Slaughterbrute and Vortex Beast as Daemons

#324448

I absolutely love these guys. They've got great models, great appearances, functioned well in Tabletop, and seem perfectly representative of the hideous darkness of Chaos creatures. However, I can't help but feel they'd be better suited as units for the Daemons of Chaos rather than the Warriors of Chaos. The Warriors have a ton of single-entity monster units already (Manticores, Chaos Giants, Shaggoths) and will likely get more, i.e. Chimeras, Chaos Warshrines, etc. but the Daemons don't really have any. The Greater Daemons will be huge and monstrous, but as army commanders they'll take a decidedly different role from a big, smashy monster, leaving them just with the (rather ugly) Soul Grinder.

It would be relatively easy to retcon these things from being chaos units to bestial Daemons. Despite the claim that these monsters are unaligned, it's blatantly obvious the Slaughterbrute is meant to represent Khorne, and the Mutalith Vortex Beast similarly invokes Tzeentch. If there were two more large monsters representing Nurgle and Slaanesh respectively, the four of them would be perfectly suited for as Daemonic beasts for the DoC, representing their divided nature.

Crossil#2134

No.

Mad_D0c_#1516

True, especially when you lok at khornes fleshhounds in the DoC.

Giveaway412 said:

Despite the claim that these monsters are unaligned, it's blatantly obvious the Slaughterbrute is meant to represent Khorne, and the Mutalith Vortex Beast similarly invokes Tzeentch. If there were two more large monsters representing Nurgle and Slaanesh respectively, the four of them would be perfectly suited for as Daemonic beasts for the DoC, representing their divided nature.

The great spined chaos beast could get a more rotting look with maggotholes and fits Nurgle very well.

In this case Fiends of Slaanesh would be the dark princes equivalent.

MrDragon#2461

I've always found these confusing as not being in the Daemon roster and yes, Warriors have enough SEMs.
These should be daemons in the daemon armies.

Fossoway

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think those are daemons at all. They're mutants, just like Chaos Spawns but even more messed up. I don't see how they fit in a DoC roster, they should be part of WoC, as they currently are.

Crossil#2134

MrDragon said:

I've always found these confusing as not being in the Daemon roster and yes, Warriors have enough SEMs.
These should be daemons in the daemon armies.

And DoC will have their own SEM in Greater Daemons. I don't see how the fact that they will be lord means they can't be units as well when we have Treemen fulfilling both roles as well. Especially when we did have Exalted versions of greater daemons that served as units rather than lords.

These aren't Daemons.

#324448

Fossoway said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think those are daemons at all. They're mutants, just like Chaos Spawns but even more messed up. I don't see how they fit in a DoC roster, they should be part of WoC, as they currently are.

The lore does justify their inclusion in the WoC roster by saying they're mutants, but they're quite Daemon-like in appearance. The Mutalith Vortex Beast looks like it could be the final stage of evolution for a Horror of Tzeentch, and the Slaughterbrute would look not even slightly out of place among an army of Bloodletters.

Goatforce#6625

They aren't Daemons, they're mutated creatures, they belong in the WoC roster.

#324448

Crossil said:

MrDragon said:

I've always found these confusing as not being in the Daemon roster and yes, Warriors have enough SEMs.
These should be daemons in the daemon armies.

And DoC will have their own SEM in Greater Daemons. I don't see how the fact that they will be lord means they can't be units as well when we have Treemen fulfilling both roles as well. Especially when we did have Exalted versions of greater daemons that served as units rather than lords.

Entirely possible, and another avenue I considered. Though I'd say it'd make considerably more sense to have the "Exalted" Greater Daemons as lords, with the regular ones serving as elite SEM units.

Crossil#2134

Giveaway412 said:

Fossoway said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think those are daemons at all. They're mutants, just like Chaos Spawns but even more messed up. I don't see how they fit in a DoC roster, they should be part of WoC, as they currently are.

The lore does justify their inclusion in the WoC roster by saying they're mutants, but they're quite Daemon-like in appearance. The Mutalith Vortex Beast looks like it could be the final stage of evolution for a Horror of Tzeentch, and the Slaughterbrute would look not even slightly out of place among an army of Bloodletters.

But that's because they do have mutations reminiscent of a certain god but that applies to all the followers of each individual god. Just because they fit together doesn't really say anything about whether they're Daemons or not.

If you did Monogods then yeah, I could see these two in the hands of Khorne and Tzeentch Monogod forces, but in pure WoC/DoC style distinction they aren't Daemons, which is pretty decisive.

SerPus#7395

Nonsense.

#324448

Crossil said:

Giveaway412 said:

Fossoway said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think those are daemons at all. They're mutants, just like Chaos Spawns but even more messed up. I don't see how they fit in a DoC roster, they should be part of WoC, as they currently are.

The lore does justify their inclusion in the WoC roster by saying they're mutants, but they're quite Daemon-like in appearance. The Mutalith Vortex Beast looks like it could be the final stage of evolution for a Horror of Tzeentch, and the Slaughterbrute would look not even slightly out of place among an army of Bloodletters.

But that's because they do have mutations reminiscent of a certain god but that applies to all the followers of each individual god. Just because they fit together doesn't really say anything about whether they're Daemons or not.

If you did Monogods then yeah, I could see these two in the hands of Khorne and Tzeentch Monogod forces, but in pure WoC/DoC style distinction they aren't Daemons, which is pretty decisive.

They aren't, but the line between "mutant creature with unknown origins emerging from the Chaos Wastes" and "Daemon" can be pretty thin. They're Daemon-like in visage and aesthetic, and it would not be much of a retcon to say that they're bestial Daemons of Khorne and Tzeentch, respectively.

Crossil#2134

Giveaway412 said:

Crossil said:

Giveaway412 said:

Fossoway said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think those are daemons at all. They're mutants, just like Chaos Spawns but even more messed up. I don't see how they fit in a DoC roster, they should be part of WoC, as they currently are.

The lore does justify their inclusion in the WoC roster by saying they're mutants, but they're quite Daemon-like in appearance. The Mutalith Vortex Beast looks like it could be the final stage of evolution for a Horror of Tzeentch, and the Slaughterbrute would look not even slightly out of place among an army of Bloodletters.

But that's because they do have mutations reminiscent of a certain god but that applies to all the followers of each individual god. Just because they fit together doesn't really say anything about whether they're Daemons or not.

If you did Monogods then yeah, I could see these two in the hands of Khorne and Tzeentch Monogod forces, but in pure WoC/DoC style distinction they aren't Daemons, which is pretty decisive.

They aren't, but the line between "mutant creature with unknown origins emerging from the Chaos Wastes" and "Daemon" can be pretty thin. They're Daemon-like in visage and aesthetic, and it would not be much of a retcon to say that they're bestial Daemons of Khorne and Tzeentch, respectively.

But it is a retcon and since GW has kept them as actual mutant beasts in Fantasy, 40k and AoS I think it's pretty decisively shown what they are.

And the distinction between mutant and daemon is not thin.

#324448

Crossil said:

Giveaway412 said:

Crossil said:

Giveaway412 said:

Fossoway said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think those are daemons at all. They're mutants, just like Chaos Spawns but even more messed up. I don't see how they fit in a DoC roster, they should be part of WoC, as they currently are.

The lore does justify their inclusion in the WoC roster by saying they're mutants, but they're quite Daemon-like in appearance. The Mutalith Vortex Beast looks like it could be the final stage of evolution for a Horror of Tzeentch, and the Slaughterbrute would look not even slightly out of place among an army of Bloodletters.

But that's because they do have mutations reminiscent of a certain god but that applies to all the followers of each individual god. Just because they fit together doesn't really say anything about whether they're Daemons or not.

If you did Monogods then yeah, I could see these two in the hands of Khorne and Tzeentch Monogod forces, but in pure WoC/DoC style distinction they aren't Daemons, which is pretty decisive.

They aren't, but the line between "mutant creature with unknown origins emerging from the Chaos Wastes" and "Daemon" can be pretty thin. They're Daemon-like in visage and aesthetic, and it would not be much of a retcon to say that they're bestial Daemons of Khorne and Tzeentch, respectively.

But it is a retcon and since GW has kept them as actual mutant beasts in Fantasy, 40k and AoS I think it's pretty decisively shown what they are.

And the distinction between mutant and daemon is not thin.

You could definitely keep them as mutant beasts. However, the roster for the Warriors of Chaos is large, and the roster for the Daemons is relatively small in comparison.

The distinction isn't thin when you compare a mortal mutating into a Chaos creature, i.e. a Chaos Spawn, those are quite different from Daemons. However, all we know about these two creatures is that they roam the far north of the Chaos Wastes, where the winds of magic is strong, where the divide between he mortal plane and the Realm of Chaos is blurry at best. It's not dissimilar to a Daemon.

Crossil#2134

Giveaway412 said:

Crossil said:

Giveaway412 said:

Crossil said:

Giveaway412 said:

Fossoway said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think those are daemons at all. They're mutants, just like Chaos Spawns but even more messed up. I don't see how they fit in a DoC roster, they should be part of WoC, as they currently are.

The lore does justify their inclusion in the WoC roster by saying they're mutants, but they're quite Daemon-like in appearance. The Mutalith Vortex Beast looks like it could be the final stage of evolution for a Horror of Tzeentch, and the Slaughterbrute would look not even slightly out of place among an army of Bloodletters.

But that's because they do have mutations reminiscent of a certain god but that applies to all the followers of each individual god. Just because they fit together doesn't really say anything about whether they're Daemons or not.

If you did Monogods then yeah, I could see these two in the hands of Khorne and Tzeentch Monogod forces, but in pure WoC/DoC style distinction they aren't Daemons, which is pretty decisive.

They aren't, but the line between "mutant creature with unknown origins emerging from the Chaos Wastes" and "Daemon" can be pretty thin. They're Daemon-like in visage and aesthetic, and it would not be much of a retcon to say that they're bestial Daemons of Khorne and Tzeentch, respectively.

But it is a retcon and since GW has kept them as actual mutant beasts in Fantasy, 40k and AoS I think it's pretty decisively shown what they are.

And the distinction between mutant and daemon is not thin.

You could definitely keep them as mutant beasts. However, the roster for the Warriors of Chaos is large, and the roster for the Daemons is relatively small in comparison.

The distinction isn't thin when you compare a mortal mutating into a Chaos creature, i.e. a Chaos Spawn, those are quite different from Daemons. However, all we know about these two creatures is that they roam the far north of the Chaos Wastes, where the winds of magic is strong, where the divide between he mortal plane and the Realm of Chaos is blurry at best. It's not dissimilar to a Daemon.

I actually think the DoC roster is quite extensive and complex, actually. The armybook is not the only thing they can get.

Yeah, but WoC also mostly inhabit that very same north, where real space and the Realm of Chaos mix. It doesn't disqualify them from being human. What constitutes a Daemon is a very straightforward definition.

Mad_D0c_#1516

Goatforce said:

They aren't Daemons, they're mutated creatures, they belong in the WoC roster.

What are khorne fleshhounds? Demonic dogs?

MrDragon#2461

Speaking as somebody who played Hordes of Chaos in TT back in 6th edition.
When I look at these miniatures I see beings that belong in the Hordes of Chaos army.

GW however split that into Daemons and Warriors for some incredibly dumb reason. (Ok not dumb, but greedy reason)
If you look at these minies and then the rest of both rosters, these fit aesthetically in the Daemon roster far more, especially in specifically the Khorne and Tzeentch themes.

Compared to what the Warriors already have in-game for SEMs, these two cuties look out of place there just as much as they look out of place on TT.

#324448

I definitely can't blame anyone who doesn't want to see these as Daemon units. Changing the lore isn't something I suggest easily, I definitely prefer to keep things on the faithful side. However, CA has made minor changes before, like making it so Kroxigors aren't 100% dumb brutes, a change that I am fine with.

The question is, if these were units in the Daemons of Chaos roster, would they look out of place? I think they'd be entirely appropriate in that roster from a visual and functional standpoint.

MrDragon said:

Speaking as somebody who played Hordes of Chaos in TT back in 6th edition.
When I look at these miniatures I see beings that belong in the Hordes of Chaos army.

GW however split that into Daemons and Warriors for some incredibly dumb reason. (Ok not dumb, but greedy reason)
If you look at these minies and then the rest of both rosters, these fit aesthetically in the Daemon roster far more, especially in specifically the Khorne and Tzeentch themes.

Compared to what the Warriors already have in-game for SEMs, these two cuties look out of place there just as much as they look out of place on TT.

I agree that splitting up the Warriors and Daemons was ultimately a poor move. Personally, I hope that WoC armies will be able to recruit some Daemon units in a limited capacity after their Game III overhaul. Eben if they're not part of the core roster anymore, Warriors still canonically summon Daemons in battle and so seeing Daemonic units aid the Warriors in battle would be very fitting.

Red_Dox#2328

Both things are still clearly mortal and have no daemonic rules. So, WoC they should stay. I would rather see Daemons getting rather existing stuff that would make more sense, like for example the Giant Chaos Spawn as depicted last in the Slaanesh topic
https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/273013/daemons-of-chaos-slaanesh
And Mythic had some more artworks for "undivided" (?) spawns which just could be used as some new created giant daemon monster actually for DoC




CA could also just do something compeltely new. Worked for giant crabs with Vampirates.
btw. the Spiderboss thing, I am 100% sure there was an actual artwork floating around for it. Anybody might still have that around? Could nto find it with usual searches. Interestingly did stumble over this Woodelves piece which might interest someone.

Funfact:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Uq_RyuJQcE

Sidenote:


------Red Dox

Pocman#6295

I... kinda agree.



I would say that while the artwork for the mutalith votex and the slaughterbrute look definetely like mutants, the TT models do look less fleshy and more demonic.

And is also true that there are a lot of missing SEMs that could be added to the WOC and Beastmen, while the Demons oC roster do lack some SEMs that aren't either lords or heroes.

Goatforce#6625

_Mad_D0c_ said:

Goatforce said:

They aren't Daemons, they're mutated creatures, they belong in the WoC roster.

What are khorne fleshhounds? Demonic dogs?

Yes, Fleshounds are explicitly stated to be Daemonic, Slaughterbrutes and MVBs are not. One is from the realm of chaos, the others are not, the difference is fairly cut and dry.

SerPus#7395

Giveaway412 said:

However, the roster for the Warriors of Chaos is large, and the roster for the Daemons is relatively small in comparison.

If I remember correctly, WoC army book has like 22 units and DoC army book has 20.

Timpeyo#7210

Nah I'm sure DoC could get them aswell but WoC Def need them more. WoC really need new interesting units for their army, especially some large chaotic beast and I'm sure DoC will get all the monstrous creatures they could ask for.

The big thing and most fun thing about mortal men controling theses creatures is that it takes a powerful spell caster too bring them forth and control them and that they have been summoned and bound too that person body and mind which I absolutely love.

I was playing around with the idea that Norsca could also get them and the Gorebeast being a new playable LL having a slaughter brute with a wizard his enslaved.

Whatever happens tho I'm hoping when WoC are updated and added too they Def get these guys as a centre piece

Surge_2#1464

No.

Those are WoC units.

Daemons have their own book.

#324448

SerPus said:

Giveaway412 said:

However, the roster for the Warriors of Chaos is large, and the roster for the Daemons is relatively small in comparison.

If I remember correctly, WoC army book has like 22 units and DoC army book has 20.

This is true, but campaign supplements such as Storm of Chaos, Tamurkhan: Throne of Chaos, and the End Times added a lot of units that would most likely belong to the Warriors of Chaos if they were added- and I think it's likely that some of them will.

SerPus#7395

Giveaway412 said:

This is true, but campaign supplements such as Storm of Chaos, Tamurkhan: Throne of Chaos, and the End Times added a lot of units that would most likely belong to the Warriors of Chaos if they were added- and I think it's likely that some of them will.

Both WoC and DoC received additional units from supplements.

MrDragon#2461

SerPus said:

Giveaway412 said:

However, the roster for the Warriors of Chaos is large, and the roster for the Daemons is relatively small in comparison.

If I remember correctly, WoC army book has like 22 units and DoC army book has 20.

The problem however with doing a straight numerical comparison here is the structure of those rosters.
The Daemon roster is really strange in composition because of how it's segmented into 5 blocks, 1 per god and 1 undivided and those rosters were awkwardly segmented off from the original Hordes of Chaos list without much to round out the fact that the Daemons were designed to be potentially run as 5 different lists when they still had mortals for the rank and file. (1 per god and 1 undivided)

Now regardless of the monogod lists going in, there's going to be some translation problems CA will need to overcome.
One of which is having no SEMs that aren't characters besides the awkward inclusion of the 40K Forgefiend Sorry, Soulgrinder. (which imho should have never come to fantasy in the first place)

Surge_2#1464

They could easily address this with Daemon Princes being larger than their TT implementation?

MrDragon#2461

Oh and correction: Looking at the 8th edition book right now.
They have 17 non-character units.

And I overlooked the Beast of Nurgle. So they do have 1 other SEM that's not a character besides the Soulgrinder.

MrDragon#2461

Surge_2 said:

They could easily address this with Daemon Princes being larger than their TT implementation?

Princes are characters.

Correction correction: There are 20 though then you do count both variations of Slaanesh Chariot and you include Nurglings which CA would likely ignore as it's a swarm unit.

saweendra#3399

aren't these guys from woC army book? if so they should stay at their home