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Well, Chaos spawn are in the WOC roster and the Vortex Beast is meant to be a group of Chaos Spawn that have merged together due to the whims of Tzeentch. So that should be in the WOC roster imo.
They are not Daemons though, they are mutated beasts.
"A Mutalith Vortex Beast is an utter abomination of nature. It is a terrifying fusion of monster and magic, a creature mutated beyond all reason by the powers of Chaos."
They are not dependent on the Winds of Magic either.
You can compare them to Chaos Spawns and they are bound to Champions of Chaos, thus directly linked lorewise to the Warriors of Chaos, not the Daemons of Chaos.
Eh just leave em to WoC its fine. I'm hoping we get Maggoths and some sort of Slaaneshi SEM as well so you can have one nice themed SEM for a WoC stack devoted to a particular god.
Oh and correction: Looking at the 8th edition book right now. They have 17 non-character units.
And I overlooked the Beast of Nurgle. So they do have 1 other SEM that's not a character besides the Soulgrinder.
Are Beasts of Nurgle SEM units? I always assumed they were a Monstrous Warhound unit, coming in groups of several.
They could be taken in units of 1+. People usually used them alone because their main value was their extreme tankiness, allowing them to distract much more valuable targets for a long time. They should probably have a bigger unit size than that in total war though.
But it isn't? It works just like any other roster.
Yet mechanical rhinos are totally fine?
Not quite, because how it was extracted from the Hordes of Chaos roster to sell more minies despite originally being designed looooong before that as part of the combined Chaos roster. It imho was one of the great mistakes after 6th edition.
As for the Juggernauts of Khorne, they still look and feel like fantasy creatures to me instead of a scrapped boss design from the recent Doom games. They look like armour plated demon rhinos. They don't look like a rusty spider mech with exposed pistons and tubes grafted to a daemon carcass.
Not quite, because how it was extracted from the Hordes of Chaos roster to sell more minies despite originally being designed looooong before that as part of the combined Chaos roster.
That's irrelevant for their 8th edition roster that doesn't apply any restrictions on which parts of it you can use. So no, it isn't separated in 5 parts.
They don't look like a rusty spider mech with exposed pistons and tubes grafted to a daemon carcass.
Instead they look like like fully mechanical rhinos with exposed pistons and tubes. Because that's what they are.
The Juggernauts are fine. While mechanical, they're smooth and veiny and have a "living metal" appearance to them. They don't totally clash with the aesthetic of Warhammer Fantasy.
The Soul Grinder, on the other hand, is very obviously just a daemon grafted to the lower half of a Defiler. There's no cohesion to it whatsoever, certainly not in relation to the rest of the Fantasy world or the Daemon roster. Its legs are blatantly of Heretek design, and heavily resembles the aesthetic of Chaos Space Marine war machines- which, in turn, are just Space Marine warmachines with spikes and other **** grafted on them. It can hardly be compared to the Juggernaut.
Remember: there's no reason to get angry on the forums. Be polite and respectful towards other people's opinions, even if you disagree.
They don't look like a rusty spider mech with exposed pistons and tubes grafted to a daemon carcass.
Instead they look like like fully mechanical rhinos with exposed pistons and tubes. Because that's what they are.
The Juggernauts are fine. While mechanical, they're smooth and veiny and have a "living metal" appearance to them. They don't totally clash with the aesthetic of Warhammer Fantasy.
The Soul Grinder, on the other hand, is very obviously just a daemon grafted to the lower half of a Defiler. There's no cohesion to it whatsoever, certainly not in relation to the rest of the Fantasy world or the Daemon roster. Its legs are blatantly of Heretek design, and heavily resembles the aesthetic of Chaos Space Marine war machines- which, in turn, are just Space Marine warmachines with spikes and other **** grafted on them. It can hardly be compared to the Juggernaut.
It can also be compared to the Skull Cannon which is literally a bike.
And the reason why there are bikes for daemons is because there are military bikes in 40k.
In which case you have a mechanical aesthetic to Khorne, aside from the simple barbarian idea. That's why when looking at the Soul Grinder, I actually think it's pretty fitting for a Khornate unit compared to everyone else.
Yeah, it's pretty obviously a Defiler base because GW has a tendency to prioritise reusable base parts and DoC are kept the same across all of Warhammer IPs model wise. That doesn't mean it can't be better adapted.
Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
They don't look like a rusty spider mech with exposed pistons and tubes grafted to a daemon carcass.
Instead they look like like fully mechanical rhinos with exposed pistons and tubes. Because that's what they are.
The Juggernauts are fine. While mechanical, they're smooth and veiny and have a "living metal" appearance to them. They don't totally clash with the aesthetic of Warhammer Fantasy.
The Soul Grinder, on the other hand, is very obviously just a daemon grafted to the lower half of a Defiler. There's no cohesion to it whatsoever, certainly not in relation to the rest of the Fantasy world or the Daemon roster. Its legs are blatantly of Heretek design, and heavily resembles the aesthetic of Chaos Space Marine war machines- which, in turn, are just Space Marine warmachines with spikes and other **** grafted on them. It can hardly be compared to the Juggernaut.
Imho, it would be very easy to adapt both the juggernauts and soulgrinders to make them less mechanical and a bit more fantastical. They are both cool models.
They aren't Daemons, they're mutated creatures, they belong in the WoC roster.
What are khorne fleshhounds? Demonic dogs?
Yeah, they're literally daemons in the shape of dogs.
As for these being "mutants" rather than Daemons, I suspect that was more because GW was heavily favouring the Warriors rosters during 8th Edition, rather than the Daemons of Chaos (Compare their roster sizes in 8th Edition, to see what I mean). Realistically... They're Daemons.
Someone asking for mechanical constructs not really fit for WHFB? ^^
And for the record
DoC 3 special character Lords 5 generic Lord choices 6 special character Heroes 4 generic Hero choices 4 Core units 10 Special choices 6 Rare Choices
WoC 6 special character Lords 3 generic Lord choices 4 special character heroes 2 generic Hero choices 6 Core choices 9 Special choices 7 Rare choices
So without special chars its 29 DoC, 27 WoC. And yes, thats just 8th edition armybooks. Not adding stuff from Tamurkhan (where the mammoth for example went to Norsca).
And as mentioned in my Slaanesh topic https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/273013/daemons-of-chaos-slaanesh we could add +Serpents as a choice +Pleasure Seekers for monstrous cav +Chaos Spawns +Giant Chaos Spawn +Spined Beast +at least one extra tier of Daemonettes and we are still undecisive on the "Greater Daemon" front. Will it only be a Lord choice or will a "feral" one be a generic unit option for doomstacking? Not even considering the absurd Exalted Ones or the possible various steps in between that GW only brought for the Bloodthirster. I could add some other non-Slaanesh stuff to that list but hey, three god topics to go until 2021
Slaughterbrutes and Mutalith Vortex Beasts are for WoC, if we want to include a couple more big monsters for Daemons of Chaos, there's the six edition Bloodbeast of Khorne and Firewyrm of Tzeentch to look at. Their contemporaries, the Beast of Nurgle and Fiend of Slaanesh were updated for 7th and 8th DoC, while they were left behind.
DoC 3 special character Lords 5 generic Lord choices 6 special character Heroes 4 generic Hero choices 4 Core units 10 Special choices 6 Rare Choices
I had thought the Masque was a lord, but as you mentioned only 3 character lords I had to go check, and apparently she is not. Well, I am expecting CA will probably raise her to lord position anyway in the end.
On the topic at hand however, as someone not well-versed in the lore of Chaos Daemons, I had mostly assumed those two beasts were demons of sort. So CA could have easily fooled someone like me thinking them as daemons and including them in DoC roster. But now I think it might be best to keep them at where they were originally placed.
Beasts of Nurgle and especially Fiends, are a different thing all together?
Regardless, you are right that the lines are distinct between WoC and Daemons on the Brute and Mutalith.
The Daemon line, properly done, needs no big mosters, its lead by them.
All four started out as specialized chaos spawn back when Daemons and Warriors were still in one roster. The Khorne and Tzeentch ones were dropped and the Nurgle and Slaanesh ones were developed more and promoted to actual daemons for the armybook split.
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All four started out as specialized chaos spawn back when Daemons and Warriors were still in one roster. The Khorne and Tzeentch ones were dropped and the Nurgle and Slaanesh ones were developed more and promoted to actual daemons for the armybook split.
I must be misremembering. I could have sworn going WAY back, Realms of Chaos, that Fiends were always these 4 legged, 2 bodied fusion things, distinct from Spawn, but 6th had it as you say.
All four started out as specialized chaos spawn back when Daemons and Warriors were still in one roster. The Khorne and Tzeentch ones were dropped and the Nurgle and Slaanesh ones were developed more and promoted to actual daemons for the armybook split.
I must be misremembering. I could have sworn going WAY back, Realms of Chaos, that Fiends were always these 4 legged, 2 bodied fusion things, distinct from Spawn, but 6th had it as you say.
No, you remember right. I could point again to my Slaanesh topic with the Fiends subsectiion. And Beasts of Nurgle also existed waaaaay back then.
They don't look like a rusty spider mech with exposed pistons and tubes grafted to a daemon carcass.
Instead they look like like fully mechanical rhinos with exposed pistons and tubes. Because that's what they are.
The Juggernauts are fine. While mechanical, they're smooth and veiny and have a "living metal" appearance to them. They don't totally clash with the aesthetic of Warhammer Fantasy.
The Soul Grinder, on the other hand, is very obviously just a daemon grafted to the lower half of a Defiler. There's no cohesion to it whatsoever, certainly not in relation to the rest of the Fantasy world or the Daemon roster. Its legs are blatantly of Heretek design, and heavily resembles the aesthetic of Chaos Space Marine war machines- which, in turn, are just Space Marine warmachines with spikes and other **** grafted on them. It can hardly be compared to the Juggernaut.
Imho, it would be very easy to adapt both the juggernauts and soulgrinders to make them less mechanical and a bit more fantastical. They are both cool models.
I'd be totally down with that, toning down their sci-fi with more curved plating and exposed flesh or soulstuff in there instead of pistons and tubes.
I feel there's a distinct difference between mechanical/construct and sci-fi-looking. I'm fine with steamtanks, organ-guns, gyrocopters etc but the soulgrinder looks like it belongs in 40K as is.
They don't look like a rusty spider mech with exposed pistons and tubes grafted to a daemon carcass.
Instead they look like like fully mechanical rhinos with exposed pistons and tubes. Because that's what they are.
The Juggernauts are fine. While mechanical, they're smooth and veiny and have a "living metal" appearance to them. They don't totally clash with the aesthetic of Warhammer Fantasy.
The Soul Grinder, on the other hand, is very obviously just a daemon grafted to the lower half of a Defiler. There's no cohesion to it whatsoever, certainly not in relation to the rest of the Fantasy world or the Daemon roster. Its legs are blatantly of Heretek design, and heavily resembles the aesthetic of Chaos Space Marine war machines- which, in turn, are just Space Marine warmachines with spikes and other **** grafted on them. It can hardly be compared to the Juggernaut.
Imho, it would be very easy to adapt both the juggernauts and soulgrinders to make them less mechanical and a bit more fantastical. They are both cool models.
I'd be totally down with that, toning down their sci-fi with more curved plating and exposed flesh or soulstuff in there instead of pistons and tubes.
I feel there's a distinct difference between mechanical/construct and sci-fi-looking. I'm fine with steamtanks, organ-guns, gyrocopters etc but the soulgrinder looks like it belongs in 40K as is.
The Soulgrinder is literally a Demon gluing a defiler (40K war machine) together. It's genuinely the worst Fantasy unit by far.
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1 · Disagree AgreeLet Slip the Dogs of War - A fanmade Campaign Pack concept
https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/303462/let-loose-the-dogs-of-war-a-fanmade-campaign-pack-concept
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0 · Disagree Agree"A Mutalith Vortex Beast is an utter abomination of nature. It is a terrifying fusion of monster and magic, a creature mutated beyond all reason by the powers of Chaos."
They are not dependent on the Winds of Magic either.
You can compare them to Chaos Spawns and they are bound to Champions of Chaos, thus directly linked lorewise to the Warriors of Chaos, not the Daemons of Chaos.
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0 · Disagree AgreeI mean Greater Daemons better be beastly.
You then have Fast, Heavy, and Flying Cav.
You have Light, Shooting (Canon and Magic), Chariots.
You have Soulgrinders and Daemon Princes.
You have 4 types of Troops.
You have elites, and flankers.
Daemons have it all. They don't need changes.
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0 · Disagree AgreeIt imho was one of the great mistakes after 6th edition.
As for the Juggernauts of Khorne, they still look and feel like fantasy creatures to me instead of a scrapped boss design from the recent Doom games.
They look like armour plated demon rhinos.
They don't look like a rusty spider mech with exposed pistons and tubes grafted to a daemon carcass.
But that's just a difference of opinion I guess.
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0 · Disagree AgreeThe Soul Grinder, on the other hand, is very obviously just a daemon grafted to the lower half of a Defiler.
There's no cohesion to it whatsoever, certainly not in relation to the rest of the Fantasy world or the Daemon roster. Its legs are blatantly of Heretek design, and heavily resembles the aesthetic of Chaos Space Marine war machines- which, in turn, are just Space Marine warmachines with spikes and other **** grafted on them. It can hardly be compared to the Juggernaut.
Let Slip the Dogs of War - A fanmade Campaign Pack concept
https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/303462/let-loose-the-dogs-of-war-a-fanmade-campaign-pack-concept
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4 · Disagree AgreeAnd the reason why there are bikes for daemons is because there are military bikes in 40k.
In which case you have a mechanical aesthetic to Khorne, aside from the simple barbarian idea. That's why when looking at the Soul Grinder, I actually think it's pretty fitting for a Khornate unit compared to everyone else.
Yeah, it's pretty obviously a Defiler base because GW has a tendency to prioritise reusable base parts and DoC are kept the same across all of Warhammer IPs model wise. That doesn't mean it can't be better adapted.
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0 · Disagree AgreeAs for these being "mutants" rather than Daemons, I suspect that was more because GW was heavily favouring the Warriors rosters during 8th Edition, rather than the Daemons of Chaos (Compare their roster sizes in 8th Edition, to see what I mean). Realistically... They're Daemons.
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4 · Disagree AgreeSomeone asking for mechanical constructs not really fit for WHFB? ^^
And for the record
DoC
3 special character Lords
5 generic Lord choices
6 special character Heroes
4 generic Hero choices
4 Core units
10 Special choices
6 Rare Choices
WoC
6 special character Lords
3 generic Lord choices
4 special character heroes
2 generic Hero choices
6 Core choices
9 Special choices
7 Rare choices
So without special chars its 29 DoC, 27 WoC.
And yes, thats just 8th edition armybooks. Not adding stuff from Tamurkhan (where the mammoth for example went to Norsca).
And as mentioned in my Slaanesh topic
https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/273013/daemons-of-chaos-slaanesh
we could add
+Serpents as a choice
+Pleasure Seekers for monstrous cav
+Chaos Spawns
+Giant Chaos Spawn
+Spined Beast
+at least one extra tier of Daemonettes
and we are still undecisive on the "Greater Daemon" front. Will it only be a Lord choice or will a "feral" one be a generic unit option for doomstacking? Not even considering the absurd Exalted Ones or the possible various steps in between that GW only brought for the Bloodthirster.
I could add some other non-Slaanesh stuff to that list but hey, three god topics to go until 2021
-------Red Dox
Missing units and other possible stuff (work in Progress)
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3 · Disagree AgreeGame 3 cannot get here soon enough. I need REAL Chaos. I need Warriors of Chaos done right. I need Daemons of Chaos.
We need. NEED. Chaos to be what it should be. The ultimate Big Bad of the setting.
CHAOS BOYS.
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0 · Disagree AgreeThorek Ironbrow, Alrik Ranulfsson, Grimm Burloksson, Kazador Thunderhorn, Byrrnoth Grundadrakk, Malakai Makaisson,Gotrek Gurnisson, Garagrim, Dragon slayer, Deamon slayer, Doomseekers, Brotherhood of Grimnir,Giant slayers, Thunderbarge, Shieldbearer mount, Master brewer, Goblin Hewer, Norse dwarf war mammoth, Tractator engine, Rune golem, Shard dragon,proper Anvil of Doom, Ulther's dragon company, Lond Drong's slayer pirates, Everguard, Karak Varn,Karag Agrilwutraz,Karaz Bryn, Karag Dum,Karak Vlag, Kraka Dorden, Kraka Ornsmotek, Kraka Ravnsvake, Karak Vrag, Karak Azorn, Karak Krakaten.All those missing things are grudges in the great book, is in your hand to settle them, CA. Khazukan kazakit-ha!
IT'S HOBGOBBO TIME!!!!!!!
#JusticeForKurgan
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0 · Disagree AgreeWell, I am expecting CA will probably raise her to lord position anyway in the end.
On the topic at hand however, as someone not well-versed in the lore of Chaos Daemons, I had mostly assumed those two beasts were demons of sort. So CA could have easily fooled someone like me thinking them as daemons and including them in DoC roster. But now I think it might be best to keep them at where they were originally placed.
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0 · Disagree AgreeBeasts of Nurgle and especially Fiends, are a different thing all together?
Regardless, you are right that the lines are distinct between WoC and Daemons on the Brute and Mutalith.
The Daemon line, properly done, needs no big mosters, its lead by them.
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2 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree Agree------Red Dox
Missing units and other possible stuff (work in Progress)
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3 · Disagree AgreeI cannot wait. I may book a day off work assuming my righteous legions of Khorne are implemented fully.
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0 · Disagree AgreeI feel there's a distinct difference between mechanical/construct and sci-fi-looking.
I'm fine with steamtanks, organ-guns, gyrocopters etc but the soulgrinder looks like it belongs in 40K as is.
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2 · Disagree AgreeThe current kit is so good. Its perfect.
The Soulgrinder? Yeah that I'm not a fan of, but please, my juggers are perfect.
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1 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree Agree