be ahead.
    no im still confused how having 30 armour is even part of any problem you see here


  • vizareshvizaresh Registered Users Posts: 225
    edited August 2020
    I'm pretty sure green has not watched the video and he thinks as long as medusa is useless against HE, it's a fine unit.
    ancient sally with 50% less health wins against medusa, in range and melee duel.
    Energyzed said:

    Agree that medusa needs some buffs, but your comparison to ancient sally as if it suddenly the last one was god tier...
    Anyways, i also think the main problem with medusa is how much it gets stunlocked on melee. That should get fixed. I also think that maybe it could get charge defense vs large, wont be gamechanging but surelly helpfull.

    compared to medusa ancient sally is god tier, as it can be useful from behind the terrain and friendly enemies, has faster movement speed and turn rate. you don't need to move it behind your mainline so it can do damage. it can barely dodge artillery shots and does not get stun locked all the time.

    granted, compared to medusa a lot of units are god tier.
    Post edited by vizaresh on
  • WitchbladeWitchblade Registered Users Posts: 1,007
    Or just -200 gold. They really need more knockback resistance though as you said. It shouldn't get staggered or knocked back by anything other than artillery and large monsters.

    Definite no to more ranged or speed or kiting potential in general. Try enjoying playing vs kiting DE as chaos after changes like that...

    They also really don't need more mass.
  • vizareshvizaresh Registered Users Posts: 225
    edited August 2020
    yst said:

    + poison melee
    + Poison missile

    What r they exactly in tabletop anyway?




    they are missing something like a Mortis engine effect but the rest is the same as in-game I think. I'm not TT player so maybe I might be missing something.
    Post edited by vizaresh on
  • The_real_FAUST#6885The_real_FAUST#6885 Registered Users Posts: 2,107
    Definitely no to range increase for Medusa.

  • UberReptilianUberReptilian The Crystal LabyrinthRegistered Users Posts: 5,487
    Never thought I’d see anyone argue it’s a good unit. This forum’s weird lol.
  • vizareshvizaresh Registered Users Posts: 225
    edited August 2020

    Never thought I’d see anyone argue it’s a good unit. This forum’s weird lol.

    I don't think people who are against medusa buffs have ever picked it.
  • UberReptilianUberReptilian The Crystal LabyrinthRegistered Users Posts: 5,487
    vizaresh said:

    Never thought I’d see anyone argue it’s a good unit. This forum’s weird lol.

    I don't think people who are against medusa buffs have ever picked it.
    Haha, yes I don't think anyone in general has picked it since December in MP. The only people I imagine use it are those guys who like making meme armies work, like Ghorst or Grimgor as the Lord.

    BTW, good video. Never knew CA addressed the ranged animation issue. Also watching that Stegadon fight was depressing, it was like watching a man beating his spouse.
  • vizareshvizaresh Registered Users Posts: 225

    vizaresh said:

    Never thought I’d see anyone argue it’s a good unit. This forum’s weird lol.

    I don't think people who are against medusa buffs have ever picked it.
    Haha, yes I don't think anyone in general has picked it since December in MP. The only people I imagine use it are those guys who like making meme armies work, like Ghorst or Grimgor as the Lord.

    BTW, good video. Never knew CA addressed the ranged animation issue. Also watching that Stegadon fight was depressing, it was like watching a man beating his spouse.
    haha... thank you for the kind words.
    I'm going to make some videos trying to use medusa in MP battles. if no ones picking it, I'm gonna do it and try not to look miserable doing it.
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