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  • RafSwi7#7492RafSwi7#7492 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,781

    RafSwi7 said:

    Goatforce said:

    RafSwi7 said:

    neodeinos said:

    neodeinos said:


    neodeinos said:

    sykall said:

    Today is the last day of troy being free, if I remember correctly.
    I expect news one or two weeks later to seperate the wh release more from the troy release.

    There's still the Blood DLC for Troy coming, IIRC they said it was their next release so probably blood DLC next week, WH news the week after.
    can you share the source please ?
    Well it's supposed to release in October, it was in the latest blog when they shared their plans for all their games.
    Source? I haven't seen that.

    I see a lot of free things that I don't care about because they aren't on Steam. I'm not even joking.
    a blood DLC and a unit/god FLC is a good thing for troy, but its hardly content for an entire month.
    i am willing to bet the WE DLc will drop at the middle of november
    I doubt CA cares much about Troy now. They've made their money. Now they'll just see if the DLC sells
    Why would they not care about it?

    It has the biggest owners base among all Total War titles. Even if only a small part of them buy paid DLC it still might sell way better than DLCs for other games.

    Don't underestimate the power of numbers behind Epic. When Civ VI went free on Epic, its monthly average number of players (not owners) increased by 477% and during that time the average number of players on Steam was 41k (so in the same month Civ VI could have on Epic on average even nearly 200k players).

    When you launch Epic Troy still shows up in the most popular titles so it seems that people over there still play the game.


    Individually perhaps, and that is a definite perhaps given the reason it is so widely owned is almost certainly that it was free so there is no guarantee of DLC success months after the honeymoon has ended, but the issue is how much longevity does Troy have? It is a Saga game, which are designed to be smaller and are generally more limited (though also experimental tryouts for mechanics) - the issue with this is that it doesn't have the lifespan of a full TW game and once people start having to regularly pay for new stuff it may well start to rapidly shed users and drop off in terms of profits. Compare this to a historical title which has years worth of steady income from DLC in it, or WH which is a project that could easily yield steady income from DLC for about a decade (from release of 1 to end of 3), and Troy is far less attractive.
    They will just make DLCs for the games for which these DLCs will sell well. This is simple truth.

    Number of DLCs does not depend on being main or Saga game, but on a chance of being profitable. CA is most likely aware what % of total owners/players is buying DLCs. It is also probable that this % of potential DLC buyers is similiar among all Total War titles. The bigger is ownerbase/playerbase, the bigger are potential profits from DLCs.

    This is why Thrones did not have DLCs - its sold poorly compared to other titles (estimates shows that it might have sold even 5-10 times less copies than other TW games). If Thrones sold better it would have receive DLCs.

    This is also why it was RomeII that has received DLCs from Sofia studio and not Attila even if the latter was a newer title. It is not that Attila was worse game but it did not sell as well as RomeII (different estimations shows that it might have sold only one third of RomeII numbers). If Attila sold better, it would have receive these DLCs in 2017-2018.

    It is all about numbers. If Warhammer sales were average it would have receive much less post launch content.

    Troy has the biggest ownerbase among all Total War titles and (based on stats about GTA and CIv VI numbers on Epic)
    it might also have the biggest playerbase among all Total War titles. To put its numbers into perspective:

    Troy was claimed in over 7.5 million copies in 24 hours and it means that (based on leak from 2018):
    - in one day it was claimed nearly six time more than the total number of Attila players after a 3 years.
    - in one day it was claimed at least two time more than the total number of RomeII players after 5 years.
    - in one day it was claimed nearly 30 times more that number of total Thrones players after two months.
    - in one day it was claimed nearly 8 times more than total number of Warhammer 2 players after a year.

    CA wont say "Oh, Troy was more successful than we have anticipated so in theory can sell a lot of DLC copies, but we will not do them because Troy is Saga title".

    As long as Troy has good numbers behind it, it will receive more DLCs, if the numbers are not good it won't. So far its numbers I think make these DLCs more probable.

    But it was free, try and make wh 3 free. it will be hold my beer moment, but i do agree troy will get let lot of dlc, but weather or not they sell without being free is still up in air,
    Of course W3 would do great on Epic. This is a main strategy to put games there - give them away for free (receive money from Epic), build massive playerbase, sell a lot of DLCs.

    I do expect more Total War titles on Epic in the future. From commercial standpoint it would be silly to not cover that market.

    Completed EMPIRE, ROMEII, ATTILA, THRONES OF BRITANNIA, WARHAMMER, THREE KINGDOMS, TROY and ROME REMASTERED campaigns:
    EMPIRE
    France, Poland-Lithuania, Spain.
    ROMEII
    GC: Ardiaei, Arevaci, Athens, Baktria, Carthage, Cimmeria, Egypt, Epirus, Iceni, Kush, Lusitani, Macedon, Masaesyli, Massagetae, Massalia, Nabatea, Nervii, Odrysian Kingdom, Parthia, Pergamon, Rome, Royal Scythia, Saba, Seleucid, Sparta, Suebi, Syracuse.
    CiG: Arverni, Rome, Suebi.
    HatG: Arevaci, Carthage, Rome, Syracuse.
    IA: Antony's Rome, Dacia, Egypt, Marcomanni, Octavian's Rome, Parthia, Pompey's Rome.
    WoS: Athenai, Boiotian League, Korinthos, Sparta.
    ED: Armenia, Caledonii, Gallic Rome, Marcomanni, Palmyra, Rome, Saxoni, The Sassanids.
    RotR: Rome, Samnites, Senones, Syracuse, Taras, Tarchuna.
    ATTILA
    GC: Alans, Anteans, Eastern Roman Empire, Franks, Geats, Himyar, Jutes, Ostrogoths, Saxons, Venedians.
    TLR: Roman Expedition, Visigothic Kingdom.
    AoC: Kingdom of Asturias, Kingdom of Charlemagne, Kingdom of the Danes, Kingdom of Mercia.
    THRONES OF BRITANNIA
    Dublin, Gwined, Northumbria, Mercia, Sudreyar, West Seaxe.
    WARHAMMER 1 & 2 & 3
    W1: Belegar Ironhammer, Durthu, Karl Franz, Louen Leoncoeur, The Fay Enchantress.
    W2 - ME: Alith Anar, Count Noctilus, Ikit Claw, Imrik, Kroq-Gar, Louen Leoncoeur, Morghur the Shadowgave, The Fay Enchantress, Vlad von Carstein, Wulfrik the Wanderer, Wurrzag da Great Green Prophet.
    W2 - V: Eltharion, Lokhir Fellheart, Markus Wulfhart, Repanse de Lyonesse, Settra the Imperishable, Sisters of Twilight.
    W3 - RoC: Kairos Fateweaver, Tzarina Katarin, Zhao Ming.
    THREE KINGDOMS
    MOH: Liu Chong, Liu Hong, Lu Zhi, Zhang Bao.
    ROTW: Dong Zhuo, Gongsun Zan, He Yi, Liu Bei, Ma Teng, Sun Jian, Yuan Shao.
    AWB: Cao Cao, King Mulu, Liu Biao, Lü Bu, Meng Huo, Sun Ce, Yan Baihu.
    FD: Cao Cao, Liu Bei, Liu Zhang, Sun Ce, Yuan Shao.
    EP: Sima Ai, Sima Yong, Sima Yue.
    TROY
    Achilles, Aeneas, Agamemnon, Ajax, Diomedes, Hector, Hippolyta, Memnon, Menelaus, Odysseus, Paris, Penthesilea, Rhesus, Sarpedon.
    ROME REMASTERED
    RTW: Carthage, Egypt, Greek Cities, Macedon, Scipii, Scythia.
    BI: Eastern Roman Empire, Romano-British, Sarmatians, Slavs.
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,566
    RafSwi7 said:

    RafSwi7 said:

    Goatforce said:

    RafSwi7 said:

    neodeinos said:

    neodeinos said:


    neodeinos said:

    sykall said:

    Today is the last day of troy being free, if I remember correctly.
    I expect news one or two weeks later to seperate the wh release more from the troy release.

    There's still the Blood DLC for Troy coming, IIRC they said it was their next release so probably blood DLC next week, WH news the week after.
    can you share the source please ?
    Well it's supposed to release in October, it was in the latest blog when they shared their plans for all their games.
    Source? I haven't seen that.

    I see a lot of free things that I don't care about because they aren't on Steam. I'm not even joking.
    a blood DLC and a unit/god FLC is a good thing for troy, but its hardly content for an entire month.
    i am willing to bet the WE DLc will drop at the middle of november
    I doubt CA cares much about Troy now. They've made their money. Now they'll just see if the DLC sells
    Why would they not care about it?

    It has the biggest owners base among all Total War titles. Even if only a small part of them buy paid DLC it still might sell way better than DLCs for other games.

    Don't underestimate the power of numbers behind Epic. When Civ VI went free on Epic, its monthly average number of players (not owners) increased by 477% and during that time the average number of players on Steam was 41k (so in the same month Civ VI could have on Epic on average even nearly 200k players).

    When you launch Epic Troy still shows up in the most popular titles so it seems that people over there still play the game.


    Individually perhaps, and that is a definite perhaps given the reason it is so widely owned is almost certainly that it was free so there is no guarantee of DLC success months after the honeymoon has ended, but the issue is how much longevity does Troy have? It is a Saga game, which are designed to be smaller and are generally more limited (though also experimental tryouts for mechanics) - the issue with this is that it doesn't have the lifespan of a full TW game and once people start having to regularly pay for new stuff it may well start to rapidly shed users and drop off in terms of profits. Compare this to a historical title which has years worth of steady income from DLC in it, or WH which is a project that could easily yield steady income from DLC for about a decade (from release of 1 to end of 3), and Troy is far less attractive.
    They will just make DLCs for the games for which these DLCs will sell well. This is simple truth.

    Number of DLCs does not depend on being main or Saga game, but on a chance of being profitable. CA is most likely aware what % of total owners/players is buying DLCs. It is also probable that this % of potential DLC buyers is similiar among all Total War titles. The bigger is ownerbase/playerbase, the bigger are potential profits from DLCs.

    This is why Thrones did not have DLCs - its sold poorly compared to other titles (estimates shows that it might have sold even 5-10 times less copies than other TW games). If Thrones sold better it would have receive DLCs.

    This is also why it was RomeII that has received DLCs from Sofia studio and not Attila even if the latter was a newer title. It is not that Attila was worse game but it did not sell as well as RomeII (different estimations shows that it might have sold only one third of RomeII numbers). If Attila sold better, it would have receive these DLCs in 2017-2018.

    It is all about numbers. If Warhammer sales were average it would have receive much less post launch content.

    Troy has the biggest ownerbase among all Total War titles and (based on stats about GTA and CIv VI numbers on Epic)
    it might also have the biggest playerbase among all Total War titles. To put its numbers into perspective:

    Troy was claimed in over 7.5 million copies in 24 hours and it means that (based on leak from 2018):
    - in one day it was claimed nearly six time more than the total number of Attila players after a 3 years.
    - in one day it was claimed at least two time more than the total number of RomeII players after 5 years.
    - in one day it was claimed nearly 30 times more that number of total Thrones players after two months.
    - in one day it was claimed nearly 8 times more than total number of Warhammer 2 players after a year.

    CA wont say "Oh, Troy was more successful than we have anticipated so in theory can sell a lot of DLC copies, but we will not do them because Troy is Saga title".

    As long as Troy has good numbers behind it, it will receive more DLCs, if the numbers are not good it won't. So far its numbers I think make these DLCs more probable.

    But it was free, try and make wh 3 free. it will be hold my beer moment, but i do agree troy will get let lot of dlc, but weather or not they sell without being free is still up in air,
    Of course W3 would do great on Epic. This is a main strategy to put games there - give them away for free (receive money from Epic), build massive playerbase, sell a lot of DLCs.

    I do expect more Total War titles on Epic in the future. From commercial standpoint it would be silly to not cover that market.
    as long as they offer it on Steam i will be fine. don't want games in epic TWW is combination game so to get best you need all three games plus dlc. and Epic has no mod support TWW has a very good mod community so yeah prefer it on Steam,

    So as long its not another exclusive **** i will be ok.

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • RafSwi7#7492RafSwi7#7492 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,781

    RafSwi7 said:

    RafSwi7 said:

    Goatforce said:

    RafSwi7 said:

    neodeinos said:

    neodeinos said:


    neodeinos said:

    sykall said:

    Today is the last day of troy being free, if I remember correctly.
    I expect news one or two weeks later to seperate the wh release more from the troy release.

    There's still the Blood DLC for Troy coming, IIRC they said it was their next release so probably blood DLC next week, WH news the week after.
    can you share the source please ?
    Well it's supposed to release in October, it was in the latest blog when they shared their plans for all their games.
    Source? I haven't seen that.

    I see a lot of free things that I don't care about because they aren't on Steam. I'm not even joking.
    a blood DLC and a unit/god FLC is a good thing for troy, but its hardly content for an entire month.
    i am willing to bet the WE DLc will drop at the middle of november
    I doubt CA cares much about Troy now. They've made their money. Now they'll just see if the DLC sells
    Why would they not care about it?

    It has the biggest owners base among all Total War titles. Even if only a small part of them buy paid DLC it still might sell way better than DLCs for other games.

    Don't underestimate the power of numbers behind Epic. When Civ VI went free on Epic, its monthly average number of players (not owners) increased by 477% and during that time the average number of players on Steam was 41k (so in the same month Civ VI could have on Epic on average even nearly 200k players).

    When you launch Epic Troy still shows up in the most popular titles so it seems that people over there still play the game.


    Individually perhaps, and that is a definite perhaps given the reason it is so widely owned is almost certainly that it was free so there is no guarantee of DLC success months after the honeymoon has ended, but the issue is how much longevity does Troy have? It is a Saga game, which are designed to be smaller and are generally more limited (though also experimental tryouts for mechanics) - the issue with this is that it doesn't have the lifespan of a full TW game and once people start having to regularly pay for new stuff it may well start to rapidly shed users and drop off in terms of profits. Compare this to a historical title which has years worth of steady income from DLC in it, or WH which is a project that could easily yield steady income from DLC for about a decade (from release of 1 to end of 3), and Troy is far less attractive.
    They will just make DLCs for the games for which these DLCs will sell well. This is simple truth.

    Number of DLCs does not depend on being main or Saga game, but on a chance of being profitable. CA is most likely aware what % of total owners/players is buying DLCs. It is also probable that this % of potential DLC buyers is similiar among all Total War titles. The bigger is ownerbase/playerbase, the bigger are potential profits from DLCs.

    This is why Thrones did not have DLCs - its sold poorly compared to other titles (estimates shows that it might have sold even 5-10 times less copies than other TW games). If Thrones sold better it would have receive DLCs.

    This is also why it was RomeII that has received DLCs from Sofia studio and not Attila even if the latter was a newer title. It is not that Attila was worse game but it did not sell as well as RomeII (different estimations shows that it might have sold only one third of RomeII numbers). If Attila sold better, it would have receive these DLCs in 2017-2018.

    It is all about numbers. If Warhammer sales were average it would have receive much less post launch content.

    Troy has the biggest ownerbase among all Total War titles and (based on stats about GTA and CIv VI numbers on Epic)
    it might also have the biggest playerbase among all Total War titles. To put its numbers into perspective:

    Troy was claimed in over 7.5 million copies in 24 hours and it means that (based on leak from 2018):
    - in one day it was claimed nearly six time more than the total number of Attila players after a 3 years.
    - in one day it was claimed at least two time more than the total number of RomeII players after 5 years.
    - in one day it was claimed nearly 30 times more that number of total Thrones players after two months.
    - in one day it was claimed nearly 8 times more than total number of Warhammer 2 players after a year.

    CA wont say "Oh, Troy was more successful than we have anticipated so in theory can sell a lot of DLC copies, but we will not do them because Troy is Saga title".

    As long as Troy has good numbers behind it, it will receive more DLCs, if the numbers are not good it won't. So far its numbers I think make these DLCs more probable.

    But it was free, try and make wh 3 free. it will be hold my beer moment, but i do agree troy will get let lot of dlc, but weather or not they sell without being free is still up in air,
    Of course W3 would do great on Epic. This is a main strategy to put games there - give them away for free (receive money from Epic), build massive playerbase, sell a lot of DLCs.

    I do expect more Total War titles on Epic in the future. From commercial standpoint it would be silly to not cover that market.
    as long as they offer it on Steam i will be fine. don't want games in epic TWW is combination game so to get best you need all three games plus dlc. and Epic has no mod support TWW has a very good mod community so yeah prefer it on Steam,

    So as long its not another exclusive **** i will be ok.
    Epic already has mod support. Not all titles have it at the moment but there are games that already have mods. I think it started in august. Troy should receive mod support this month.

    In the latest "What teams are working on" update they said that they are working on potential cross platform game/DLC combatibility so in theory if you have DLC on Steam, it will also work on Epic. To be honest it sounds like something made for potential W3 release on Epic.

    Back to the topic...

    I rather expect to hear news about Wood Elves DLC at best near the end of the month, with release in November (in pessimistic scenario in December). It has a lot of cross game/DLC dependency going on, so it might take extra time to make it work. Pandemic might also postpone some things.

    Completed EMPIRE, ROMEII, ATTILA, THRONES OF BRITANNIA, WARHAMMER, THREE KINGDOMS, TROY and ROME REMASTERED campaigns:
    EMPIRE
    France, Poland-Lithuania, Spain.
    ROMEII
    GC: Ardiaei, Arevaci, Athens, Baktria, Carthage, Cimmeria, Egypt, Epirus, Iceni, Kush, Lusitani, Macedon, Masaesyli, Massagetae, Massalia, Nabatea, Nervii, Odrysian Kingdom, Parthia, Pergamon, Rome, Royal Scythia, Saba, Seleucid, Sparta, Suebi, Syracuse.
    CiG: Arverni, Rome, Suebi.
    HatG: Arevaci, Carthage, Rome, Syracuse.
    IA: Antony's Rome, Dacia, Egypt, Marcomanni, Octavian's Rome, Parthia, Pompey's Rome.
    WoS: Athenai, Boiotian League, Korinthos, Sparta.
    ED: Armenia, Caledonii, Gallic Rome, Marcomanni, Palmyra, Rome, Saxoni, The Sassanids.
    RotR: Rome, Samnites, Senones, Syracuse, Taras, Tarchuna.
    ATTILA
    GC: Alans, Anteans, Eastern Roman Empire, Franks, Geats, Himyar, Jutes, Ostrogoths, Saxons, Venedians.
    TLR: Roman Expedition, Visigothic Kingdom.
    AoC: Kingdom of Asturias, Kingdom of Charlemagne, Kingdom of the Danes, Kingdom of Mercia.
    THRONES OF BRITANNIA
    Dublin, Gwined, Northumbria, Mercia, Sudreyar, West Seaxe.
    WARHAMMER 1 & 2 & 3
    W1: Belegar Ironhammer, Durthu, Karl Franz, Louen Leoncoeur, The Fay Enchantress.
    W2 - ME: Alith Anar, Count Noctilus, Ikit Claw, Imrik, Kroq-Gar, Louen Leoncoeur, Morghur the Shadowgave, The Fay Enchantress, Vlad von Carstein, Wulfrik the Wanderer, Wurrzag da Great Green Prophet.
    W2 - V: Eltharion, Lokhir Fellheart, Markus Wulfhart, Repanse de Lyonesse, Settra the Imperishable, Sisters of Twilight.
    W3 - RoC: Kairos Fateweaver, Tzarina Katarin, Zhao Ming.
    THREE KINGDOMS
    MOH: Liu Chong, Liu Hong, Lu Zhi, Zhang Bao.
    ROTW: Dong Zhuo, Gongsun Zan, He Yi, Liu Bei, Ma Teng, Sun Jian, Yuan Shao.
    AWB: Cao Cao, King Mulu, Liu Biao, Lü Bu, Meng Huo, Sun Ce, Yan Baihu.
    FD: Cao Cao, Liu Bei, Liu Zhang, Sun Ce, Yuan Shao.
    EP: Sima Ai, Sima Yong, Sima Yue.
    TROY
    Achilles, Aeneas, Agamemnon, Ajax, Diomedes, Hector, Hippolyta, Memnon, Menelaus, Odysseus, Paris, Penthesilea, Rhesus, Sarpedon.
    ROME REMASTERED
    RTW: Carthage, Egypt, Greek Cities, Macedon, Scipii, Scythia.
    BI: Eastern Roman Empire, Romano-British, Sarmatians, Slavs.
  • Goatforce#6625Goatforce#6625 Registered Users Posts: 8,467
    RafSwi7 said:

    Goatforce said:

    RafSwi7 said:

    neodeinos said:

    neodeinos said:


    neodeinos said:

    sykall said:

    Today is the last day of troy being free, if I remember correctly.
    I expect news one or two weeks later to seperate the wh release more from the troy release.

    There's still the Blood DLC for Troy coming, IIRC they said it was their next release so probably blood DLC next week, WH news the week after.
    can you share the source please ?
    Well it's supposed to release in October, it was in the latest blog when they shared their plans for all their games.
    Source? I haven't seen that.

    I see a lot of free things that I don't care about because they aren't on Steam. I'm not even joking.
    a blood DLC and a unit/god FLC is a good thing for troy, but its hardly content for an entire month.
    i am willing to bet the WE DLc will drop at the middle of november
    I doubt CA cares much about Troy now. They've made their money. Now they'll just see if the DLC sells
    Why would they not care about it?

    It has the biggest owners base among all Total War titles. Even if only a small part of them buy paid DLC it still might sell way better than DLCs for other games.

    Don't underestimate the power of numbers behind Epic. When Civ VI went free on Epic, its monthly average number of players (not owners) increased by 477% and during that time the average number of players on Steam was 41k (so in the same month Civ VI could have on Epic on average even nearly 200k players).

    When you launch Epic Troy still shows up in the most popular titles so it seems that people over there still play the game.


    Individually perhaps, and that is a definite perhaps given the reason it is so widely owned is almost certainly that it was free so there is no guarantee of DLC success months after the honeymoon has ended, but the issue is how much longevity does Troy have? It is a Saga game, which are designed to be smaller and are generally more limited (though also experimental tryouts for mechanics) - the issue with this is that it doesn't have the lifespan of a full TW game and once people start having to regularly pay for new stuff it may well start to rapidly shed users and drop off in terms of profits. Compare this to a historical title which has years worth of steady income from DLC in it, or WH which is a project that could easily yield steady income from DLC for about a decade (from release of 1 to end of 3), and Troy is far less attractive.
    They will just make DLCs for the games for which these DLCs will sell well. This is simple truth.

    Number of DLCs does not depend on being main or Saga game, but on a chance of being profitable. CA is most likely aware what % of total owners/players is buying DLCs. It is also probable that this % of potential DLC buyers is similiar among all Total War titles. The bigger is ownerbase/playerbase, the bigger are potential profits from DLCs.

    This is why Thrones did not have DLCs - its sold poorly compared to other titles (estimates shows that it might have sold even 5-10 times less copies than other TW games). If Thrones sold better it would have receive DLCs.

    This is also why it was RomeII that has received DLCs from Sofia studio and not Attila even if the latter was a newer title. It is not that Attila was worse game but it did not sell as well as RomeII (different estimations shows that it might have sold only one third of RomeII numbers). If Attila sold better, it would have receive these DLCs in 2017-2018.

    It is all about numbers. If Warhammer sales were average it would have receive much less post launch content.

    Troy has the biggest ownerbase among all Total War titles and (based on stats about GTA and CIv VI numbers on Epic)
    it might also have the biggest playerbase among all Total War titles. To put its numbers into perspective:

    Troy was claimed in over 7.5 million copies in 24 hours and it means that (based on leak from 2018):
    - in one day it was claimed nearly six time more than the total number of Attila players after a 3 years.
    - in one day it was claimed at least two time more than the total number of RomeII players after 5 years.
    - in one day it was claimed nearly 30 times more that number of total Thrones players after two months.
    - in one day it was claimed nearly 8 times more than total number of Warhammer 2 players after a year.

    CA wont say "Oh, Troy was more successful than we have anticipated so in theory can sell a lot of DLC copies, but we will not do them because Troy is Saga title".

    As long as Troy has good numbers behind it, it will receive more DLCs, if the numbers are not good it won't. So far its numbers I think make these DLCs more probable.

    Obviously, but whether the DLC sells well is completely unknowable as there has not yet been put to the test of having a pricetag attached to it.

    You can rattle off figures for how many copies were claimed as much as you want, the fact is that the reason it has such high numbers is that it was free - there is no telling how well paid DLC will sell, it may do well and it may not. There is also, as I said, a possibility of player numbers dropping off rapidly - though I am not sure it is possible to get the player numbers from Epic like it is with Steam.

    But yeah, with a game that was free at launch, the number of owners compared to games that were not is completely meaningless.
  • dge1dge1 Moderator Arkansas, USARegistered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 23,787
    Moved to Chat. This is definitely not a Warhammer game discussion, but a business, and subtle CA Rant.
    "The two most common things in the universe are Hydrogen and Stupidity." - Harlan Ellison
    "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." - Hubert H. Humphrey
    "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin/Mark Twain
    “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”–George Santayana, The Life of Reason, 1905.

  • united84#8186united84#8186 Registered Users Posts: 1,147
    The WH fans should be grateful for the fact that CA is releasing content and fixes despite it is Troy & 3K's turn in the product cycle.

    In addition, WH will be getting a 3rd sequel. Thing is, historical fans might not be as vocal as the WH counterpart probably because we are more matured but that doesnt mean we arent ****.
  • Goatforce#6625Goatforce#6625 Registered Users Posts: 8,467
    united84 said:

    The WH fans should be grateful for the fact that CA is releasing content and fixes despite it is Troy & 3K's turn in the product cycle.

    In addition, WH will be getting a 3rd sequel. Thing is, historical fans might not be as vocal as the WH counterpart probably because we are more matured but that doesnt mean we arent ****.

    We should be greatful that CA is releasing content and fixes for one of its most successful products, which has been promised content and fixes and was always expected to have content and fixes until game 3's cycle of content and fixes? Both Troy and 3K have recieved content very recently, WH has not, that appears to make it WH's turn.

    I don't know, you sound pretty salty. There is plenty of moaning from Historical fans, though admittedly far less than there used to be - probably because a lot of the haters have actually tried WH and found it is very good, rather than because historical fans are "so mature", seriously guy, we are all playing video games here, get over yourself.
  • RafSwi7#7492RafSwi7#7492 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,781
    Goatforce said:

    We should be greatful that CA is releasing content and fixes for one of its most successful products, which has been promised content and fixes and was always expected to have content and fixes until game 3's cycle of content and fixes? Both Troy and 3K have recieved content very recently, WH has not, that appears to make it WH's turn..

    Few months ago they have promised Troy DLC + FLC for this month, so don't be surprised or annoyed if we will hear more Troy news stated for October, well... in October.

    There will be no DLC for Troy in November, so there are good chances that Wood Elves will be released that month.

    Warhammer 2 has slower news/content cycle due to game being in the end of its life cycle (upcoming DLC is supposed to be the last, right?). It it obvious that newer games gets more spotlight. Warhammer 2 is already 3 years old, it won't get the same attention as Three Kingdoms (1.5 years old) or Troy (2 months old).

    Warhammer 2 had very good run, but most resources are most likely to be already redirected to W3. When Warhammer 3 releases, expect it to be the title that will have the most attention regarding news and content.

    Completed EMPIRE, ROMEII, ATTILA, THRONES OF BRITANNIA, WARHAMMER, THREE KINGDOMS, TROY and ROME REMASTERED campaigns:
    EMPIRE
    France, Poland-Lithuania, Spain.
    ROMEII
    GC: Ardiaei, Arevaci, Athens, Baktria, Carthage, Cimmeria, Egypt, Epirus, Iceni, Kush, Lusitani, Macedon, Masaesyli, Massagetae, Massalia, Nabatea, Nervii, Odrysian Kingdom, Parthia, Pergamon, Rome, Royal Scythia, Saba, Seleucid, Sparta, Suebi, Syracuse.
    CiG: Arverni, Rome, Suebi.
    HatG: Arevaci, Carthage, Rome, Syracuse.
    IA: Antony's Rome, Dacia, Egypt, Marcomanni, Octavian's Rome, Parthia, Pompey's Rome.
    WoS: Athenai, Boiotian League, Korinthos, Sparta.
    ED: Armenia, Caledonii, Gallic Rome, Marcomanni, Palmyra, Rome, Saxoni, The Sassanids.
    RotR: Rome, Samnites, Senones, Syracuse, Taras, Tarchuna.
    ATTILA
    GC: Alans, Anteans, Eastern Roman Empire, Franks, Geats, Himyar, Jutes, Ostrogoths, Saxons, Venedians.
    TLR: Roman Expedition, Visigothic Kingdom.
    AoC: Kingdom of Asturias, Kingdom of Charlemagne, Kingdom of the Danes, Kingdom of Mercia.
    THRONES OF BRITANNIA
    Dublin, Gwined, Northumbria, Mercia, Sudreyar, West Seaxe.
    WARHAMMER 1 & 2 & 3
    W1: Belegar Ironhammer, Durthu, Karl Franz, Louen Leoncoeur, The Fay Enchantress.
    W2 - ME: Alith Anar, Count Noctilus, Ikit Claw, Imrik, Kroq-Gar, Louen Leoncoeur, Morghur the Shadowgave, The Fay Enchantress, Vlad von Carstein, Wulfrik the Wanderer, Wurrzag da Great Green Prophet.
    W2 - V: Eltharion, Lokhir Fellheart, Markus Wulfhart, Repanse de Lyonesse, Settra the Imperishable, Sisters of Twilight.
    W3 - RoC: Kairos Fateweaver, Tzarina Katarin, Zhao Ming.
    THREE KINGDOMS
    MOH: Liu Chong, Liu Hong, Lu Zhi, Zhang Bao.
    ROTW: Dong Zhuo, Gongsun Zan, He Yi, Liu Bei, Ma Teng, Sun Jian, Yuan Shao.
    AWB: Cao Cao, King Mulu, Liu Biao, Lü Bu, Meng Huo, Sun Ce, Yan Baihu.
    FD: Cao Cao, Liu Bei, Liu Zhang, Sun Ce, Yuan Shao.
    EP: Sima Ai, Sima Yong, Sima Yue.
    TROY
    Achilles, Aeneas, Agamemnon, Ajax, Diomedes, Hector, Hippolyta, Memnon, Menelaus, Odysseus, Paris, Penthesilea, Rhesus, Sarpedon.
    ROME REMASTERED
    RTW: Carthage, Egypt, Greek Cities, Macedon, Scipii, Scythia.
    BI: Eastern Roman Empire, Romano-British, Sarmatians, Slavs.
  • Goatforce#6625Goatforce#6625 Registered Users Posts: 8,467
    RafSwi7 said:

    Goatforce said:

    We should be greatful that CA is releasing content and fixes for one of its most successful products, which has been promised content and fixes and was always expected to have content and fixes until game 3's cycle of content and fixes? Both Troy and 3K have recieved content very recently, WH has not, that appears to make it WH's turn..

    Few months ago they have promised Troy DLC + FLC for this month, so don't be surprised or annoyed if we will hear more Troy news stated for October, well... in October.

    There will be no DLC for Troy in November, so there are good chances that Wood Elves will be released that month.

    Warhammer 2 has slower news/content cycle due to game being in the end of its life cycle (upcoming DLC is supposed to be the last, right?). It it obvious that newer games gets more spotlight. Warhammer 2 is already 3 years old, it won't get the same attention as Three Kingdoms (1.5 years old) or Troy (2 months old).

    Warhammer 2 had very good run, but most resources are most likely to be already redirected to W3. When Warhammer 3 releases, expect it to be the title that will have the most attention regarding news and content.
    The Troy DLC is a Blood Pack, which tend to get a trailer on the day of release and that's it in terms of marketing (normally they aren't even announced beforehand, just dropped with the trailer), it is hardly something that requires a great deal of time or fanfare, and I recall that the FLC is fairly minor.

    There will be the MP release which, though a FLC, is a far bigger deal than a Blood Pack. I guess theere is the FLC too but cannot say how major that is.

    Objectively untrue, WH2's release cycle has been this slow since the TK DLC, which was the first major pack the game recieved, with 4-5 month gaps inbetween content almost every time (6 months for Coast, 3 for S&B LP being the outliers). WH2 is still massively played even with it's age, and every DLC that I know of was on the steam bestseller list as soon as it was announced, it doesn't matter that the game is old to CA, what matters is it makes money consistantly, and always will.

    Most of CA's resources have probably (almost certainly) been directed at WH3 since shortly after 3K launched, it is their next major title. There have been many WH DLC's in that time period, so acting as if that makes a difference this time is rather mystifying - if it makes a difference at all it will be to boost the importance of the WH DLC, as we are coming up to the finale of an incredibly ambitious (and successful) project, I doubt CA wants to sour the build up to WH3 with poor DLC for WH2 - which will echo into that game due to the fact of their interconnection.
  • RafSwi7#7492RafSwi7#7492 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,781
    Goatforce said:

    The Troy DLC is a Blood Pack, which tend to get a trailer on the day of release and that's it in terms of marketing (normally they aren't even announced beforehand, just dropped with the trailer), it is hardly something that requires a great deal of time or fanfare, and I recall that the FLC is fairly minor.

    IIRC Blood pack for Three Kingdoms had one week preorder period. We are nearly in the middle of October, so the end of the month is very probable period for release of Blood pack for Troy, so I don't see Warhammer 2 DLC being announced this month. I might be wrong but this seems very unlikely.

    Yeah, FLC is most likely to be minor - another god for Divinie Will mechanic (plus most likely some new mythic units). Troy should also have mod support this month, so it is another thing to cover.
    Goatforce said:

    There will be the MP release which, though a FLC, is a far bigger deal than a Blood Pack. I guess theere is the FLC too but cannot say how major that is.

    Yeah, MP is going to be released in November (unless delayed) but I doubt it will be covered that much. There is no plans for another FLC in November (unless there will be delays for October content).
    Goatforce said:

    Objectively untrue, WH2's release cycle has been this slow since the TK DLC, which was the first major pack the game recieved, with 4-5 month gaps inbetween content almost every time (6 months for Coast, 3 for S&B LP being the outliers). WH2 is still massively played even with it's age, and every DLC that I know of was on the steam bestseller list as soon as it was announced, it doesn't matter that the game is old to CA, what matters is it makes money consistantly, and always will.

    It is still objectively true that new games will always get more attention than old games. In general, Total War games tend to be in major focus for only a year. After that other games gets more attention. Supporting games with new content after one year is recent thing in the series. Attila DLC received its last DLC after one year, RomeII was the same (before Sofia studio returned to the title).

    When Three Kingdoms was released Warhammer 2 was nearly 2 years old. So, it was in centre of attention for longer time than other titles from the series (it might have helped that Thrones have been received rather poorly compared to other titles). So, there is no surprise that it release cycle slowed down, like every time when the next major title releases.

    Three Kingdoms is already in the stage where things will slow down for it and as new content goes it might only have another one year before it is abandoned. But even with that, like Warhammer 2 it will still have a great run.

    I am rather happy, that nowdays CA tends to support games longer than the very first year.
    Goatforce said:

    Most of CA's resources have probably (almost certainly) been directed at WH3 since shortly after 3K launched, it is their next major title. There have been many WH DLC's in that time period, so acting as if that makes a difference this time is rather mystifying.

    By resources I mostly meant workforce. Most people who worked on WH2 or WH2 DLCs might been already pulled to WH3.

    On the other hand 3K team (or in general major historical title team), might still be mostly focused on 3K (we haven't heard much about the next major historical title).
    Goatforce said:

    if it makes a difference at all it will be to boost the importance of the WH DLC, as we are coming up to the finale of an incredibly ambitious (and successful) project, I doubt CA wants to sour the build up to WH3 with poor DLC for WH2 - which will echo into that game due to the fact of their interconnection.

    WH2 received the most post launch content among all other Total War titles. Its support has been anything but poor. WH2 time is ending. The finale will be with WH3 (likley to be released next year). With it you might expect another 2-3 years of content.

    Completed EMPIRE, ROMEII, ATTILA, THRONES OF BRITANNIA, WARHAMMER, THREE KINGDOMS, TROY and ROME REMASTERED campaigns:
    EMPIRE
    France, Poland-Lithuania, Spain.
    ROMEII
    GC: Ardiaei, Arevaci, Athens, Baktria, Carthage, Cimmeria, Egypt, Epirus, Iceni, Kush, Lusitani, Macedon, Masaesyli, Massagetae, Massalia, Nabatea, Nervii, Odrysian Kingdom, Parthia, Pergamon, Rome, Royal Scythia, Saba, Seleucid, Sparta, Suebi, Syracuse.
    CiG: Arverni, Rome, Suebi.
    HatG: Arevaci, Carthage, Rome, Syracuse.
    IA: Antony's Rome, Dacia, Egypt, Marcomanni, Octavian's Rome, Parthia, Pompey's Rome.
    WoS: Athenai, Boiotian League, Korinthos, Sparta.
    ED: Armenia, Caledonii, Gallic Rome, Marcomanni, Palmyra, Rome, Saxoni, The Sassanids.
    RotR: Rome, Samnites, Senones, Syracuse, Taras, Tarchuna.
    ATTILA
    GC: Alans, Anteans, Eastern Roman Empire, Franks, Geats, Himyar, Jutes, Ostrogoths, Saxons, Venedians.
    TLR: Roman Expedition, Visigothic Kingdom.
    AoC: Kingdom of Asturias, Kingdom of Charlemagne, Kingdom of the Danes, Kingdom of Mercia.
    THRONES OF BRITANNIA
    Dublin, Gwined, Northumbria, Mercia, Sudreyar, West Seaxe.
    WARHAMMER 1 & 2 & 3
    W1: Belegar Ironhammer, Durthu, Karl Franz, Louen Leoncoeur, The Fay Enchantress.
    W2 - ME: Alith Anar, Count Noctilus, Ikit Claw, Imrik, Kroq-Gar, Louen Leoncoeur, Morghur the Shadowgave, The Fay Enchantress, Vlad von Carstein, Wulfrik the Wanderer, Wurrzag da Great Green Prophet.
    W2 - V: Eltharion, Lokhir Fellheart, Markus Wulfhart, Repanse de Lyonesse, Settra the Imperishable, Sisters of Twilight.
    W3 - RoC: Kairos Fateweaver, Tzarina Katarin, Zhao Ming.
    THREE KINGDOMS
    MOH: Liu Chong, Liu Hong, Lu Zhi, Zhang Bao.
    ROTW: Dong Zhuo, Gongsun Zan, He Yi, Liu Bei, Ma Teng, Sun Jian, Yuan Shao.
    AWB: Cao Cao, King Mulu, Liu Biao, Lü Bu, Meng Huo, Sun Ce, Yan Baihu.
    FD: Cao Cao, Liu Bei, Liu Zhang, Sun Ce, Yuan Shao.
    EP: Sima Ai, Sima Yong, Sima Yue.
    TROY
    Achilles, Aeneas, Agamemnon, Ajax, Diomedes, Hector, Hippolyta, Memnon, Menelaus, Odysseus, Paris, Penthesilea, Rhesus, Sarpedon.
    ROME REMASTERED
    RTW: Carthage, Egypt, Greek Cities, Macedon, Scipii, Scythia.
    BI: Eastern Roman Empire, Romano-British, Sarmatians, Slavs.
  • Goatforce#6625Goatforce#6625 Registered Users Posts: 8,467
    RafSwi7 said:

    Goatforce said:

    The Troy DLC is a Blood Pack, which tend to get a trailer on the day of release and that's it in terms of marketing (normally they aren't even announced beforehand, just dropped with the trailer), it is hardly something that requires a great deal of time or fanfare, and I recall that the FLC is fairly minor.

    IIRC Blood pack for Three Kingdoms had one week preorder period. We are nearly in the middle of October, so the end of the month is very probable period for release of Blood pack for Troy, so I don't see Warhammer 2 DLC being announced this month. I might be wrong but this seems very unlikely.

    Yeah, FLC is most likely to be minor - another god for Divinie Will mechanic (plus most likely some new mythic units). Troy should also have mod support this month, so it is another thing to cover.
    Goatforce said:

    There will be the MP release which, though a FLC, is a far bigger deal than a Blood Pack. I guess theere is the FLC too but cannot say how major that is.

    Yeah, MP is going to be released in November (unless delayed) but I doubt it will be covered that much. There is no plans for another FLC in November (unless there will be delays for October content).
    Goatforce said:

    Objectively untrue, WH2's release cycle has been this slow since the TK DLC, which was the first major pack the game recieved, with 4-5 month gaps inbetween content almost every time (6 months for Coast, 3 for S&B LP being the outliers). WH2 is still massively played even with it's age, and every DLC that I know of was on the steam bestseller list as soon as it was announced, it doesn't matter that the game is old to CA, what matters is it makes money consistantly, and always will.

    It is still objectively true that new games will always get more attention than old games. In general, Total War games tend to be in major focus for only a year. After that other games gets more attention. Supporting games with new content after one year is recent thing in the series. Attila DLC received its last DLC after one year, RomeII was the same (before Sofia studio returned to the title).

    When Three Kingdoms was released Warhammer 2 was nearly 2 years old. So, it was in centre of attention for longer time than other titles from the series (it might have helped that Thrones have been received rather poorly compared to other titles). So, there is no surprise that it release cycle slowed down, like every time when the next major title releases.

    Three Kingdoms is already in the stage where things will slow down for it and as new content goes it might only have another one year before it is abandoned. But even with that, like Warhammer 2 it will still have a great run.

    I am rather happy, that nowdays CA tends to support games longer than the very first year.
    Goatforce said:

    Most of CA's resources have probably (almost certainly) been directed at WH3 since shortly after 3K launched, it is their next major title. There have been many WH DLC's in that time period, so acting as if that makes a difference this time is rather mystifying.

    By resources I mostly meant workforce. Most people who worked on WH2 or WH2 DLCs might been already pulled to WH3.

    On the other hand 3K team (or in general major historical title team), might still be mostly focused on 3K (we haven't heard much about the next major historical title).
    Goatforce said:

    if it makes a difference at all it will be to boost the importance of the WH DLC, as we are coming up to the finale of an incredibly ambitious (and successful) project, I doubt CA wants to sour the build up to WH3 with poor DLC for WH2 - which will echo into that game due to the fact of their interconnection.

    WH2 received the most post launch content among all other Total War titles. Its support has been anything but poor. WH2 time is ending. The finale will be with WH3 (likley to be released next year). With it you might expect another 2-3 years of content.
    And Troy is a game so unimportant to CA's marketing that the 3K DLC got announced 5 days after the release of Troy itself... I wouldn't suspect that Troy takes priority over any of the mainline TW games, I don't see it getting much of a windup for something as minor as a blood pack considering that it is ultimately a side-project, albiet one that has good reach due to its being free at launch.

    Incorrect, it is not true that new games necessarily get more attention than old games.... case in point ToB, Troy's predicessor, which was dropped like a hot potato soon after its release. I am not sure that you get what WH:TW is, as it does not follow the same model as other TWs, which yes release and get a diminishing quantity of DLC over time. WH is probably more close to the "game as a service" model, at least in how it handles releases (luckily no microtransactions or any of that nonsense) - it is designed as a long burn project and previous releases do not go out of date as the sequels are released, by necessity as WH requires a lot of additional content to flesh it out as it is just too large to be adequately filled out by a standard TW game's DLC support. In other words WH's support will not drop off, and will not be out of the spotlight, at all until we get to the point where game 3 is announced and we then wait for the pre-order, if this is not the last LP WH2 will keep on trucking like it has for the past 3 years, it won't slow down at all. However it is quite possible, even likely, that this is the last LP and game 3's announce is imminant, and if not I can't see there being any more than 1 DLC remaining after it.

    But yes 3K will probably slow down now, as it is a standard TW flagship, again WH is not, it is designed as a project that will recieve continuous support and releases at a steady rate over a period of years - it is not even the case that CA will stop when they have filled out the armybooks anymore, as they are delving into supplementary sources which opens up a plethora of new options. Given that WH3 will likely have at least as long a lifespan as 3 (and that is being conservative), I cannot see a content slowdown for the TW:WH series happening (outside of the Game 3 announce-release window) until 2025 at the earliest.

    Yes I know you meant workforce, that is what I was talking about too. 3K had a rocky leadup to launch with massive delays, CA probably had all hands on deck dealing with that which is likely why it has taken game 3 so long to announce and thus why WH2 has probably had an extended DLC schedule (I got the impression that CA was not expecting to do a WE pack in this game when they launched 2, but may be wrong). But 3K is out, The next historical game is probably not in heavy development yet and may still be in the more conceptual stages, and thus manpower has likely been diverted to WH3, the next major release. All that will be working on 3K are the 3K DLC team.

    I realise WH2's support has been excellent, but as I said earlier, you misunderstand what exactly WH:TW is. WH 2 is massively effected by the lacking elements of the previous title, especially the comparative quality of the DLC races. This is now being fixed, with the reworks for WH1 cores and the upcoming DLC and rework for the WEs (one of the 3 races that are massively in need of work, and also the one least in need of work of them). Problems left in WH2 when it passes the torch to WH3 (eg lacklustre races like BM, WoC and WEs) will persist in that title, this is not the case in historical games which end when they end and then are completely new when the next game is out. Therefore CA has to consistantly nail releases (as bad releases effect their next major title) and know that if they do not tackle problems in the current game, the problem is not going away, it will still be there in the next one.
  • RafSwi7#7492RafSwi7#7492 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,781
    Goatforce said:



    And Troy is a game so unimportant to CA's marketing that the 3K DLC got announced 5 days after the release of Troy itself... I wouldn't suspect that Troy takes priority over any of the mainline TW games, I don't see it getting much of a windup for something as minor as a blood pack considering that it is ultimately a side-project, albiet one that has good reach due to its being free at launch.

    Are we going to forget that after The Warden & The Paunch, the marketing was focused on Troy? Also, Amazons was pretty much on the horizon so they had to be rather quick with Furious WIld announcement (announcment window was short).
    Goatforce said:

    Incorrect, it is not true that new games necessarily get more attention than old games.... case in point ToB, Troy's predicessor, which was dropped like a hot potato soon after its release.

    Multiple times I have mentioned that new games gets more attention but they must be "successful" to have content. I have also already mentioned how poorly Thrones did compared to other titles as the main reason of no DLCs for it.

    If the game has succesful launch it gets more content (if not it won't), but the older it gets the content cycle is getting slower.
    Goatforce said:

    I am not sure that you get what WH:TW is, as it does not follow the same model as other TWs, which yes release and get a diminishing quantity of DLC over time. WH is probably more close to the "game as a service" model, at least in how it handles releases (luckily no microtransactions or any of that nonsense) - it is designed as a long burn project and previous releases do not go out of date as the sequels are released, by necessity as WH requires a lot of additional content to flesh it out as it is just too large to be adequately filled out by a standard TW game's DLC support.

    Based on what we have seen so far, I don't see much difference between WH2 support mode and for example 3K, which seems to be a current CA way to support titles after launch (once again as long as these titles were financialy successful to guarantee such treatment).
    Goatforce said:

    In other words WH's support will not drop off, and will not be out of the spotlight, at all until we get to the point where game 3 is announced and we then wait for the pre-order, if this is not the last LP WH2 will keep on trucking like it has for the past 3 years, it won't slow down at all. However it is quite possible, even likely, that this is the last LP and game 3's announce is imminant, and if not I can't see there being any more than 1 DLC remaining after it.

    They did say before The Warden & The Paunch, that WH2 has only two DLCs left. We are already at the point of this "last" DLC. After that WH2 might not see any substantial content. IMHO it still can have some faction FLC with WH3 preorder (I think it will) but this is something yet to be seen.

    Please, also recall the end of the first Warhammer, which had a big gap between Bretonnia (February 2017) and WH2 pre-order bonus - Norsca (August 2017). WH2 might follow the same route - after Wood Elves DLC no meaningful content until WH3 preorder FLC arrives.

    By slowdown I mean that WH3 will have content not every 3 months but every 5-6 months and most liekly it will slow down after its first year. It will happen for sure when the next major new historical (Med3 or Empire2 or other) title hits the stores.
    Goatforce said:

    But yes 3K will probably slow down now, as it is a standard TW flagship, again WH is not, it is designed as a project that will recieve continuous support and releases at a steady rate over a period of years - it is not even the case that CA will stop when they have filled out the armybooks anymore, as they are delving into supplementary sources which opens up a plethora of new options. Given that WH3 will likely have at least as long a lifespan as 3 (and that is being conservative), I cannot see a content slowdown for the TW:WH series happening (outside of the Game 3 announce-release window) until 2025 at the earliest.

    I don't see any reason why any WH game should be treated somewhat differently than other flagship titles. Based on current 3K content plan, they aren't. As I have mentioned they used to support their games for only a year. It changed, but not only for Warhammer.

    WH3 new content release rate will also slow down at some point (like with every other Total War game and also every other WH game). Also, once again by slowdown I mean releasing new content in slower pace (not every 2-3 months but rather 5-6 months). As you can see that slowdown already happened for WH2 quite some time ago.
    Goatforce said:

    Yes I know you meant workforce, that is what I was talking about too. 3K had a rocky leadup to launch with massive delays, CA probably had all hands on deck dealing with that which is likely why it has taken game 3 so long to announce and thus why WH2 has probably had an extended DLC schedule (I got the impression that CA was not expecting to do a WE pack in this game when they launched 2, but may be wrong).

    I don't really think that the fact that we are still waiting for WH3 has anything to do with Three Kingdoms delays. In my opinion WH3 is still not out yet for two main reasons:

    1. Most likely WH3 will not be just a "reskin" of WH2 but is going to fix/rework some fundamental and core issues the previous two games had (like weak siege battles, weak diplomacy and economy systems or in general rather shallow campaign side of the game). Such rework would not be possible if WH3 was released a year after WH2. The most of core WH1 issues still exist in WH2. I believe that with WH3 we will not repeat that.

    2. Legacy content. WH3 will be three games joined together and this might pose several problems with the implementation of WH/WH2 content into the third game. We should remind here the case of Norsca in WH2. Porting it into the second game was so troublesome that they had to implement faction from the scratch into WH2. These are the problems that WH3 developers are nearly certainly also struggling with.

    In short words, Warhammer 3 might need entirely new "base" that it needs to be build upon to not only fix some long standing issues but also to successfully implement all content from previous games.

    WH3 might had to go the same steps of development as all brand new Total War titles and this might be a reason why it takes so long to make. IMHO it will also take the best of 3K and Troy and give it its own flavour.
    Goatforce said:

    I realise WH2's support has been excellent, but as I said earlier, you misunderstand what exactly WH:TW is. WH 2 is massively effected by the lacking elements of the previous title, especially the comparative quality of the DLC races. This is now being fixed, with the reworks for WH1 cores and the upcoming DLC and rework for the WEs (one of the 3 races that are massively in need of work, and also the one least in need of work of them). Problems left in WH2 when it passes the torch to WH3 (eg lacklustre races like BM, WoC and WEs) will persist in that title, this is not the case in historical games which end when they end and then are completely new when the next game is out. Therefore CA has to consistantly nail releases (as bad releases effect their next major title) and know that if they do not tackle problems in the current game, the problem is not going away, it will still be there in the next one.

    Considering that WH3 is most likely to be about Chaos forces, it is very likely that WoC or BM will be already reworked in WH3. The third game might not have lackluster races in such scenario (WE will soon be reworked in WH2).

    I understand that it would be better if WoC or BM were reworked in WH2 but sadly it does not seem to be in CA plans. It also comes down to the fact that WH3 team must take into the account the changes made by WH2 team and as I have mentioned earlier it might not be easy to just port these changes into the third game. They need time to do it, so at some point WH2 needs to stop creating new content/making some big changes to factions.

    IMHO no furher reworks for WH2 shows that we are likely to be in period that is less than a year before WH3 release. Personally, right now my guess is that WH3 will be announced in January or in general during early 2021.


    Completed EMPIRE, ROMEII, ATTILA, THRONES OF BRITANNIA, WARHAMMER, THREE KINGDOMS, TROY and ROME REMASTERED campaigns:
    EMPIRE
    France, Poland-Lithuania, Spain.
    ROMEII
    GC: Ardiaei, Arevaci, Athens, Baktria, Carthage, Cimmeria, Egypt, Epirus, Iceni, Kush, Lusitani, Macedon, Masaesyli, Massagetae, Massalia, Nabatea, Nervii, Odrysian Kingdom, Parthia, Pergamon, Rome, Royal Scythia, Saba, Seleucid, Sparta, Suebi, Syracuse.
    CiG: Arverni, Rome, Suebi.
    HatG: Arevaci, Carthage, Rome, Syracuse.
    IA: Antony's Rome, Dacia, Egypt, Marcomanni, Octavian's Rome, Parthia, Pompey's Rome.
    WoS: Athenai, Boiotian League, Korinthos, Sparta.
    ED: Armenia, Caledonii, Gallic Rome, Marcomanni, Palmyra, Rome, Saxoni, The Sassanids.
    RotR: Rome, Samnites, Senones, Syracuse, Taras, Tarchuna.
    ATTILA
    GC: Alans, Anteans, Eastern Roman Empire, Franks, Geats, Himyar, Jutes, Ostrogoths, Saxons, Venedians.
    TLR: Roman Expedition, Visigothic Kingdom.
    AoC: Kingdom of Asturias, Kingdom of Charlemagne, Kingdom of the Danes, Kingdom of Mercia.
    THRONES OF BRITANNIA
    Dublin, Gwined, Northumbria, Mercia, Sudreyar, West Seaxe.
    WARHAMMER 1 & 2 & 3
    W1: Belegar Ironhammer, Durthu, Karl Franz, Louen Leoncoeur, The Fay Enchantress.
    W2 - ME: Alith Anar, Count Noctilus, Ikit Claw, Imrik, Kroq-Gar, Louen Leoncoeur, Morghur the Shadowgave, The Fay Enchantress, Vlad von Carstein, Wulfrik the Wanderer, Wurrzag da Great Green Prophet.
    W2 - V: Eltharion, Lokhir Fellheart, Markus Wulfhart, Repanse de Lyonesse, Settra the Imperishable, Sisters of Twilight.
    W3 - RoC: Kairos Fateweaver, Tzarina Katarin, Zhao Ming.
    THREE KINGDOMS
    MOH: Liu Chong, Liu Hong, Lu Zhi, Zhang Bao.
    ROTW: Dong Zhuo, Gongsun Zan, He Yi, Liu Bei, Ma Teng, Sun Jian, Yuan Shao.
    AWB: Cao Cao, King Mulu, Liu Biao, Lü Bu, Meng Huo, Sun Ce, Yan Baihu.
    FD: Cao Cao, Liu Bei, Liu Zhang, Sun Ce, Yuan Shao.
    EP: Sima Ai, Sima Yong, Sima Yue.
    TROY
    Achilles, Aeneas, Agamemnon, Ajax, Diomedes, Hector, Hippolyta, Memnon, Menelaus, Odysseus, Paris, Penthesilea, Rhesus, Sarpedon.
    ROME REMASTERED
    RTW: Carthage, Egypt, Greek Cities, Macedon, Scipii, Scythia.
    BI: Eastern Roman Empire, Romano-British, Sarmatians, Slavs.
  • Goatforce#6625Goatforce#6625 Registered Users Posts: 8,467
    RafSwi7 said:

    Are we going to forget that after The Warden & The Paunch, the marketing was focused on Troy? Also, Amazons was pretty much on the horizon so they had to be rather quick with Furious WIld announcement (announcment window was short).

    Are we going to forget W&P was a DLC whereas Troy was a full game? Of course they are going to market Troy after W&P, though I seem to recall that the marketing was kept on W&P after it's release for longer than it was kept upon Troy post release, which is rather telling if I am remembering that correctly.
    RafSwi7 said:

    Multiple times I have mentioned that new games gets more attention but they must be "successful" to have content. I have also already mentioned how poorly Thrones did compared to other titles as the main reason of no DLCs for it.

    If the game has succesful launch it gets more content (if not it won't), but the older it gets the content cycle is getting slower.

    And we do not know if Troy meets that criteria yet. Yes it moved a lot of copies but that was because it was free (it would have made little difference to CA whether it moved 7000 or 7000000 copies, as they had already recieved the payment from Epic for the title and I doubt many copies have moved since the game became paid, until it came to content that would provide further income). By now interest in the game may have dropped dramatically and the upcoming paid content may perform badly, leading to a rapid decline in support.
    RafSwi7 said:

    Based on what we have seen so far, I don't see much difference between WH2 support mode and for example 3K, which seems to be a current CA way to support titles after launch (once again as long as these titles were financialy successful to guarantee such treatment).

    3K isn't being supported into the next historical title, WH is - WH2 will not stop being supported until game 3 is announced (and even then may recieve a DLC and pach with the pre-order, but that remains to be seen). Yes 3K could be supported for a long period but the regularity will likely decline as focus is shifted to developing the next Historical title, much like they did with Rome 2.
    RafSwi7 said:

    They did say before The Warden & The Paunch, that WH2 has only two DLCs left. We are already at the point of this "last" DLC. After that WH2 might not see any substantial content. IMHO it still can have some faction FLC with WH3 preorder (I think it will) but this is something yet to be seen.

    Please, also recall the end of the first Warhammer, which had a big gap between Bretonnia (February 2017) and WH2 pre-order bonus - Norsca (August 2017). WH2 might follow the same route - after Wood Elves DLC no meaningful content until WH3 preorder FLC arrives.

    By slowdown I mean that WH3 will have content not every 3 months but every 5-6 months and most liekly it will slow down after its first year. It will happen for sure when the next major new historical (Med3 or Empire2 or other) title hits the stores.

    They said that it had 2 LPs left, but also that that was subject to change. It is quite possible if they feel they need more time on WH 3 that they simply add another LP into WH 2 which will buy them another 4-5 months (and unlike if they wrapped up WH2 and then announced a delay to 3, they get income from another DLC for WH to plug the financial hole the extra development time creates). A faction FLC is unlikely, as there are no easy to make, partially implemented races in WH2, like Brettonia was at WH1's launch. We may however have a race added in the form of a pre-order to WH2, like Norsca to WH1.

    "Please recall"? I quite clearly noted that the flow of DLC would only be broken by the announcement-release window of WH3. Otherwise WH2 will keep on going until the announce of 3, and then WH3 will pick up where 2 left off with regular updates for at least 3 years, but probably longer. It is quite possible that this gap will occur after the next DLC, but we do not know atm.

    WH has only ever had a gap of 3 months once for S&B, WH2 has an average rate of content of about once every 4.3 months. But the fact is Wh2's content drop rate was not effected by 3K (the slowdown of content releases was first due to remaking Norsca, and after that was due to the reworks that came with DLC, as proved by the far faster delivery of S&B, which had no rework), proves that the assertion that WH3 will slow down due to another Historical title is utterly baseless. Historical and Fantasy are separate, WH 3 will only slow down once the Fantasy team move start to move to release something else, most likely a 40K game, Historical releases are irrelavant to WH's scheduling.
    RafSwi7 said:

    I don't see any reason why any WH game should be treated somewhat differently than other flagship titles. Based on current 3K content plan, they aren't. As I have mentioned they used to support their games for only a year. It changed, but not only for Warhammer.

    WH3 new content release rate will also slow down at some point (like with every other Total War game and also every other WH game). Also, once again by slowdown I mean releasing new content in slower pace (not every 2-3 months but rather 5-6 months). As you can see that slowdown already happened for WH2 quite some time ago.

    Yes it changed, but that change was not a regular as clockwork schedule for other games was it? Rome recieved a few packs, but that was it. 3K will likely be supported for a long time yes but I doubt it will be with the regularity of WH or it's longevity - there is only so much you can do with a historical title moored to a specific period (can add new periods in the conflict, but not to the dramatic effect that FotS did for Shogun), whereas WH has a far wider range of possibilities inherrent to it as it is based upon a TT game with masses of lore and supplements. Ultimately it will just be people on foot, or on horse (with some minor differences like adding elephants), fighting other people on foot or on horse, WH doesn't suffer from these limitations.

    As above, there has been no slowdown for WH2, that is just catagorically untrue. WH2 content has almost always been every 4-5 months, this and the last DLC has been slightly longer but CA already made a statement that this is due to Covid, as they stated W&P was meant to release in April but had to be pushed to May. You make these statements about what Wh3 will do based upon incorrect assertions of WH2's schedule, this is what I mean, you clearly have not paid much attention to TW WH, because you make it obvious that you don't know much about how it is being handled with each (incorrect) statement you make.
    RafSwi7 said:

    I don't really think that the fact that we are still waiting for WH3 has anything to do with Three Kingdoms delays. In my opinion WH3 is still not out yet for two main reasons:

    1. Most likely WH3 will not be just a "reskin" of WH2 but is going to fix/rework some fundamental and core issues the previous two games had (like weak siege battles, weak diplomacy and economy systems or in general rather shallow campaign side of the game). Such rework would not be possible if WH3 was released a year after WH2. The most of core WH1 issues still exist in WH2. I believe that with WH3 we will not repeat that.

    2. Legacy content. WH3 will be three games joined together and this might pose several problems with the implementation of WH/WH2 content into the third game. We should remind here the case of Norsca in WH2. Porting it into the second game was so troublesome that they had to implement faction from the scratch into WH2. These are the problems that WH3 developers are nearly certainly also struggling with.

    In short words, Warhammer 3 might need entirely new "base" that it needs to be build upon to not only fix some long standing issues but also to successfully implement all content from previous games.

    WH3 might had to go the same steps of development as all brand new Total War titles and this might be a reason why it takes so long to make. IMHO it will also take the best of 3K and Troy and give it its own flavour.

    1. if it fixes or reworks fundamental systems it is not just a reskin.
    2. The issue with this statement is that everything else in WH1 ported easily to WH 2, it was just the bespoke nature of the Norsca patch, the fact it was developed in parallel with the closing stages of WH2's development and on top of that they simply assumed that it would port easily like everything else did that caused the problem. They made a statement on this and asserted they would not make that mistake again, I assume all content will be tested to make sure it fits in 3 as we get closer to the finale's release.

    So does it need a new base or is it "just a reskin"? You seem to be rather confused on this matter.
    RafSwi7 said:

    Considering that WH3 is most likely to be about Chaos forces, it is very likely that WoC or BM will be already reworked in WH
    5. The third game might not have lackluster races in such scenario (WE will soon be reworked in WH2).

    I understand that it would be better if WoC or BM were reworked in WH2 but sadly it does not seem to be in CA plans. It also comes down to the fact that WH3 team must take into the account the changes made by WH2 team and as I have mentioned earlier it might not be easy to just port these changes into the third game. They need time to do it, so at some point WH2 needs to stop creating new content/making some big changes to factions.

    IMHO no furher reworks for WH2 shows that we are likely to be in period that is less than a year before WH3 release. Personally, right now my guess is that WH3 will be announced in January or in general during early 2021.

    Based upon? If we get more LPs than the upcoming one we will get more reworks, if the pre-order comes in game 2 we will also likely get a rework. But there is no guarantee WH3 will launch with 2 races already reworked - and the issue is that it is not just reworks these races need as they are missing huge chunks of their roster and named characters.

    Again, based upon? CA clearly stated the number of LPs is open to change, and there have been hints towards BM (Savage Edition WH1, movement in the SteamDb files for BM, comments made by CA staff on BM in Naggoroth). Again it was the particular coding of Norsca that caused that issue, your point on this is completely moot - after the final LP for WH2 there will be a gap in content which may be broken by the pre order, but given Norsca they may do the pre order as a pure WH 3 addition, more LPs have nothing to do with it.

    No further reworks? We are getting a WE rework soon. After that, possibly, assuming there are no more LPs AND that the preorder is released with WH3 not before. But going by WH2's announce to release you are way off, WH2 was announced 1 month after the final piece of content for WH1, so we can expect that if this LP is the final packfor WH2, the announce for WH3 will be in November, or possibly early December.
  • RafSwi7#7492RafSwi7#7492 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,781
    Goatforce said:

    Are we going to forget W&P was a DLC whereas Troy was a full game? Of course they are going to market Troy after W&P, though I seem to recall that the marketing was kept on W&P after it's release for longer than it was kept upon Troy post release, which is rather telling if I am remembering that correctly.

    As I have written Furious WIld had to be marketed and receive media attention before Amazons, so they had to release news and DLC in rather short period (less than a month). After that, we have again returned to Troy and we will stay with Troy in October for modding support, blood DLC and Artemis DLC. If WE DLC is released in December, Troy might stay longer in news attention.

    EDIT: Today Troy received first news about modding support.

    Goatforce said:

    And we do not know if Troy meets that criteria yet. Yes it moved a lot of copies but that was because it was free (it would have made little difference to CA whether it moved 7000 or 7000000 copies, as they had already recieved the payment from Epic for the title and I doubt many copies have moved since the game became paid, until it came to content that would provide further income). By now interest in the game may have dropped dramatically and the upcoming paid content may perform badly, leading to a rapid decline in support.

    CA still got money and this decides on financial success of the title. Majority of profits comes from the launch of the game. Obviously in that scenario 7.5 million is way better than 7000. In one day Troy might have secured more money than main titles during a year. It is not that they have been giving out Troy and Amazons for free without any compensation.
    Goatforce said:

    3K isn't being supported into the next historical title, WH is - WH2 will not stop being supported until game 3 is announced (and even then may recieve a DLC and pach with the pre-order, but that remains to be seen). Yes 3K could be supported for a long period but the regularity will likely decline as focus is shifted to developing the next Historical title, much like they did with Rome 2.

    Which is exactly what I have been saying all this time. I am glad you agree with me.
    Goatforce said:

    They said that it had 2 LPs left, but also that that was subject to change. It is quite possible if they feel they need more time on WH 3 that they simply add another LP into WH 2 which will buy them another 4-5 months (and unlike if they wrapped up WH2 and then announced a delay to 3, they get income from another DLC for WH to plug the financial hole the extra development time creates). A faction FLC is unlikely, as there are no easy to make, partially implemented races in WH2, like Brettonia was at WH1's launch. We may however have a race added in the form of a pre-order to WH2, like Norsca to WH1.

    It might change, it might not. Since they haven't said anything new about the matter, right now it is most likely that WE DLC is going to be the last DLC for WH2 (with the possiblity of FLC as preorder bonus).
    Goatforce said:

    "Please recall"? I quite clearly noted that the flow of DLC would only be broken by the announcement-release window of WH3. Otherwise WH2 will keep on going until the announce of 3, and then WH3 will pick up where 2 left off with regular updates for at least 3 years, but probably longer. It is quite possible that this gap will occur after the next DLC, but we do not know atm.

    Once again, this is exactly what I have written in my previous replies. Did you read my responses or my english is that bad?
    Goatforce said:

    WH has only ever had a gap of 3 months once for S&B, WH2 has an average rate of content of about once every 4.3 months. But the fact is Wh2's content drop rate was not effected by 3K (the slowdown of content releases was first due to remaking Norsca, and after that was due to the reworks that came with DLC, as proved by the far faster delivery of S&B, which had no rework), proves that the assertion that WH3 will slow down due to another Historical title is utterly baseless. Historical and Fantasy are separate, WH 3 will only slow down once the Fantasy team move start to move to release something else, most likely a 40K game, Historical releases are irrelavant to WH's scheduling.

    Goatforce said:

    As above, there has been no slowdown for WH2, that is just catagorically untrue.

    No slowdown, right...

    2018 = 7 DLCs and FLCs packs
    2019 = 7 DLCs and FLCs packs
    2020 = 2 DLCs and FLCs packs so far... and it seems that there are only two more incoming (paid WE content and free WE content).

    It is not hard math isn't it?
    Goatforce said:

    WH has only ever had a gap of 3 months once for S&B

    ,,,based upon incorrect assertions of WH2's schedule, this is what I mean, you clearly have not paid much attention to TW WH, because you make it obvious that you don't know much about how it is being handled with each (incorrect) statement you make.

    Mortal Empire (released month after release)
    Tomb Kings + Tretch (released 3 months after Mortal Empires)
    Steps of Isha (released 1 month after Tomb Kings)
    Queen and Crone + Alith Anar (3 months after Steps of Isha)

    So many errors on your part... is seems that you haven't paid much attention to WH2 content schedule.
    Goatforce said:

    1. if it fixes or reworks fundamental systems it is not just a reskin.

    So does it need a new base or is it "just a reskin"? You seem to be rather confused on this matter.

    Where did I say that WH3 is going to be a reskin of WH2?

    Once again, please read my replies more carefully.

    Let me copy important parts for you (with emphasis):

    Most likely WH3 will not be just a "reskin" of WH2...
    ... [WH3] is going to fix/rework some fundamental and core issues the previous two games had
    Goatforce said:

    2. The issue with this statement is that everything else in WH1 ported easily to WH 2, it was just the bespoke nature of the Norsca patch, the fact it was developed in parallel with the closing stages of WH2's development and on top of that they simply assumed that it would port easily like everything else did that caused the problem. They made a statement on this and asserted they would not make that mistake again, I assume all content will be tested to make sure it fits in 3 as we get closer to the finale's release.

    Thank you that you agree with me on this matter. As I have written the long development period of WH3 might be a result of all that WH1 and WH2 content that was created in the last four years. Since there might be a some problems implementing them I believe that CA is trying to make all of this content work on day one. Keeping in mind possible reworks it all explain a long wait for WH3.
    Goatforce said:

    If we get more LPs than the upcoming one we will get more reworks, if the pre-order comes in game 2 we will also likely get a rework. But there is no guarantee WH3 will launch with 2 races already reworked - and the issue is that it is not just reworks these races need as they are missing huge chunks of their roster and named characters.

    IF

    At the moment there was no confirmation that we will see more LPs after WE content pack.

    More LPs is just wishful thinking right now. It might happen, but at the moment it is not.
    Goatforce said:

    Again, based upon? CA clearly stated the number of LPs is open to change, and there have been hints towards BM (Savage Edition WH1, movement in the SteamDb files for BM, comments made by CA staff on BM in Naggoroth). Again it was the particular coding of Norsca that caused that issue, your point on this is completely moot - after the final LP for WH2 there will be a gap in content which may be broken by the pre order, but given Norsca they may do the pre order as a pure WH 3 addition, more LPs have nothing to do with it.

    Once again, open to change but RIGHT NOW there was no statement about change of plans.

    Yeah, that's how game development works. Outside of some last minute bug changes, development on WH3 might likely to be finished even few months before actual release (devs start working on DLCs). It simply might not be enough time to implement more reworks within WH2 DLC.

    Changes in the SteamDb does not have to mean anything, really. Some changes might be a result of upcoming sales, launcher patches or some new game bundles. RomeII, Attila or Shogun2 constantly have movements in SteamDB files. It does not mean that there is something new (like new DLC) upcoming for them. So, in that scenario changes for BM does not guaratee anything new for them.
    RafSwi7 said:

    No further reworks? We are getting a WE rework soon. After that, possibly, assuming there are no more LPs AND that the preorder is released with WH3 not before. But going by WH2's announce to release you are way off, WH2 was announced 1 month after the final piece of content for WH1, so we can expect that if this LP is the final packfor WH2, the announce for WH3 will be in November, or possibly early December.

    I have mentioned WE content multiple times in my replies, so I don't see why you are implying I am not aware of them (unless you have not read my posts too carefully).

    If you expect announcement in November it would make more LPs for WH2 even more unlikely.

    Completed EMPIRE, ROMEII, ATTILA, THRONES OF BRITANNIA, WARHAMMER, THREE KINGDOMS, TROY and ROME REMASTERED campaigns:
    EMPIRE
    France, Poland-Lithuania, Spain.
    ROMEII
    GC: Ardiaei, Arevaci, Athens, Baktria, Carthage, Cimmeria, Egypt, Epirus, Iceni, Kush, Lusitani, Macedon, Masaesyli, Massagetae, Massalia, Nabatea, Nervii, Odrysian Kingdom, Parthia, Pergamon, Rome, Royal Scythia, Saba, Seleucid, Sparta, Suebi, Syracuse.
    CiG: Arverni, Rome, Suebi.
    HatG: Arevaci, Carthage, Rome, Syracuse.
    IA: Antony's Rome, Dacia, Egypt, Marcomanni, Octavian's Rome, Parthia, Pompey's Rome.
    WoS: Athenai, Boiotian League, Korinthos, Sparta.
    ED: Armenia, Caledonii, Gallic Rome, Marcomanni, Palmyra, Rome, Saxoni, The Sassanids.
    RotR: Rome, Samnites, Senones, Syracuse, Taras, Tarchuna.
    ATTILA
    GC: Alans, Anteans, Eastern Roman Empire, Franks, Geats, Himyar, Jutes, Ostrogoths, Saxons, Venedians.
    TLR: Roman Expedition, Visigothic Kingdom.
    AoC: Kingdom of Asturias, Kingdom of Charlemagne, Kingdom of the Danes, Kingdom of Mercia.
    THRONES OF BRITANNIA
    Dublin, Gwined, Northumbria, Mercia, Sudreyar, West Seaxe.
    WARHAMMER 1 & 2 & 3
    W1: Belegar Ironhammer, Durthu, Karl Franz, Louen Leoncoeur, The Fay Enchantress.
    W2 - ME: Alith Anar, Count Noctilus, Ikit Claw, Imrik, Kroq-Gar, Louen Leoncoeur, Morghur the Shadowgave, The Fay Enchantress, Vlad von Carstein, Wulfrik the Wanderer, Wurrzag da Great Green Prophet.
    W2 - V: Eltharion, Lokhir Fellheart, Markus Wulfhart, Repanse de Lyonesse, Settra the Imperishable, Sisters of Twilight.
    W3 - RoC: Kairos Fateweaver, Tzarina Katarin, Zhao Ming.
    THREE KINGDOMS
    MOH: Liu Chong, Liu Hong, Lu Zhi, Zhang Bao.
    ROTW: Dong Zhuo, Gongsun Zan, He Yi, Liu Bei, Ma Teng, Sun Jian, Yuan Shao.
    AWB: Cao Cao, King Mulu, Liu Biao, Lü Bu, Meng Huo, Sun Ce, Yan Baihu.
    FD: Cao Cao, Liu Bei, Liu Zhang, Sun Ce, Yuan Shao.
    EP: Sima Ai, Sima Yong, Sima Yue.
    TROY
    Achilles, Aeneas, Agamemnon, Ajax, Diomedes, Hector, Hippolyta, Memnon, Menelaus, Odysseus, Paris, Penthesilea, Rhesus, Sarpedon.
    ROME REMASTERED
    RTW: Carthage, Egypt, Greek Cities, Macedon, Scipii, Scythia.
    BI: Eastern Roman Empire, Romano-British, Sarmatians, Slavs.
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