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Vampire Counts Bloodlines-Speculation and Roster

xBlood_Raven#5120xBlood_Raven#5120 Registered Users Posts: 982
Welcome to Night's Dark Masters! This is simply a discussion of what the Vampire Counts still have left (specifically with their Bloodlines). There will be an 'All' section at the end with LLs that fit outside the Bloodlines or units that all the Bloodlines should be able to use.

This is mainly for how much potential the Vampire Counts still have (alongside the Skaven and Empire).

https://old.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/ivvg1v/vampire_counts_bloodlinesspeculation_and_roster/

Either way, enjoy the read (and apologies for length, this became much larger than I expected). It will be a certain Commander vs an (in)famous Seer next. Then the Cult of Ulric vs Norsca.

Comments

  • #324448#324448 Florida, USARegistered Users Posts: 2,146
    Excellent post, I'm always astounded by the sheer quality of what you write. I know people oft-complained about the amount of love the Vampire Counts got in Warhammer 1, but it's amazing how much more there is for them. Like the Empire and the Skaven, there's an abundance of content and variety (and Helman Ghorst was a waste IMO).

    I think Neferata, Zacharias, and either Ushoran or Vorag could all get lord packs with unique mechanics and units. I would hope that each one would bring improvements to the Blood Kiss system, further diversifying and diverging the blood lines. Nagash and Drachenfels would also be great to see, and I think they're much more suited to being a combination of VCounts, Tomb Kings, and VCoast than their own roster as many suggest.

    Can't wait to see future posts from you, especially Bernhardt vs. Thanquol. I'm assuming Bernhardt will be a part of a Dogs of War/Southern Realms roster and I'd love to see your thoughts there.
    Remember: there's no reason to get angry on the forums. Be polite and respectful towards other people's opinions, even if you disagree.

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  • xBlood_Raven#5120xBlood_Raven#5120 Registered Users Posts: 982

    Excellent post, I'm always astounded by the sheer quality of what you write. I know people oft-complained about the amount of love the Vampire Counts got in Warhammer 1, but it's amazing how much more there is for them. Like the Empire and the Skaven, there's an abundance of content and variety (and Helman Ghorst was a waste IMO).

    I think Neferata, Zacharias, and either Ushoran or Vorag could all get lord packs with unique mechanics and units. I would hope that each one would bring improvements to the Blood Kiss system, further diversifying and diverging the blood lines. Nagash and Drachenfels would also be great to see, and I think they're much more suited to being a combination of VCounts, Tomb Kings, and VCoast than their own roster as many suggest.

    Can't wait to see future posts from you, especially Bernhardt vs. Thanquol. I'm assuming Bernhardt will be a part of a Dogs of War/Southern Realms roster and I'd love to see your thoughts there.

    Thanks! Really glad you enjoyed it (it is a vast read so go back and read other parts when needed). Every race in the game can get additional content but others just have more due to a higher amount of official content. I believe the Undead are being built up for Nagash in game 3. Helman Ghorst was a strange choice but if we get the other Undead LLs, I can happily accept him.

    Agree with the second paragraph. I see Neferata as being dlc (due to potential mechanics and units) and Ushoran being flc due to the smaller amount of units needed (also the Marshes of Madness being added in the last dlc). Nagash can be one of the main villains for Game 3 (or playable) and Drachenfels/The Nameless is a mix. He could be a playable LL as he has been hinted.

    Morgan Bernhardt will be part of Dogs of War/Southern Realms. He was the first video game character and fought (and defeated) Thanquol in Shadow of the Horned Rat. It's either Thanquol against him or Skarbrand and I find Bernhardt to be more interesting. I'll likely expand Dogs of War/Southern Realms too as I could add some more units outside the 5th edition army book and the official Alessio Cavatore list.
  • Captain_Rex#1635Captain_Rex#1635 Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 38,130
    Awesome! I really hope VC will get at least 2 more LPs.
    Summon the Elector Counts!
  • Gollummyprecious#7609Gollummyprecious#7609 Registered Users Posts: 475

    Excellent post, I'm always astounded by the sheer quality of what you write. I know people oft-complained about the amount of love the Vampire Counts got in Warhammer 1, but it's amazing how much more there is for them. Like the Empire and the Skaven, there's an abundance of content and variety (and Helman Ghorst was a waste IMO).

    I think Neferata, Zacharias, and either Ushoran or Vorag could all get lord packs with unique mechanics and units. I would hope that each one would bring improvements to the Blood Kiss system, further diversifying and diverging the blood lines. Nagash and Drachenfels would also be great to see, and I think they're much more suited to being a combination of VCounts, Tomb Kings, and VCoast than their own roster as many suggest.

    Can't wait to see future posts from you, especially Bernhardt vs. Thanquol. I'm assuming Bernhardt will be a part of a Dogs of War/Southern Realms roster and I'd love to see your thoughts there.

    Vorag bloodytooth makes more sense as he can be alive at that point also Ushoran is a bit overpowered
    Sanity is a curse, madness offers the only freedom...
  • RomeoReject#1666RomeoReject#1666 Registered Users Posts: 2,167

    Excellent post, I'm always astounded by the sheer quality of what you write. I know people oft-complained about the amount of love the Vampire Counts got in Warhammer 1, but it's amazing how much more there is for them. Like the Empire and the Skaven, there's an abundance of content and variety (and Helman Ghorst was a waste IMO).

    I think Neferata, Zacharias, and either Ushoran or Vorag could all get lord packs with unique mechanics and units. I would hope that each one would bring improvements to the Blood Kiss system, further diversifying and diverging the blood lines. Nagash and Drachenfels would also be great to see, and I think they're much more suited to being a combination of VCounts, Tomb Kings, and VCoast than their own roster as many suggest.

    Can't wait to see future posts from you, especially Bernhardt vs. Thanquol. I'm assuming Bernhardt will be a part of a Dogs of War/Southern Realms roster and I'd love to see your thoughts there.

    Vorag bloodytooth makes more sense as he can be alive at that point also Ushoran is a bit overpowered
    You're worried about Ushoran being overpowered, but not Nagash? :p
  • #324448#324448 Florida, USARegistered Users Posts: 2,146

    Vorag bloodytooth makes more sense as he can be alive at that point also Ushoran is a bit overpowered

    As far as I know, both Vorag and Ushoran "died" before the present day. However, like Vlad, they're vampires and it's not hard to justify their presence considering they're both undead.

    You're worried about Ushoran being overpowered, but not Nagash? :p

    The way I see it, Nagash himself should be a major event similar to the Chaos Invasion, his arrival late in the game causing all (loyal) undead factions to rally to his immense power.

    However, if you were to play as Nagash, I imagine he'd get a unique campaign where he starts as a shadow of his former glory, and must go through stages to rebuild his power before assuming his position as the supreme necromancer.
    Remember: there's no reason to get angry on the forums. Be polite and respectful towards other people's opinions, even if you disagree.

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  • xBlood_Raven#5120xBlood_Raven#5120 Registered Users Posts: 982
    ArneSo said:

    Awesome! I really hope VC will get at least 2 more LPs.

    I honestly think they'll get more than that. Neferata and W'soran at the very least. Abhorash and Mallobaude can combine to bring the Blood Dragon elements.

    Ushoran and Vorag are both possible but Ushoran is the founder of the Bloodline. Therefore, he should be the LL and the main priority. Ushoran also appears in AOS so he definitely survived the End Times (despite the lore mentioning him dying in two different ways, but we'll ignore the old lore).
  • capybarasiesta89#4722capybarasiesta89#4722 Senior Member Bath, UKRegistered Users Posts: 5,463
    ArneSo said:

    Awesome! I really hope VC will get at least 2 more LPs.

    Me too I hope to see Zacharias the Everliving Necrarch LL would be awesome, Ushoran or Vorag also would be cool.
    h1feizw8yzk6.jpg
  • Emjay86Emjay86 Registered Users Posts: 48
    I would personally just love to see a proper representation of their political side. The vampires are meant to be schemes, causing political turmoil within the empire but you can't do any of it.
  • xBlood_Raven#5120xBlood_Raven#5120 Registered Users Posts: 982
    edited September 2020
    Emjay86 said:

    I would personally just love to see a proper representation of their political side. The vampires are meant to be schemes, causing political turmoil within the empire but you can't do any of it.

    Neferata would bring that style of gameplay. Being able to infiltrate and effectively control factions like proxy armies. This would allow you to start wars without them knowing it is you.
    Post edited by xBlood_Raven#5120 on
  • Captain_Rex#1635Captain_Rex#1635 Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 38,130
    Emjay86 said:

    I would personally just love to see a proper representation of their political side. The vampires are meant to be schemes, causing political turmoil within the empire but you can't do any of it.

    Thats only something Neffy does. The other Bloodlines don’t really care about politics, except the Von Carsteins.

    - Blood Dragons only care about War and Honor.

    - Necrarchs only care about arcane knowledge and necromantic Power.

    - Strigoi just want to survive and restore ancient Mourkhain.
    Summon the Elector Counts!
  • Captain_Rex#1635Captain_Rex#1635 Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 38,130

    ArneSo said:

    Awesome! I really hope VC will get at least 2 more LPs.

    Me too I hope to see Zacharias the Everliving Necrarch LL would be awesome, Ushoran or Vorag also would be cool.
    Every bloodline needs a playable LL! Zacharias, Neffy and Ushoran/Vorag are a Must!
    Summon the Elector Counts!
  • UberReptilianUberReptilian The Crystal LabyrinthRegistered Users Posts: 5,487
    Excellent thread as always! +1 for also giving Mallobaude and Mousillion a shoutout again. Really don't get enough love. I would say I think Konrad should be a Legendary Hero as we already have plenty of Von Carsteins and he isn't a caster like you point out so being a LH would be more unique imo.

    Ushoran as the Strigoi lord is a no-brainer, but I didn't know he had wings. That'd be pretty awesome if he could get those to help stand out from other strigoi. Also agreed Ushorna > Vorag.

    Really love the ideas on the Necrarch. Very clever way to get all the big name Necrarchs in one LL. They have to have him/them start in the Forest of Shadows though, no question about it.

    Neferata is the only LL that is guaranteed for a LP imo. Too heavily requested a character and is a lot less complex than stuff like Necrarchs.

    If there were only one race I would want it'd be Necrarchs and not just to fix the kitbash abomination.
  • PoorManatee6197#6481PoorManatee6197#6481 Registered Users Posts: 2,603
    Very interesting read, I'm not that much into vampires but I think every bloodline should have at least 1 character, specially Neferata and Mallobaude are the ones with most potential IMO.
    #MakeDwarfsGreatAgain Josef Bugman, Thorek Ironbrow, Alrik Ranulfsson, Grimm Burloksson, Kazador Thunderhorn, Byrrnoth Grundadrakk, Malakai Makaisson, Gotrek Gurnisson, Garagrim, Dragon slayer, Deamon slayer, Doomseekers, Brotherhood of Grimnir, Giant slayers, Thunderbarge, Shieldbearer mount, Master brewer, Goblin Hewer, Norse dwarf war mammoth, Tractator engine, Rune golem, Shard dragon, proper Anvil of Doom, Ulther's dragon company, Lond Drong's slayer pirates, Everguard, Karak Varn, Karag Agrilwutraz, Karaz Bryn, Karag Dum, Karak Vlag, Kraka Dorden, Kraka Ornsmotek, Kraka Ravnsvake, Karak Vrag, Karak Azorn, Karak Krakaten.


    All those missing things are grudges in the great book, is in your hand to settle them, CA. Khazukan kazakit-ha!

    IT'S HOBGOBBO TIME!!!!!!!
    #JusticeForKurgan
  • PoorManatee6197#6481PoorManatee6197#6481 Registered Users Posts: 2,603
    So knights of the black grail, black grail knights and knights of the bloody grail are 3 different things? The lore is so confusing sometimes.
    #MakeDwarfsGreatAgain Josef Bugman, Thorek Ironbrow, Alrik Ranulfsson, Grimm Burloksson, Kazador Thunderhorn, Byrrnoth Grundadrakk, Malakai Makaisson, Gotrek Gurnisson, Garagrim, Dragon slayer, Deamon slayer, Doomseekers, Brotherhood of Grimnir, Giant slayers, Thunderbarge, Shieldbearer mount, Master brewer, Goblin Hewer, Norse dwarf war mammoth, Tractator engine, Rune golem, Shard dragon, proper Anvil of Doom, Ulther's dragon company, Lond Drong's slayer pirates, Everguard, Karak Varn, Karag Agrilwutraz, Karaz Bryn, Karag Dum, Karak Vlag, Kraka Dorden, Kraka Ornsmotek, Kraka Ravnsvake, Karak Vrag, Karak Azorn, Karak Krakaten.


    All those missing things are grudges in the great book, is in your hand to settle them, CA. Khazukan kazakit-ha!

    IT'S HOBGOBBO TIME!!!!!!!
    #JusticeForKurgan
  • LordSolarMach#5538LordSolarMach#5538 Registered Users Posts: 2,302
    edited September 2020
    Pretty great musings; very extensive. Minor quibble: "Neferata should start where the Silver Host starts in Vortex". If I'm not mistaken, the Necarch Brotherhood and Strygos Empire are the only VCs on the Vortex map, are they not?

    If we're getting a single LL from every bloodline, then I'd go Walach Harkon for the Blood Dragons. As you note, he was on the cover of the original Vampire Counts armybook. But I think we'd be more likely to see the Red Duke upgraded into a "full" LL.

    I'm not 100% on this, but I believe the Genevieve rights are tied up with Kim Newman.

    As far as possible Lord Pack DLC units, I think things are a bit more restrictive. None of the things proposed for the Blood Dragons strike me as being more than FLC. The Strigany, while making good sense for a Ghoul Kings faction, don't fit in with the overall Vampire Counts race. Abyssal Terrors were kind of trumped by Dread Abyssals.

    So units I think would be good for DLC:
    -A foot Vampire unit (Lahmian Handmaidens being most likely, and/or as you suggest Necarchs and Blood Dragons)
    -Coven Thrones (moderate, but not trvial, rework of Mortis Engines)
    -Patchwork Men (aka Flesh Golems)
    -Morghast Harbingers/Archai
    -Dread Abyssal (as a SEM)

    Lords wise, the Necarchs are in desperate need, but everyone else does okay with their FLC re-work. You could dip back into 4th edition and grab Liches as a new Lord choice, but that might be a slap in the face to Tomb Kings players.

    While The Grim & The Grave could get away with: Helman Ghorst + Ghoul Kings (now FLCish) + Corpse Cart + Mortis Engine... I think standards have risen. Honestly, it's hard to come up with unified LPs. If you're willing to do a grab bag of disparate associated blood lines it's fine, but if you're trying to stick to a theme... would people really be happy with:

    Neferata
    -Lahmian Countess
    -Lahmian Handmaidens
    -Coven Thrones

    or

    Zacharias
    -Necarch Master
    -Necarch Acolytes
    -Patchwork Men

    or

    Nagash
    -Liche
    -Morghast Harbingers/Archai
    -Dread Abyssals
  • xBlood_Raven#5120xBlood_Raven#5120 Registered Users Posts: 982

    Excellent thread as always! +1 for also giving Mallobaude and Mousillion a shoutout again. Really don't get enough love. I would say I think Konrad should be a Legendary Hero as we already have plenty of Von Carsteins and he isn't a caster like you point out so being a LH would be more unique imo.

    Ushoran as the Strigoi lord is a no-brainer, but I didn't know he had wings. That'd be pretty awesome if he could get those to help stand out from other strigoi. Also agreed Ushorna > Vorag.

    Really love the ideas on the Necrarch. Very clever way to get all the big name Necrarchs in one LL. They have to have him/them start in the Forest of Shadows though, no question about it.

    Neferata is the only LL that is guaranteed for a LP imo. Too heavily requested a character and is a lot less complex than stuff like Necrarchs.

    If there were only one race I would want it'd be Necrarchs and not just to fix the kitbash abomination.

    Mallobaude should be the rightful ruler of Mousillon so needs to arrive at some point. Konrad is not necessary but is the last Von Carstein, so why not.

    It was something I remembered from the Neferata novel. It will help him stand out from the other Strigoi Vampires.

    W'soran and the rest have quite a bit of confusing lore. Mixing the three into one character is a much easier way of implementing them (W'soran's appearance but you can move into the other characters by skill trees).

    Agree with Neferata and the Necrarch Lord needing an update.

    Very interesting read, I'm not that much into vampires but I think every bloodline should have at least 1 character, specially Neferata and Mallobaude are the ones with most potential IMO.

    Agree. Neferata can bring the unique campaign mechanics and Mallobaude can bring the Bretonnia Civil War (which should hurt the Ordertide as well).

    Knights of the Black Grail are Blood Knights that are Mallobaude's bodyguard (a Blood Knight RoR coloured yellow should be sufficient). Black Grail Knights are undead Grail Knights and Knights of the Bloody Grail seem to be Vampiric Grail Knights (or Knights of the Realm). They're all units that can expand Mousillon.

    Pretty great musings; very extensive. Minor quibble: "Neferata should start where the Silver Host starts in Vortex". If I'm not mistaken, the Necarch Brotherhood and Strygos Empire are the only VCs on the Vortex map, are they not?

    If we're getting a single LL from every bloodline, then I'd go Walach Harkon for the Blood Dragons. As you note, he was on the cover of the original Vampire Counts armybook. But I think we'd be more likely to see the Red Duke upgraded into a "full" LL.

    I'm not 100% on this, but I believe the Genevieve rights are tied up with Kim Newman.

    As far as possible Lord Pack DLC units, I think things are a bit more restrictive. None of the things proposed for the Blood Dragons strike me as being more than FLC. The Strigany, while making good sense for a Ghoul Kings faction, don't fit in with the overall Vampire Counts race. Abyssal Terrors were kind of trumped by Dread Abyssals.

    So units I think would be good for DLC:
    -A foot Vampire unit (Lahmian Handmaidens being most likely, and/or as you suggest Necarchs and Blood Dragons)
    -Coven Thrones (moderate, but not trvial, rework of Mortis Engines)
    -Patchwork Men (aka Flesh Golems)
    -Morghast Harbingers/Archai
    -Dread Abyssal (as a SEM)

    Lords wise, the Necarchs are in desperate need, but everyone else does okay with their FLC re-work. You could dip back into 4th edition and grab Liches as a new Lord choice, but that might be a slap in the face to Tomb Kings players.

    While The Grim & The Grave could get away with: Helman Ghorst + Ghoul Kings (now FLCish) + Corpse Cart + Mortis Engine... I think standards have risen. Honestly, it's hard to come up with unified LPs. If you're willing to do a grab bag of disparate associated blood lines it's fine, but if you're trying to stick to a theme... would people really be happy with:

    Neferata
    -Lahmian Countess
    -Lahmian Handmaidens
    -Coven Thrones

    or

    Zacharias
    -Necarch Master
    -Necarch Acolytes
    -Patchwork Men

    or

    Nagash
    -Liche
    -Morghast Harbingers/Archai
    -Dread Abyssals

    Thanks! You're correct, that is a mistake. I was thinking of Lahmia in Mortal Empires. Better way of saying it would be that Neferata starts in the Silver Pinnacle with the Silver Host as a vassal faction.

    I put down Walach, Mallobaude and Red Duke as all possible options (want all of them!), but I prefer Abhorash as each of the Bloodline founders are alive in lore, and so, deserve to be playable. Abhorash is basically the greatest fighter in the lore but never had rules or a model (which was unjust in my opinion). The Red Duke is a funny one as well, as it should be Mallobaude in Mousillon. The Red Duke can still be made playable and either moved to a new location, or starts in Mousillon with Mallobaude.

    We have a Drachenfels hint from one of the epilogues so I could not leave him or Genevieve out. I believed you're correct regarding the rights though.

    There are units in the list that are flc or campaign exclusive as they should be simple to create. The Strigany are fine as they were playable in 6th edition (and are fitting considering the nature of the Strigoi and their objectives). They can be campaign exclusive for Ushoran's faction alone if need be. Abyssal Terrors and Dread Abyssals are different. There should not be a problem implementing them both.

    The Necrarch Lord needs an update as the other kitbashes are decent bar him. I was thinking the Liche but could not think of a decent role for him. The Mummies will be mentioned in the Tomb Kings pack.

    Agree 100% with the themes too. Each Bloodline can give something, and so, a themed pack around each is possible (or a flc update on one of them).

  • Ol_Nessie#9894Ol_Nessie#9894 Registered Users Posts: 4,310
    I don't think it's entirely necessary to get all of the Bloodline founders in the game with the exception of Neferata. For her faction, I think it'd be a cool idea to make her something of a mirror to Arkhan in that she has access to a few token Tomb Kings units like Tomb Guard with Halberds, Ushabti, Nehekharan Warriors, and Carrion. Also, as she despises the Strigoi she shouldn't have access to Ghoul Kings, Crypt Ghouls, or Crypt Horrors.

    For the Necrarchs, I've always found Zacharias the most interesting and also the most plausible to be a power during the current setting. I do like the idea of him sort of tapping into the dormant spirits of W'Soran and Melkhior through his skill tree though. A start somewhere approximating the Forest of Shadows would be dope.

    I'm not too particular for who the Strigoi character should be so long as it's not Gashnag since he's not really indicative of what a Strigoi Vampire should be like. In any case, a Strigoi faction should start somewhere in the Badlands or Dark Lands and I very much like the idea of a campaign-exclusive Strigany unit and to add to that, a new unit of Charnel Guard would be cool too.

    I'm not sure why, but I've become somewhat attached to the Red Duke and would prefer he be made playable over the other Blood Dragon candidates.
  • MythrilSoulMythrilSoul Registered Users Posts: 1,038
    @Ol_Nessie while i concur with only neffy beign added from the original vamp cast (CA please add walach & zacharias), i think if Vorag is not chosen as the Strigoi character then Gashnag SHOULD have that spot, the guy is basically slowling making a new Morkhain in the border princes
  • xBlood_Raven#5120xBlood_Raven#5120 Registered Users Posts: 982
    Ol_Nessie said:

    I don't think it's entirely necessary to get all of the Bloodline founders in the game with the exception of Neferata. For her faction, I think it'd be a cool idea to make her something of a mirror to Arkhan in that she has access to a few token Tomb Kings units like Tomb Guard with Halberds, Ushabti, Nehekharan Warriors, and Carrion. Also, as she despises the Strigoi she shouldn't have access to Ghoul Kings, Crypt Ghouls, or Crypt Horrors.

    For the Necrarchs, I've always found Zacharias the most interesting and also the most plausible to be a power during the current setting. I do like the idea of him sort of tapping into the dormant spirits of W'Soran and Melkhior through his skill tree though. A start somewhere approximating the Forest of Shadows would be dope.

    I'm not too particular for who the Strigoi character should be so long as it's not Gashnag since he's not really indicative of what a Strigoi Vampire should be like. In any case, a Strigoi faction should start somewhere in the Badlands or Dark Lands and I very much like the idea of a campaign-exclusive Strigany unit and to add to that, a new unit of Charnel Guard would be cool too.

    I'm not sure why, but I've become somewhat attached to the Red Duke and would prefer he be made playable over the other Blood Dragon candidates.

    The first paragraph I mostly agree with. Neferata with some Tomb King units fits her perfectly lore-wise. The latter statement is sort of correct. She despises them but still has use for them considering their was a unit of Ghouls that she used in combat called 'The Wretches'. Increasing the cost of them for Neferata would make sense (would not allow Strigoi Vampires though). The only part I completely disagree with is the Founders as it is possible to get them all into the game and for a game of conquering the world, the Founder leading their Bloodline makes the most sense.

    They're all quite decent. The lore is all over the place with the possible 'body-hopping' so I see W'soran as the main Necrarch, but the option to transform himself into either Melkhior or Zacharias. This means that you have three characters in one which gives plenty of replayability.

    Agree with the whole third paragraph. The Marshes of Madness being put in the last dlc seems quite a hint to Ushoran making it in. Would like to see Gashnag get put in the Border Princes as an unique Lord.

    Abhorash is my favourite for his honorable attitude (and just common sense), but all the Blood Dragons have decent backstories. I'm sure the Red Duke will arrive at some point but I think Mallobaude will take Mousillon. It's why I put a point of both the Red Duke and Mallobaude controlling Mousillon.
  • SerPus#7395SerPus#7395 Registered Users Posts: 9,886

    Abhorash is basically the greatest fighter in the lore but never had rules or a model

    He was too busy being Bretonnian serf.
  • LordSolarMach#5538LordSolarMach#5538 Registered Users Posts: 2,302
    Agree 100% with the themes too. Each Bloodline can give something, and so, a themed pack around each is possible (or a flc update on one of them).


    While each blood line can give something, no individual one can really give enough for a fulfilling LP by itself (IMO). Maybe they could work, if smushed together:

    Nagash + Zacharias* [FLC]
    Necrarch Acolyte
    Patchwork Men
    Morghast Harbingers/Archai
    Dread Abyssal

    Neferata + Ushoran [FLC]
    Lahmian Countess
    Lahmian Handmaidens
    Charnel Guard
    Coven Throne

    The Necrarchs tend to be the most loyal to Nagash, so they kind of go together. And Neferata eventually gave up on trying to clear the Silver Pinnacle of ghouls, so some of Ushoran's lot forced to guard the latrines isn't too far out.

    //

    While Abyssal Terrors and Dread Abyssals are different, I don't know how much their roles would be. They also have to not overlap too heavily with Terrogheists and a potential FLC rider-less Zombie Dragon. I don't think one adds both.

    //

    Another thought I had would be to do a "Return of Nagash" Campaign Pack adding the Vampire Counts race in WHIII (but priced more cheaply than current CPs). That way you could do Nagash plus a handful of Vampire Lords, all with extensive campaign mechanics and unique units for their factions. As well, that way the various remaining units chop suey doesn't seem so out of place.

    //

    *As an aside, the whole "W'Soran -> Melkhior -> Zacharias body jumping to extend one's life" struck me as odd. It's a great, classic, gothic horror trope that fits in perfectly with the Vampire Counts. But it's always seemed a little weird to me that they made a Vampire be the one to do it, and not a line of Necromancers. Vampires are already ageless. (And if W'Soran was doing it to keep a fresh body at all times, he should have been jumping more frequently.)
  • xBlood_Raven#5120xBlood_Raven#5120 Registered Users Posts: 982
    SerPus said:

    Abhorash is basically the greatest fighter in the lore but never had rules or a model

    He was too busy being Bretonnian serf.
    We don't know the exact result of that fight as it never mentions who won it (bar Abhorash swearing an oath to Gilles, maybe it was a stalemate). Regardless, both are heroic figures and helping each other is not a problem for me.

    Agree 100% with the themes too. Each Bloodline can give something, and so, a themed pack around each is possible (or a flc update on one of them).


    While each blood line can give something, no individual one can really give enough for a fulfilling LP by itself (IMO). Maybe they could work, if smushed together:

    Nagash + Zacharias* [FLC]
    Necrarch Acolyte
    Patchwork Men
    Morghast Harbingers/Archai
    Dread Abyssal

    Neferata + Ushoran [FLC]
    Lahmian Countess
    Lahmian Handmaidens
    Charnel Guard
    Coven Throne

    The Necrarchs tend to be the most loyal to Nagash, so they kind of go together. And Neferata eventually gave up on trying to clear the Silver Pinnacle of ghouls, so some of Ushoran's lot forced to guard the latrines isn't too far out.

    //

    While Abyssal Terrors and Dread Abyssals are different, I don't know how much their roles would be. They also have to not overlap too heavily with Terrogheists and a potential FLC rider-less Zombie Dragon. I don't think one adds both.

    //

    Another thought I had would be to do a "Return of Nagash" Campaign Pack adding the Vampire Counts race in WHIII (but priced more cheaply than current CPs). That way you could do Nagash plus a handful of Vampire Lords, all with extensive campaign mechanics and unique units for their factions. As well, that way the various remaining units chop suey doesn't seem so out of place.

    //

    *As an aside, the whole "W'Soran -> Melkhior -> Zacharias body jumping to extend one's life" struck me as odd. It's a great, classic, gothic horror trope that fits in perfectly with the Vampire Counts. But it's always seemed a little weird to me that they made a Vampire be the one to do it, and not a line of Necromancers. Vampires are already ageless. (And if W'Soran was doing it to keep a fresh body at all times, he should have been jumping more frequently.)
    I could work with that, as long as we get all of them eventually! Not all of them need Lord packs, a flc update could give all the Strigoi units for example.

    Abyssal Terrors are the cheaper version while Dread Abyssals are the far superior version (like comparing Vargheist to Morghast. They are similar but still different in roles). Also, can Dread Abyssals fly? I need to check that.

    Like this idea as well. A pack consisting of LLs with an element of new units to flesh them out.

    For W'soran, he had his body destroyed but then possessed his killer Melkhior. It happened again with Zacharias and he was likely possessed as well. Due to the confusing nature of it, I would just start with W'soran and allow him to 'upgrade' himself into Melkhior and Zacharias.
  • SerPus#7395SerPus#7395 Registered Users Posts: 9,886


    We don't know the exact result of that fight as it never mentions who won it

    We do know that Abhorash became Gilles' servant. Or do you think that he just likes to be humiliated? Well, probably he is.


    Abyssal Terrors are the cheaper version while Dread Abyssals are the far superior version (like comparing Vargheist to Morghast. They are similar but still different in roles). Also, can Dread Abyssals fly? I need to check that.

    Abyssal Terrors are regular VC mounts. Dread Abyssals are unique mounts that Nagash granted to Mannfred, Arkhan and Neferata.
  • xBlood_Raven#5120xBlood_Raven#5120 Registered Users Posts: 982
    SerPus said:


    We don't know the exact result of that fight as it never mentions who won it

    We do know that Abhorash became Gilles' servant. Or do you think that he just likes to be humiliated? Well, probably he is.


    Abyssal Terrors are the cheaper version while Dread Abyssals are the far superior version (like comparing Vargheist to Morghast. They are similar but still different in roles). Also, can Dread Abyssals fly? I need to check that.

    Abyssal Terrors are regular VC mounts. Dread Abyssals are unique mounts that Nagash granted to Mannfred, Arkhan and Neferata.
    I would not term it as servant. My view of it is that it was a honour-duel. Gilles seems to have won it and both went their separate ways after the fight (and Abhorash swore to fight alongside Gilles as he is an excellent warrior). It can't be a humiliation as Abhorash is not trying to gain revenge. It is just two amazing warriors fighting together against the evils of the world.

    I know what Abyssal Terrors and Dread Abyssals are. They can be separate units if they need to be as if the resources are spent on them being mounts, we might as well make them units.
  • SerPus#7395SerPus#7395 Registered Users Posts: 9,886

    I would not term it as servant.

    Well, that's exactly what he is, a serf.

    we might as well make them units.

    Dread Abyssals being units would make no sense.

  • LordSolarMach#5538LordSolarMach#5538 Registered Users Posts: 2,302
    edited September 2020
    Lots of restricted mounts have been given SEM versions, I don't see why Dread Abyssals couldn't follow suit.

    //

    (xBlood_Raven, they fly. Per the rules for the Endtimes Mortarchs, where they don't have a separate statline, they all have Fly, Large Target, Feaster of Souls, and Terror. Plus their description mentions ~galloping through the sky.)
  • xBlood_Raven#5120xBlood_Raven#5120 Registered Users Posts: 982

    Lots of restricted mounts have been given SEM versions, I don't see why Dread Abyssals couldn't follow suit.

    //

    (xBlood_Raven, they fly. Per the rules for the Endtimes Mortarchs, where they don't have a separate statline, they all have Fly, Large Target, Feaster of Souls, and Terror. Plus their description mentions ~galloping through the sky.)

    Thanks! I had a quick check on End Times: Nagash and they have joint rules with their selective Lord.
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