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Then again, what do ppl expect lol, stupid to expect anything related to helf not get shut down.
Mustve suck hard if u cant deal with dwf without chariot. Its as if white lions and rangers doesnt exists. Of coz lets not bring certain $825 that has missile resist, u know with certain lord that wagh the army. Dont hear much of wagh now is it when certain helf having access to equilvalent
Chariot is nothing but a fast forward next button unit when u want to get the farm over with
What I wrote was just that I don't see how rangers makes the mu dramatically different. Sure it can be a little better to infantry rush with 10 cards instead of 8 or 9 cards, but on the other hand 6 WL (1 ror) + 2 SM packs more punch than 5 WL + 5 Rangers. I would prefer the latter too but I wouldn't call it game changing. I would rate like 5 other changes more important than rangers tbh.
I mean sure it’s somewhere between important and dramatic. Lion chariots as a better supporting chariot to spam that resists missiles exaggerates the other side of things too of course.
But assuming a five wl cap there are big differences Vs dwarfs relying on a small number of elite SMs that are vulnerable to AP missiles of all kinds Vs twice as many rangers that are much faster, not vulnerable to the AP ranged you have to bring, and will shut down that ranged faster. Previously if you were rushing with inf you would usually bring even spears, which are inferior on every dimension for this purpose, just to complete an envelopment.
Personally I like war lions better than rangers vs dawi for the same reasons you listed more or less.
There are so many good units you can't choose wrong anyway.
There are so many good units you can't choose wrong anyway.
Even without any dlc, that stupid free buff white lions got already worsen the match.
Never seen any unit getting that much def and hp added with 0 costs associated. They wanna make it even harder for dwf to hit lol
It was a pretty smart move on CA flooding the entire faction with overtuned units. Lions, ferals, chariots, rangers, silverins, arcane, teclics knowing full well they will never ever be balanced altogether. This is why im so excited for the next gen war 3. Gonna farm war2 and war1 factions like walk in a park with orges, daemons and chaos dwf
Idk why the HE vs dwarf match up gets brought up so much. There are many worse match ups out there, like bretonnia vs LM, chaos vs Vcounts or WE vs dwarfs. I swear all dwarf players are good at is corner camping and complaining.
The forums have quite a passionate Dwarf playerbase who really likes to talk about Dwarves a lot that's why. They seem to also be unable to accept to structural limits existing in balancing, such as Chariots countering Dwarves and magically-attacking cavalry countering almost whole HE roster (Bret vs HE).
Bs double standards as always. Try harder at least.
Idk why the HE vs dwarf match up gets brought up so much. There are many worse match ups out there, like bretonnia vs LM, chaos vs Vcounts or WE vs dwarfs. I swear all dwarf players are good at is corner camping and complaining.
Nobody got nothing on the whining and nagging of epic proportions that was the +1 AP for DP. And that's one example. Btw get a clue on who brings up the HE vs dwarfs MU. Or the HE vs GS MU. Or the HE vs Bretonnia MU. Or the HE vs x MU. The usual intercepting derailing.
Also if you want to complain for corner camping you can right after the draw kiting is fixed. We get cheese bs from every faction but the usual stereotype persists. And be careful before you insult all the players for the shennanigans of few.
There are so many good units you can't choose wrong anyway.
Even without any dlc, that stupid free buff white lions got already worsen the match.
Never seen any unit getting that much def and hp added with 0 costs associated. They wanna make it even harder for dwf to hit lol
It was a pretty smart move on CA flooding the entire faction with overtuned units. Lions, ferals, chariots, rangers, silverins, arcane, teclics knowing full well they will never ever be balanced altogether. This is why im so excited for the next gen war 3. Gonna farm war2 and war1 factions like walk in a park with orges, daemons and chaos dwf
LOL can't wait for chaos dwarfs, with Slaan level mages, Chosen level infantry, ranged firepower better than skaven and dawi and monsters that eat dread saurians for breakfast... Oh the howls of outrage will be glorious. See, thats the problem with powercreep, there seems to be an assumption that somehow its ok if your faction is the beneficiary of it, but actually, thats an unbelievably stupid assumption, because it can't work like that. Ever. And all it means is, you really have to pray to the CA gods that your faction is the last to get dlc. It's in essence, a race to be last.
Idk why the HE vs dwarf match up gets brought up so much. There are many worse match ups out there, like bretonnia vs LM, chaos vs Vcounts or WE vs dwarfs. I swear all dwarf players are good at is corner camping and complaining.
The forums have quite a passionate Dwarf playerbase who really likes to talk about Dwarves a lot that's why. They seem to also be unable to accept to structural limits existing in balancing, such as Chariots countering Dwarves and magically-attacking cavalry countering almost whole HE roster (Bret vs HE).
Atleast the always whinging Elf playerbase got the perfect counter to the whole Bret roster including magically attacking cavalry in one perfectly balanced unit.
Idk why the HE vs dwarf match up gets brought up so much. There are many worse match ups out there, like bretonnia vs LM, chaos vs Vcounts or WE vs dwarfs. I swear all dwarf players are good at is corner camping and complaining.
The forums have quite a passionate Dwarf playerbase who really likes to talk about Dwarves a lot that's why. They seem to also be unable to accept to structural limits existing in balancing, such as Chariots countering Dwarves and magically-attacking cavalry countering almost whole HE roster (Bret vs HE).
Atleast the always whinging Elf playerbase got the perfect counter to the whole Bret roster including magically attacking cavalry in one perfectly balanced unit.
eh give Dwarf dlc to. end of issues
DW don't need DLC they are balanced and fun to play as is and a solid mid-tier faction just many Dwarf lovers would like to see them best faction in the game with 8 favorable matchups and the rest even ones.
They are not complete they need few things to be complete so a single dlc more idealy because i feel like a third dlc willl destroy their asthetic but thay can easily do two dlc.
Its like saying no to a HE final dlc, not liking a faction should never equal to why they shouldn't get dlc.
Or the other solution is to nerf every thing and overtune other stuff so dawi can stay competitive same with any other race thats not fully complete. Thats just bad balancing.
Idk why the HE vs dwarf match up gets brought up so much. There are many worse match ups out there, like bretonnia vs LM, chaos vs Vcounts or WE vs dwarfs. I swear all dwarf players are good at is corner camping and complaining.
The forums have quite a passionate Dwarf playerbase who really likes to talk about Dwarves a lot that's why. They seem to also be unable to accept to structural limits existing in balancing, such as Chariots countering Dwarves and magically-attacking cavalry countering almost whole HE roster (Bret vs HE).
Atleast the always whinging Elf playerbase got the perfect counter to the whole Bret roster including magically attacking cavalry in one perfectly balanced unit.
eh give Dwarf dlc to. end of issues
DW don't need DLC they are balanced and fun to play as is and a solid mid-tier faction just many Dwarf lovers would like to see them best faction in the game with 8 favorable matchups and the rest even ones.
They are not complete they need few things to be complete so a single dlc more idealy because i feel like a third dlc willl destroy their asthetic but thay can easily do two dlc.
Its like saying no to a HE final dlc, not liking a faction should never equal to why they shouldn't get dlc.
Or the other solution is to nerf every thing and overtune other stuff so dawi can stay competitive same with any other race thats not fully complete. Thats just bad balancing.
whether they can do with a further DLC is obviously dependent on sales etc. Whether they NEED a DLC, pretty sure they don't.
HE don't either.
Its called finishing up athetics mate. Its true for HE and dawi.
HE are missing skycutters and annoted of asuryan. From army book to finsh their naval and phoenix themes.
Just like dawi are missing doomseekers, goblin hewer, thunderbarges,engineer lords, brewmasters, rune golems...etc So there is need to finish up themes. And such dlc are needed.
Sales wise the game is currently doing great unless they do something really stupid in game 3 we can have lot more years of game life time.
DW don't need DLC they are balanced and fun to play as is and a solid mid-tier faction just many Dwarf lovers would like to see them best faction in the game with 8 favorable matchups and the rest even ones.
Same lol not like helf ever needed one. Then they decided to give them
#1 med inf in game #1 cost effective top med ap inf #1 chariot in game #1 air sem in game #1 spear in game #1 air cancer teclics
DW don't need DLC they are balanced and fun to play as is and a solid mid-tier faction just many Dwarf lovers would like to see them best faction in the game with 8 favorable matchups and the rest even ones.
Same lol not like helf ever needed one. Then they decided to give them
#1 med inf in game #1 cost effective top med ap inf #1 chariot in game #1 air sem in game #1 spear in game #1 air cancer teclics
You could put 'most expensive' on some of those too and it would be true.
Alot of it is subjective too on the metric of what constitutes a number 1 unit.
DW don't need DLC they are balanced and fun to play as is and a solid mid-tier faction just many Dwarf lovers would like to see them best faction in the game with 8 favorable matchups and the rest even ones.
Same lol not like helf ever needed one. Then they decided to give them
#1 med inf in game #1 cost effective top med ap inf #1 chariot in game #1 air sem in game #1 spear in game #1 air cancer teclics
- CW/Besserkers beg to differ - CW GW beg to differ - DoomWheel beg to differ - Yep agree, considering there are what like 7 of those someone has to be top, or do you consider lords aswell? if so than Quite few beg to differ - Eternal Guard beg to differ - Yep in need of nerfs.
Presenting the dwarf roster as a perfectly functioning and complete thing is not at all fair to faction.
There is very clearly room for new units, reworked units and a refurbishing of play style/options that have come to be standard in other factions.
It was not so crippling a thing when the dwarves where one dimensional when only 4 factions existed in the game. Now, they are still one dimensional and there are something like 12 factions. This now presents a much larger problem.
The dwarves are clearly in need of some love.
Additionally presenting HE roster as the roster that has it all with no downsides is equally unfair. If roster was truly in the position of such strength id assume i would see more of them, and be beaten by them more often. Its particularly wild that we are here, on a teir list thread, in which the HE are largely agreed upon as not being in teir zero and yet there are still wild campaigns and misdirects about how strong the roster is and how extensive this strength is. It can certainly seem that some people are determined to ensure not that the faction has no OP tools, but instead that they simply have no tools at all.
I can entirely sympathise with the dwarven position. Theres nothing wrong with really liking your main faction and i dont think ive yet to meet a dwarf main that wanted their faction to be good over the bones of factions they didnt like.
Sorry green, tedious kiting is not the only definition of skill. I don’t enjoy playing vampire coast but there’s an art to it as to every faction and some people enjoy it. The issue isn’t playstyle it’s just balancing.
I encourage you to develop your moderate dwarven skill set. With enough practice you might even be able to beat my empire or Brettonia .
Much more interesting faction that way. And you’re working with known quantities there so hard to screw anything up too badly.
Re: high elves, I’d like nerfs to healing in some capacity. But I just don’t see it ever happening. They’re definitely more fun to play with some jazzy high class but situational infantry than with constantly being steered towards maximizing healing to exploit units with limited counters. Picking your fights with high impact but fragile mobile units is a fun challenge. Building strategies around exploiting max value from healing on low entity elites to overcome that fragility kind of defeats the point and more importantly is really hard to balance across 14 matchups.
A more realistic balance pass assuming healing is unfixable would be to tone down the base stats/performance a bit on their lowest entity overperformers: noble chariots/lion chariots/peclis.
Doomwheels even worse, must be some joke -903 hp - 10 speed - 30% missile resist - 10 ld +$150 One hella epic joke that one 4.1k ap will rekt noobwheel, where u need more than 7000 ap to deal with white lions. Then of coz -10 speed -10 ld as if thats not bad enough they r +$150 more. Lion chariot makes doom flayers and wheel both looks like a $1000 unit
Sorry green, tedious kiting is not the only definition of skill. I don’t enjoy playing vampire coast but there’s an art to it as to every faction and some people enjoy it. The issue isn’t playstyle it’s just balancing.
I encourage you to develop your moderate dwarven skill set. With enough practice you might even be able to beat my empire or Brettonia .
the skill to most Dwarven armies generally ends up with good army selection and good deployment. Infantry has simply no power to rotate quickly enough to dictate engagements and artillery is static.
I'm not implying anything here about the people who play Dwarves, simply pointing out that the faction is faulty by design. Any buffs to help the faction, for example, in the Skaven matchup would end up further exacerbating its strength in a matchup like Empire or Bretonnia.
I disagree with your relativism also that there is art in everything, yes in principle you're right, the question is how much. It's no coincidence most TW veterans, who were used to win in past TW games by using tactics and maneuvering horrify when playing Coast, because the faction is not engaging regardless of which side you're playing.
Incidentally, I don't know if you confuse me with Lotus, but I'm not a kite advocate. While I do kite sometimes, 95% of the times I play balanced armies so you have me confused there.
Nope I don’t assume you like to kite. Kite/cycle charge the glory of quick clicking skill or playing the game on a faster speed however you define it is the contrast I was referring to.
Vampire count players enjoy drawing out games into a war of attrition while the enemy exhausts themselves taking on the wrong targets. It’s an art, just not to everyone’s taste. Separately, the faction is a bit op right now.
As for dwarfs, ranged unit target selection and support for friendlies is in the end the same concept as melee unit target selection and support for friendlies. Exploiting durable units that can’t be replenished is a more challenging puzzle than exploiting healing to make specific units durable at your leisure. Infantry redeployment or the use of reserve units in a restricted area or is just as tactical as faster unit deployment over a larger area. The battlefield is defined by the push and pull of threats and shifts in two armies’ positioning. Generally dwarfs are pulling the enemy in but infantry can also in a coordinated fashion apply pressure to anything with approximately similar speed and most armies include such vulnerable elements. And just because you usually have the ranged advantage doesn’t mean you don’t need a plan and to execute effectively when you don’t.
Doomwheels even worse, must be some joke -903 hp - 10 speed - 30% missile resist - 10 ld +$150 One hella epic joke that one 4.1k ap will rekt noobwheel, where u need more than 7000 ap to deal with white lions. Then of coz -10 speed -10 ld as if thats not bad enough they r +$150 more. Lion chariot makes doom flayers and wheel both looks like a $1000 unit
Are you genuinely just picking out the stuff that makes the white lions look better?
Doomwheels even worse, must be some joke -903 hp - 10 speed - 30% missile resist - 10 ld +$150 One hella epic joke that one 4.1k ap will rekt noobwheel, where u need more than 7000 ap to deal with white lions. Then of coz -10 speed -10 ld as if thats not bad enough they r +$150 more. Lion chariot makes doom flayers and wheel both looks like a $1000 unit
Are you genuinely just picking out the stuff that makes the white lions look better?
Doomwheels even worse, must be some joke -903 hp - 10 speed - 30% missile resist - 10 ld +$150 One hella epic joke that one 4.1k ap will rekt noobwheel, where u need more than 7000 ap to deal with white lions. Then of coz -10 speed -10 ld as if thats not bad enough they r +$150 more. Lion chariot makes doom flayers and wheel both looks like a $1000 unit
Are you genuinely just picking out the stuff that makes the white lions look better?
The comparison is far more fair in truth than you present it.
Eh, he’s right about the doomwheel comparison though.
Difficult to fairly compare a SE to a multimodel unit i would have thought.
I agree that Lion chariots are in need of nerfs. But this absolutely does not give you a pass to lie about other units to try and present the roster or other units as stronger than they are.
Doomwheels even worse, must be some joke -903 hp - 10 speed - 30% missile resist - 10 ld +$150 One hella epic joke that one 4.1k ap will rekt noobwheel, where u need more than 7000 ap to deal with white lions. Then of coz -10 speed -10 ld as if thats not bad enough they r +$150 more. Lion chariot makes doom flayers and wheel both looks like a $1000 unit
Are you genuinely just picking out the stuff that makes the white lions look better?
Comments
Then again, what do ppl expect lol, stupid to expect anything related to helf not get shut down.
Mustve suck hard if u cant deal with dwf without chariot. Its as if white lions and rangers doesnt exists. Of coz lets not bring certain $825 that has missile resist, u know with certain lord that wagh the army. Dont hear much of wagh now is it when certain helf having access to equilvalent
Chariot is nothing but a fast forward next button unit when u want to get the farm over with
Top #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
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1 · Disagree Agree- Report
2 · Disagree AgreeNever seen any unit getting that much def and hp added with 0 costs associated. They wanna make it even harder for dwf to hit lol
It was a pretty smart move on CA flooding the entire faction with overtuned units. Lions, ferals, chariots, rangers, silverins, arcane, teclics knowing full well they will never ever be balanced altogether. This is why im so excited for the next gen war 3. Gonna farm war2 and war1 factions like walk in a park with orges, daemons and chaos dwf
Top #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
- Report
3 · Disagree Agree- Report
1 · Disagree AgreeAlso if you want to complain for corner camping you can right after the draw kiting is fixed. We get cheese bs from every faction but the usual stereotype persists. And be careful before you insult all the players for the shennanigans of few.
- Report
7 · Disagree AgreeOh the howls of outrage will be glorious.
See, thats the problem with powercreep, there seems to be an assumption that somehow its ok if your faction is the beneficiary of it, but actually, thats an unbelievably stupid assumption, because it can't work like that. Ever. And all it means is, you really have to pray to the CA gods that your faction is the last to get dlc. It's in essence, a race to be last.
- Report
3 · Disagree Agree#givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeIts like saying no to a HE final dlc, not liking a faction should never equal to why they shouldn't get dlc.
Or the other solution is to nerf every thing and overtune other stuff so dawi can stay competitive same with any other race thats not fully complete. Thats just bad balancing.
#givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeHE are missing skycutters and annoted of asuryan. From army book to finsh their naval and phoenix themes.
Just like dawi are missing doomseekers, goblin hewer, thunderbarges,engineer lords, brewmasters, rune golems...etc
So there is need to finish up themes. And such dlc are needed.
Sales wise the game is currently doing great unless they do something really stupid in game 3 we can have lot more years of game life time.
#givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
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0 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree Agree#1 med inf in game
#1 cost effective top med ap inf
#1 chariot in game
#1 air sem in game
#1 spear in game
#1 air cancer teclics
Top #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
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5 · Disagree AgreeAlot of it is subjective too on the metric of what constitutes a number 1 unit.
- Report
1 · Disagree Agree- CW GW beg to differ
- DoomWheel beg to differ
- Yep agree, considering there are what like 7 of those someone has to be top, or do you consider lords aswell? if so than Quite few beg to differ
- Eternal Guard beg to differ
- Yep in need of nerfs.
- Report
3 · Disagree AgreeThere is very clearly room for new units, reworked units and a refurbishing of play style/options that have come to be standard in other factions.
It was not so crippling a thing when the dwarves where one dimensional when only 4 factions existed in the game. Now, they are still one dimensional and there are something like 12 factions. This now presents a much larger problem.
The dwarves are clearly in need of some love.
Additionally presenting HE roster as the roster that has it all with no downsides is equally unfair.
If roster was truly in the position of such strength id assume i would see more of them, and be beaten by them more often. Its particularly wild that we are here, on a teir list thread, in which the HE are largely agreed upon as not being in teir zero and yet there are still wild campaigns and misdirects about how strong the roster is and how extensive this strength is. It can certainly seem that some people are determined to ensure not that the faction has no OP tools, but instead that they simply have no tools at all.
I can entirely sympathise with the dwarven position. Theres nothing wrong with really liking your main faction and i dont think ive yet to meet a dwarf main that wanted their faction to be good over the bones of factions they didnt like.
- Report
3 · Disagree AgreeI encourage you to develop your moderate dwarven skill set. With enough practice you might even be able to beat my empire or Brettonia
- Report
4 · Disagree AgreeBombers +100
Handguns +50
Depth guard -100
Much more interesting faction that way. And you’re working with known quantities there so hard to screw anything up too badly.
Re: high elves, I’d like nerfs to healing in some capacity. But I just don’t see it ever happening. They’re definitely more fun to play with some jazzy high class but situational infantry than with constantly being steered towards maximizing healing to exploit units with limited counters. Picking your fights with high impact but fragile mobile units is a fun challenge. Building strategies around exploiting max value from healing on low entity elites to overcome that fragility kind of defeats the point and more importantly is really hard to balance across 14 matchups.
A more realistic balance pass assuming healing is unfixable would be to tone down the base stats/performance a bit on their lowest entity overperformers: noble chariots/lion chariots/peclis.
- Report
3 · Disagree AgreeTop #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
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0 · Disagree Agree-30% missile resist -5 speed
+$50
Doomwheels even worse, must be some joke
-903 hp
- 10 speed
- 30% missile resist
- 10 ld
+$150
One hella epic joke that one
4.1k ap will rekt noobwheel, where u need more than 7000 ap to deal with white lions. Then of coz -10 speed -10 ld as if thats not bad enough they r +$150 more. Lion chariot makes doom flayers and wheel both looks like a $1000 unit
Top #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
- Report
1 · Disagree AgreeVampire count players enjoy drawing out games into a war of attrition while the enemy exhausts themselves taking on the wrong targets. It’s an art, just not to everyone’s taste. Separately, the faction is a bit op right now.
As for dwarfs, ranged unit target selection and support for friendlies is in the end the same concept as melee unit target selection and support for friendlies. Exploiting durable units that can’t be replenished is a more challenging puzzle than exploiting healing to make specific units durable at your leisure. Infantry redeployment or the use of reserve units in a restricted area or is just as tactical as faster unit deployment over a larger area. The battlefield is defined by the push and pull of threats and shifts in two armies’ positioning. Generally dwarfs are pulling the enemy in but infantry can also in a coordinated fashion apply pressure to anything with approximately similar speed and most armies include such vulnerable elements. And just because you usually have the ranged advantage doesn’t mean you don’t need a plan and to execute effectively when you don’t.
- Report
2 · Disagree AgreeCW GW have
+$50
+1125hp
+10 Armour
+4 MD
+4 WS (3 AP, 1 Standard)
+8 Charge
-30% missile resist
-5 speed
-Martial Prowess
-Woodsman
The comparison is far more fair in truth than you present it.
- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeNoble chariots: -5 speed, -5MD.
Lions chariots: -50 cost, -5 speed, -10 armour.
Peclis: remove potion (overall or just on Phoenix) and revert to some version/concept of the old sword.
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7 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeI agree that Lion chariots are in need of nerfs. But this absolutely does not give you a pass to lie about other units to try and present the roster or other units as stronger than they are.
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0 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeFor peclis potion needs to cost more and add another 15s of silance, in addition remove missile resit on his bird.
To that i would add star of avelorn re balance of -30% heal but ressurect.
Along with regrwoth not restoring vigour.
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0 · Disagree Agree