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Tier list

Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 9,929
edited September 1 in Balancing Discussions
Since the last tier list got a bit of drama going i though it be good to share my view on this topic.

Tier S (in need of nerf to few parts of the roster)

Coast, Greenskins


Tier 1 (strong factions that only have 1 or two units over performing Or just great overall synergy and roster depth)

HE, LZM, EMP, Norsca, TK, SKV


Tier 2 (overall balanced factions that might have few units in need of buffs or some anwsers to very one sided mach ups)

Chaos, WE, Dwarfs, VC, Bret, BM, DE (DE are what i consider a tier 1.5 faction at the movement, but since i dont think anything in their roster needs nerfing i have placed them in tier 2)


I think the aim of balancing should be to have all those factions in between tier 1 or 2 which is not to far off.


And while my tier list groups most factions close together i do think the biggest issue are Horrible match ups that still exist, so any dlc’s should focus on plugging some of those gaps as was done with HE one.
Post edited by Lotus_Moon on
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Comments

  • andrewbh2003andrewbh2003 Registered Users Posts: 148
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 7,262
    yap i think WE will be fine after dlc,
    and once BM, WoC, VC and Dwarf get dlc they also be fine. these will most likely get dlc.

    hopefully Bret will get dlc as well which will help balancing them better(please CA dlc for brets)
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • blindjonnblindjonn Registered Users Posts: 724
    This list reads more like my experience of TW:W, but Felkon's was very well reasoned, I think a few surprising matchups based on lesser known builds threw the board off a bit. I agree that the worst matchups need to be shored up as a priority, and I also firmly believe that smallest rosters need more units to be relevant in game 3 metas.

  • UberReptilianUberReptilian U.S.S.RRegistered Users Posts: 1,988
    edited September 1
    Seems pretty reasonable to me. Be really interesting if this DLC has the Dark Elves where they will end up alongside the Wood Elves. If the opponent is Skaven though...that'll be real interesting.

    Since the last tier list got a bit of drama going

    To be fair, what doesn't in this forum rofl.
  • blindjonnblindjonn Registered Users Posts: 724

    Be really interesting if this DLC has the Dark Elves where they will end up alongside the Wood Elves. If the opponent is Skaven though...that'll be real interesting.

    It's always odd to see Dark Elves on the bottom half of the tier list, since they've got such varied tools. Their roster is almost complete, as well. Maybe some buffs would sort them out. Skaven, on the other hand, are missing some mobile units, among other things. I really hope we do get a broad Welves vs Clan Moulder DLC, with some fast stuff Skaven will become a faction I can actually play.
  • DwarfSizedBeardDwarfSizedBeard Registered Users Posts: 936
    I wouldn't give any value to the teir list video, remember that every single matchup was rated independently of difficulty of a matchup, so for some factions they have factions they absolutely demolish in battle, like you hve to be much better or you will lose, and that was valued just as much as a matchup that with a traditional build you will be at a disadvantage, a fair teir list would have people watch people of similar skill levels and rate how difficult the fight was for either side and which has the advantage and how large of one it is, ideally using a 100 point system wirh 50 being the starting point, then when you go to graph it you subtract the base 50 for each matchup
  • UberReptilianUberReptilian U.S.S.RRegistered Users Posts: 1,988
    blindjonn said:

    Be really interesting if this DLC has the Dark Elves where they will end up alongside the Wood Elves. If the opponent is Skaven though...that'll be real interesting.

    It's always odd to see Dark Elves on the bottom half of the tier list, since they've got such varied tools. Their roster is almost complete, as well. Maybe some buffs would sort them out. Skaven, on the other hand, are missing some mobile units, among other things. I really hope we do get a broad Welves vs Clan Moulder DLC, with some fast stuff Skaven will become a faction I can actually play.
    Yeah, I don't think DE need a DLC but it is a possibility. Problem I find with them is they have a lot stuff that needs buffing and only a few areas that need nerfing. Malus, Kharybdiss, Medusa and Reaper Bolt Throwers immediately strike out to me as needing buffs/bug fixes and then I can see an immediate jump in tier. I think the Scourgerunner stuff really made everyone focus on them being OP, but they have quite a few useless tools imo.

    Moulder is where it's at I agree. As far as TT's concerned Giant and Wolf Rats and Brood Horrors are the only missing 8th Edition units and all of should be quite fast. Just getting a Dire Wolf with Giant Rats and Norscan Ice Wolves with Wolf Rats would be huge. Plus the Horror if added would give the Warlord a Regenerating Infantry Blender with a Bloated Corpse-esque death. Might actually see them in MP again. If Moulder does happen I think the Rat-men will be more of a bane here than they already are haha.

    I'm no WE expert but they also 1000% jump a tier if they get Spellweaver's with all 8 lores + High and Dark like they should. Melee Glade/Hawk riders too would also be insanely useful. Just really hoping they get something to help with the Dawi. DW VS WE is the worst matchup in the game imo.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,582
    This is very close to my intuitive list as well, I would probably bump up DE to tier 1 as well even though they would be the weakest faction of the t1 factions.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 2,027
    I do agree more with this. Only DE are still T1 faction.
    Btw brets are quite good now not only vs LZDs, but vs Norsca too.
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 7,262
    tank3487 said:

    I do agree more with this. Only DE are still T1 faction.
    Btw brets are quite good now not only vs LZDs, but vs Norsca too.

    How do you counter fimir :'( they just kill every thing
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 2,027
    edited September 1


    How do you counter fimir :'( they just kill every thing

    Fimirs are slow and actually not that great right now for price. If Norsca split you overwhelm them 1 by 1 with cav+terror from Louen. If Norsca blob you has 5 archers to kill infantry/mammonth.
    It is not hard matchup for Bret if you do not let ship annihilate 1-2 units of cav.
    Thing is vs other factions in such situation Norsca can bring Ice trolls. But it is quite risky pick vs Brets.
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 7,262
    edited September 1
    tank3487 said:


    How do you counter fimir :'( they just kill every thing

    Fimirs are slow and actually not that great right now for price. If Norsca split you overwhelm them 1 by 1 with cav+terror from Louen. If Norsca blob you has 5 archers to kill infantry/mammonth.
    It is not hard matchup for Bret if you do not let ship annihilate 1-2 units of cav.
    Thing is vs other factions in such situation Norsca can bring Ice trolls. But it is quite risky pick vs Brets.
    Thank you will keep that in mind.

    But the issue is if they bring good number of fimir plus hounds.I always find not enough cav to keep both front line intact and back line secure with them.
    Its pretty much the same issue i face with the crab rush of coast.

    Or stone troll rush plus light cav of GS.
    They just blitz your front line hard and bret infantry gets insta routed. Then they force cav to front line and when cav count go down they attack with light cav or hounds and kill archers.

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 9,929

    This is very close to my intuitive list as well, I would probably bump up DE to tier 1 as well even though they would be the weakest faction of the t1 factions.

    Yep spot on, for me DE are the proper definition of tier 1.5 at the moment, only reason i placed them in tier 2 not 1 currently was because of my definition of the tiers being based on untis needing nerfing etc and i dotn think thats the case with DE at the moment.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 2,027


    But the issue is if they bring good number of fimir plus hounds.

    Thing is. If you take Mammonth Lord plus 3 Fimirs GW plus Fimir fire caster(and if it is not Fimir, Manticore summon would just eat it). It is around 8150 gold. And you still need infantry. And marauders would rout instantly vs charge+terror.
    Btw it is one matchup where i prefer Beast caster for brets btw, cause manticore force Fimirs to keep near caster or face caster snipe.
    I tend to find this matchup much easier from Bret side you pick engagements, hounds are not that big problem if you do not miss micro cav.
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 2,494
    Is definitely doable against norsca

    Would say the bad mu for bret are chaos
    Ive seen new builds with archaeon and 2-3chaos knights, 1/2 shaggoth , chaos warrior halberd and mar horseman
    Archaeon has been surprisingly great against bret more than kholek.

    Dwf
    Still hard

    Vp
    very hard. Zombies are too strong, too many things bret need to prepare for. Archers dont work against prepaeed vp, they just break to a breeze and then dogs chew them


    Gs just realy good now.

    Tk, gotrek and fay is holding it to a fair mu. Without gotrek i would say its hard.

    I would say norsca is fair but if norsca is on point on aoe spells and bret is busy looking somewhere else. Bret infantry and archer will break insanely fast.

    Dealing with fimir is their ld. Encircle them and have terror. Shoot them too for that extra -5ld.

    And in all, bret weakness is still their predictability.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,322
    can we agree that Wood Elves are tier W? W like Wood. I feel that the last time we read F, that didn't stress the concept enough.
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 2,027
    edited September 1


    I would say norsca is fair but if norsca is on point on aoe spells and bret is busy looking somewhere else. Bret infantry and archer will break insanely fast.

    All you infantry are either peasants/peasants with pointy sticks maybe with RoR piligrims(and they have loose formation, so not fear that much of AOEs). And you has not point of blobbing brets infantry, cause you just buy time with it. With missiles it is all about proper position. If you place archers correctly Norsca cannot hit more than 1 archer unit with AOE even if you do not dodge.
    Only thing that i am worried about are ship hitting main cav unit. Cav can dodge it due to speed(and you actually has no reason to sit in tight formation with cav unit, cause you charge and retreat), but need attention.


    And in all, bret weakness is still their predictability.

    Norsca are quite predictable too.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 2,027
    As for topic. I actually agree with Tiering if DE are Tier 1.5 at least. With exception of HE being tier higher in the S division if you use toxic things like Nets+breaths or Net+Fiery and combos with diffrent lores kite to the max potential. And i think people overestimate GS a bit.

    VP would be fine the moment CA fix bombers.
  • The_real_FAUSTThe_real_FAUST Registered Users Posts: 1,077
    Good thread thanks for it and your thoughts.

    I find I agree more with this one than the other- though of course that doesn't mean that was is wrong and this one is right.

    I'd push DE up into 1 but the reasoning for 1.5 makes sense and I can see the point.

    I hope this thread lasts it's a good topic for discussion.

    All the more reason for CA to release the stats from the previous patch!

    Duck and the gang, please consider it.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,820
    tank3487 said:

    As for topic. I actually agree with Tiering if DE are Tier 1.5 at least. With exception of HE being tier higher in the S division if you use toxic things like Nets+breaths or Net+Fiery and combos with diffrent lores kite to the max potential. And i think people overestimate GS a bit.

    VP would be fine the moment CA fix bombers.

    DE have some pretty bad matchups now, and due to being a low hp faction with limited range and healing they suffer more when other races get buffs.

    Pirates OP bombers hurt that matchup for DE more than for other factions; it’s quite lopsided.

    HE buffs to infantry units and magic cut into DE options quite a bit; quite lopsided now.

    GS still have insanely good skirmish cav options and their very tanky super item lords are especially potent Vs a low hp faction; feels quite lopsided now.

    Still they’re not in a terrible place overall but I think they’ve been hit pretty hard by the most recent balance fails. Scourgerunners and cold one knights are holding the faction together, though I appreciate they at least got cheaper darkshards in recent patch as an option.
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 2,494
    edited September 1
    tank3487 said:


    I would say norsca is fair but if norsca is on point on aoe spells and bret is busy looking somewhere else. Bret infantry and archer will break insanely fast.

    All you infantry are either peasants/peasants with pointy sticks maybe with RoR piligrims(and they have loose formation, so not fear that much of AOEs). And you has not point of blobbing brets infantry, cause you just buy time with it. With missiles it is all about proper position. If you place archers correctly Norsca cannot hit more than 1 archer unit with AOE even if you do not dodge.
    Only thing that i am worried about are ship hitting main cav unit. Cav can dodge it due to speed(and you actually has no reason to sit in tight formation with cav unit, cause you charge and retreat), but need attention.


    And in all, bret weakness is still their predictability.

    Norsca are quite predictable too.
    Norsca predictability at least spread out into different types of units, monster, monster inf, infantry, chariots and skirmishers
    Bret predicitability is focused on cav, archers and their monster lord.

    Both of them are predicitable but bret is definitely more.

    Also i meant aoe spells on archers
    Seafang and burning head will reliably rout one even dodging some of it thanks to low ld.
    And i do know how to position them to not get more than one unit being hit by wind spell but still the line can crumble realy quick with mammoths, fimirs and spell. Or sometimes berserkers or skinwolves



    Im not a big fan of pilgrims in this mu. Maybe 2 of them max. Prefer spearmen and more gold to the cav.

    Anyways. Its a fair mu. Thats my point
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 2,027


    Bret predicitability is focused on cav, archers and their monster lord.

    Bret has much better Lords variation. It is quite hard to be prepared for both Mortis lady and Louen, plus throgg tier other Bret Lords.
    Brets has good air. Can field artillery.
    I mean while both factions do suck at "surprise you" factor on unit selection. Brets Lords variation are definitely better.
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 2,494
    tank3487 said:


    Bret predicitability is focused on cav, archers and their monster lord.

    Bret has much better Lords variation. It is quite hard to be prepared for both Mortis lady and Louen, plus throgg tier other Bret Lords.
    Brets has good air. Can field artillery.
    I mean while both factions do suck at "surprise you" factor on unit selection. Brets Lords variation are definitely better.
    true that
  • Cadia101Cadia101 Registered Users Posts: 1,017
    tank3487 said:


    Bret predicitability is focused on cav, archers and their monster lord.

    Bret has much better Lords variation. It is quite hard to be prepared for both Mortis lady and Louen, plus throgg tier other Bret Lords.
    Brets has good air. Can field artillery.
    I mean while both factions do suck at "surprise you" factor on unit selection. Brets Lords variation are definitely better.
    I don’t find trebuchet good tho and PK + RPK are very clunky to use.
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 7,262
    edited September 1
    Both Norsca and bret need dlc. Norsca to get more lord options bret to get more units and magic. And they have many rivalry between each other
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 2,494
    RPK is very hard to use well but done right can rack up hundreds of kills and headaches to opponent. PK is still mostly trash
    at least bret does have a somewhat usuable artillery, norsca dont.


    A norsca vs bret dlc, barbarian vs knight would be cool. They do have rivalry.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 2,027
    Cadia101 said:


    I don’t find trebuchet good

    They are not good. But it is cheap arty that counter some builds quite hard.
    Cadia101 said:


    PK + RPK are very clunky to use.

    Most air are clunky to use. Just look on Vargheists.

    Both Norsca and bret need dlc. Norsca to get more lord options bret to get more units and magic. And they have many rivalry between each other

    That Norsca are stuck with 1 Lord basicaly(plus Throg that sometimes can be used) right now are quite problematic.
  • Cadia101Cadia101 Registered Users Posts: 1,017
    tank3487 said:


    Cadia101 said:


    PK + RPK are very clunky to use.

    Most air are clunky to use. Just look on Vargheists.

    I would say single models have no problem but anything with more than 6 models have problems with charge and disengagement.
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 7,262
    Cadia101 said:

    tank3487 said:


    Cadia101 said:


    PK + RPK are very clunky to use.

    Most air are clunky to use. Just look on Vargheists.

    I would say single models have no problem but anything with more than 6 models have problems with charge and disengagement.
    Charge is fine disengagement suck.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 2,494
    Charge is hard too

    You need to be extra wary charging into blob fights with pegasus knights as they charge into the blob and get surrounded instead of cavs charging into the outside


    Its why they are hard to use. They dont perform well in messy and tight situations.
This discussion has been closed.