DoW speculation and the addition of araby, amazons & halfings

MythrilSoul

Hello everyone! How about some speculation for what to me is the game 3 pre-order bonus (or alternatively a game 3 race pack), it will start with some ideas and thoughts about how they could work as a faction, then mechanics and at the end the LL and units speculation!

DIPLOMACY REWORK
If siege battles are number 1 priority in getting a rework, diplomacy is so close behind that you will need those “finish line photos” to find by how many millimeters behind it is!
The Dogs of war bring the perfect opportunity to fix it, adding more depth for each faction interactions in the diplomacy screen, and, bear with me crazy idea here, allowing you as a non-DoW faction to make your own mercenary contracts against enemy factions!

MINOR POWER RACES OR THE ARABY/AMAZON/HALFLINGS DILLEMA:

Everyone knows that some races will never be added in the Race pack format no matter how much we like them, be because they either are confirmed to not come (RIP araby) or lacking enough units to have even a norsca level roster (amazons & halflings) so this is probably their only chance to be added in the game in some official way.
So I think adding them in the dogs of war roster is a way to still have them in the game, maybe CA will add a way to recruit them for any faction that holds their settlements (like the moot or Al-haik) in the future? Who knows!

DOGS OF WAR

TECHNOLOGY:
similarly to the 3 kingdoms bandit tech tree, you will research mercenary connections with other factions to gain both unit stat, campaign buffs and access to more lucrative contracts and even unique units.
Giving then a norsca inspired tech tree could also work, as you capture famous mercenary settlements you unlock unique technologies and units to recruit.

ECONOMY:
With severely limited infrastructure, trade and mercenary contracts will be your bread and butter when it comes to income, achieving higher amounts of credibility (a mechanic I will explain later) will exponentially increase the rewards from completing contracts and the taxes on trade.

TERRITORY:
each Mercenary faction has a single specific favored climate on which they can settle and build actual cities; anywhere else they will only be able to build mercenary outposts (tier 1 settlements), but depending on where in the world this outpost is, certain regiments and unique units will become available to your recruitment pool for as long as said specific outpost stands. These special settlements can be developed to tier 5.
As a example:
Beorg bearstruck & Mengil should only built settlements on tundra climate.
Fernando pirazzo & Tichi-Huichi should only built settlements on jungle climate.
Ghazak khan & Ruglud Bonechewer should only built settlements on badland climate.
Brunner & Borgio should only built settlements on temperate climate.
You guys get the idea, so instead of having another vampire coast “lustria unstoppable zombie conquest” (where the wandering pirate thing was never a thing) lack of themed campaign, the limited settlement + outposts would rectify said problem to both human player & A.I.

Now onward to racial mechanics and the explanation on mercenary contracts:

SPECIAL RULES:

ARMY FOR HIRE: (semi-horde, vampire coast ship building)
Much like hordes, your military buildings are linked to each individual lord army; multiple armies in the same region have shared recruitment options, with the exception of contract units (auxiliaries). But you can build some military buildings outside your armies in settlements and recruit units there.

MERCENARY GUILD: (Eltharion’s bat cave/ supply mech)
Your faction personal guild, a tab where you can see the contracts available to your company, which lord said contract can be given to complete and its rewards, some contracts are level locked so only high rank mercenary lords/heroes can do them. Your guild facilities can be improved & expanded by spending a “Completion Seal” that is awarded when completing contracts.
CONTRACTS:
contracts are “quests” available to your faction in the mercenary guild contract board given by another faction that you know, these can vary between raiding, sacking, raising or conquering another faction lands in the name of your contractor faction or finding rare trinkets and weapons and giving them back (you can choose to keep said items at the cost of your reward and credibility), completing them will give you great amounts of gold and raise your company credibility and reputation.
REPUTATION:
is your influence with similar alignment factions of your previous contractor (order, destruction and chaos) that are raised when completing a contract, increasing one will raise the amounts of rewards and available contracts from similarly aligned factions but will decrease the ones from the other 2, non-aligned factions are not influenced by this. To unlock the “final contract” quest one of the three contractor’s alignment must be maxed, depending which alignment was maxed, your army will take its side in the final contract quest battle.
CREDIBILITY:
is the percentage of success of your company have in delivering what is asked in accepted contracts, it will grow the more contracts you complete and the higher your credibility is, the fatter the rewards will become. But don’t think keeping a clean reputation is easy in this line of work, breaking or failing to complete contracts will reduce your credibility and make you get reduced income from future contracts with this contractor; also factions that oppose your contractor will sometimes give you tantalizing deals for working against your contractor that will severely mark your company credibility if accepted.

AUXILIARIES:
Units that derive from the roster of the faction that contracted your services, which will be added to the specific lord army “recruit auxiliary” pool when said contract is fulfilled. They are limited in number and once lost you will no longer be able to recruit them unless you do more contracts to the faction they came from. Easy and short contracts will give early or mid-tier units, but hard and challenging ones will give you powerful elite units.

IT'S JUST BUSINESS:
certain diplomacy elements are changed when you accept a contract, your armies will have increased movement range and gain military access and non-aggression pact instantly with the faction whose contract was accepted; diplomacy rating will increase and decrease at very reduced rates respectably with the involved factions – contractor and target. When conquering another faction settlement, outside of a contract, you will be given the option to sell it to said faction enemies, use it as a hostage for massive but temporary diplomacy swings with said faction or keep it to yourself; attacking the same settlement you sold or kept hostage will cause lots of damage to your relations with the related faction and reduce your credibility.

RENOWNED MERCENARIES:
Achieving higher levels of credibility unlocks Famous Mercenary generals to work for your company, convince them by bribing or defeating them in combat. Any Lord that while cool would not make the cut of being in the LL should be added here!

LOYALTY:
each lord (non-LL) have different levels of loyalty that shifts based in the way you treat them; events related with said lord loyalty will randomly occur, giving options on how to deal with it (some are triggered by having too high or too low loyalty), depending how you respond they may keep working for you, split off or even rebel against you.
Mabe making loyalty based only in your credibilty & reputation

ARMY ROSTER:
The supreme jack-of-all-trades with access to all kinds of ingenious ragtag mercenaries, each lord has access to all mercenary guild units for the basic army roles, gaining access to other faction’s troops when completing contracts. Its greatest weakness through is the absolute lack of elite units readily available, with those being recruited by completing hard or long contacts or by occupying settlements with famous mercenary hubs.

There should be 3 ways to mercenary lords to acquire units outside of auxiliaries in contracts, these being:
- Mercenary troupe buildings (aka your horde buildings)
(lord) mercenary general, (hero) paymaster, (hero) brigadier, (hero) hireling wizard, free lance knights, monster hunters, mounted company, Bounty hunter party, Brigand marksmen, sellsword troupe

- legendary lord exclusives: in a maximum of 4 units from their actual race
like Dorf units only available to Long drong, runemasters, dwarf warriors, thunderers
skink units only available to Tichi-Huichi, cold one riders, skink chieftain, bastilodon
vampire count units only available to gashnag, ghouls, strigoi ghoul-kings, varghulfs

- Settlement exclusive units, to exemplify:
Marienburg unlocks Landships
Albion unlocks Woad giants
Sartosa unlocks Sartosan Pirates
Pigbarter unlocks Gnoblars or Hobgoblins
Al-haikk unlocks arabyan units
The moot unlocks Halfling units
Miragliano unlocks galloper guns or marksmen of miragliano
Verezzo (a new settlement) unlocks catrazza’s birdmen
Barak varr unlocks slayer pirates
Magritta unlocks Estalian Bandolleros & Caballeros
Port reaver unlocks the lost legion
Etc…

This way both in campaign and multiplayer the dogs of war army composition will always be a wild ride to use & fight against as while they don’t have much in elites they sure have in options.

LEGENDARY LORD OPTIONS:

This is where most speculation is, as each one of them must have a specific climate and units associated with them, giving ideas on what they could get in units and mechanics is something that could take days so how about for each LL you advocate to be in as playable you give what exclusive mechanics & units they should have?

Possible Lords of Renown, aka cool but not good enough to be a main LL, list

Al Muktar (werner glook)
Anaconda
Lorenzo Lupo
Morgan Bernhardt
Lietpold the Black
Fernando pirazzo
Ruglud Bonechewer
Torston Treehaka
Long Drong
Tichi-Huichi

Main contenders for LL

- Borgio the besieger, focus on conquering all southern realms and not getting yourself killed, maybe a reworked “sun ce luck mechanic” could in some way work for him
- Lucrezzia belladonna, focus on controlling the southern realms master poisoner & sorceress of shadows, maybe a mechanic where she finds her next victim 8th husband?
- Asarnil the dragon lord, conquer enough fame and treasures to buy pardon from Finubar & finally go back to ulthuan
- Beorg bearstruck, access to norsca units and mechanics, justifiable vortex position at skeggi
- Brunner the bounty hunter, poster man mercenary, has his own novel and fought archaon
- Gashnag the black prince, strigoi that plays the accursed prince role, building a new morkhain in the border princes, access to ghouls & strigois
- Ulrika magdova, famous character, own trilogy & worked as a mercenary in them, access to Vampire Counts units
- Mydas the mean, paymaster lord campaign focused in finding his lost treasures and running away from his debts with Sheikh Yadosh, a way to technically have araby as he would have access to arabyan units
Fatandira, owns a principality and became rich doing mercenary works, also a way to technically have araby as she would have access to arabyan units
Mengil manhide, travelling cannibal elf troupe that worked basically everywhere in the world so easy justification to place him anywhere
Lumpin Croop, adds halflings! Does he really need other justification to be in? well the guy is basically reverse thanquol, every time he does something that should go wrong its becomes right, when he tries to flee his followers they find him and they think he was training them in tracking, when he runs from battle his followers thinks he is repositioning and they find a favorable spot to fight the enemy, he's good at everything except ditching his company and going back to the moot

My personal 4 (which is the usual number for race packs) favorites to be added as playable lords are:
Mydas, Borgio, Lucrezzia & Gashnag
But if CA decides to add the number up to 6, then Lumpin Croop & Asarnil are the other 2!
So tell me what do you guys think of these ideas? Which Characters will be LL?
What else could be added as mechanics for the DoW?

#324448

Love the idea of contracts, I think that's a must-have fort the Dogs of War. Like you've said, they shouldn't be empire builders, they should be dependent on completing contracts. Their win condition could even reflect this. A diplomacy overhaul would go great with this, and I could see it being similar to the Bandit mechanic from Three Kingdoms.

Personally think the core roster should be centered around the Southern Realms, with most your units being sellswords from Tilea, Estalia, the Border Princes, etc. with a couple of base roster units from the more exotic groups like Amazons, Araby, and Halflings. Definitely think there shouldn't be any core units from other factions already in the game though, you get those using the unique Auxiliary mechanic. I think it'd be cool if, after completing a mission for Dwarfs, you could recruit some Dwarf Warriors from a pool similar to the "Raise Dead" recruitment style.

I think contracts should be complex and heavily fleshed-out for this faction. Defend a settlement for 5 turns, conquer a settlement for your client's faction (it would go them upon defeating its garrison), assassinate an enemy hero, later in the game you could get missions to destroy entire other factions. It has a lot of potential. I think it'd be nice if, if you were to attack an enemy faction specifically to fulfill a contract, you don't actuallyt "go to war" with them. Once the contract is complete, hostilities cease, and you just get a severe diplomatic penalty with them.

Also think it'd be cool if certain factions had a small chance to betray you, like Dark Elves or Skaven. They're untrustworthy, and while they promise great rewards, taking contracts from them would carry an element of risk as they could immediately attack you after you defeat their enemies for them.

Ol_Nessie#9894

That's a lot of mechanics for a pre-order race. Something with that kind of complexity I would have to think would only come via campaign pack. Very cool ideas though.

Concerning the roster, it really shouldn't be just a grab bag of different races' units nor do I think that any unit from any race should be fair game. DoW do have a defined and distinct roster as published in White Dwarf and republished in WH Chronicles. http://img.4plebs.org/boards/tg/image/1412/59/1412599710057.pdf

Now there's obviously room to add to that roster and in fact, GW did add to it periodically after its publishing. Giants for example were added in a later edition of White Dwarf. But at it's core, I think the DoW army should be more or less themed around the Tilean troops and characters if only to give them their own identity and niche. Foreign troops would certainly add some variety and I relish the thought of the chance to add troops from the Halflings, Amazons, Albion, Araby, etc. since we likely won't see them outside of this opportunity.

In my mind, the roster could really be broken down into 4 categories:

- Tilean/Southern Realms staples- This includes all types of Pikemen, Crossbowmen, Duellists, Cavalry, and whatever artillery they might get. There should be no real obstacles to recruiting these types of units
- Foreign generic troops- These would be units that aren't native to Tilea yet are commonly found in DoW armies like Ogres, Dwarfs, Norscans, Halflings, Giants, etc. There should be some kind of limiting factor for recruiting these such as provincial recruitment, possession of a specific character, construction of a specific building, or even unit caps.
- Tilean/SR RoRs- This encompasses units like Ricco's Republican Guard, Vespero's Vendetta, Bronzino's Galloper Guns, Birdmen of Catrazza, etc. These would function like the RoRs of other races and as such would be tied to your faction leader's rank.
- Foreign RoRs- Units like Long Drong's Slayer Pirates, Beorg's Bearmen, Giants of Albion, Tichi Huichi's Raiders, Asarnil the Dragonlord etc. CA could get very creative with the recruitment of these units and there's already a wide array of possibilities such as the TK's Legions of Legend, VCoast's Pieces of 8, LM Blessed Spawnings, and Empire's State Troops. And that's not to say that they all have to be recruited the same way; there could be different methods of recruiting each one.

For the LL choices, I'd defer to the sentiment I outlined above where I think there should be some semblance of a theme and identity running throughout the race and as such I'd prefer to see the Tilean/Southern Realms characters take precedence. In order of priority I'd probably pick:

- Borgio the Besieger- focus on artillery and missile troops with a bonus to research rate. He should personally have the siege attacker trait (obviously) and some kind of high ward save at a low HP threshold
- Lucrezzia Belladonna- token caster Lord with either Death or Shadows. She should have some agent perks like bonus to assassination attempts and maybe grant poison to her heroes
- Lorenzo Lupo- footbound duellist character with a focus on melee infantry and leadership buffs with some kind of bonus to sacking and post-battle loot
- Lietpold the Black- a very duplicitous character, perhaps with some kind of diplomatic bonuses with destruction races or bonuses to recruiting foreign troops of that alignment and maybe a faction-wide upkeep bonus
- Fernando Pirazzo- Melee/Ranged hybrid fighter and something of a composite character with Marco Colombo with campaign movement/ line of sight bonuses, and diplomatic bonuses with LM

MythrilSoul

@Giveaway412
@Ol_Nessie

Thanks for the thoughs, the grabbag thing was more of a fill the holes of the roster (didnt know about that WH chronicles) and to add to the feeling of ragtag group of mercs from all around the world.

That part about guys like mengil & tichi-huichi recruiting units from their original races was to in my mind to be like 4 units max from said rosters not everything the og races have, sorry for giving the wrong idea.

Also both Lorenzo and luitpold are kinda meh, they dont have much of unique to add even though they are from tilea and Lorenzo has a amazing asthetic, thats why i prefer characters like gashnag & Asarnil they are every different from lucrezzia or borgio in gameplay style, starting positions & campaign objectives while keeping the mercenary theme.

BrynjarK#6108

Very well written.

About siege and diplomacy. If Warhammer 3 gets a solid diplomacy it's as important of not more than siege in my opinion, thats taking it to the next level.

I like your approach to faction loadouts (when comparing to the Kislev which is more locked in) the dogs have a lot more wiggle room.

I've always been a Cathay kinda guy, i thought they could bring a lot to the table in the sense of new ideas. Tthere's a reason why Mr. Franz doesn't have a dragon yet, i silently giggle.

But to represent the human palette in a world of monsters (mm sweet monsters..) the dogs could present a new and nice way of playing them, making them powerful not too stationary and very adaptable. Im in.

BrynjarK#6108

x2

#324448

Ol_Nessie said:

-snipped for length-

I like your ideas as well. I was just going to leave out the "Foreign" RoRs in my pitch but being able to recruit them via some unique mechanic would be neat. I do, however, think that the auxiliary mechanic still has a place, in order to recruit a number of other units outside the core roster. I don't think units like Dwarf Warriors, Norscan Marauders, etc. should be considered part of the core Dogs of War roster, but being able to recruit limited amounts of them in the campaign would be nice. I do think that units like the Halflings and Albion Giant should be considered part of the core roster though, as they don't really have a race to call "home". I also think the Marienburg Landship should be considered part of the core DoW roster. Even if it technically belongs to Marienburg, Marienburg is quite similar to the Southern Realms in being an independent trade-focused city-state, and the Landship seems quite fitting for the Dogs of War's theme of foreign adventure.

MythrilSoul said:

Thanks for the thoughs, the grabbag thing was more of a fill the holes of the roster (didnt know about that WH chronicles) and to add to the feeling of ragtag group of mercs from all around the world.

That part about guys like mengil & tichi-huichi recruiting units from their original races was to in my mind to be like 4 units max from said rosters not everything the og races have, sorry for giving the wrong idea.

Also both Lorenzo and luitpold are kinda meh, they dont have much of unique to add even though they are from tilea and Lorenzo has a amazing asthetic, thats why i prefer characters like gashnag & Asarnil they are every different from lucrezzia or borgio in gameplay style, starting positions & campaign objectives while keeping the mercenary theme.

They could easily be made unique through campaign mechanics. Somebody had the great idea to make Lorenzo start in Albion, trying to reconquer the lands his distant ancestors once conquered, and I personally think he could have a bity more focus on taking settlements as he tries to rebuild his people's old empire. Sort of a hybrid between a Dogs of War faction and a traditional Total War faction. Leitpold could provide a start in the Border Princes and be unique in that he's a complete and utter bastard, with a playstyle encouraging treachery and wealth-hoarding. Mydas could be good for this as well.

As a side-note, I think it'd be cool if the contract mechanic could be used by the Ogre Kingdoms as well, as they're known to take mercenary jobs. Unlike the Dogs, I wouldn't make it central to their campaign, or restrict units/technology/campaign objectives behind it- for them, it'd just be a way to get some extra food and gold, but it'd be cool if they had it.

Ol_Nessie#9894

MythrilSoul said:

Also both Lorenzo and luitpold are kinda meh, they dont have much of unique to add even though they are from tilea and Lorenzo has a amazing asthetic, thats why i prefer characters like gashnag & Asarnil they are every different from lucrezzia or borgio in gameplay style, starting positions & campaign objectives while keeping the mercenary theme.

I get what you're saying, but I don't really like either of those 2 options for a few reasons. First, instead of contributing to a common identity, those characters would basically just make the DoW look like the leftovers night of TW Races and would serve to obscure the underlying theme that should at least be present among the leaders of the DoW race. In the leadership at least, humans should feature prominently as they're the ones most likely to be mercenaries as GW indicates in the DoW army book:

Additionally, we already have characters like them in TW:WH. Asarnil probably won't be much different from Imrik on the battlefield and while we don't actually have a named Strigoi character yet, I hardly think that role should go to a character outside the Vampire Counts race.

Secondly, I've got critiques on an individual level for both of them; Asarnil was always an RoR unit in the DoW publications, not a Lord or Hero. He never led armies in the lore and couldn't be a general on TT. I think the RoR role would suit him better in TW since you'd be able to field him in addition to whoever your general is. Furthermore, I don't see any logical or intuitive faction focus for him were he to be a LL, unlike Lorenzo or Lietpold.

Gashnag is barely more than a color piece written to give some character to the Border Princes for the RPG. He never had a TT presence, either as a model or rules and, while CA have skirted that obstacle before, he's not even a mercenary nor does he have all that much tying him to the idea of the DoW except for the fact that he resides in the Border Princes. He clashes with the overall principal philosophy of the DoW race in my opinion.

Lorenzo and Lietpold on the other hand are perfect fits. They might not be overly strong on the battlefield compared to LLs of other races but that really shouldn't be a strength or focus of the DoW. The focus really should be on the unique and colorful regiments of mercenary troops.

Lorenzo's campaign could be focused on him fighting for his claim to the throne of Luccini. For start positions, one of the coolest ideas I've heard is to have him start on or around Albion in a sort of emulation of a former Tilean general (Lorenzo has a thing for history) and give him some Albion units in his starting army. Lietpold could start in the Border Princes (same as Gashnag hypothetically would) and his campaign would be focused on carving out his petty kingdom while also evading the bounties on his own head. He'd be a great foil to Borgio in that respect, a bit like Arkhan is to Settra.

Ol_Nessie#9894

Giveaway412 said:

I like your ideas as well. I was just going to leave out the "Foreign" RoRs in my pitch but being able to recruit them via some unique mechanic would be neat. I do, however, think that the auxiliary mechanic still has a place, in order to recruit a number of other units outside the core roster. I don't think units like Dwarf Warriors, Norscan Marauders, etc. should be considered part of the core Dogs of War roster, but being able to recruit limited amounts of them in the campaign would be nice. I do think that units like the Halflings and Albion Giant should be considered part of the core roster though, as they don't really have a race to call "home". I also think the Marienburg Landship should be considered part of the core DoW roster. Even if it technically belongs to Marienburg, Marienburg is quite similar to the Southern Realms in being an independent trade-focused city-state, and the Landship seems quite fitting for the Dogs of War's theme of foreign adventure.

If I were to make a change to the DoW roster from WD, I'd cast the Dwarf and Norscan units in supporting roles instead of as front line Dwarf Warriors or Norscan Marauders. So perhaps DoW could recruit Norscan Hunters for some anti-large or armor piercing missile troops and (improved) Dwarf Miners or Rangers for some vanguard troops with AP weapon damage, all of which might be lacking in the DoW roster otherwise.

I don't think you really need to specify the Giants in the DoW roster as Albion Giants unless you're talking about the RoR. WD released rules for fielding a mercenary Giant in a DoW army:

The thing I don't like about the Landship is that it would make the DoW more similar to the Empire when I really think CA should be trying to make them distinct. Perhaps it too could be an RoR or just have a hard cap, but then again Steam Tanks should probably be capped too.

One thing I would like to see though is for the Amazon Serpent Priestess, Albion Truthsayer, and Dark Emissary to be used as the models for the DoW Hireling Wizards, or even just fully implemented as distinct heroes with their own unique lores.

Giveaway412 said:

As a side-note, I think it'd be cool if the contract mechanic could be used by the Ogre Kingdoms as well, as they're known to take mercenary jobs. Unlike the Dogs, I wouldn't make it central to their campaign, or restrict units/technology/campaign objectives behind it- for them, it'd just be a way to get some extra food and gold, but it'd be cool if they had it.

I think they should implement that mechanic in full for Golgfag's faction if and when we get him. So in addition to being an Ogre Kingdoms LL, he could kind of be an honorary DoW character as well as he's the most famous Ogre Mercenary.

MythrilSoul

Ol_Nessie said:

The thing I don't like about the Landship is that it would make the DoW more similar to the Empire when I really think CA should be trying to make them distinct. Perhaps it too could be an RoR or just have a hard cap, but then again Steam Tanks should probably be capped too.


I think they should implement that mechanic in full for Golgfag's faction if and when we get him. So in addition to being an Ogre Kingdoms LL, he could kind of be an honorary DoW character as well as he's the most famous Ogre Mercenary.

in the case of the landship or other overly powerful unit maybe do something like empire province units, where you can only recruit one after 15 or 10 turns, it will certanly reduce the "just recruit X unit in all armies" thingy.

Golgfag receiving Mercenary mechanics, 100% what Nessie said! you cant have the most famous mercenary in the world and not give him mercenary mechanics!

Wyvax#7456

I've often wondered if Araby can be included if it's culture is lumped in as another member of the "Southern Realms". Realistically Estalia, Tilea and the Border Princes are as different as Bretonnia, the Empire and Kislev, but when it comes to their economy and militaries they all (plus Araby) share the same city state, mercantile and mercenary formula. So as long as men of the Southern Realms all have generic Mediterranean tan to them then you could use the same basic models for both Southern European styled troops and North African styled troops. Similar to how Kislev has the Ungol and Gospodars making up their people.

#324448

Ol_Nessie said:

I don't think you really need to specify the Giants in the DoW roster as Albion Giants unless you're talking about the RoR. WD released rules for fielding a mercenary Giant in a DoW army:

The thing I don't like about the Landship is that it would make the DoW more similar to the Empire when I really think CA should be trying to make them distinct. Perhaps it too could be an RoR or just have a hard cap, but then again Steam Tanks should probably be capped too.

One thing I would like to see though is for the Amazon Serpent Priestess, Albion Truthsayer, and Dark Emissary to be used as the models for the DoW Hireling Wizards, or even just fully implemented as distinct heroes with their own unique lores.

Oh yeah, it's true that the Giants of Albion were an RoR, but I always found that a bit of a puzzling decision seeing as Albion is known to have a lot of Giants- it seems strange to limit them to being a unique, rare thing by making them an RoR. They could be an RoR but I'd probably give the Dogs of War's regular mercenary Giants an Albion flair just to set them apart from other Giants.

I don't really have a problem with the Dogs of War being similar to the Empire because I see them as being that way deliberately. Tilea and Estalia almost seem like sister civilizations in a way, very much sharing a lot with the Empire, even the same pantheon. In gameplay, I see the Dogs of War being the Vampire Coast to the Empire's Vampire Counts- similar in some ways, distinctly different in others. Besides, no other race has a Steam Tank-like unit (except for maybe the Doomwheel), and the Landship could be made different in its own ways: being larger, slower, and with more guns in exchange for less maneuverability, a war galleon in the sea of battle.

I think the model thing is a cool idea, though I would hope for there to be some regular Southern Realms variants of the Hireling Wizards. One thing I would want to make sure is that the Dogs of War don't lose their ties to the Southern Realms amidst all their exotic flavor, so I think keeping the core aesthetic of the faction close to Tilea and its neighbors would be best. A part of me even considers replacing the Amazons with Templars of Myrmidia, to give the Mymidia cults of the Southern Realms some more presence even at the expense of the Amazons.

BrynjarK#6108

The thing about Albion and their giants, yes they had a good deal of them. But they only reluctantly gave a few of them up to the invading forces. And they didn't even give them up, the giants voluntarily left for the greater good and gave their loyalty to others as an means to an end, an ugly war of attrition Albion would probably loose in the end.

If you want the full arsenal of Albion and the forces there it should be a seperate army, they didn't just pass the giants o like you pass the potatoes. Thats why RoR is reasonably fitting in my humblest of humblest opinions

Ol_Nessie#9894

Wyvax said:

I've often wondered if Araby can be included if it's culture is lumped in as another member of the "Southern Realms". Realistically Estalia, Tilea and the Border Princes are as different as Bretonnia, the Empire and Kislev, but when it comes to their economy and militaries they all (plus Araby) share the same city state, mercantile and mercenary formula. So as long as men of the Southern Realms all have generic Mediterranean tan to them then you could use the same basic models for both Southern European styled troops and North African styled troops. Similar to how Kislev has the Ungol and Gospodars making up their people.

I don't think Araby has that much of an affinity for mercenaries, though I do think that they could make an appearance here and there in the DoW roster. Most obvious of course would be as the RoR Al Muktar's Desert Dogs and by extension they could probably have some models peppered into the generic "Light Cavalry" (more imaginative name needed; I like "Free Riders") unit alongside some Kislevite Ungol Horsemen.

Though since we're not going to get a full Araby race, I suppose a few more units that could have been in that roster might be rolled into the Dogs of War. And something interesting I found in the DoW army book, there's a reference to a unit called "Khalag's Sure Shots" which was never expanded upon following that publishing. Maybe that was supposed to be another Arabyan themed RoR.

Giveaway412 said:

I don't really have a problem with the Dogs of War being similar to the Empire because I see them as being that way deliberately. Tilea and Estalia almost seem like sister civilizations in a way, very much sharing a lot with the Empire, even the same pantheon. In gameplay, I see the Dogs of War being the Vampire Coast to the Empire's Vampire Counts- similar in some ways, distinctly different in others. Besides, no other race has a Steam Tank-like unit (except for maybe the Doomwheel), and the Landship could be made different in its own ways: being larger, slower, and with more guns in exchange for less maneuverability, a war galleon in the sea of battle.

I realize I'm fighting a losing battle on the Landship, with most people advocating for its inclusion, but the fact that the Steam Tank is unique is partially why giving the DoW the Landship would be a disservice in my opinion. The Steam Tank is kinda the marquee centerpiece unit of the Empire and giving a knockoff to the DoW just makes it seem a bit cheap. It'd be a bit like giving the Chaos Dwarfs a knockoff Anvil of Doom.

I think describing the DoW as the VCoast to the Empire's VCounts is selling them short. For one, the Coast being similar to the Counts is more forgivable since there is that extra novelty of being undead pirates to them in addition to all of the cool creatures they were able to cobble together for the race. I'd think that the DoW need to be about as distinct from the Empire as Bretonnia is. That might not be setting the bar all that high, but I think the differences between the Empire and Bretonnia are significant enough.

Giveaway412 said:

I think the model thing is a cool idea, though I would hope for there to be some regular Southern Realms variants of the Hireling Wizards. One thing I would want to make sure is that the Dogs of War don't lose their ties to the Southern Realms amidst all their exotic flavor, so I think keeping the core aesthetic of the faction close to Tilea and its neighbors would be best. A part of me even considers replacing the Amazons with Templars of Myrmidia, to give the Mymidia cults of the Southern Realms some more presence even at the expense of the Amazons.

Might just be me, but the appearance of Southern Realms Hireling Wizards isn't exactly a burning question for me. Just based on their descriptions in those lists, I can't imagine CA making them much different from Empire Wizards in appearance, albeit without the variety between lores. I'd rather see some of those cool models make into TW.

Concerning the aesthetic of the race, that's a very valid concern and I think there's a sweet spot that CA needs to hit. They need to be grounded enough in a theme so that they don't look like just a smorgasbord of random elements, but they need to be eye-catching and exotic enough not to be boring. I'd say probably around 50% of the units and characters, including all generals and LLs, should be Tilean/Southern Realms in origin, another 30% should be humans of varying origin like the Empire, Kislev, Araby, Amazons, Albion, etc., and the remaining 20% should be from other races.

Ol_Nessie#9894

MythrilSoul said:

Golgfag receiving Mercenary mechanics, 100% what Nessie said! you cant have the most famous mercenary in the world and not give him mercenary mechanics!

They could also do something similar for Tordimir Lubovasyn, the commander of the Gryphon Legion, if he ends up being one of the Kislev LLs.

Mad_D0c_#1516

Pls no GS and anything connected with Chaos should get the ability for hiring DoW and nothing of them should be recruitable for DoW.

Araby in DoW, yes pls

But no halfling or amazon LLs only as recruitable/tech lords.

Beorg Bearstruck should be Norscan LL.

Dont mix to many of existing units in the DoW. Rather want some new unit of this races for DoW (which could be recruited by their race with a special dilemma/settlement or so if you own DoW. For example Slayer pirates come with DoW DLC and if you own game 1 and the DLC you can recruit them for the dwarfs.

Captain_Rex#1635

I agree with Albion, Araby and Halflings getting the Fimir treatment for the DoW but Amazons should really be their own race.

Would be the perfect preorder bonus in my opinion.

#324448

Ol_Nessie said:

I don't think Araby has that much of an affinity for mercenaries, though I do think that they could make an appearance here and there in the DoW roster. Most obvious of course would be as the RoR Al Muktar's Desert Dogs and by extension they could probably have some models peppered into the generic "Light Cavalry" (more imaginative name needed; I like "Free Riders") unit alongside some Kislevite Ungol Horsemen.

Though since we're not going to get a full Araby race, I suppose a few more units that could have been in that roster might be rolled into the Dogs of War. And something interesting I found in the DoW army book, there's a reference to a unit called "Khalag's Sure Shots" which was never expanded upon following that publishing. Maybe that was supposed to be another Arabyan themed RoR.

They could make an appearance here or there, though I wouldn't want to see entire Dogs of War factions down in Araby standing in for Araby factions. I don't think you can pass off Tilean Pikes and Crossbowmen as Arabyan troops, as I think the original poster was suggesting.

I do agree that unit names like "Light Cavalry" and "Heavy Cavalry" need to be changed. I always went with "Broken Lances" for Light Cavalry, imagining a whole group of Estalian Don Quixotes knockoffs with rusted lances and broken-down armor. But Free Riders are a better name, and I definitely agree that Al Muktar's Desert Dogs need to make some kind of appearance.

Ol_Nessie said:

I realize I'm fighting a losing battle on the Landship, with most people advocating for its inclusion, but the fact that the Steam Tank is unique is partially why giving the DoW the Landship would be a disservice in my opinion. The Steam Tank is kinda the marquee centerpiece unit of the Empire and giving a knockoff to the DoW just makes it seem a bit cheap. It'd be a bit like giving the Chaos Dwarfs a knockoff Anvil of Doom.

I think describing the DoW as the VCoast to the Empire's VCounts is selling them short. For one, the Coast being similar to the Counts is more forgivable since there is that extra novelty of being undead pirates to them in addition to all of the cool creatures they were able to cobble together for the race. I'd think that the DoW need to be about as distinct from the Empire as Bretonnia is. That might not be setting the bar all that high, but I think the differences between the Empire and Bretonnia are significant enough.

Oh yeah, I definitely see your point. Faction diversity is key in Warhammer and I don't think there should be anything in one faction that takes away from another. The last thing I'd want to do is make the Empire less cool. I agree that the Dogs of War should strive to be as unique as Bretonnia is, but there is the fundamental problem that the Empire and the Dogs of War are both based off the same era of warfare, which is pike and shot. I don't think you can entirely separate them. The Empire and the Dogs of War are similar to each other, just as the VCounts and VCoast are, being kingdoms of men and kingdoms of vampires respectively, with vaguely similar aesthetics in some regards. However, while the Empire and VCounts are both traditional empire-builders, the Dogs of War and VCoast are both more focused on separate, unique, profit-oriented goals. That's why I see similarities.

Ultimately, my justification for the Landship is threefold.
1. Building off that similarity; just as the Necrofex Colossus, a Vampire Count unit in the Monstrous Arcanum, was modified and given to the Vampire Coast, I think it is likely that CA will take the Landship, an Empire unit in the Monstrous Arcanum, modify it and give it to the Vampire Coast.
2. Marienburg is an Empire faction but I think it's quite similar to the Southern Realms in that it's an independent, trade-focused city-state. In fact, they probably sell a lot of the Landships they make.
3. The Dogs of War are the principle group that sails the globe to pillage jungle temples and sell their services to far away powers. Having a literal sea-faring galleon as the trump card of their roster feels incredibly appropriate in my book.

However, I don't want you to think you're fighting a "losing battle", this is just a friendly discussion and I just want to explain my reasoning for liking the Landship as a Dogs of War unit.

Ol_Nessie said:

Might just be me, but the appearance of Southern Realms Hireling Wizards isn't exactly a burning question for me. Just based on their descriptions in those lists, I can't imagine CA making them much different from Empire Wizards in appearance, albeit without the variety between lores. I'd rather see some of those cool models make into TW.

Concerning the aesthetic of the race, that's a very valid concern and I think there's a sweet spot that CA needs to hit. They need to be grounded enough in a theme so that they don't look like just a smorgasbord of random elements, but they need to be eye-catching and exotic enough not to be boring. I'd say probably around 50% of the units and characters, including all generals and LLs, should be Tilean/Southern Realms in origin, another 30% should be humans of varying origin like the Empire, Kislev, Araby, Amazons, Albion, etc., and the remaining 20% should be from other races.

They might not be much different (no models existed) but I always pictured the Hirelings being similar to Hedge Wizards, illegal back-alley magic users with tattered robes, mad eyes, hobo beards, etc. It's a look that I'd like to see to some degree. But I'd like to see the other models you mentioned as well.

I think your analysis is spot-on, though I might be bold and raise the percentage of Southern Realms humans to 60% or even 70%. I definitely want them to be the bread and butter of the faction. There's a lot of different people to represent even in the Southern Realms, with mercenaries coming from Tilea, Estalia, and the Border Princes, and unique visuals that come with them. Conquistadors, black-clothed Duelists, elite Roman-inspired troops, the knightly houses of Tilea and Estalia, the patchwork and hodge-podge look of some of the units, etc. I think it can be enough for a complete faction by itself, even before you add in Amazons, Halflings, and other foreign units.

MythrilSoul

Ol_Nessie said:

I realize I'm fighting a losing battle on the Landship, with most people advocating for its inclusion, but the fact that the Steam Tank is unique is partially why giving the DoW the Landship would be a disservice in my opinion. The Steam Tank is kinda the marquee centerpiece unit of the Empire and giving a knockoff to the DoW just makes it seem a bit cheap. It'd be a bit like giving the Chaos Dwarfs a knockoff Anvil of Doom.

Concerning the aesthetic of the race, that's a very valid concern and I think there's a sweet spot that CA needs to hit. They need to be grounded enough in a theme so that they don't look like just a smorgasbord of random elements, but they need to be eye-catching and exotic enough not to be boring. I'd say probably around 50% of the units and characters, including all generals and LLs, should be Tilean/Southern Realms in origin, another 30% should be humans of varying origin like the Empire, Kislev, Araby, Amazons, Albion, etc., and the remaining 20% should be from other races.

The battle is only lost when you give up, but to corroborate the point of @Giveaway412 the uniqueness of the steam tank will drop anyway at game 3 with the chaos dwarfs "iron daemon" even though it works like a steam train.
the landship could have a different niche making it much more mobile but frailer and not unbreakeble.

The human merc aesthetic should be like you said at a sweet 50% southern realms humans and 50% jumble of units from different places & races

MythrilSoul

_Mad_D0c_ said:

Pls no GS and anything connected with Chaos should get the ability for hiring DoW and nothing of them should be recruitable for DoW.

Beorg Bearstruck should be Norscan LL.

Dont mix to many of existing units in the DoW. Rather want some new unit of this races for DoW (which could be recruited by their race with a special dilemma/settlement or so if you own DoW. For example Slayer pirates come with DoW DLC and if you own game 1 and the DLC you can recruit them for the dwarfs.

i mean, both the bearmen of oslo & roglund's armored orcs are in the DoW book and mercenaries only care that the gold flow not from were it comes, so i think giving GS & Chaos opportunity to use the Dow is fair game.

Good point on Beorg though, if norsca gets the WE treatment Beorg is the best candidate as he is not alighned with one of the 4 chaos & is famous for his raids around the coast.

some mercs like amazons & halflings that you only find in a specific place on the map should be recruitable by any race that holds said place in my opinion (but some races shouldnt have access to certain units, for example,GS cannot recruit halflings as they prefer to eat & use them as target pratice more than gobbos)

#324448

MythrilSoul said:

_Mad_D0c_ said:

Pls no GS and anything connected with Chaos should get the ability for hiring DoW and nothing of them should be recruitable for DoW.

Beorg Bearstruck should be Norscan LL.

Dont mix to many of existing units in the DoW. Rather want some new unit of this races for DoW (which could be recruited by their race with a special dilemma/settlement or so if you own DoW. For example Slayer pirates come with DoW DLC and if you own game 1 and the DLC you can recruit them for the dwarfs.

i mean, both the bearmen of oslo & roglund's armored orcs are in the DoW book and mercenaries only care that the gold flow not from were it comes, so i think giving GS & Chaos opportunity to use the Dow is fair game.

Good point on Beorg though, if norsca gets the WE treatment Beorg is the best candidate as he is not alighned with one of the 4 chaos & is famous for his raids around the coast.

some mercs like amazons & halflings that you only find in a specific place on the map should be recruitable by any race that holds said place in my opinion (but some races shouldnt have access to certain units, for example,GS cannot recruit halflings as they prefer to eat & use them as target pratice more than gobbos)

Honestly even if they were in the army book, I think it's unlikely we'll see Ruglud or any of the Chaos units in the Dogs of War. That army book is old lore and some of the material is outdated, the setting became more grimdark and it's unlikely that we'll see anything GS or Chaos related. Orcs became more hostile to non-green races and have no love of money, and while some Norscan Marauders might travel the world for pay, the overwhelming majority of Chaos units are completely devoted to their dark and terrible gods.

MythrilSoul

@Giveaway412
To me the 40K'fication of warhammer fantasy that started back at 6th edition was a cancer that helped kill the setting, no more ulrican norscans, no more different GS and humans interacting in anyway beyond fighting, the overwhelming focus on chaos & empire, the abandonment of minor races like araby, kislev, estalia, tilea and even major races like Beastmen, tomb kings and Brettonia.

Also old lore doesnt mean its never coming, the high elf rangers are older than the existence tomb kings yet they made the cut

Ol_Nessie#9894

Giveaway412 said:

They could make an appearance here or there, though I wouldn't want to see entire Dogs of War factions down in Araby standing in for Araby factions. I don't think you can pass off Tilean Pikes and Crossbowmen as Arabyan troops, as I think the original poster was suggesting.

I do agree that unit names like "Light Cavalry" and "Heavy Cavalry" need to be changed. I always went with "Broken Lances" for Light Cavalry, imagining a whole group of Estalian Don Quixotes knockoffs with rusted lances and broken-down armor. But Free Riders are a better name, and I definitely agree that Al Muktar's Desert Dogs need to make some kind of appearance.

I don't want them to pop up as Araby stand-ins either. I just think it'd be cool if one or two Arabyan units were reimagined as mercenary units for Dogs of War.

For "Heavy Cavalry", I think either "Hedge Knights" or "Free Lancers" would work depending on if the unit is armed with lances or other weapons. Or hell, why not both?

Giveaway412 said:

They might not be much different (no models existed) but I always pictured the Hirelings being similar to Hedge Wizards, illegal back-alley magic users with tattered robes, mad eyes, hobo beards, etc. It's a look that I'd like to see to some degree. But I'd like to see the other models you mentioned as well.

ArneSo said:

I agree with Albion, Araby and Halflings getting the Fimir treatment for the DoW but Amazons should really be their own race.

There's not enough material to make them their own race. Best to just roll them up in DoW.

Giveaway412 said:

MythrilSoul said:

_Mad_D0c_ said:

Pls no GS and anything connected with Chaos should get the ability for hiring DoW and nothing of them should be recruitable for DoW.

Beorg Bearstruck should be Norscan LL.

Dont mix to many of existing units in the DoW. Rather want some new unit of this races for DoW (which could be recruited by their race with a special dilemma/settlement or so if you own DoW. For example Slayer pirates come with DoW DLC and if you own game 1 and the DLC you can recruit them for the dwarfs.

i mean, both the bearmen of oslo & roglund's armored orcs are in the DoW book and mercenaries only care that the gold flow not from were it comes, so i think giving GS & Chaos opportunity to use the Dow is fair game.

Good point on Beorg though, if norsca gets the WE treatment Beorg is the best candidate as he is not alighned with one of the 4 chaos & is famous for his raids around the coast.

some mercs like amazons & halflings that you only find in a specific place on the map should be recruitable by any race that holds said place in my opinion (but some races shouldnt have access to certain units, for example,GS cannot recruit halflings as they prefer to eat & use them as target pratice more than gobbos)

Honestly even if they were in the army book, I think it's unlikely we'll see Ruglud or any of the Chaos units in the Dogs of War. That army book is old lore and some of the material is outdated, the setting became more grimdark and it's unlikely that we'll see anything GS or Chaos related. Orcs became more hostile to non-green races and have no love of money, and while some Norscan Marauders might travel the world for pay, the overwhelming majority of Chaos units are completely devoted to their dark and terrible gods.

That book might be old lore, but when Warhammer got more grimdark, so did the Dogs of War. Units like Mengil Manhide's Manflayers, the Cursed Company, and Ruglud's Armored Orcs were added to the lineup much later, when WH did take that grimdark turn in 6th edition, in order to keep the DoW in step with the direction the rest of WH was going. I think all those units should be fair game.

Captain_Rex#1635

Ol_Nessie said:

Giveaway412 said:

They could make an appearance here or there, though I wouldn't want to see entire Dogs of War factions down in Araby standing in for Araby factions. I don't think you can pass off Tilean Pikes and Crossbowmen as Arabyan troops, as I think the original poster was suggesting.

I do agree that unit names like "Light Cavalry" and "Heavy Cavalry" need to be changed. I always went with "Broken Lances" for Light Cavalry, imagining a whole group of Estalian Don Quixotes knockoffs with rusted lances and broken-down armor. But Free Riders are a better name, and I definitely agree that Al Muktar's Desert Dogs need to make some kind of appearance.

I don't want them to pop up as Araby stand-ins either. I just think it'd be cool if one or two Arabyan units were reimagined as mercenary units for Dogs of War.

For "Heavy Cavalry", I think either "Hedge Knights" or "Free Lancers" would work depending on if the unit is armed with lances or other weapons. Or hell, why not both?

Giveaway412 said:

They might not be much different (no models existed) but I always pictured the Hirelings being similar to Hedge Wizards, illegal back-alley magic users with tattered robes, mad eyes, hobo beards, etc. It's a look that I'd like to see to some degree. But I'd like to see the other models you mentioned as well.

ArneSo said:

I agree with Albion, Araby and Halflings getting the Fimir treatment for the DoW but Amazons should really be their own race.

There's not enough material to make them their own race. Best to just roll them up in DoW.

Giveaway412 said:

MythrilSoul said:

_Mad_D0c_ said:

Pls no GS and anything connected with Chaos should get the ability for hiring DoW and nothing of them should be recruitable for DoW.

Beorg Bearstruck should be Norscan LL.

Dont mix to many of existing units in the DoW. Rather want some new unit of this races for DoW (which could be recruited by their race with a special dilemma/settlement or so if you own DoW. For example Slayer pirates come with DoW DLC and if you own game 1 and the DLC you can recruit them for the dwarfs.

i mean, both the bearmen of oslo & roglund's armored orcs are in the DoW book and mercenaries only care that the gold flow not from were it comes, so i think giving GS & Chaos opportunity to use the Dow is fair game.

Good point on Beorg though, if norsca gets the WE treatment Beorg is the best candidate as he is not alighned with one of the 4 chaos & is famous for his raids around the coast.

some mercs like amazons & halflings that you only find in a specific place on the map should be recruitable by any race that holds said place in my opinion (but some races shouldnt have access to certain units, for example,GS cannot recruit halflings as they prefer to eat & use them as target pratice more than gobbos)

Honestly even if they were in the army book, I think it's unlikely we'll see Ruglud or any of the Chaos units in the Dogs of War. That army book is old lore and some of the material is outdated, the setting became more grimdark and it's unlikely that we'll see anything GS or Chaos related. Orcs became more hostile to non-green races and have no love of money, and while some Norscan Marauders might travel the world for pay, the overwhelming majority of Chaos units are completely devoted to their dark and terrible gods.

That book might be old lore, but when Warhammer got more grimdark, so did the Dogs of War. Units like Mengil Manhide's Manflayers, the Cursed Company, and Ruglud's Armored Orcs were added to the lineup much later, when WH did take that grimdark turn in 6th edition, in order to keep the DoW in step with the direction the rest of WH was going. I think all those units should be fair game.

Then you should check out this thread buddy:
https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/270396/amazons-official-army-list-and-more/p1

Amazons clearly have more than enough content to be their own race. Just take a look it’s quite interesting. I was in the same boat as you until I read this thread and realised how much cool stuff they actually have.

#324448

ArneSo said:

Then you should check out this thread buddy:
https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/270396/amazons-official-army-list-and-more/p1

Amazons clearly have more than enough content to be their own race. Just take a look it’s quite interesting. I was in the same boat as you until I read this thread and realised how much cool stuff they actually have.

I appreciate the effort that the OP went to but honestly that thread doesn't have me convinced. The roster seems to be entirely composed of the slightest variants of tribal jungle women with swords/spears/bows and the occasional large jungle creature thrown in, with many units not having a model and/or artwork taken from a non-Warhammer source. It could happen but it'd have a roster more bare than Norsca and I don't think it'd be a very popular move. I respect your right to your opinion but I'd hardly say they "clearly have more than enough content".

@Ol_Nessie Thanks for the pictures, but when I said I "would like to see those models" I meant I wanted to see them in-game, I already knew what they looked like. Sorry for the misunderstanding!

Ol_Nessie#9894

Giveaway412 said:

ArneSo said:

Then you should check out this thread buddy:
https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/270396/amazons-official-army-list-and-more/p1

Amazons clearly have more than enough content to be their own race. Just take a look it’s quite interesting. I was in the same boat as you until I read this thread and realised how much cool stuff they actually have.

I appreciate the effort that the OP went to but honestly that thread doesn't have me convinced. The roster seems to be entirely composed of the slightest variants of tribal jungle women with swords/spears/bows and the occasional large jungle creature thrown in, with many units not having a model and/or artwork taken from a non-Warhammer source. It could happen but it'd have a roster more bare than Norsca and I don't think it'd be a very popular move. I respect your right to your opinion but I'd hardly say they "clearly have more than enough content".

@Ol_Nessie Thanks for the pictures, but when I said I "would like to see those models" I meant I wanted to see them in-game, I already knew what they looked like. Sorry for the misunderstanding!

Lmao, my bad! Though I guess if someone reading this thread is unfamiliar with those things they at least have a reference now.

And yea, I agree on the general reaction to that list. I'm familiar with SJ's other threads like this and while I commend the effort, my reaction is almost always the same. It's just getting way too into the weeds and splitting too many hairs for anything really convincing. A lot of the sources are a bit iffy as well, with some of those publications being more like showcases for fan created or homebrew material.