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  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 7,246
    edited September 1

    Charge is hard too

    You need to be extra wary charging into blob fights with pegasus knights as they charge into the blob and get surrounded instead of cavs charging into the outside


    Its why they are hard to use. They dont perform well in messy and tight situations.

    For blobb its like fire and forget hope they do enough damge to cause routes. I find RHK just as bad in blob since they alsways have model that get stuck. Which bring the whole unit back in.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • Cadia101Cadia101 Registered Users Posts: 1,010

    Charge is hard too

    You need to be extra wary charging into blob fights with pegasus knights as they charge into the blob and get surrounded instead of cavs charging into the outside


    Its why they are hard to use. They dont perform well in messy and tight situations.

    For blobb its like fire and forget hope they do enough damge to cause routes. I find RHK just as bad in blob since they alsways have model that get stuck. Which bring the whole unit back in.
    RHK have enough mass to escape, they get hit doing so but they can escape. PK and RPK dont have the mass to do the same and you will always have 4 or 5 models that end up deeper in enemies formation than cavalry would.
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 7,246
    Cadia101 said:

    Charge is hard too

    You need to be extra wary charging into blob fights with pegasus knights as they charge into the blob and get surrounded instead of cavs charging into the outside


    Its why they are hard to use. They dont perform well in messy and tight situations.

    For blobb its like fire and forget hope they do enough damge to cause routes. I find RHK just as bad in blob since they alsways have model that get stuck. Which bring the whole unit back in.
    RHK have enough mass to escape, they get hit doing so but they can escape. PK and RPK dont have the mass to do the same and you will always have 4 or 5 models that end up deeper in enemies formation than cavalry would.
    Yes pegasus have mass issue, but RHK some times just get stuck on one infantry model its just weird.
    I think in TT pegasus were considerd monsters. So should be bigger and heavier.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,815
    Also it goes without saying but there's no particular reason to put greenskins in "S" tier. They only have 1 or 2 matchups that are strongly in their favour (dark elves in particular). They're a little too strong right now, just as the high elves are, but not comparable to pirates.

  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 9,928
    eumaies said:

    Also it goes without saying but there's no particular reason to put greenskins in "S" tier. They only have 1 or 2 matchups that are strongly in their favour (dark elves in particular). They're a little too strong right now, just as the high elves are, but not comparable to pirates.

    I dont actually disagree with that statement but personally i find they got few things in need of nerf (bob, some airas, stone trolls) and in addition i dont really feel confidant picking any faction into GS rite now Other than perhaps coast, with HE i find the issue to be just arcane pheonix and teclis and can still Identify bad match ups, with GS they are very good vs WE, vs Chaos, vs DE, than vs
    I find slight edge vs TK, BM, SKV, Bret, HE, DWF

    And their bad match up which was LZM and VC before feel like got patched up.

    Emp feels even and havent played vs norsca much as GS so i wont coment. So to me only bad one is really Pirates

    So yeah i do agree they are Not coast level but i tried avoiding tier .5 and 1.5 and just split it into 3 tiers.

    If i had to do this i would coast SS, GS S
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,317
    eumaies said:

    Also it goes without saying but there's no particular reason to put greenskins in "S" tier. They only have 1 or 2 matchups that are strongly in their favour (dark elves in particular). They're a little too strong right now, just as the high elves are, but not comparable to pirates.

    GS have a ton of “mildly favorable” matchups, ranging from HE, to DW, to TK. The reasons ( and units ) for why GS have an advantage in these MUs are differwnt but the bottom line is that GS are favored.

    As foe HE needing nerfs, I don’t see any unit in HE roster that needs a nerf currently. What did you have in mind?
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 9,928
    Green0 said:

    eumaies said:

    Also it goes without saying but there's no particular reason to put greenskins in "S" tier. They only have 1 or 2 matchups that are strongly in their favour (dark elves in particular). They're a little too strong right now, just as the high elves are, but not comparable to pirates.

    GS have a ton of “mildly favorable” matchups, ranging from HE, to DW, to TK. The reasons ( and units ) for why GS have an advantage in these MUs are differwnt but the bottom line is that GS are favored.

    As foe HE needing nerfs, I don’t see any unit in HE roster that needs a nerf currently. What did you have in mind?
    Well i do think teclis needs a nerf, arcane poo bird also and than you got star of avelorn, thats my list though and white lion chariots could be added into this list aswell actually.
  • mightygloinmightygloin Karaz-a-KarakRegistered Users Posts: 3,303
    3 tiered list seems pretty accurate when it comes to rating the general power of the factions and this one seems pretty close to my extremely accurate gut feeling. Otherwise it seems like there are mountains between the factions in the first and last tier. Any faction can beat another after all. The biggest issue that sets them apart would be the number of viable units & characters in the roster and possible playstyle options. /ale filled cough

  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 7,246

    3 tiered list seems pretty accurate when it comes to rating the general power of the factions and this one seems pretty close to my extremely accurate gut feeling. Otherwise it seems like there are mountains between the factions in the first and last tier. Any faction can beat another after all. The biggest issue that sets them apart would be the number of viable units & characters in the roster and possible playstyle options. /ale filled cough

    or wine filled cough
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,317

    Green0 said:

    eumaies said:

    Also it goes without saying but there's no particular reason to put greenskins in "S" tier. They only have 1 or 2 matchups that are strongly in their favour (dark elves in particular). They're a little too strong right now, just as the high elves are, but not comparable to pirates.

    GS have a ton of “mildly favorable” matchups, ranging from HE, to DW, to TK. The reasons ( and units ) for why GS have an advantage in these MUs are differwnt but the bottom line is that GS are favored.

    As foe HE needing nerfs, I don’t see any unit in HE roster that needs a nerf currently. What did you have in mind?
    Well i do think teclis needs a nerf, arcane poo bird also and than you got star of avelorn, thats my list though and white lion chariots could be added into this list aswell actually.
    arcane poo is too strong? Since when?
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 9,928
    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    eumaies said:

    Also it goes without saying but there's no particular reason to put greenskins in "S" tier. They only have 1 or 2 matchups that are strongly in their favour (dark elves in particular). They're a little too strong right now, just as the high elves are, but not comparable to pirates.

    GS have a ton of “mildly favorable” matchups, ranging from HE, to DW, to TK. The reasons ( and units ) for why GS have an advantage in these MUs are differwnt but the bottom line is that GS are favored.

    As foe HE needing nerfs, I don’t see any unit in HE roster that needs a nerf currently. What did you have in mind?
    Well i do think teclis needs a nerf, arcane poo bird also and than you got star of avelorn, thats my list though and white lion chariots could be added into this list aswell actually.
    arcane poo is too strong? Since when?
    By arcane poo i meant arcane pheonix, its not that its too much to strong just to hard to deal with due to tankynes same as teclis on his bird. Remove some resistances and no issues.
  • UberReptilianUberReptilian U.S.S.RRegistered Users Posts: 1,988

    Green0 said:

    eumaies said:

    Also it goes without saying but there's no particular reason to put greenskins in "S" tier. They only have 1 or 2 matchups that are strongly in their favour (dark elves in particular). They're a little too strong right now, just as the high elves are, but not comparable to pirates.

    GS have a ton of “mildly favorable” matchups, ranging from HE, to DW, to TK. The reasons ( and units ) for why GS have an advantage in these MUs are differwnt but the bottom line is that GS are favored.

    As foe HE needing nerfs, I don’t see any unit in HE roster that needs a nerf currently. What did you have in mind?
    Well i do think teclis needs a nerf, arcane poo bird also and than you got star of avelorn, thats my list though and white lion chariots could be added into this list aswell actually.
    I haven't encountered many White Lion chariots and don't use them myself, so what's the issue with them?
    Legitemate quesiton btw, I'd like to know.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,317

    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    eumaies said:

    Also it goes without saying but there's no particular reason to put greenskins in "S" tier. They only have 1 or 2 matchups that are strongly in their favour (dark elves in particular). They're a little too strong right now, just as the high elves are, but not comparable to pirates.

    GS have a ton of “mildly favorable” matchups, ranging from HE, to DW, to TK. The reasons ( and units ) for why GS have an advantage in these MUs are differwnt but the bottom line is that GS are favored.

    As foe HE needing nerfs, I don’t see any unit in HE roster that needs a nerf currently. What did you have in mind?
    Well i do think teclis needs a nerf, arcane poo bird also and than you got star of avelorn, thats my list though and white lion chariots could be added into this list aswell actually.
    arcane poo is too strong? Since when?
    By arcane poo i meant arcane pheonix, its not that its too much to strong just to hard to deal with due to tankynes same as teclis on his bird. Remove some resistances and no issues.
    ah ok. Well idk, I tried it, it suffer same problems of all phoenixes. I agree it's hard to get rid of early though.
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 8,128
    edited September 2
    Green0 said:

    ah ok. Well idk, I tried it, it suffer same problems of all phoenixes. I agree it's hard to get rid of early though.

    Yea suffering from having the best animation in game, 0 detectable hitbox, stupid high ld 90 and 120 speed lol. By far my fav unit to abuse.

    Really love what they did to arcane phoenix, introducing something as no brainer stupidly good as that. Gold really, great news for welf. Mad excited about what utter op stuffs they gonna bring. Just when u thought scourge is the end where u get ap, anti inf, anti large, speed, chariot in one. They give u arcane.

    And thats saying the game is only at 60% completion lol, add int he 4 new ones in war 3 + faction packs, my god, games gonna be hella fun with autowin units running around

    Chaos deamons - tabletop king for over 3 decades, completely unmatched.
    Orges - no need to explain this one lol, mournfang alone is enough said
    Chaos dwf - dwf with monsters, yes pls
    No one even cares about the 4th lol

    Faction tier list gonna be so irrelevant by then

    t0 - faction dlc pack
    t1 - war 3 factions
    t2 - war 2 factions
    t3 - war 1 factions
    https://imgur.com/a/Cj4b9
    Top #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 9,928

    Green0 said:

    eumaies said:

    Also it goes without saying but there's no particular reason to put greenskins in "S" tier. They only have 1 or 2 matchups that are strongly in their favour (dark elves in particular). They're a little too strong right now, just as the high elves are, but not comparable to pirates.

    GS have a ton of “mildly favorable” matchups, ranging from HE, to DW, to TK. The reasons ( and units ) for why GS have an advantage in these MUs are differwnt but the bottom line is that GS are favored.

    As foe HE needing nerfs, I don’t see any unit in HE roster that needs a nerf currently. What did you have in mind?
    Well i do think teclis needs a nerf, arcane poo bird also and than you got star of avelorn, thats my list though and white lion chariots could be added into this list aswell actually.
    I haven't encountered many White Lion chariots and don't use them myself, so what's the issue with them?
    Legitemate quesiton btw, I'd like to know.
    They hit very hard and are AP, they are fast with missile resistance aswell. They are best chariots in the game for cost now i feel.
    Strongly recommend giving them a go.
  • UberReptilianUberReptilian U.S.S.RRegistered Users Posts: 1,988

    Green0 said:

    eumaies said:

    Also it goes without saying but there's no particular reason to put greenskins in "S" tier. They only have 1 or 2 matchups that are strongly in their favour (dark elves in particular). They're a little too strong right now, just as the high elves are, but not comparable to pirates.

    GS have a ton of “mildly favorable” matchups, ranging from HE, to DW, to TK. The reasons ( and units ) for why GS have an advantage in these MUs are differwnt but the bottom line is that GS are favored.

    As foe HE needing nerfs, I don’t see any unit in HE roster that needs a nerf currently. What did you have in mind?
    Well i do think teclis needs a nerf, arcane poo bird also and than you got star of avelorn, thats my list though and white lion chariots could be added into this list aswell actually.
    I haven't encountered many White Lion chariots and don't use them myself, so what's the issue with them?
    Legitemate quesiton btw, I'd like to know.
    They hit very hard and are AP, they are fast with missile resistance aswell. They are best chariots in the game for cost now i feel.
    Strongly recommend giving them a go.
    I see, thank you kindly. Didn't realise how fast they actually were until looking at the stats. I'd probably start with that if we want to nerf them rather than their AP values or missle resist.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,815
    Yeah white lion chariots are extremely good - massive speed plus missile resist is pretty crazy on a chariot. Could stand to be slower since their theoretical weakness is Melee combat.

    Other than that I think the infantry line (rangers and white lions) is too good given the factions prowess in ranged and magic and healing synergies. It’s not a race like dark elf that is tied to its more limited Hp and shorter range units. It doesn’t need best in class inf. Vampire counts and dwarfs are both unnecessarily disadvantaged Vs high elf right now. Conversely I don’t think toning down their strength in this area would give them any suddenly bad matchups.

    Or one could tinker with single entity healing caps and that would affect a variety of high elf builds more than others.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,582
    HE still are basically disadvantaged vs all rush races so no need to make their infantry fold any faster. If anything you'd nerf something specific that makes them win vs vc and dawi which imo are their only truly good mu, but not make them lose harder vs rush races plus emp and bret.
  • SarmatiannsSarmatianns Registered Users Posts: 4,323

    HE still are basically disadvantaged vs all rush races so no need to make their infantry fold any faster. If anything you'd nerf something specific that makes them win vs vc and dawi which imo are their only truly good mu, but not make them lose harder vs rush races plus emp and bret.

    That is a flawed argument. You could turn it around and say other factions need much more and much better flying monsters because they're at a disadvantage against HE.

    It is not like High Elves don't have answers to rush, it's just that receiving it head on and hoping to come out on top is not the best idea against some factions. Then again, HE usually tend to get outspent in those instances. They can duke it out with almost all factions right now, given equal funds.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 9,928
    edited September 2
    eumaies said:

    Yeah white lion chariots are extremely good - massive speed plus missile resist is pretty crazy on a chariot. Could stand to be slower since their theoretical weakness is Melee combat.

    Other than that I think the infantry line (rangers and white lions) is too good given the factions prowess in ranged and magic and healing synergies. It’s not a race like dark elf that is tied to its more limited Hp and shorter range units. It doesn’t need best in class inf. Vampire counts and dwarfs are both unnecessarily disadvantaged Vs high elf right now. Conversely I don’t think toning down their strength in this area would give them any suddenly bad matchups.

    Or one could tinker with single entity healing caps and that would affect a variety of high elf builds more than others.

    Both dwarfs and VC are only disadvantaged due to tempest, if this was not such a good spell or on allariel there would not be such issues. But i dont see why its wrong to have good and bad match-ups, tone down tempest and this match-ups are quite reasnable.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,582

    HE still are basically disadvantaged vs all rush races so no need to make their infantry fold any faster. If anything you'd nerf something specific that makes them win vs vc and dawi which imo are their only truly good mu, but not make them lose harder vs rush races plus emp and bret.

    That is a flawed argument. You could turn it around and say other factions need much more and much better flying monsters because they're at a disadvantage against HE.

    It is not like High Elves don't have answers to rush, it's just that receiving it head on and hoping to come out on top is not the best idea against some factions. Then again, HE usually tend to get outspent in those instances. They can duke it out with almost all factions right now, given equal funds.
    Flawed I don't know, but it's definitely not an argument to make HE weaker at their weakness because they happen to do well vs Dwarves in melee.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,317
    eumaies said:

    Yeah white lion chariots are extremely good - massive speed plus missile resist is pretty crazy on a chariot. Could stand to be slower since their theoretical weakness is Melee combat.

    Other than that I think the infantry line (rangers and white lions) is too good given the factions prowess in ranged and magic and healing synergies. It’s not a race like dark elf that is tied to its more limited Hp and shorter range units. It doesn’t need best in class inf. Vampire counts and dwarfs are both unnecessarily disadvantaged Vs high elf right now. Conversely I don’t think toning down their strength in this area would give them any suddenly bad matchups.

    Or one could tinker with single entity healing caps and that would affect a variety of high elf builds more than others.

    ok thanks for explaining. I disagree though.

    HE still are basically disadvantaged vs all rush races so no need to make their infantry fold any faster. If anything you'd nerf something specific that makes them win vs vc and dawi which imo are their only truly good mu, but not make them lose harder vs rush races plus emp and bret.

    That is a flawed argument. You could turn it around and say other factions need much more and much better flying monsters because they're at a disadvantage against HE.

    It is not like High Elves don't have answers to rush, it's just that receiving it head on and hoping to come out on top is not the best idea against some factions. Then again, HE usually tend to get outspent in those instances. They can duke it out with almost all factions right now, given equal funds.
    to give an example, HE are at a disadvantage vs Norsca, because infantry-wise their only good unit (Phoenix Guard) gets wrecked hard by both Pendulum and Seafang. Norsca doesn't need to worry about the threat of Phoenix Guard, because countering it is a button press, so it doesn't need to worry about infantry play (which SHOULD be an inherent weakness of Norsca since it lacks artillery and missiles) in general.

    I could give other examples but I hope this helps you understand why HE struggle vs rushes and they have a strong "rest of roster" to compensate for their somewhat underwhelming infantry.
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 2,027
    Green0 said:


    to give an example, HE are at a disadvantage vs Norsca

    HE are not disadvantaged vs Norsca, if you do not like melee infantry, you can kite just fine.
    Such versatility are one of the reason why HE are OP right now.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,317
    edited September 2
    tank3487 said:

    Green0 said:


    to give an example, HE are at a disadvantage vs Norsca

    HE are not disadvantaged vs Norsca, if you do not like melee infantry, you can kite just fine.
    Such versatility are one of the reason why HE are OP right now.
    kite Norsca? You jest, surely.

    HE are not OP the last 3-4 tournaments I've been spectating for example I don't think I recall HE winning one time. Recently I saw HE lose to Greenskins and Vampire Coast for example.

    Does that mean HE are weak? Probably not but when you don't even see them picked systematically OR win in recent tournaments I don't think you can build a case for them being OP.

    People apparently still favor autowin factions like Vampire Coast, Norsca and Greenskins before picking HE.

    For example, they lost here:



    and here:



    from 2 most recent tournaments

    Turns out HE still struggle to deal with armor (GS case) and to bring loads of HP to the table (VP case).
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,815

    eumaies said:

    Yeah white lion chariots are extremely good - massive speed plus missile resist is pretty crazy on a chariot. Could stand to be slower since their theoretical weakness is Melee combat.

    Other than that I think the infantry line (rangers and white lions) is too good given the factions prowess in ranged and magic and healing synergies. It’s not a race like dark elf that is tied to its more limited Hp and shorter range units. It doesn’t need best in class inf. Vampire counts and dwarfs are both unnecessarily disadvantaged Vs high elf right now. Conversely I don’t think toning down their strength in this area would give them any suddenly bad matchups.

    Or one could tinker with single entity healing caps and that would affect a variety of high elf builds more than others.

    Both dwarfs and VC are only disadvantaged due to tempest, if this was not such a good spell or on allariel there would not be such issues. But i dont see why its wrong to have good and bad match-ups, tone down tempest and this match-ups are quite reasnable.
    Yeah I think you're wrong on this detail for the dwarf matchup. Tempest is a nice spell and all (and however you nerf it it will still have to basically do its thing), but high elves have a very solid eagle unit to counteract gyros, and more importantly the lion chariots are very high HP, missile resist, very fast chariots, that also can usually be healed if needed. Gyrocoptors are not relevant to the matchup in any realistic timeframe vs this unit. it's a chariot that's meant to be only really countered in melee.

    on other topics folks have mentioned high elves front line being disadvantaged vs norscan rush -- join the club. Anyone think that dark elf front lines fare any better? Empire front lines same story, that's just playing against norsca. Certainly they could nerf the free pendulums from wulfrik's ship and that would help across the board, but for most of these factions its the same story - you're at a disadvantage vs equivalent cost front line of a rush faction, but you can still gamble if you want to surpise by going heavy in that area

  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,582
    I mean HE are at a disadvantage vs the rush factions in general, not only vs the front line. I agree to a large degree with felkons ratings, HE are at a slight disadvantage vs a pretty long list of factions.



    So according to that list: Bret, Emp, Liz, BM, Norsca, Skv and GS are all slightly unfavorable. I'd personally shuffle a little, I'd give HE +0.5 vs WoC and Skv, but I would on the other hand rate TK at best 0, quite possibly -0.5 vs someone who knows TK well, and same for VP, at best even. I don't get this HE OP gospel really. I find the DWF matchup by a margin the easiest matchup for HE, followed by VC, then nothing, then WE. The people I hear saying HE are Tier S are dwarf and vc mains as I know them at least.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,582
    And about HE vs DWF matchup I'd say it's because of a multitude of reasons rather than a single factor. Many units on the HE roster do very well vs dwarves. Easily accessible counters to flying is one factor, cost efficient infantry with MR, loose formation and AP is another, chariots a third and fast foot archers a fourth etc.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,815

    And about HE vs DWF matchup I'd say it's because of a multitude of reasons rather than a single factor. Many units on the HE roster do very well vs dwarves. Easily accessible counters to flying is one factor, cost efficient infantry with MR, loose formation and AP is another, chariots a third and fast foot archers a fourth etc.

    it's fundamentally though (both in terms of fun and balance) just about the missile resistent (Both nobles and lions) fast healable chariots that you can spam. normal unit imbalances like having much better medium tier infantry aren't the root source of terrible matchups.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,815
    edited September 3

    I mean HE are at a disadvantage vs the rush factions in general, not only vs the front line. I agree to a large degree with felkons ratings, HE are at a slight disadvantage vs a pretty long list of factions.



    So according to that list: Bret, Emp, Liz, BM, Norsca, Skv and GS are all slightly unfavorable. I'd personally shuffle a little, I'd give HE +0.5 vs WoC and Skv, but I would on the other hand rate TK at best 0, quite possibly -0.5 vs someone who knows TK well, and same for VP, at best even. I don't get this HE OP gospel really. I find the DWF matchup by a margin the easiest matchup for HE, followed by VC, then nothing, then WE. The people I hear saying HE are Tier S are dwarf and vc mains as I know them at least.

    misquoting me. i said both HE and greenskins belong in the same non-S bracket.

    As for Felkon's matchups (and your take on them), for both HE and Lizardmen I think he's way too aware of the faction's challenges and discounts their strengths. Skaven, empire, brettonia, beastmen, all miscalibrated IMO. Separately and unrelated, for dwarfs he seems to have mostly gone on hearsay and gets a host of matchups mis-calibrated IMO.
    Post edited by eumaies on
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 2,172
    edited September 3
    Yeah I mostly agree with this list.

    For HE nerfs, I would suggest something like:

    Teclis: lose missile resist on birb, +100 gold to potion, -50 g to mount. Also horse mount could easily be given a speed buff, or given a regular elven steed mount.
    LREL: -300hp healing for star and add resurrection, -10MD on eagle, -50g to eagle mount
    reaver archers: +25 g maybe
    noble chariot: +50g (with noble eagle -150g)

    I dont think lion chariot need nerfs
    Post edited by Loupi_ on
This discussion has been closed.