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  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,854
    No, actually if rangers were less effective in Melee combat that would actually matter in how they trade Vs dwarf warriors for example.

    The question of how overly strong rangers are is it’s own worthy topic relevant to lots of matchups.

    That aside you’re deflecting from lotuses non answer as to how these infantry upgrades somehow didn’t affect the dwarf matchup.

    And as for fixing the matchup, as people have said you could tackle it via higher mass dwarf anti chariot unit or you could tackle it in other areas such as the he infantry.

    I’m so glad you weren’t trying to be insulting. You should try reading the thread next time. You can do it!
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 7,553
    How to fix dwarfs give bretonnia a dlc ideally since after that i expect that HE will also have just as bad MU.

    But realistically dwarf need dlc He have two dlc and Dwarf have 1 dlc.
    But nerfing units that are not included in the dlc because how dlc it self change the MU is unfair to players who don't own dlc.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,591
    edited September 3
    eumaies said:

    No, actually if rangers were less effective in Melee combat that would actually matter in how they trade Vs dwarf warriors for example.

    The question of how overly strong rangers are is it’s own worthy topic relevant to lots of matchups.

    That aside you’re deflecting from lotuses non answer as to how these infantry upgrades somehow didn’t affect the dwarf matchup.

    And as for fixing the matchup, as people have said you could tackle it via higher mass dwarf anti chariot unit or you could tackle it in other areas such as the he infantry.

    I’m so glad you weren’t trying to be insulting. You should try reading the thread next time. You can do it!

    I can see where he's coming from, in fact what I consider my best build vs dawi has 0 rangers in it because they are not needed. The buff to WL means more afaic, but that's not what breaks the camels back either if you ask me. Ability to cost efficiently win the artillery duel however is really impactful for me, that is the key to messing up most dawi counter-builds.
  • littlenukelittlenuke Registered Users Posts: 422

    eumaies said:

    No, actually if rangers were less effective in Melee combat that would actually matter in how they trade Vs dwarf warriors for example.

    The question of how overly strong rangers are is it’s own worthy topic relevant to lots of matchups.

    That aside you’re deflecting from lotuses non answer as to how these infantry upgrades somehow didn’t affect the dwarf matchup.

    And as for fixing the matchup, as people have said you could tackle it via higher mass dwarf anti chariot unit or you could tackle it in other areas such as the he infantry.

    I’m so glad you weren’t trying to be insulting. You should try reading the thread next time. You can do it!

    I can see where he's coming from, in fact what I consider my best build vs dawi has 0 rangers in it because they are not needed. The buff to WL means more afaic, but that's not what breaks the camels back either if you ask me. Ability to cost efficiently win the artillery duel however is really impactful for me, that is the key to messing up most dawi counter-builds.
    weather you personally use it or not doesnt change how it gives an extra option to prepare for. you can take rangers, white lions, swordmasters and all will work. you can take mass archers. that can work. you can SEM spam. that can work or you can chariot spam. that also works.
    Karaz-A-Karak discord: https://discord.gg/UZV6F5N
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 9,972
    edited September 4
    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    I dont find anythign wrong that dwarfs have a hard match-up vs HE, i defiently think DWF vs HE is easier than DWF vs SKV. Nerf lion chariot a bit and tempest and the match up stays hard but nothing that bad.

    Disagree. Skaven can be dealt with reliably using gyros if you have enough practice. HE is always a hit or miss, they have so much build variety
    Than we just disagree, my expierance with dwarfs has been that HE are not to hard to deal with and skv much harder, thoigh i got no idea why noone else except for me uses 5 BT build vs HE’s and clan angur, but fair enough if you find HE harder i dont.
    Massed artillery is in every dwarf Vs he build. You’re still not ready for complete massed infantry and complete healing chariot and complete archer spam.
    Sure you are, 5 BT smash ifnantry builds quite easy and chariots also, great as masss blockers jsut haev them at the front line vs chariot build.
    Yup five bolt throwers counter any number of infantry and then also chariots have no choice but to fight right on top of them too. Genius.

    Look this isn’t complicated. Take a matchup that was relatively even (but still balanced in a stupid way) and then give high elves a 600 point line rusher while substantially buffing their white lions and giving them an additional chariot to boot.

    If you agree with me it was relatively even before there’s literally no way it isn’t lopsided now. The partial build you described isn’t robust to an infantry swarm build or to four chariots, unless you guess right in either direction, and then it’s an even fight at best. You won’t even engage with that logic.
    Yep i agree it was even before, but i dont think the impact the DLC had is even as close to what you claim, the only part i do agree is the white lion chatios and if you see they are a unit i did single out to be nerfed.

    I dont think the match-up changed to loopsided at all in the DLC, thats where we disagree, i think it went from 55-45 to about 60-40 in HE favour, nerf teclis a bti and lion charitos and its back to where it was pre DLC in my view or there abouts.
    Why do you think a 600 point fast anti infantry unit that cost effectively beats everything of equivalent cost didn’t change the matchup? Longbeards are are a losing proposition for other reasons so hammerers are basically all you got. Also, white lion buff is self evident. And yet you think only the chariots changed things?

    Look I win this all the time on qb I’m not saying there’s no good builds but I’m discussing what an expert he player can do using builds that properly exploit the advantage.
    I use LB GW here and they trade really well into rangers and WL so absolutely nothing changed for me here, its why i dont think any of those changes impacted the match-up, the stuff i took pre patch is good vs the new stuff, only consideration I need now is lion chariots.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,854

    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    I dont find anythign wrong that dwarfs have a hard match-up vs HE, i defiently think DWF vs HE is easier than DWF vs SKV. Nerf lion chariot a bit and tempest and the match up stays hard but nothing that bad.

    Disagree. Skaven can be dealt with reliably using gyros if you have enough practice. HE is always a hit or miss, they have so much build variety
    Than we just disagree, my expierance with dwarfs has been that HE are not to hard to deal with and skv much harder, thoigh i got no idea why noone else except for me uses 5 BT build vs HE’s and clan angur, but fair enough if you find HE harder i dont.
    Massed artillery is in every dwarf Vs he build. You’re still not ready for complete massed infantry and complete healing chariot and complete archer spam.
    Sure you are, 5 BT smash ifnantry builds quite easy and chariots also, great as masss blockers jsut haev them at the front line vs chariot build.
    Yup five bolt throwers counter any number of infantry and then also chariots have no choice but to fight right on top of them too. Genius.

    Look this isn’t complicated. Take a matchup that was relatively even (but still balanced in a stupid way) and then give high elves a 600 point line rusher while substantially buffing their white lions and giving them an additional chariot to boot.

    If you agree with me it was relatively even before there’s literally no way it isn’t lopsided now. The partial build you described isn’t robust to an infantry swarm build or to four chariots, unless you guess right in either direction, and then it’s an even fight at best. You won’t even engage with that logic.
    Yep i agree it was even before, but i dont think the impact the DLC had is even as close to what you claim, the only part i do agree is the white lion chatios and if you see they are a unit i did single out to be nerfed.

    I dont think the match-up changed to loopsided at all in the DLC, thats where we disagree, i think it went from 55-45 to about 60-40 in HE favour, nerf teclis a bti and lion charitos and its back to where it was pre DLC in my view or there abouts.
    Why do you think a 600 point fast anti infantry unit that cost effectively beats everything of equivalent cost didn’t change the matchup? Longbeards are are a losing proposition for other reasons so hammerers are basically all you got. Also, white lion buff is self evident. And yet you think only the chariots changed things?

    Look I win this all the time on qb I’m not saying there’s no good builds but I’m discussing what an expert he player can do using builds that properly exploit the advantage.
    I use LB GW here and they trade really well into rangers and WL so absolutely nothing changed for me here, its why i dont think any of those changes impacted the match-up, the stuff i took pre patch is good vs the new stuff, only consideration I need now is lion chariots.
    I mean you’re taking a points loss in both cases but not much more to say. Just about the worst unit for cost effectively taking out units with martial prowess.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 9,972
    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    I dont find anythign wrong that dwarfs have a hard match-up vs HE, i defiently think DWF vs HE is easier than DWF vs SKV. Nerf lion chariot a bit and tempest and the match up stays hard but nothing that bad.

    Disagree. Skaven can be dealt with reliably using gyros if you have enough practice. HE is always a hit or miss, they have so much build variety
    Than we just disagree, my expierance with dwarfs has been that HE are not to hard to deal with and skv much harder, thoigh i got no idea why noone else except for me uses 5 BT build vs HE’s and clan angur, but fair enough if you find HE harder i dont.
    Massed artillery is in every dwarf Vs he build. You’re still not ready for complete massed infantry and complete healing chariot and complete archer spam.
    Sure you are, 5 BT smash ifnantry builds quite easy and chariots also, great as masss blockers jsut haev them at the front line vs chariot build.
    Yup five bolt throwers counter any number of infantry and then also chariots have no choice but to fight right on top of them too. Genius.

    Look this isn’t complicated. Take a matchup that was relatively even (but still balanced in a stupid way) and then give high elves a 600 point line rusher while substantially buffing their white lions and giving them an additional chariot to boot.

    If you agree with me it was relatively even before there’s literally no way it isn’t lopsided now. The partial build you described isn’t robust to an infantry swarm build or to four chariots, unless you guess right in either direction, and then it’s an even fight at best. You won’t even engage with that logic.
    Yep i agree it was even before, but i dont think the impact the DLC had is even as close to what you claim, the only part i do agree is the white lion chatios and if you see they are a unit i did single out to be nerfed.

    I dont think the match-up changed to loopsided at all in the DLC, thats where we disagree, i think it went from 55-45 to about 60-40 in HE favour, nerf teclis a bti and lion charitos and its back to where it was pre DLC in my view or there abouts.
    Why do you think a 600 point fast anti infantry unit that cost effectively beats everything of equivalent cost didn’t change the matchup? Longbeards are are a losing proposition for other reasons so hammerers are basically all you got. Also, white lion buff is self evident. And yet you think only the chariots changed things?

    Look I win this all the time on qb I’m not saying there’s no good builds but I’m discussing what an expert he player can do using builds that properly exploit the advantage.
    I use LB GW here and they trade really well into rangers and WL so absolutely nothing changed for me here, its why i dont think any of those changes impacted the match-up, the stuff i took pre patch is good vs the new stuff, only consideration I need now is lion chariots.
    I mean you’re taking a points loss in both cases but not much more to say. Just about the worst unit for cost effectively taking out units with martial prowess.
    Yeah i really dont agree here, i did tests LB GW vs WL and seems a nice balanced cost trade (not accounting for speed though, which is not needed in the set up i have).
  • dge1dge1 Moderator Arkansas, USARegistered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 20,583
    Posts removed. Get back on topic folks.
    "The two most common things in the universe are Hydrogen and Stupidity." - Harlan Ellison
    "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." - Hubert H. Humphrey
    "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin/Mark Twain
  • AnalogAnalog Registered Users Posts: 243

    eumaies said:

    No, actually if rangers were less effective in Melee combat that would actually matter in how they trade Vs dwarf warriors for example.

    The question of how overly strong rangers are is it’s own worthy topic relevant to lots of matchups.

    That aside you’re deflecting from lotuses non answer as to how these infantry upgrades somehow didn’t affect the dwarf matchup.

    And as for fixing the matchup, as people have said you could tackle it via higher mass dwarf anti chariot unit or you could tackle it in other areas such as the he infantry.

    I’m so glad you weren’t trying to be insulting. You should try reading the thread next time. You can do it!

    I can see where he's coming from, in fact what I consider my best build vs dawi has 0 rangers in it because they are not needed. The buff to WL means more afaic, but that's not what breaks the camels back either if you ask me. Ability to cost efficiently win the artillery duel however is really impactful for me, that is the key to messing up most dawi counter-builds.
    weather you personally use it or not doesnt change how it gives an extra option to prepare for. you can take rangers, white lions, swordmasters and all will work. you can take mass archers. that can work. you can SEM spam. that can work or you can chariot spam. that also works.
    This is not a factor that is unique to the HE though.
    There are a variety of factions that can play with this kind of build diversity in a variety of matchups, the Skaven, EMpire and De are the three that come to mind but the LZM to some extent too.
    If the argument is uncertainty in what your likely to face, and that this is a problem, it must also be a problem for some of these other factions equally capable of surprising you on their build options.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,854
    edited September 4
    It’s unique to high elves and this matchup because a chariot with healing can kill an extreme order of magnitude more than its value in infantry in any normal game scenario. This isn’t about counterpicks in the sense of being disadvantaged - it’s about a matchups that’s decided at start.

    Then the other counterpicks all flow from that reality. None of the high elf optimal build options require any risk for the high elf side of this matchup. All of the dwarf builds are a coin toss between a definite loss and a fighting chance.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,854
    Of course there are plenty of broken matchups in this game. We just happen to be discussing this one. Dwarf empire with tourney army limits is similarly lopsided though that’s more of a death by a thousand inferior units situation.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,854


    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    I dont find anythign wrong that dwarfs have a hard match-up vs HE, i defiently think DWF vs HE is easier than DWF vs SKV. Nerf lion chariot a bit and tempest and the match up stays hard but nothing that bad.

    Disagree. Skaven can be dealt with reliably using gyros if you have enough practice. HE is always a hit or miss, they have so much build variety
    Than we just disagree, my expierance with dwarfs has been that HE are not to hard to deal with and skv much harder, thoigh i got no idea why noone else except for me uses 5 BT build vs HE’s and clan angur, but fair enough if you find HE harder i dont.
    Massed artillery is in every dwarf Vs he build. You’re still not ready for complete massed infantry and complete healing chariot and complete archer spam.
    Sure you are, 5 BT smash ifnantry builds quite easy and chariots also, great as masss blockers jsut haev them at the front line vs chariot build.
    Yup five bolt throwers counter any number of infantry and then also chariots have no choice but to fight right on top of them too. Genius.

    Look this isn’t complicated. Take a matchup that was relatively even (but still balanced in a stupid way) and then give high elves a 600 point line rusher while substantially buffing their white lions and giving them an additional chariot to boot.

    If you agree with me it was relatively even before there’s literally no way it isn’t lopsided now. The partial build you described isn’t robust to an infantry swarm build or to four chariots, unless you guess right in either direction, and then it’s an even fight at best. You won’t even engage with that logic.
    Yep i agree it was even before, but i dont think the impact the DLC had is even as close to what you claim, the only part i do agree is the white lion chatios and if you see they are a unit i did single out to be nerfed.

    I dont think the match-up changed to loopsided at all in the DLC, thats where we disagree, i think it went from 55-45 to about 60-40 in HE favour, nerf teclis a bti and lion charitos and its back to where it was pre DLC in my view or there abouts.
    Why do you think a 600 point fast anti infantry unit that cost effectively beats everything of equivalent cost didn’t change the matchup? Longbeards are are a losing proposition for other reasons so hammerers are basically all you got. Also, white lion buff is self evident. And yet you think only the chariots changed things?

    Look I win this all the time on qb I’m not saying there’s no good builds but I’m discussing what an expert he player can do using builds that properly exploit the advantage.
    I use LB GW here and they trade really well into rangers and WL so absolutely nothing changed for me here, its why i dont think any of those changes impacted the match-up, the stuff i took pre patch is good vs the new stuff, only consideration I need now is lion chariots.
    I mean you’re taking a points loss in both cases but not much more to say. Just about the worst unit for cost effectively taking out units with martial prowess.
    Yeah i really dont agree here, i did tests LB GW vs WL and seems a nice balanced cost trade (not accounting for speed though, which is not needed in the set up i have).
    I’ll share some tests when I get around to that.

    In addition to accepting the cost inneficiency in your unit choice your point doesn’t address the relevance of rangers. Where before you could face five white lions and perhaps spears or a few swordmasters as a rush you can now face an actual all-superior quality infantry swarm rush with units that outtrade yours and will pick their targets. The simple and obvious change is a spread ranged build can no longer rely on the former gap in the high elf roster.

    But sure all of this plus a chariot option that’s robust to ranged fire and you tell yourself the shift in the matchup was 55/45 to 60/40. Quite a story.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 7,553
    eumaies said:


    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    I dont find anythign wrong that dwarfs have a hard match-up vs HE, i defiently think DWF vs HE is easier than DWF vs SKV. Nerf lion chariot a bit and tempest and the match up stays hard but nothing that bad.

    Disagree. Skaven can be dealt with reliably using gyros if you have enough practice. HE is always a hit or miss, they have so much build variety
    Than we just disagree, my expierance with dwarfs has been that HE are not to hard to deal with and skv much harder, thoigh i got no idea why noone else except for me uses 5 BT build vs HE’s and clan angur, but fair enough if you find HE harder i dont.
    Massed artillery is in every dwarf Vs he build. You’re still not ready for complete massed infantry and complete healing chariot and complete archer spam.
    Sure you are, 5 BT smash ifnantry builds quite easy and chariots also, great as masss blockers jsut haev them at the front line vs chariot build.
    Yup five bolt throwers counter any number of infantry and then also chariots have no choice but to fight right on top of them too. Genius.

    Look this isn’t complicated. Take a matchup that was relatively even (but still balanced in a stupid way) and then give high elves a 600 point line rusher while substantially buffing their white lions and giving them an additional chariot to boot.

    If you agree with me it was relatively even before there’s literally no way it isn’t lopsided now. The partial build you described isn’t robust to an infantry swarm build or to four chariots, unless you guess right in either direction, and then it’s an even fight at best. You won’t even engage with that logic.
    Yep i agree it was even before, but i dont think the impact the DLC had is even as close to what you claim, the only part i do agree is the white lion chatios and if you see they are a unit i did single out to be nerfed.

    I dont think the match-up changed to loopsided at all in the DLC, thats where we disagree, i think it went from 55-45 to about 60-40 in HE favour, nerf teclis a bti and lion charitos and its back to where it was pre DLC in my view or there abouts.
    Why do you think a 600 point fast anti infantry unit that cost effectively beats everything of equivalent cost didn’t change the matchup? Longbeards are are a losing proposition for other reasons so hammerers are basically all you got. Also, white lion buff is self evident. And yet you think only the chariots changed things?

    Look I win this all the time on qb I’m not saying there’s no good builds but I’m discussing what an expert he player can do using builds that properly exploit the advantage.
    I use LB GW here and they trade really well into rangers and WL so absolutely nothing changed for me here, its why i dont think any of those changes impacted the match-up, the stuff i took pre patch is good vs the new stuff, only consideration I need now is lion chariots.
    I mean you’re taking a points loss in both cases but not much more to say. Just about the worst unit for cost effectively taking out units with martial prowess.
    Yeah i really dont agree here, i did tests LB GW vs WL and seems a nice balanced cost trade (not accounting for speed though, which is not needed in the set up i have).
    I’ll share some tests when I get around to that.

    In addition to accepting the cost inneficiency in your unit choice your point doesn’t address the relevance of rangers. Where before you could face five white lions and perhaps spears or a few swordmasters as a rush you can now face an actual all-superior quality infantry swarm rush with units that outtrade yours and will pick their targets. The simple and obvious change is a spread ranged build can no longer rely on the former gap in the high elf roster.

    But sure all of this plus a chariot option that’s robust to ranged fire and you tell yourself the shift in the matchup was 55/45 to 60/40. Quite a story.
    I feel for dwarfs but how much does WL chariot effect other match ups out side of that mu?

    Because i don't think we can go around nerfing units in the end if they are overperforming in one mu.

    That goes for me as well and my whinning on prometheans with hand guns as well.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • AnalogAnalog Registered Users Posts: 243
    eumaies said:


    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    I dont find anythign wrong that dwarfs have a hard match-up vs HE, i defiently think DWF vs HE is easier than DWF vs SKV. Nerf lion chariot a bit and tempest and the match up stays hard but nothing that bad.

    Disagree. Skaven can be dealt with reliably using gyros if you have enough practice. HE is always a hit or miss, they have so much build variety
    Than we just disagree, my expierance with dwarfs has been that HE are not to hard to deal with and skv much harder, thoigh i got no idea why noone else except for me uses 5 BT build vs HE’s and clan angur, but fair enough if you find HE harder i dont.
    Massed artillery is in every dwarf Vs he build. You’re still not ready for complete massed infantry and complete healing chariot and complete archer spam.
    Sure you are, 5 BT smash ifnantry builds quite easy and chariots also, great as masss blockers jsut haev them at the front line vs chariot build.
    Yup five bolt throwers counter any number of infantry and then also chariots have no choice but to fight right on top of them too. Genius.

    Look this isn’t complicated. Take a matchup that was relatively even (but still balanced in a stupid way) and then give high elves a 600 point line rusher while substantially buffing their white lions and giving them an additional chariot to boot.

    If you agree with me it was relatively even before there’s literally no way it isn’t lopsided now. The partial build you described isn’t robust to an infantry swarm build or to four chariots, unless you guess right in either direction, and then it’s an even fight at best. You won’t even engage with that logic.
    Yep i agree it was even before, but i dont think the impact the DLC had is even as close to what you claim, the only part i do agree is the white lion chatios and if you see they are a unit i did single out to be nerfed.

    I dont think the match-up changed to loopsided at all in the DLC, thats where we disagree, i think it went from 55-45 to about 60-40 in HE favour, nerf teclis a bti and lion charitos and its back to where it was pre DLC in my view or there abouts.
    Why do you think a 600 point fast anti infantry unit that cost effectively beats everything of equivalent cost didn’t change the matchup? Longbeards are are a losing proposition for other reasons so hammerers are basically all you got. Also, white lion buff is self evident. And yet you think only the chariots changed things?

    Look I win this all the time on qb I’m not saying there’s no good builds but I’m discussing what an expert he player can do using builds that properly exploit the advantage.
    I use LB GW here and they trade really well into rangers and WL so absolutely nothing changed for me here, its why i dont think any of those changes impacted the match-up, the stuff i took pre patch is good vs the new stuff, only consideration I need now is lion chariots.
    I mean you’re taking a points loss in both cases but not much more to say. Just about the worst unit for cost effectively taking out units with martial prowess.
    Yeah i really dont agree here, i did tests LB GW vs WL and seems a nice balanced cost trade (not accounting for speed though, which is not needed in the set up i have).
    I’ll share some tests when I get around to that.

    In addition to accepting the cost inneficiency in your unit choice your point doesn’t address the relevance of rangers. Where before you could face five white lions and perhaps spears or a few swordmasters as a rush you can now face an actual all-superior quality infantry swarm rush with units that outtrade yours and will pick their targets. The simple and obvious change is a spread ranged build can no longer rely on the former gap in the high elf roster.

    But sure all of this plus a chariot option that’s robust to ranged fire and you tell yourself the shift in the matchup was 55/45 to 60/40. Quite a story.
    HE Infantry is capable of outclassing the Dwarf kit to be sure, but they are not the only faction capable of doing this,
    I also do not subscribe to the idea that Rangers were the big shakeup here, The 'all-superior quality' was sword masters and white lions, this hasn't really changed.

    Its also worth noting that at least in my experience, the exact opposite is true for the ranged fight, in that, the HE dont stand a chance. Dwarven range power trumps anything the HE can bring to the table.

    Theres an argument to be made that the White lion chariot is OP, certainly its unusual that its speed isnt any different from War Lions (Which is to say, you would really think pulling the chariots would slow them down a bit).

    But i dont think this one match up calls for nerfs to HE Infantry.

  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 9,972
    eumaies said:


    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    I dont find anythign wrong that dwarfs have a hard match-up vs HE, i defiently think DWF vs HE is easier than DWF vs SKV. Nerf lion chariot a bit and tempest and the match up stays hard but nothing that bad.

    Disagree. Skaven can be dealt with reliably using gyros if you have enough practice. HE is always a hit or miss, they have so much build variety
    Than we just disagree, my expierance with dwarfs has been that HE are not to hard to deal with and skv much harder, thoigh i got no idea why noone else except for me uses 5 BT build vs HE’s and clan angur, but fair enough if you find HE harder i dont.
    Massed artillery is in every dwarf Vs he build. You’re still not ready for complete massed infantry and complete healing chariot and complete archer spam.
    Sure you are, 5 BT smash ifnantry builds quite easy and chariots also, great as masss blockers jsut haev them at the front line vs chariot build.
    Yup five bolt throwers counter any number of infantry and then also chariots have no choice but to fight right on top of them too. Genius.

    Look this isn’t complicated. Take a matchup that was relatively even (but still balanced in a stupid way) and then give high elves a 600 point line rusher while substantially buffing their white lions and giving them an additional chariot to boot.

    If you agree with me it was relatively even before there’s literally no way it isn’t lopsided now. The partial build you described isn’t robust to an infantry swarm build or to four chariots, unless you guess right in either direction, and then it’s an even fight at best. You won’t even engage with that logic.
    Yep i agree it was even before, but i dont think the impact the DLC had is even as close to what you claim, the only part i do agree is the white lion chatios and if you see they are a unit i did single out to be nerfed.

    I dont think the match-up changed to loopsided at all in the DLC, thats where we disagree, i think it went from 55-45 to about 60-40 in HE favour, nerf teclis a bti and lion charitos and its back to where it was pre DLC in my view or there abouts.
    Why do you think a 600 point fast anti infantry unit that cost effectively beats everything of equivalent cost didn’t change the matchup? Longbeards are are a losing proposition for other reasons so hammerers are basically all you got. Also, white lion buff is self evident. And yet you think only the chariots changed things?

    Look I win this all the time on qb I’m not saying there’s no good builds but I’m discussing what an expert he player can do using builds that properly exploit the advantage.
    I use LB GW here and they trade really well into rangers and WL so absolutely nothing changed for me here, its why i dont think any of those changes impacted the match-up, the stuff i took pre patch is good vs the new stuff, only consideration I need now is lion chariots.
    I mean you’re taking a points loss in both cases but not much more to say. Just about the worst unit for cost effectively taking out units with martial prowess.
    Yeah i really dont agree here, i did tests LB GW vs WL and seems a nice balanced cost trade (not accounting for speed though, which is not needed in the set up i have).
    I’ll share some tests when I get around to that.

    In addition to accepting the cost inneficiency in your unit choice your point doesn’t address the relevance of rangers. Where before you could face five white lions and perhaps spears or a few swordmasters as a rush you can now face an actual all-superior quality infantry swarm rush with units that outtrade yours and will pick their targets. The simple and obvious change is a spread ranged build can no longer rely on the former gap in the high elf roster.

    But sure all of this plus a chariot option that’s robust to ranged fire and you tell yourself the shift in the matchup was 55/45 to 60/40. Quite a story.
    For rangers to change this Match-up they would need to perfrom in some areas better than WL dl because if they so not, heavy WL army was Already a common pick and what you describe a mix of WL and Rangers in my view is just a down Grade, especially since max WL taken went from 6 to 5 now due to ror taking a spot got fixed. I pretty much put rangers and WL changes as 0 impact compared to pre patch, where i put the impact is the fact that you dont need noble chariots now and can use WL ones or can take both. What has impact is you can take a 2nd mage now and still have chariot power due to new chariots.

    As for first part of the statement i dont accept cost Inefficiency when i pick LB GW because i find they trade very correctly to WL and Rangers for their cost.
  • littlenukelittlenuke Registered Users Posts: 422
    Analog said:

    eumaies said:


    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    I dont find anythign wrong that dwarfs have a hard match-up vs HE, i defiently think DWF vs HE is easier than DWF vs SKV. Nerf lion chariot a bit and tempest and the match up stays hard but nothing that bad.

    Disagree. Skaven can be dealt with reliably using gyros if you have enough practice. HE is always a hit or miss, they have so much build variety
    Than we just disagree, my expierance with dwarfs has been that HE are not to hard to deal with and skv much harder, thoigh i got no idea why noone else except for me uses 5 BT build vs HE’s and clan angur, but fair enough if you find HE harder i dont.
    Massed artillery is in every dwarf Vs he build. You’re still not ready for complete massed infantry and complete healing chariot and complete archer spam.
    Sure you are, 5 BT smash ifnantry builds quite easy and chariots also, great as masss blockers jsut haev them at the front line vs chariot build.
    Yup five bolt throwers counter any number of infantry and then also chariots have no choice but to fight right on top of them too. Genius.

    Look this isn’t complicated. Take a matchup that was relatively even (but still balanced in a stupid way) and then give high elves a 600 point line rusher while substantially buffing their white lions and giving them an additional chariot to boot.

    If you agree with me it was relatively even before there’s literally no way it isn’t lopsided now. The partial build you described isn’t robust to an infantry swarm build or to four chariots, unless you guess right in either direction, and then it’s an even fight at best. You won’t even engage with that logic.
    Yep i agree it was even before, but i dont think the impact the DLC had is even as close to what you claim, the only part i do agree is the white lion chatios and if you see they are a unit i did single out to be nerfed.

    I dont think the match-up changed to loopsided at all in the DLC, thats where we disagree, i think it went from 55-45 to about 60-40 in HE favour, nerf teclis a bti and lion charitos and its back to where it was pre DLC in my view or there abouts.
    Why do you think a 600 point fast anti infantry unit that cost effectively beats everything of equivalent cost didn’t change the matchup? Longbeards are are a losing proposition for other reasons so hammerers are basically all you got. Also, white lion buff is self evident. And yet you think only the chariots changed things?

    Look I win this all the time on qb I’m not saying there’s no good builds but I’m discussing what an expert he player can do using builds that properly exploit the advantage.
    I use LB GW here and they trade really well into rangers and WL so absolutely nothing changed for me here, its why i dont think any of those changes impacted the match-up, the stuff i took pre patch is good vs the new stuff, only consideration I need now is lion chariots.
    I mean you’re taking a points loss in both cases but not much more to say. Just about the worst unit for cost effectively taking out units with martial prowess.
    Yeah i really dont agree here, i did tests LB GW vs WL and seems a nice balanced cost trade (not accounting for speed though, which is not needed in the set up i have).
    I’ll share some tests when I get around to that.

    In addition to accepting the cost inneficiency in your unit choice your point doesn’t address the relevance of rangers. Where before you could face five white lions and perhaps spears or a few swordmasters as a rush you can now face an actual all-superior quality infantry swarm rush with units that outtrade yours and will pick their targets. The simple and obvious change is a spread ranged build can no longer rely on the former gap in the high elf roster.

    But sure all of this plus a chariot option that’s robust to ranged fire and you tell yourself the shift in the matchup was 55/45 to 60/40. Quite a story.
    HE Infantry is capable of outclassing the Dwarf kit to be sure, but they are not the only faction capable of doing this,
    I also do not subscribe to the idea that Rangers were the big shakeup here, The 'all-superior quality' was sword masters and white lions, this hasn't really changed.

    Its also worth noting that at least in my experience, the exact opposite is true for the ranged fight, in that, the HE dont stand a chance. Dwarven range power trumps anything the HE can bring to the table.

    Theres an argument to be made that the White lion chariot is OP, certainly its unusual that its speed isnt any different from War Lions (Which is to say, you would really think pulling the chariots would slow them down a bit).

    But i dont think this one match up calls for nerfs to HE Infantry.

    Its not about rangers by themselves turning the matchup. Its about white lions being buffed, fast high hp missile resist chariots being added AND a new cost effective infantry killer that trades well with low teir troops, forcing you to go more elite and narrower. Now surprise surprise this gives the chariots more valuable things to eat and archers more valuable things to shoot.

    Take warriors gw for example. It used to be that they either lose to WLs but by you a little time, or win vs spears. Now instead of spears its usually rangers. So now they lose to WL and lose to rangers which is a crappy situation across the board.

    On top of that they can bring mass archers, so the hammerers or LB gw can get hammererd from the start. Or they cna bring shadow warriors and alith to snipe cannons forcing you to advance and be kited by with mediocre missile magnet troops. Or they can bring 4 chariots with healing which mincemeat anything they touch. Then they can bring dragons or pheonixes or footlords (eg tyrion) to kill your infantry faster ect ect.

    How do you prepare for all those possibe scenarios? You cant. Its a coin toss. Either your build wins and has a fighting chance or its dead in army selection
    Karaz-A-Karak discord: https://discord.gg/UZV6F5N
  • AnalogAnalog Registered Users Posts: 243

    Analog said:

    eumaies said:


    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    I dont find anythign wrong that dwarfs have a hard match-up vs HE, i defiently think DWF vs HE is easier than DWF vs SKV. Nerf lion chariot a bit and tempest and the match up stays hard but nothing that bad.

    Disagree. Skaven can be dealt with reliably using gyros if you have enough practice. HE is always a hit or miss, they have so much build variety
    Than we just disagree, my expierance with dwarfs has been that HE are not to hard to deal with and skv much harder, thoigh i got no idea why noone else except for me uses 5 BT build vs HE’s and clan angur, but fair enough if you find HE harder i dont.
    Massed artillery is in every dwarf Vs he build. You’re still not ready for complete massed infantry and complete healing chariot and complete archer spam.
    Sure you are, 5 BT smash ifnantry builds quite easy and chariots also, great as masss blockers jsut haev them at the front line vs chariot build.
    Yup five bolt throwers counter any number of infantry and then also chariots have no choice but to fight right on top of them too. Genius.

    Look this isn’t complicated. Take a matchup that was relatively even (but still balanced in a stupid way) and then give high elves a 600 point line rusher while substantially buffing their white lions and giving them an additional chariot to boot.

    If you agree with me it was relatively even before there’s literally no way it isn’t lopsided now. The partial build you described isn’t robust to an infantry swarm build or to four chariots, unless you guess right in either direction, and then it’s an even fight at best. You won’t even engage with that logic.
    Yep i agree it was even before, but i dont think the impact the DLC had is even as close to what you claim, the only part i do agree is the white lion chatios and if you see they are a unit i did single out to be nerfed.

    I dont think the match-up changed to loopsided at all in the DLC, thats where we disagree, i think it went from 55-45 to about 60-40 in HE favour, nerf teclis a bti and lion charitos and its back to where it was pre DLC in my view or there abouts.
    Why do you think a 600 point fast anti infantry unit that cost effectively beats everything of equivalent cost didn’t change the matchup? Longbeards are are a losing proposition for other reasons so hammerers are basically all you got. Also, white lion buff is self evident. And yet you think only the chariots changed things?

    Look I win this all the time on qb I’m not saying there’s no good builds but I’m discussing what an expert he player can do using builds that properly exploit the advantage.
    I use LB GW here and they trade really well into rangers and WL so absolutely nothing changed for me here, its why i dont think any of those changes impacted the match-up, the stuff i took pre patch is good vs the new stuff, only consideration I need now is lion chariots.
    I mean you’re taking a points loss in both cases but not much more to say. Just about the worst unit for cost effectively taking out units with martial prowess.
    Yeah i really dont agree here, i did tests LB GW vs WL and seems a nice balanced cost trade (not accounting for speed though, which is not needed in the set up i have).
    I’ll share some tests when I get around to that.

    In addition to accepting the cost inneficiency in your unit choice your point doesn’t address the relevance of rangers. Where before you could face five white lions and perhaps spears or a few swordmasters as a rush you can now face an actual all-superior quality infantry swarm rush with units that outtrade yours and will pick their targets. The simple and obvious change is a spread ranged build can no longer rely on the former gap in the high elf roster.

    But sure all of this plus a chariot option that’s robust to ranged fire and you tell yourself the shift in the matchup was 55/45 to 60/40. Quite a story.
    HE Infantry is capable of outclassing the Dwarf kit to be sure, but they are not the only faction capable of doing this,
    I also do not subscribe to the idea that Rangers were the big shakeup here, The 'all-superior quality' was sword masters and white lions, this hasn't really changed.

    Its also worth noting that at least in my experience, the exact opposite is true for the ranged fight, in that, the HE dont stand a chance. Dwarven range power trumps anything the HE can bring to the table.

    Theres an argument to be made that the White lion chariot is OP, certainly its unusual that its speed isnt any different from War Lions (Which is to say, you would really think pulling the chariots would slow them down a bit).

    But i dont think this one match up calls for nerfs to HE Infantry.

    Its not about rangers by themselves turning the matchup. Its about white lions being buffed, fast high hp missile resist chariots being added AND a new cost effective infantry killer that trades well with low teir troops, forcing you to go more elite and narrower. Now surprise surprise this gives the chariots more valuable things to eat and archers more valuable things to shoot.

    Take warriors gw for example. It used to be that they either lose to WLs but by you a little time, or win vs spears. Now instead of spears its usually rangers. So now they lose to WL and lose to rangers which is a crappy situation across the board.

    On top of that they can bring mass archers, so the hammerers or LB gw can get hammererd from the start. Or they cna bring shadow warriors and alith to snipe cannons forcing you to advance and be kited by with mediocre missile magnet troops. Or they can bring 4 chariots with healing which mincemeat anything they touch. Then they can bring dragons or pheonixes or footlords (eg tyrion) to kill your infantry faster ect ect.

    How do you prepare for all those possibe scenarios? You cant. Its a coin toss. Either your build wins and has a fighting chance or its dead in army selection
    Rangers also cost more than spears, and more than warriors, so this represents more of a cost investment from the HE side, this isn't something they are getting for free.

    I also fail to see how mass archers could ever work in the long term vs a dwarf army, giving that you might have some early success with a plague of rust and some low tier archers, but
    -If the archers are high tier, they represent a fantastic opportunity for your artillery.
    -If they are low tier, either your own missile troops can demolish them or that Mage thats probably on a dragon or chariot needs to kept flying in close to cast plague of rust and i couldn't imagine a juicer target for a faction with such ranged prowess

    This said though, i do 100% agree with you that the present HE chariot play is rough, and the match up is certainly lopsided. The HE currently have the potential to swarm the field with the blighted things and the dwarf roster as a whole is filled with almost nothing but ideal targets. The chariot limit could probably stand to be lower, or as i recall you suggesting in a previous thread, making giant slayers higher mass so that can better serve as an anti large powerhouse would be a step in the right direction, and making the matchup at least a little more balanced
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,349
    eumaies said:

    It’s unique to high elves and this matchup because a chariot with healing can kill an extreme order of magnitude more than its value in infantry in any normal game scenario. This isn’t about counterpicks in the sense of being disadvantaged - it’s about a matchups that’s decided at start.

    Then the other counterpicks all flow from that reality. None of the high elf optimal build options require any risk for the high elf side of this matchup. All of the dwarf builds are a coin toss between a definite loss and a fighting chance.

    try to keep your handgunners close to

    Analog said:

    eumaies said:


    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    I dont find anythign wrong that dwarfs have a hard match-up vs HE, i defiently think DWF vs HE is easier than DWF vs SKV. Nerf lion chariot a bit and tempest and the match up stays hard but nothing that bad.

    Disagree. Skaven can be dealt with reliably using gyros if you have enough practice. HE is always a hit or miss, they have so much build variety
    Than we just disagree, my expierance with dwarfs has been that HE are not to hard to deal with and skv much harder, thoigh i got no idea why noone else except for me uses 5 BT build vs HE’s and clan angur, but fair enough if you find HE harder i dont.
    Massed artillery is in every dwarf Vs he build. You’re still not ready for complete massed infantry and complete healing chariot and complete archer spam.
    Sure you are, 5 BT smash ifnantry builds quite easy and chariots also, great as masss blockers jsut haev them at the front line vs chariot build.
    Yup five bolt throwers counter any number of infantry and then also chariots have no choice but to fight right on top of them too. Genius.

    Look this isn’t complicated. Take a matchup that was relatively even (but still balanced in a stupid way) and then give high elves a 600 point line rusher while substantially buffing their white lions and giving them an additional chariot to boot.

    If you agree with me it was relatively even before there’s literally no way it isn’t lopsided now. The partial build you described isn’t robust to an infantry swarm build or to four chariots, unless you guess right in either direction, and then it’s an even fight at best. You won’t even engage with that logic.
    Yep i agree it was even before, but i dont think the impact the DLC had is even as close to what you claim, the only part i do agree is the white lion chatios and if you see they are a unit i did single out to be nerfed.

    I dont think the match-up changed to loopsided at all in the DLC, thats where we disagree, i think it went from 55-45 to about 60-40 in HE favour, nerf teclis a bti and lion charitos and its back to where it was pre DLC in my view or there abouts.
    Why do you think a 600 point fast anti infantry unit that cost effectively beats everything of equivalent cost didn’t change the matchup? Longbeards are are a losing proposition for other reasons so hammerers are basically all you got. Also, white lion buff is self evident. And yet you think only the chariots changed things?

    Look I win this all the time on qb I’m not saying there’s no good builds but I’m discussing what an expert he player can do using builds that properly exploit the advantage.
    I use LB GW here and they trade really well into rangers and WL so absolutely nothing changed for me here, its why i dont think any of those changes impacted the match-up, the stuff i took pre patch is good vs the new stuff, only consideration I need now is lion chariots.
    I mean you’re taking a points loss in both cases but not much more to say. Just about the worst unit for cost effectively taking out units with martial prowess.
    Yeah i really dont agree here, i did tests LB GW vs WL and seems a nice balanced cost trade (not accounting for speed though, which is not needed in the set up i have).
    I’ll share some tests when I get around to that.

    In addition to accepting the cost inneficiency in your unit choice your point doesn’t address the relevance of rangers. Where before you could face five white lions and perhaps spears or a few swordmasters as a rush you can now face an actual all-superior quality infantry swarm rush with units that outtrade yours and will pick their targets. The simple and obvious change is a spread ranged build can no longer rely on the former gap in the high elf roster.

    But sure all of this plus a chariot option that’s robust to ranged fire and you tell yourself the shift in the matchup was 55/45 to 60/40. Quite a story.
    HE Infantry is capable of outclassing the Dwarf kit to be sure, but they are not the only faction capable of doing this,
    I also do not subscribe to the idea that Rangers were the big shakeup here, The 'all-superior quality' was sword masters and white lions, this hasn't really changed.

    Its also worth noting that at least in my experience, the exact opposite is true for the ranged fight, in that, the HE dont stand a chance. Dwarven range power trumps anything the HE can bring to the table.

    Theres an argument to be made that the White lion chariot is OP, certainly its unusual that its speed isnt any different from War Lions (Which is to say, you would really think pulling the chariots would slow them down a bit).

    But i dont think this one match up calls for nerfs to HE Infantry.

    Its not about rangers by themselves turning the matchup. Its about white lions being buffed, fast high hp missile resist chariots being added AND a new cost effective infantry killer that trades well with low teir troops, forcing you to go more elite and narrower. Now surprise surprise this gives the chariots more valuable things to eat and archers more valuable things to shoot.

    Take warriors gw for example. It used to be that they either lose to WLs but by you a little time, or win vs spears. Now instead of spears its usually rangers. So now they lose to WL and lose to rangers which is a crappy situation across the board.

    On top of that they can bring mass archers, so the hammerers or LB gw can get hammererd from the start. Or they cna bring shadow warriors and alith to snipe cannons forcing you to advance and be kited by with mediocre missile magnet troops. Or they can bring 4 chariots with healing which mincemeat anything they touch. Then they can bring dragons or pheonixes or footlords (eg tyrion) to kill your infantry faster ect ect.

    How do you prepare for all those possibe scenarios? You cant. Its a coin toss. Either your build wins and has a fighting chance or its dead in army selection
    I don't think it's a reasonable proposition to pick Archers to trade into LB GW or Hammerers. You pick Archers mostly to counter Gyros and because... let's be honest, there are no other options. Swordmasters are not a good unit to pick vs Dwarves as they are exceedingly weak to ranged fire, and if not for the Gyrocopter threat, I wouldn't even bother picking HE archers because as I mentioned I don't think they are good in pure 1v1 considerations, more they can apply pressure and do damage over time, but they are still a far inferior ranged unit compared to Quarrelers or similar.

    It's mostly chariots, really, or the threat of them, that keeps Dwarves on their toes; it's ridiculous to pretend that suddenly all these units that are 25g too good (if they are too good at all) drastically swing the odds of the matchup when such units have existed in similar matchups for ages (Corsairs + Bleakswords in DE case, 400g Marauders in CH case, Berserkers in NO case, 300g Skinks on LZ case).
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 3,735
    Green0 said:

    eumaies said:

    It’s unique to high elves and this matchup because a chariot with healing can kill an extreme order of magnitude more than its value in infantry in any normal game scenario. This isn’t about counterpicks in the sense of being disadvantaged - it’s about a matchups that’s decided at start.

    Then the other counterpicks all flow from that reality. None of the high elf optimal build options require any risk for the high elf side of this matchup. All of the dwarf builds are a coin toss between a definite loss and a fighting chance.

    try to keep your handgunners close to

    Analog said:

    eumaies said:


    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    I dont find anythign wrong that dwarfs have a hard match-up vs HE, i defiently think DWF vs HE is easier than DWF vs SKV. Nerf lion chariot a bit and tempest and the match up stays hard but nothing that bad.

    Disagree. Skaven can be dealt with reliably using gyros if you have enough practice. HE is always a hit or miss, they have so much build variety
    Than we just disagree, my expierance with dwarfs has been that HE are not to hard to deal with and skv much harder, thoigh i got no idea why noone else except for me uses 5 BT build vs HE’s and clan angur, but fair enough if you find HE harder i dont.
    Massed artillery is in every dwarf Vs he build. You’re still not ready for complete massed infantry and complete healing chariot and complete archer spam.
    Sure you are, 5 BT smash ifnantry builds quite easy and chariots also, great as masss blockers jsut haev them at the front line vs chariot build.
    Yup five bolt throwers counter any number of infantry and then also chariots have no choice but to fight right on top of them too. Genius.

    Look this isn’t complicated. Take a matchup that was relatively even (but still balanced in a stupid way) and then give high elves a 600 point line rusher while substantially buffing their white lions and giving them an additional chariot to boot.

    If you agree with me it was relatively even before there’s literally no way it isn’t lopsided now. The partial build you described isn’t robust to an infantry swarm build or to four chariots, unless you guess right in either direction, and then it’s an even fight at best. You won’t even engage with that logic.
    Yep i agree it was even before, but i dont think the impact the DLC had is even as close to what you claim, the only part i do agree is the white lion chatios and if you see they are a unit i did single out to be nerfed.

    I dont think the match-up changed to loopsided at all in the DLC, thats where we disagree, i think it went from 55-45 to about 60-40 in HE favour, nerf teclis a bti and lion charitos and its back to where it was pre DLC in my view or there abouts.
    Why do you think a 600 point fast anti infantry unit that cost effectively beats everything of equivalent cost didn’t change the matchup? Longbeards are are a losing proposition for other reasons so hammerers are basically all you got. Also, white lion buff is self evident. And yet you think only the chariots changed things?

    Look I win this all the time on qb I’m not saying there’s no good builds but I’m discussing what an expert he player can do using builds that properly exploit the advantage.
    I use LB GW here and they trade really well into rangers and WL so absolutely nothing changed for me here, its why i dont think any of those changes impacted the match-up, the stuff i took pre patch is good vs the new stuff, only consideration I need now is lion chariots.
    I mean you’re taking a points loss in both cases but not much more to say. Just about the worst unit for cost effectively taking out units with martial prowess.
    Yeah i really dont agree here, i did tests LB GW vs WL and seems a nice balanced cost trade (not accounting for speed though, which is not needed in the set up i have).
    I’ll share some tests when I get around to that.

    In addition to accepting the cost inneficiency in your unit choice your point doesn’t address the relevance of rangers. Where before you could face five white lions and perhaps spears or a few swordmasters as a rush you can now face an actual all-superior quality infantry swarm rush with units that outtrade yours and will pick their targets. The simple and obvious change is a spread ranged build can no longer rely on the former gap in the high elf roster.

    But sure all of this plus a chariot option that’s robust to ranged fire and you tell yourself the shift in the matchup was 55/45 to 60/40. Quite a story.
    HE Infantry is capable of outclassing the Dwarf kit to be sure, but they are not the only faction capable of doing this,
    I also do not subscribe to the idea that Rangers were the big shakeup here, The 'all-superior quality' was sword masters and white lions, this hasn't really changed.

    Its also worth noting that at least in my experience, the exact opposite is true for the ranged fight, in that, the HE dont stand a chance. Dwarven range power trumps anything the HE can bring to the table.

    Theres an argument to be made that the White lion chariot is OP, certainly its unusual that its speed isnt any different from War Lions (Which is to say, you would really think pulling the chariots would slow them down a bit).

    But i dont think this one match up calls for nerfs to HE Infantry.

    Its not about rangers by themselves turning the matchup. Its about white lions being buffed, fast high hp missile resist chariots being added AND a new cost effective infantry killer that trades well with low teir troops, forcing you to go more elite and narrower. Now surprise surprise this gives the chariots more valuable things to eat and archers more valuable things to shoot.

    Take warriors gw for example. It used to be that they either lose to WLs but by you a little time, or win vs spears. Now instead of spears its usually rangers. So now they lose to WL and lose to rangers which is a crappy situation across the board.

    On top of that they can bring mass archers, so the hammerers or LB gw can get hammererd from the start. Or they cna bring shadow warriors and alith to snipe cannons forcing you to advance and be kited by with mediocre missile magnet troops. Or they can bring 4 chariots with healing which mincemeat anything they touch. Then they can bring dragons or pheonixes or footlords (eg tyrion) to kill your infantry faster ect ect.

    How do you prepare for all those possibe scenarios? You cant. Its a coin toss. Either your build wins and has a fighting chance or its dead in army selection
    I don't think it's a reasonable proposition to pick Archers to trade into LB GW or Hammerers. You pick Archers mostly to counter Gyros and because... let's be honest, there are no other options. Swordmasters are not a good unit to pick vs Dwarves as they are exceedingly weak to ranged fire, and if not for the Gyrocopter threat, I wouldn't even bother picking HE archers because as I mentioned I don't think they are good in pure 1v1 considerations, more they can apply pressure and do damage over time, but they are still a far inferior ranged unit compared to Quarrelers or similar.

    It's mostly chariots, really, or the threat of them, that keeps Dwarves on their toes; it's ridiculous to pretend that suddenly all these units that are 25g too good (if they are too good at all) drastically swing the odds of the matchup when such units have existed in similar matchups for ages (Corsairs + Bleakswords in DE case, 400g Marauders in CH case, Berserkers in NO case, 300g Skinks on LZ case).
    Agree. The problem in that MU has always been AP chariots with high MR. Noble chariot, first, and now the white lion chariot too.

    Having said that, I know admit that rangers are a 625 unit, and corsairs too.


  • AWizard_LizardAWizard_Lizard Registered Users Posts: 1,388
    For anyone's information, apart from the archmage if I choose her, I don't bring any other chariots in this matchup. My build has a lot of archers and bolt throwers. And that build has worked for me quite well. So I don't know at all why would anyone think of archers as unsuitable in this matchup.
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  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,854
    Analog said:

    eumaies said:


    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    I dont find anythign wrong that dwarfs have a hard match-up vs HE, i defiently think DWF vs HE is easier than DWF vs SKV. Nerf lion chariot a bit and tempest and the match up stays hard but nothing that bad.

    Disagree. Skaven can be dealt with reliably using gyros if you have enough practice. HE is always a hit or miss, they have so much build variety
    Than we just disagree, my expierance with dwarfs has been that HE are not to hard to deal with and skv much harder, thoigh i got no idea why noone else except for me uses 5 BT build vs HE’s and clan angur, but fair enough if you find HE harder i dont.
    Massed artillery is in every dwarf Vs he build. You’re still not ready for complete massed infantry and complete healing chariot and complete archer spam.
    Sure you are, 5 BT smash ifnantry builds quite easy and chariots also, great as masss blockers jsut haev them at the front line vs chariot build.
    Yup five bolt throwers counter any number of infantry and then also chariots have no choice but to fight right on top of them too. Genius.

    Look this isn’t complicated. Take a matchup that was relatively even (but still balanced in a stupid way) and then give high elves a 600 point line rusher while substantially buffing their white lions and giving them an additional chariot to boot.

    If you agree with me it was relatively even before there’s literally no way it isn’t lopsided now. The partial build you described isn’t robust to an infantry swarm build or to four chariots, unless you guess right in either direction, and then it’s an even fight at best. You won’t even engage with that logic.
    Yep i agree it was even before, but i dont think the impact the DLC had is even as close to what you claim, the only part i do agree is the white lion chatios and if you see they are a unit i did single out to be nerfed.

    I dont think the match-up changed to loopsided at all in the DLC, thats where we disagree, i think it went from 55-45 to about 60-40 in HE favour, nerf teclis a bti and lion charitos and its back to where it was pre DLC in my view or there abouts.
    Why do you think a 600 point fast anti infantry unit that cost effectively beats everything of equivalent cost didn’t change the matchup? Longbeards are are a losing proposition for other reasons so hammerers are basically all you got. Also, white lion buff is self evident. And yet you think only the chariots changed things?

    Look I win this all the time on qb I’m not saying there’s no good builds but I’m discussing what an expert he player can do using builds that properly exploit the advantage.
    I use LB GW here and they trade really well into rangers and WL so absolutely nothing changed for me here, its why i dont think any of those changes impacted the match-up, the stuff i took pre patch is good vs the new stuff, only consideration I need now is lion chariots.
    I mean you’re taking a points loss in both cases but not much more to say. Just about the worst unit for cost effectively taking out units with martial prowess.
    Yeah i really dont agree here, i did tests LB GW vs WL and seems a nice balanced cost trade (not accounting for speed though, which is not needed in the set up i have).
    I’ll share some tests when I get around to that.

    In addition to accepting the cost inneficiency in your unit choice your point doesn’t address the relevance of rangers. Where before you could face five white lions and perhaps spears or a few swordmasters as a rush you can now face an actual all-superior quality infantry swarm rush with units that outtrade yours and will pick their targets. The simple and obvious change is a spread ranged build can no longer rely on the former gap in the high elf roster.

    But sure all of this plus a chariot option that’s robust to ranged fire and you tell yourself the shift in the matchup was 55/45 to 60/40. Quite a story.
    HE Infantry is capable of outclassing the Dwarf kit to be sure, but they are not the only faction capable of doing this,
    I also do not subscribe to the idea that Rangers were the big shakeup here, The 'all-superior quality' was sword masters and white lions, this hasn't really changed.

    Its also worth noting that at least in my experience, the exact opposite is true for the ranged fight, in that, the HE dont stand a chance. Dwarven range power trumps anything the HE can bring to the table.

    Theres an argument to be made that the White lion chariot is OP, certainly its unusual that its speed isnt any different from War Lions (Which is to say, you would really think pulling the chariots would slow them down a bit).

    But i dont think this one match up calls for nerfs to HE Infantry.

    Of course I agree. There are multiple ways to fix this matchup and there are multiple matchups where high elf units (doesn’t have to be infantry) merit some adjustment. I agree with you the faction is more fun if it were balanced more around infantry strength instead of mobility heal kiting.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,854

    For anyone's information, apart from the archmage if I choose her, I don't bring any other chariots in this matchup. My build has a lot of archers and bolt throwers. And that build has worked for me quite well. So I don't know at all why would anyone think of archers as unsuitable in this matchup.

    I think Archer builds have a lot of strengths, both spammed or as a supporting element.

    I agree with folks who say they can be a risk because in theory if you get outguessed they would lose to dwarves ranged. The overall context of the matchup is defined by the game-over threat of chariot spam though.

    Just to clarify for all since some of the debate has obscured my original point, I think absolutely the root of the matchup imbalance is the dwarf lack of melee units that can contest chariots, particularly healing missile resistant very fast chariots. But this was true pre dlc. The thing with rangers though is lotus claimed they didn’t meaningfully change the balance of power and that’s incorrect. If you predictably need a Death Star of ranged power to deal with chariots and you upgrade the high elf rush game of course the matchup will get substantially harder with that new optionality. That’s all I’m saying and it’s really very simple.
  • littlenukelittlenuke Registered Users Posts: 422
    100%. Of course chariots are the main issue, and by their existance they counter existing ranged units with little but bombers and cannons to shut them down. This thus limits the DW ranged game. ON TOP OF THAT, you now have access to a cheaper unit (rangers) that trades well with a lot of dawi options.

    The chariots are the stem of the issue, but rangers are also part of it. And im not crying for nerfs to HE necessarily, a dw dlc or better giant slayers would probably solve the issue anyway
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  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,591
    What I wrote was just that I don't see how rangers makes the mu dramatically different. Sure it can be a little better to infantry rush with 10 cards instead of 8 or 9 cards, but on the other hand 6 WL (1 ror) + 2 SM packs more punch than 5 WL + 5 Rangers. I would prefer the latter too but I wouldn't call it game changing. I would rate like 5 other changes more important than rangers tbh.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,854

    What I wrote was just that I don't see how rangers makes the mu dramatically different. Sure it can be a little better to infantry rush with 10 cards instead of 8 or 9 cards, but on the other hand 6 WL (1 ror) + 2 SM packs more punch than 5 WL + 5 Rangers. I would prefer the latter too but I wouldn't call it game changing. I would rate like 5 other changes more important than rangers tbh.

    I mean sure it’s somewhere between important and dramatic. Lion chariots as a better supporting chariot to spam that resists missiles exaggerates the other side of things too of course.

    But assuming a five wl cap there are big differences Vs dwarfs relying on a small number of elite SMs that are vulnerable to AP missiles of all kinds Vs twice as many rangers that are much faster, not vulnerable to the AP ranged you have to bring, and will shut down that ranged faster. Previously if you were rushing with inf you would usually bring even spears, which are inferior on every dimension for this purpose, just to complete an envelopment.

  • WazabazabaWazabazaba Registered Users Posts: 140
    Idk why the HE vs dwarf match up gets brought up so much. There are many worse match ups out there, like bretonnia vs LM, chaos vs Vcounts or WE vs dwarfs. I swear all dwarf players are good at is corner camping and complaining.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,591
    eumaies said:

    What I wrote was just that I don't see how rangers makes the mu dramatically different. Sure it can be a little better to infantry rush with 10 cards instead of 8 or 9 cards, but on the other hand 6 WL (1 ror) + 2 SM packs more punch than 5 WL + 5 Rangers. I would prefer the latter too but I wouldn't call it game changing. I would rate like 5 other changes more important than rangers tbh.

    I mean sure it’s somewhere between important and dramatic. Lion chariots as a better supporting chariot to spam that resists missiles exaggerates the other side of things too of course.

    But assuming a five wl cap there are big differences Vs dwarfs relying on a small number of elite SMs that are vulnerable to AP missiles of all kinds Vs twice as many rangers that are much faster, not vulnerable to the AP ranged you have to bring, and will shut down that ranged faster. Previously if you were rushing with inf you would usually bring even spears, which are inferior on every dimension for this purpose, just to complete an envelopment.

    Personally I like war lions better than rangers vs dawi for the same reasons you listed more or less.
  • AWizard_LizardAWizard_Lizard Registered Users Posts: 1,388
    eumaies said:

    For anyone's information, apart from the archmage if I choose her, I don't bring any other chariots in this matchup. My build has a lot of archers and bolt throwers. And that build has worked for me quite well. So I don't know at all why would anyone think of archers as unsuitable in this matchup.

    I think Archer builds have a lot of strengths, both spammed or as a supporting element.

    I agree with folks who say they can be a risk because in theory if you get outguessed they would lose to dwarves ranged. The overall context of the matchup is defined by the game-over threat of chariot spam though.

    Just to clarify for all since some of the debate has obscured my original point, I think absolutely the root of the matchup imbalance is the dwarf lack of melee units that can contest chariots, particularly healing missile resistant very fast chariots. But this was true pre dlc. The thing with rangers though is lotus claimed they didn’t meaningfully change the balance of power and that’s incorrect. If you predictably need a Death Star of ranged power to deal with chariots and you upgrade the high elf rush game of course the matchup will get substantially harder with that new optionality. That’s all I’m saying and it’s really very simple.
    I'm basically responding to the bad argument that archers are good only to counter gyros.
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  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,349

    Idk why the HE vs dwarf match up gets brought up so much. There are many worse match ups out there, like bretonnia vs LM, chaos vs Vcounts or WE vs dwarfs. I swear all dwarf players are good at is corner camping and complaining.

    The forums have quite a passionate Dwarf playerbase who really likes to talk about Dwarves a lot that's why. They seem to also be unable to accept to structural limits existing in balancing, such as Chariots countering Dwarves and magically-attacking cavalry countering almost whole HE roster (Bret vs HE).
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  • MTechMTech Registered Users Posts: 576
    edited September 4
    Green0 said:

    Idk why the HE vs dwarf match up gets brought up so much. There are many worse match ups out there, like bretonnia vs LM, chaos vs Vcounts or WE vs dwarfs. I swear all dwarf players are good at is corner camping and complaining.

    The forums have quite a passionate Dwarf playerbase who really likes to talk about Dwarves a lot that's why. They seem to also be unable to accept to structural limits existing in balancing, such as Chariots countering Dwarves and magically-attacking cavalry countering almost whole HE roster (Bret vs HE).
    Atleast the always whinging Elf playerbase got the perfect counter to the whole Bret roster including magically attacking cavalry in one perfectly balanced unit.
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