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  • AnalogAnalog Registered Users Posts: 241
    I continue to disagree that the HE are a Ranged superpower.

    Most factions with a ranged focus at least get access to cheaper AP ranged options OR have a wide variety of options to choose from in their ranged troops. The HE have neither and in fact most of their troops are priced in for being Deccent melee combatants.

    Range is a factor, but this advantage can come and go very easily in a variety of MU.

    The other thing i dont see often is relative cost. the cheapest possible line infantry for the HE is the 500g spearman. 500 is no small fee for your base infantry that you presumably need alot of to protect all those archers you defiantly want to bring because they are so good. it means your base cost presuming you only want the one spearman is 975 for the spear and archer combo. Which is no small fee given how much more cost effective other ranged factions are able to run this setup and how much more variance they can have within that price range. Also the HE are the only faction that have their cheapest line infantry more expensive than the archer they are protecting.

    I really dont see how they have garnered a reputation for being a ranged focused faction when Martial Prowess alone would indicate they have a melee identity.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,845
    Analog said:

    I continue to disagree that the HE are a Ranged superpower.

    Most factions with a ranged focus at least get access to cheaper AP ranged options OR have a wide variety of options to choose from in their ranged troops. The HE have neither and in fact most of their troops are priced in for being Deccent melee combatants.

    Range is a factor, but this advantage can come and go very easily in a variety of MU.

    The other thing i dont see often is relative cost. the cheapest possible line infantry for the HE is the 500g spearman. 500 is no small fee for your base infantry that you presumably need alot of to protect all those archers you defiantly want to bring because they are so good. it means your base cost presuming you only want the one spearman is 975 for the spear and archer combo. Which is no small fee given how much more cost effective other ranged factions are able to run this setup and how much more variance they can have within that price range. Also the HE are the only faction that have their cheapest line infantry more expensive than the archer they are protecting.

    I really dont see how they have garnered a reputation for being a ranged focused faction when Martial Prowess alone would indicate they have a melee identity.

    They’re not an artillery power for sure but their cheap archer spam is very strong, as is the overall mobility of their ranged tools. You wouldn’t try it Vs beastmen - no ranged faction (other than coast) would, but it’s a very strong tool in a lot of matchups. When your archers shoot further and move faster and cost less that’s a lot of ranged power. Of course they lack cheaper AP ranged options, but they have the magical tools to help offset that now, since armoured enemies are either expensive and worth focus firing down or slow as a rule.

    Anyway I would have no problem at all that they are also the strong melee infantry faction they are - that’s a lot of fun to play against. (And a 600 gold superior and fast anti chaff tool is far more important than having 450 cost line filler unit for defending Vs a swarm). But they’re also a very fast high-statted healing sem and chariot faction. It’s not like you can just wave away all the extreme build options and combos they have because it’s in poor taste to exploit their mobility and healing fully. That all impacts balance.


  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,845
    Responding more specifically to your post a cheap spread archer swarm is it’s own protection, usually with mobile elements to intercept threats. Alternately yes the pricier archers necessitate a smaller formation where many of the archers pay for their own protection. I don’t think in the latter scenario they’re that different from other factions or particularly strong.

    And then of course with their other tools they can go pure cav and kite with chariots being the anti infantry.

    Anyhoo a ranged superpower no, but that’s a straw man argument anyway, not the threshold.
  • AnalogAnalog Registered Users Posts: 241
    eumaies said:

    Analog said:

    I continue to disagree that the HE are a Ranged superpower.

    Most factions with a ranged focus at least get access to cheaper AP ranged options OR have a wide variety of options to choose from in their ranged troops. The HE have neither and in fact most of their troops are priced in for being Deccent melee combatants.

    Range is a factor, but this advantage can come and go very easily in a variety of MU.

    The other thing i dont see often is relative cost. the cheapest possible line infantry for the HE is the 500g spearman. 500 is no small fee for your base infantry that you presumably need alot of to protect all those archers you defiantly want to bring because they are so good. it means your base cost presuming you only want the one spearman is 975 for the spear and archer combo. Which is no small fee given how much more cost effective other ranged factions are able to run this setup and how much more variance they can have within that price range. Also the HE are the only faction that have their cheapest line infantry more expensive than the archer they are protecting.

    I really dont see how they have garnered a reputation for being a ranged focused faction when Martial Prowess alone would indicate they have a melee identity.

    They’re not an artillery power for sure but their cheap archer spam is very strong, as is the overall mobility of their ranged tools. You wouldn’t try it Vs beastmen - no ranged faction (other than coast) would, but it’s a very strong tool in a lot of matchups. When your archers shoot further and move faster and cost less that’s a lot of ranged power. Of course they lack cheaper AP ranged options, but they have the magical tools to help offset that now, since armoured enemies are either expensive and worth focus firing down or slow as a rule.

    Anyway I would have no problem at all that they are also the strong melee infantry faction they are - that’s a lot of fun to play against. (And a 600 gold superior and fast anti chaff tool is far more important than having 450 cost line filler unit for defending Vs a swarm). But they’re also a very fast high-statted healing sem and chariot faction. It’s not like you can just wave away all the extreme build options and combos they have because it’s in poor taste to exploit their mobility and healing fully. That all impacts balance.


    Agreed.

    But surely this means their ranged power is circumstantial, both on the matchup the HE find themselves in and if they bring the right supporting magic. THis is not to suggest that they are not strong, but just that ranged ability is not an area of assured strength for the HE, its more subjective comparative to other ranged factions that can more easily leverage their ranged strength. This is also not to suggest their are factions that can garentuee this strength, as you suggest, trying to leverage ranged against the beastman is mostly an uphill battle but i was speaking more generally.

    And the 450 line filler is more effective for trying to leverage a ranged strength. Reserving cost to spend on the damaging ranged troops or artillery or anything else.

    Of course not, the extreme build combos are absolutely a problem. Healing for HE SEM is a trouble in part because HE SEM have the potential to be both Highly armoured, highly damaging and in some cases extremely mobile. Combine this with an expanded ability to heal and you begin to have a clear grounds for SEM playing being OP.

    There are absolutely unbalanced elements to the HE roster, but i dont think the infantry, ranged or otherwise, is really the problem, its more to do with the monsters/mobility and healing synergies being a bit much.

    Calling it a strawman argument would be fair if i was responding to any one person or thing in particular but i was kinda just throwing my own three cents into the mix, not directly responding to anyone else.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,346
    HE archers are some of the most expensive in the game while packing some of the longest range in the game, sure, but also some of the lowest AP values in the game. Not sure how we can classify their archers as “very cheap”.

    Wanna see cheap ranged units, look at Dwarf Rangers, Quarrelers or all the entry missile troops of Coast.

    Hell even GS archers while having more flaws than HE ones in some circumstances perform more adequately.
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  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 8,171
    edited September 3
    Rofl 3 ap is low. Havent seen those with 1

    Ya till dwf gets +8 models on all their range then we can have real discussions. Just the really low content elf talk atm
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  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,346
    edited September 3
    yst said:

    Rofl 3 ap is low. Havent seen those with 1

    Ya till dwf gets +8 models on all their range then we can have real discussions. Just the really low content elf talk atm

    those with 1 typically have 90 models, which means that their total AP is generally still about 1/2 of HE archers. They also have faster reload rates and more normalized non-AP/10. Most of those units also cost like 375g or similar (Goblin example).

    As for Dwarves, their missile profile actually considers them having 8 less models, compare DW Thunderers to Emp Handgunners for example to see this.
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  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,588
    High elves are a low ap archer faction, not a ranged faction, if you need to classify it. The same goes for cav, it's a very very strong low ap cav faction, but far from as effective vs lots of armour. Plague of rust helps vs one target at the time but vs armour overload it's not dramatically different. It's a very useful tool to have but it doesnt remove the problem dealing with armour overload. It still remains so that the most reliable ap options vs cav are in single entities, which is what it is.

    Vs low armour the faction is very strong, then both archers, rangers, sw, lsg, reavers and dp do very well. It's still offset by vulnerability to rushes and monster artillery like vs BM, norsca, gs. Vs armour overload you still struggle vs emp, bret and LIZ. Its not as bad as before the dlc but its not fully patched either. The faction is not op.

    The one thing that is stupid is peclis himself in air duels and the peclis double breath goon squad. I am not considering these in my arguments above, these should just be restricted by removing potion of charoi on bird and not allow star dragons to be picked with other dragons imo.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 9,971
    I dont find anythign wrong that dwarfs have a hard match-up vs HE, i defiently think DWF vs HE is easier than DWF vs SKV. Nerf lion chariot a bit and tempest and the match up stays hard but nothing that bad.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,588
    I think if dwarves got a unit with mass it would be a different story with chariots.

    Cannons hard counter chaiots and also makes good work of BTs, so the biggest change this patch imo is that HE can now more reliably deal with dwarf cannons, which in turns enables BTs and chariots and a slower game plan, all while rushing is still a very real threat. It's rough on the dawi I think, but the reason for it imo is this cascade resulting from HE now being able to deal more reliably with artillery pieces from range between alith, high/fire mage, BTs and archers. Then it doesn't help the dawi that war lions, lion chariots and white lions are all very good vs armored infantry, and rangers are good vs slayers/backline. It's a bit of a perfect **** vs dawi, much like skaven units vs dawi, and like bret cav vs high elves, or skinwolves vs beastmen etc.

    The easily solved thing is helping the dawi roster with a unit with mass imo. They really need a rune golem type unit or a rework of giant slayers or whatever it would take to provide that blocking power. I think that would open up options.
  • littlenukelittlenuke Registered Users Posts: 420

    I dont find anythign wrong that dwarfs have a hard match-up vs HE, i defiently think DWF vs HE is easier than DWF vs SKV. Nerf lion chariot a bit and tempest and the match up stays hard but nothing that bad.

    Disagree. Skaven can be dealt with reliably using gyros if you have enough practice. HE is always a hit or miss, they have so much build variety
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  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 7,530
    yst said:

    Rofl 3 ap is low. Havent seen those with 1

    Ya till dwf gets +8 models on all their range then we can have real discussions. Just the really low content elf talk atm

    I mean orc archers have 6ap. So does emp crossbows and dwarf crossbows. I actually don't see this issue.

    3 ap is not just HElf thing, other have it.

    And 1 ap isn't really again that bad say on ungor archers who have stalk and vanguard for some thing around 400 gold.

    While gobbos may have 1 ap there supposed to be lot worst in lore. And noght gobbo archers exist with poison, vanguard,
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  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 7,530
    edited September 3
    night gobbo archers cost 25g more than spider archers, no wonder no one take them still

    Spider archers may need second pass in cost
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  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 9,971

    I dont find anythign wrong that dwarfs have a hard match-up vs HE, i defiently think DWF vs HE is easier than DWF vs SKV. Nerf lion chariot a bit and tempest and the match up stays hard but nothing that bad.

    Disagree. Skaven can be dealt with reliably using gyros if you have enough practice. HE is always a hit or miss, they have so much build variety
    Than we just disagree, my expierance with dwarfs has been that HE are not to hard to deal with and skv much harder, thoigh i got no idea why noone else except for me uses 5 BT build vs HE’s and clan angur, but fair enough if you find HE harder i dont.
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Registered Users Posts: 1,598

    night gobbo archers cost 25g more than spider archers, no wonder no one take them still

    Spider archers may need second pass in cost

    I don't really see why.

    1)

    Spider rider archers do
    1800 AP+8100 non-AP damage max @ 100m range
    Night gobbos do
    2160+21600 @ 115m range

    Night gobbos lose mobility but gain stalk, then theres some minute peripherals, either way the costs seem justified here.

    2)I see night gobbo archers on the occasion. Probably less than spider rider archers, but not by much, they arent all that popular either, especially because of how cheap and reliable wolf riders are.

    3)Night gobbo archers are kinda hamstrung by function. Poison is a dime a dozen on the GS roster, which only leaves stalk and vanguard as their big benefit. Unfortunately, for 125 less you get normal gobbo archers, which frees up money for more chaff. Or you get orc arrers who hit far harder. Sure none of them stalk, but the benefits on such short ranged archers who are moving with the bulk of your main force are very limited.
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  • RheingoldRheingold Registered Users Posts: 628
    It's a good list, makes much more sense than the previous one.
    Coast and greenskins need nerfs absolutely, but I'd be careful about too much nerfs which can cripple them. And with CA's support it'll take years for them to come right.
    Greenskins, Bobb or stone trolls, not both. See what that does before more changes. Personal preference would be to leave trolls and look at Bobb.
    Coast -fix the damn bombers. Not sure if its feasible to lower their gunners accuracy as well?
    But I'd make small changes rather than nerfing a series of units.

    DWF v Helfs and against some others, as disposable said, they desperately need a unit with mass. Every other faction has some way to protect their lines, hell, even the cheapest, nastiest light cav unit can stop units from coming through. I personally don't want dawi to get monstrous units or a sem - I hope there is some alternative, but no doubt it's the easiest fix. Was hoping giant slayers could fulfill that purpose - considerably less models with more mass. Still hope thats the way to go.

    Helfs, for me as I mentioned in another thread, phoenix seem to be virtually immune to ranged fire. Stats, hit box or animation I don't know. The damage is almost incidental, the real issue issue is they can tie units in knots for ages. As a disrupter they are ridiculously good.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,845
    Green0 said:

    HE archers are some of the most expensive in the game while packing some of the longest range in the game, sure, but also some of the lowest AP values in the game. Not sure how we can classify their archers as “very cheap”.

    Wanna see cheap ranged units, look at Dwarf Rangers, Quarrelers or all the entry missile troops of Coast.

    Hell even GS archers while having more flaws than HE ones in some circumstances perform more adequately.

    I mean hate to burst your bubble but all those units you mentioned in the same range class are pricier. Yes better in some important ways but cheap is cheap.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,845

    I dont find anythign wrong that dwarfs have a hard match-up vs HE, i defiently think DWF vs HE is easier than DWF vs SKV. Nerf lion chariot a bit and tempest and the match up stays hard but nothing that bad.

    You don’t understand either matchup then I guess. High elves have a clear advantage with no fewer than three extreme build type options right now. You have to guess right and then also play better.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,845

    I dont find anythign wrong that dwarfs have a hard match-up vs HE, i defiently think DWF vs HE is easier than DWF vs SKV. Nerf lion chariot a bit and tempest and the match up stays hard but nothing that bad.

    Disagree. Skaven can be dealt with reliably using gyros if you have enough practice. HE is always a hit or miss, they have so much build variety
    Than we just disagree, my expierance with dwarfs has been that HE are not to hard to deal with and skv much harder, thoigh i got no idea why noone else except for me uses 5 BT build vs HE’s and clan angur, but fair enough if you find HE harder i dont.
    Massed artillery is in every dwarf Vs he build. You’re still not ready for complete massed infantry and complete healing chariot and complete archer spam.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,845
    Totally agree with folks if dwarfs had a giant slayer with anti chariot mass problems solved pretty much.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 9,971
    eumaies said:

    I dont find anythign wrong that dwarfs have a hard match-up vs HE, i defiently think DWF vs HE is easier than DWF vs SKV. Nerf lion chariot a bit and tempest and the match up stays hard but nothing that bad.

    Disagree. Skaven can be dealt with reliably using gyros if you have enough practice. HE is always a hit or miss, they have so much build variety
    Than we just disagree, my expierance with dwarfs has been that HE are not to hard to deal with and skv much harder, thoigh i got no idea why noone else except for me uses 5 BT build vs HE’s and clan angur, but fair enough if you find HE harder i dont.
    Massed artillery is in every dwarf Vs he build. You’re still not ready for complete massed infantry and complete healing chariot and complete archer spam.
    Sure you are, 5 BT smash ifnantry builds quite easy and chariots also, great as masss blockers jsut haev them at the front line vs chariot build.
  • griffithxigriffithxi Registered Users Posts: 932
    HE is one of the strongest missile infantry factions in the game.
    This is part of the reason why they do so well against other strong ranged factions like Vcoast and WE.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 9,971
    eumaies said:

    I dont find anythign wrong that dwarfs have a hard match-up vs HE, i defiently think DWF vs HE is easier than DWF vs SKV. Nerf lion chariot a bit and tempest and the match up stays hard but nothing that bad.

    You don’t understand either matchup then I guess. High elves have a clear advantage with no fewer than three extreme build type options right now. You have to guess right and then also play better.
    Other dwarf players i know and play dwarfs really well do agreee with me that HE is not that bad and SKV is horrible, so could very well be that you dont understand the match-up or perhaps we just had different experiences, like i said i base those statements on my experiences and oh what i seen, and i would play DWF into HE if i had to but i rather not into SKV.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,845

    eumaies said:

    I dont find anythign wrong that dwarfs have a hard match-up vs HE, i defiently think DWF vs HE is easier than DWF vs SKV. Nerf lion chariot a bit and tempest and the match up stays hard but nothing that bad.

    Disagree. Skaven can be dealt with reliably using gyros if you have enough practice. HE is always a hit or miss, they have so much build variety
    Than we just disagree, my expierance with dwarfs has been that HE are not to hard to deal with and skv much harder, thoigh i got no idea why noone else except for me uses 5 BT build vs HE’s and clan angur, but fair enough if you find HE harder i dont.
    Massed artillery is in every dwarf Vs he build. You’re still not ready for complete massed infantry and complete healing chariot and complete archer spam.
    Sure you are, 5 BT smash ifnantry builds quite easy and chariots also, great as masss blockers jsut haev them at the front line vs chariot build.
    Yup five bolt throwers counter any number of infantry and then also chariots have no choice but to fight right on top of them too. Genius.

    Look this isn’t complicated. Take a matchup that was relatively even (but still balanced in a stupid way) and then give high elves a 600 point line rusher while substantially buffing their white lions and giving them an additional chariot to boot.

    If you agree with me it was relatively even before there’s literally no way it isn’t lopsided now. The partial build you described isn’t robust to an infantry swarm build or to four chariots, unless you guess right in either direction, and then it’s an even fight at best. You won’t even engage with that logic.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 9,971
    edited September 3
    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    I dont find anythign wrong that dwarfs have a hard match-up vs HE, i defiently think DWF vs HE is easier than DWF vs SKV. Nerf lion chariot a bit and tempest and the match up stays hard but nothing that bad.

    Disagree. Skaven can be dealt with reliably using gyros if you have enough practice. HE is always a hit or miss, they have so much build variety
    Than we just disagree, my expierance with dwarfs has been that HE are not to hard to deal with and skv much harder, thoigh i got no idea why noone else except for me uses 5 BT build vs HE’s and clan angur, but fair enough if you find HE harder i dont.
    Massed artillery is in every dwarf Vs he build. You’re still not ready for complete massed infantry and complete healing chariot and complete archer spam.
    Sure you are, 5 BT smash ifnantry builds quite easy and chariots also, great as masss blockers jsut haev them at the front line vs chariot build.
    Yup five bolt throwers counter any number of infantry and then also chariots have no choice but to fight right on top of them too. Genius.

    Look this isn’t complicated. Take a matchup that was relatively even (but still balanced in a stupid way) and then give high elves a 600 point line rusher while substantially buffing their white lions and giving them an additional chariot to boot.

    If you agree with me it was relatively even before there’s literally no way it isn’t lopsided now. The partial build you described isn’t robust to an infantry swarm build or to four chariots, unless you guess right in either direction, and then it’s an even fight at best. You won’t even engage with that logic.
    Yep i agree it was even before, but i dont think the impact the DLC had is even as close to what you claim, the only part i do agree is the white lion chatios and if you see they are a unit i did single out to be nerfed.

    I dont think the match-up changed to loopsided at all in the DLC, thats where we disagree, i think it went from 55-45 to about 60-40 in HE favour, nerf teclis a bti and lion charitos and its back to where it was pre DLC in my view or there abouts.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,346

    HE is one of the strongest missile infantry factions in the game.
    This is part of the reason why they do so well against other strong ranged factions like Vcoast and WE.

    they have been losing hard in recent tournaments vs Coast.

    Coast actually outguns them at high level. Leyword high level.
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  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,845

    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    I dont find anythign wrong that dwarfs have a hard match-up vs HE, i defiently think DWF vs HE is easier than DWF vs SKV. Nerf lion chariot a bit and tempest and the match up stays hard but nothing that bad.

    Disagree. Skaven can be dealt with reliably using gyros if you have enough practice. HE is always a hit or miss, they have so much build variety
    Than we just disagree, my expierance with dwarfs has been that HE are not to hard to deal with and skv much harder, thoigh i got no idea why noone else except for me uses 5 BT build vs HE’s and clan angur, but fair enough if you find HE harder i dont.
    Massed artillery is in every dwarf Vs he build. You’re still not ready for complete massed infantry and complete healing chariot and complete archer spam.
    Sure you are, 5 BT smash ifnantry builds quite easy and chariots also, great as masss blockers jsut haev them at the front line vs chariot build.
    Yup five bolt throwers counter any number of infantry and then also chariots have no choice but to fight right on top of them too. Genius.

    Look this isn’t complicated. Take a matchup that was relatively even (but still balanced in a stupid way) and then give high elves a 600 point line rusher while substantially buffing their white lions and giving them an additional chariot to boot.

    If you agree with me it was relatively even before there’s literally no way it isn’t lopsided now. The partial build you described isn’t robust to an infantry swarm build or to four chariots, unless you guess right in either direction, and then it’s an even fight at best. You won’t even engage with that logic.
    Yep i agree it was even before, but i dont think the impact the DLC had is even as close to what you claim, the only part i do agree is the white lion chatios and if you see they are a unit i did single out to be nerfed.

    I dont think the match-up changed to loopsided at all in the DLC, thats where we disagree, i think it went from 55-45 to about 60-40 in HE favour, nerf teclis a bti and lion charitos and its back to where it was pre DLC in my view or there abouts.
    Why do you think a 600 point fast anti infantry unit that cost effectively beats everything of equivalent cost didn’t change the matchup? Longbeards are are a losing proposition for other reasons so hammerers are basically all you got. Also, white lion buff is self evident. And yet you think only the chariots changed things?

    Look I win this all the time on qb I’m not saying there’s no good builds but I’m discussing what an expert he player can do using builds that properly exploit the advantage.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 8,171
    edited September 3
    White lions will destroy everything dwf got apart from hammerers and ironbreakers. Both of which r absolutely garbage that gets run over by chariots hard. Then u got those stupid overtuned rangers with 70 ld

    One of those stupid designs where they completely outclass corsairs, have higher ld, hp all along costing less.

    Then they decide its a great idea to give a 82 speed chariot 30% missile resist lol, and those same bunch whinging about stonetrolls, hilarious
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  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,346
    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    I dont find anythign wrong that dwarfs have a hard match-up vs HE, i defiently think DWF vs HE is easier than DWF vs SKV. Nerf lion chariot a bit and tempest and the match up stays hard but nothing that bad.

    Disagree. Skaven can be dealt with reliably using gyros if you have enough practice. HE is always a hit or miss, they have so much build variety
    Than we just disagree, my expierance with dwarfs has been that HE are not to hard to deal with and skv much harder, thoigh i got no idea why noone else except for me uses 5 BT build vs HE’s and clan angur, but fair enough if you find HE harder i dont.
    Massed artillery is in every dwarf Vs he build. You’re still not ready for complete massed infantry and complete healing chariot and complete archer spam.
    Sure you are, 5 BT smash ifnantry builds quite easy and chariots also, great as masss blockers jsut haev them at the front line vs chariot build.
    Yup five bolt throwers counter any number of infantry and then also chariots have no choice but to fight right on top of them too. Genius.

    Look this isn’t complicated. Take a matchup that was relatively even (but still balanced in a stupid way) and then give high elves a 600 point line rusher while substantially buffing their white lions and giving them an additional chariot to boot.

    If you agree with me it was relatively even before there’s literally no way it isn’t lopsided now. The partial build you described isn’t robust to an infantry swarm build or to four chariots, unless you guess right in either direction, and then it’s an even fight at best. You won’t even engage with that logic.
    Yep i agree it was even before, but i dont think the impact the DLC had is even as close to what you claim, the only part i do agree is the white lion chatios and if you see they are a unit i did single out to be nerfed.

    I dont think the match-up changed to loopsided at all in the DLC, thats where we disagree, i think it went from 55-45 to about 60-40 in HE favour, nerf teclis a bti and lion charitos and its back to where it was pre DLC in my view or there abouts.
    Why do you think a 600 point fast anti infantry unit that cost effectively beats everything of equivalent cost didn’t change the matchup? Longbeards are are a losing proposition for other reasons so hammerers are basically all you got. Also, white lion buff is self evident. And yet you think only the chariots changed things?

    Look I win this all the time on qb I’m not saying there’s no good builds but I’m discussing what an expert he player can do using builds that properly exploit the advantage.
    matchups are not won or lost based on how infantry trades solely, the sooner you accept this notion, the sooner you will realize not everything is OP as you think. You always fail to take roster balancing as a whole into consideration and also how a matchup also plays out into account.

    For example, should HE Archers get a buff? They trade very horribly vs Quarrelers because not only do they deal with 80 armor but they also deal with a bronze shield.

    Should Bolt Throwers get a buff? For 700g, which is only 100g less than a 800g Dwarven Cannon, they lose (from past tests) about 80-85% of the times to Dwarven Cannons while sniping 0-1 Cannons back.

    Or, maybe, we could accept that the game is not only about 1v1 considerations, and that you win some you lose some.

    It seems very hypocritical to quote only the favorable 1v1s while ignoring the unfavorable ones as it doesn't suit the agenda.
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,346
    edited September 3
    Anyway, in the case of Rangers, their melee stats don't matter in the end. You might give them a -2/-2 MA/MD and still they would be picked vs Dwarves. What you're experiencing is not the stats being too good for the cost, you're really experiencing wide builds being fairly good vs gunline builds, it's true of ALL gunline builds. Try to bring a 20 stack of Skeletons and Grave Guards vs an Empire gunline, you have the same result. So which is it? Skeletons OP also because at some point you don't have enough melee units to contest them and the extra Skeleton units manage to flank your Handgunners?

    White Lions globally as I said were both underpicked and underperformed vs units that they were meant to beat or at least trade well into, such as CW GW, Saurus (shields) and Tomb Guard. Now, they still lose to CW GW, lose to Saurus and win vs TG. I'd say this is a fair outcome though again I'm sure you can test some rank 7 White Lions vs rank 5.5 Chaos Warriors GW that ran across the map called MP Crossroads (to represent them paying for the lower speed which is a claim you love to make often) and then jump to conclusions on which unit should win according to which faction allegedly you wanna classify as "melee faction".
    mightygloin_fan_1
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