Sepulchral Stalkers

outrage4 · September 2020

I am pretty sure this unit ( esspesially ROR ) in need of nefs based on thier perfomance against AP melee cav.

1. Starting with regular stalkers (1200g). The unit got very solid air and cav protection via missile attacks and it is fine but the melee prowess of this unit makes it perform too well even against melee AP AL specialist cav in the similar price range.
Sepulchral Stalkers beat decisively such units as Questing knights(1100g), Cold one spear riders/knigts(1000g), Dread knights(1250), Broken tusks mob(1250g with waagh!) all without doing a single shot!

After 1 volley they beat regular demis(1400g), chaos knihgts(1500g), dragon princess(1400g) and trade even with halberd demis(1500g).

Considering all mentioned units are AP (except CK,DP) and some are AP + AL and there is vanguard + stalk for stalkers on top of that, i think that they SS are too strong in melee vs large targets.

2.Now the ROR is straight up broken. For 1350 (150 more than normal) gold they get rank 9 stalkers that cost 1622 gold, 25% MR and poison on missiles!

It is insane rank 9 discount with 2 super usefull traits. Their melee is even more impressive considering their cheap price.

In conclusion i want to say that i am aware of the fact that this unit is very bad against small targets but it doesn't justify such melee performance against large targets esspessially considering them having vanguard, stalk and strong missile attacks. I am certaint that regular stalker need some moderate nerfs and ROR should be nerfed substantially.

Edit: apparently i messed up and my test are incorrect. ROR still looks quiet underpriced thought.

Noob_for_Life#5674 · September 2020

I agree they could use a nerf specifically the ror but from my understanding they where always bad in melee. Also ran tests against the units you said it beats and it lost to everything accept the questing knights pretty hard.

An the only reason it lost to questing knights was the AI kept cycling them for some reason letting the snakes get free hits.

outrage4 · September 2020

Noob_for_Life said:
I agree they could use a nerf specifically the ror but from my understanding they where always bad in melee. Also ran tests against the units you said it beats and it lost to everything accept the questing knights pretty hard.

An the only reason it lost to questing knights was the AI kept cycling them for some reason letting the snakes get free hits.

I are you sure you bracing the charge? Because that what i did and that what is going to happen all the time in real game because they can shoot while being braced.

Noob_for_Life#5674 · September 2020

outrage4 said:

Noob_for_Life said:
I agree they could use a nerf specifically the ror but from my understanding they where always bad in melee. Also ran tests against the units you said it beats and it lost to everything accept the questing knights pretty hard.

An the only reason it lost to questing knights was the AI kept cycling them for some reason letting the snakes get free hits.
I are you sure you bracing the charge? Because that what i did and that what is going to happen all the time in real game because they can shoot while being braced.

Yea i had the fire at will off and they where braced was a close fight with the Cold One Spear Riders but they still won everytime and dreadknights where beating them with half health left.

Also im not sure if you have width mod but i was using one to put the AI unit at max width. If you didn't have that im sure that could effect results.

outrage4 · September 2020

Noob_for_Life said:

outrage4 said:

Noob_for_Life said:
I agree they could use a nerf specifically the ror but from my understanding they where always bad in melee. Also ran tests against the units you said it beats and it lost to everything accept the questing knights pretty hard.

An the only reason it lost to questing knights was the AI kept cycling them for some reason letting the snakes get free hits.
I are you sure you bracing the charge? Because that what i did and that what is going to happen all the time in real game because they can shoot while being braced.

Yea i had the fire at will off and they where braced was a close fight with the Cold One Spear Riders but they still won everytime and dreadknights where beating them with half health left.

Also im not sure if you have width mod but i was using one to put the AI unit at max width. If you didn't have that im sure that could effect results.

Oh well you are right then. My tests are incorrect, i didn't realise width has such impact. ROR stll need nerfs probably. @mods close disscussion please.

Noob_for_Life#5674 · September 2020

I mean we can still have the conversation about ror stalkers because like you pointed out they get a lot of bonuses for only 150 gold more. only thing is how to go about nerfing them

BjornNorlinder#2423 · September 2020

They are too good at what they do and in melee vs large.

eumaies#1128 · September 2020

The ROR is quite good but i totally disagree on the basic ones at 1200. This unit has a lot of stealth weaknesses. Very slow cav; very weak vs infantry (which can almost catch them alot of the time), low armour relative to typical heavy cav, few models.

In short the 1200 version is just passable, even with the good shooting ability. The ROR is great and I won't cry if it's 50 points more or something. But I also don't generally have a problem killing them or any sepulchral stalkers. You gotta understand these units aren't cavalry and are no threat to infantry. They're very specialized and they cost alot to bring. Gotta pray you have the right setup and targets.

eumaies#1128 · September 2020

.. at their speed and their inneffectiveness vs infantry it's almost like saying halbards will beat demis in combat. Why yes, yes they will if you let them catch them and stay in sustained combat with them. But this unit is slow as mud so it's very reactive, even with the spitting.

another505 · September 2020

The ror could get a price increase
but not sure about the base one...

Witchblade · September 2020

As NFL said your test results are wildly inaccurate. Since they are effectively a halberd unit - decidedly not a shock cavalry unit - they also should destroy any cavalry that's foolish enough to charge them head on. The fact that they don't even is probably why their pick rate is super low and they have little place in the meta, at least the regular ones.

1 v 1 performance aside, this unit is very hard to use. It has short range and only direct line of sight so it constantly gets obstructed. With basically no charge bonus and very clumsy animations, it often ends up fighting infantry and there they perform horribly. They also perform poorly against most SEMs that are smart enough to avoid directly running into them. Without their ranged attacks, they really don't perform well against anything but their most ideal targets.

Considering the halberd snakes are admittedly overnerfed by Duck, I think nerfing stalkers, especially the regular one, is very misguided.

In short, only the RoR is competitive. That one is very good, as it can actually fight things in melee for only a small increase in cost. It's only slightly overtuned at worst though, so I only recommend nerfing them if halberd snakes get at least -100 gold.

Noob_for_Life#5674 · September 2020

Witchblade said:
In short, only the RoR is competitive. That one is very good, as it can actually fight things in melee for only a small increase in cost. It's only slightly overtuned at worst though, so I only recommend nerfing them if halberd snakes get at least -100 gold.

TK has a solid roster the ror is overtuned for the price, nerfing it should't be on the condition another unit gets buffed.

Energyzed#6772 · September 2020

I see them recieving a -2 ammo nerf, but that is about it. Though i prefer them on their current "strong" spot than what they were for a long time before their rework.