A reimagining of Belegar Ironhammer

#324448

The King and the Warlord is often named as one of the best Total War: Warhammer DLCs to date. It was the first DLC to add separate factions for preexisting races, introduced units that greatly fleshed out their races' rosters, and provided unique campaign mechanics that encouraged a strong narrative. While it's got some steep competition from the later Warhammer II DLCs, most still fondly remember it as a strong Warhammer I DLC when compared with entries like the Grim and the Grave and Call of the Beastmen.

The race for Karak Eight-Peaks remains to me one of the most notable aspects of the ME map; three separate factions, tied together by a narrative that leads them to wrestle for the same location, with rewards for taking it and penalties until you do take it. I always felt that Skarsnik had a very thematic restriction for the race: until you take Eight Peaks, you don't get orcs. Sure, he gets some significant buffs for goblins to make up for it, but nothing really compares to a solid frontline of orcs. In comparison, I always felt like Belegar's increase to upkeep costs felt a little flat.

I think most people agree that Belegar and his quest for Karak Eight Peaks is heavily inspired by Thorin's Oakenshield quest for Erebor. In The Hobbit and assorted expanded universe materials, Thorin did manage to give the exiles of Erebor a small refuge in the Blue Mountains, but in his quest he received nothing from the remaining Dwarven kingdoms, and had to rely on a small number of trusted dwarves, with no base to fall back to until he took the mountain.

What if Belegar Ironhammer's faction, Clan Angrund, was a horde faction? Now before you get angry, hear me out. I would only propose this change in a future where the quality of life for horde factions was significantly increased, because right now they're broken. But with this change, Karak Izor would no longer be your base to fall back to. Like Nakai for the Lizardmen, Belegar would be unique among the Dwarfs for his inability to settle, him and his dwarf armies refugees from Karak Eight Peaks that must roam the world to build their strength. I have to admit, the upkeep and growth rates that the Beastmen currently have would emphasize how desperate their struggle is, but I wouldn't want to encourage that kind of suffering.

You'd start out with military access with most other Dwarf realms; they'd be sympathetic enough to your plight to let you travel through their lands. But you'd have to carry your recruitment structures with you. If we wanted to make it really dynamic, Belegar and his lords would only be able to recruit basic Dwarf units, and elite stuff like Flame Cannons and Gyro Bombers would be delivered to you like the Imperial Supplies mechanic, the other Dwarf kingdoms sending aid the closer you get to retaking Eight Peaks.

Once you take Eight Peaks, it becomes your capital, and you can freely settle and build like any other Dwarf faction... with the added caveat that Belegar and your other lords still have horde buildings and can recruit on the move, allowing you to rebuild the Karaz Ankor like no other.

Captain_Rex#1635

I would like some sort of horde mechanic for him.

sykall#1105

It is an intriguing concept. But the dlc is already done and probably no one will change belegar up so radiacly.

Fossoway#5540

ArneSo said:

I would like some sort of horde mechanic for him.

I would like something like in Attila, with the semi-Horde mechanic. You could choose to settle down or pack up and leave.

#324448

sykall said:

It is an intriguing concept. But the dlc is already done and probably no one will change belegar up so radiacly.

Oh yeah, I doubt that this is something we'd ever see. His campaign is already pretty good as far as I'm aware and probably doesn't need this change. But it is nice to speculate from a hypothetical perspective, and a mod could potentially do this someday.

Captain_Rex#1635

Fossoway said:

ArneSo said:

I would like some sort of horde mechanic for him.

I would like something like in Attila, with the semi-Horde mechanic. You could choose to settle down or pack up and leave.

Yap that’s also something the GS and Ogres should get.

sykall#1105

Giveaway412 said:

sykall said:

It is an intriguing concept. But the dlc is already done and probably no one will change belegar up so radiacly.

Oh yeah, I doubt that this is something we'd ever see. His campaign is already pretty good as far as I'm aware and probably doesn't need this change. But it is nice to speculate from a hypothetical perspective, and a mod could potentially do this someday.

Yes speculations are always nice. And the semi-horde concept would've been better imo.
K&W was a good dlc for WH1 but the largest critique I have for it, is belegar and skarsnik starting so close to each other.
It is not much of the race, if one runner murders the other 5 metres after the starting line.
Taking queek into the mix the three lords should have started at the ends of a triangle with 8peaks at the centre.

Captain_Rex#1635

sykall said:

Giveaway412 said:

sykall said:

It is an intriguing concept. But the dlc is already done and probably no one will change belegar up so radiacly.

Oh yeah, I doubt that this is something we'd ever see. His campaign is already pretty good as far as I'm aware and probably doesn't need this change. But it is nice to speculate from a hypothetical perspective, and a mod could potentially do this someday.

Yes speculations are always nice. And the semi-horde concept would've been better imo.
K&W was a good dlc for WH1 but the largest critique I have for it, is belegar and skarsnik starting so close to each other.
It is not much of the race, if one runner murders the other 5 metres after the starting line.
Taking queek into the mix the three lords should have started at the ends of a triangle with 8peaks at the centre.

Yes that’s exactly the problem. Since Grom is also in that area, I really hope that CA will move Skarsnik somewhere else in Immortal Empires.

Assuming that we will get full continents for the final combined map, I also think that Wurzag should be moved to the Southland Jungles.

Grom_the_Paunch#8146

How I imagine Belegar...

Dead! Crushed beneath my tummy!

Alternatively, a temporary horde situation might have been cool until he conquered K8P.
*shrugs*
It is what it is. Until it isn't and, even then, I'm sure I'll manage.

Draculasaurus

I always viewed Belegar's start at Karak Izor as if he's simply residing there temporarily, as a guest of the local rulers, trying to raise funds for his next expedition to Karak Eight Peaks.

I think what might be a better way to represent this in game would be to combine his Book of Grudges mechanic with that of Markus Wulfhart's Imperial Supply Mechanics. You get access to very basic Dwarf units, but you need to raise funds for your expedition from the other Dwarf clans and holds. To do this, you promise to right some of their outstanding Grudges for them.

So, let's say Zhufbar asks you to take care of some goblins who wronged them long ago. If you agree, a new grudge is added to your Book of Grudges, but it doesn't cause the same penalties a grudge normally does, since it's not your grudge. Once you complete the grudge, you get some rewards from Zhufbar: new artillery units, for example, or money, or Oathgold, depending on how difficult the grudge was or what it was about.

And of course different holds would give you different things. Karak Kadrin would give you access to Slayers and various bonuses revolving around them. Karaz-a-Karak would give you better gyrocopters and lots of money. Karak Azul might give you new recipes for runic items in the crafting menu. Zhufbar would give you better gunpowder and artillery units.

Grom_the_Paunch#8146

Draculasaurus said:

I always viewed Belegar's start at Karak Izor as if he's simply residing there temporarily, as a guest of the local rulers, trying to raise funds for his next expedition to Karak Eight Peaks.

I think what might be a better way to represent this in game would be to combine his Book of Grudges mechanic with that of Markus Wulfhart's Imperial Supply Mechanics. You get access to very basic Dwarf units, but you need to raise funds for your expedition from the other Dwarf clans and holds. To do this, you promise to right some of their outstanding Grudges for them.

So, let's say Zhufbar asks you to take care of some goblins who wronged them long ago. If you agree, a new grudge is added to your Book of Grudges, but it doesn't cause the same penalties a grudge normally does, since it's not your grudge. Once you complete the grudge, you get some rewards from Zhufbar: new artillery units, for example, or money, or Oathgold, depending on how difficult the grudge was or what it was about.

And of course different holds would give you different things. Karak Kadrin would give you access to Slayers and various bonuses revolving around them. Karaz-a-Karak would give you better gyrocopters and lots of money. Karak Azul might give you new recipes for runic items in the crafting menu. Zhufbar would give you better gunpowder and artillery units.

I mean, I like this generally. I don't approve of stunties not settlin' their own grudges though. That seems a bit off. Maybe just have Belegar much into some quest battles to help his kin, rather than make it a grudge matter. I always thought stunties were pretty guarded about their own grudge books, not that I cared much, admittedly.

Draculasaurus

Grom_the_Paunch said:

Draculasaurus said:

I always viewed Belegar's start at Karak Izor as if he's simply residing there temporarily, as a guest of the local rulers, trying to raise funds for his next expedition to Karak Eight Peaks.

I think what might be a better way to represent this in game would be to combine his Book of Grudges mechanic with that of Markus Wulfhart's Imperial Supply Mechanics. You get access to very basic Dwarf units, but you need to raise funds for your expedition from the other Dwarf clans and holds. To do this, you promise to right some of their outstanding Grudges for them.

So, let's say Zhufbar asks you to take care of some goblins who wronged them long ago. If you agree, a new grudge is added to your Book of Grudges, but it doesn't cause the same penalties a grudge normally does, since it's not your grudge. Once you complete the grudge, you get some rewards from Zhufbar: new artillery units, for example, or money, or Oathgold, depending on how difficult the grudge was or what it was about.

And of course different holds would give you different things. Karak Kadrin would give you access to Slayers and various bonuses revolving around them. Karaz-a-Karak would give you better gyrocopters and lots of money. Karak Azul might give you new recipes for runic items in the crafting menu. Zhufbar would give you better gunpowder and artillery units.

I mean, I like this generally. I don't approve of stunties not settlin' their own grudges though. That seems a bit off. Maybe just have Belegar much into some quest battles to help his kin, rather than make it a grudge matter. I always thought stunties were pretty guarded about their own grudge books, not that I cared much, admittedly.

Quest battles seem unlikely, those are long and expensive to script, there's a reason CA has started doing fewer of them.

Still, Belegar making oaths or doing some sort of favor for the other Clans seems like a reasonable mechanic. Maybe that's all it would be: "Oaths" as a mechanic. You promise a clan that once you come int your own and reclaim Karak Eight Peaks you's give them ruins weapons from its vaults, or open up the Underway for them, or so forth and so on.

For added fun you can promise the same thing to multiple clans so that when you claim Karak Eight Peaks and all your creditors come to call you might find yourself in hot water.

Grom_the_Paunch#8146

Draculasaurus said:

Grom_the_Paunch said:

Draculasaurus said:

I always viewed Belegar's start at Karak Izor as if he's simply residing there temporarily, as a guest of the local rulers, trying to raise funds for his next expedition to Karak Eight Peaks.

I think what might be a better way to represent this in game would be to combine his Book of Grudges mechanic with that of Markus Wulfhart's Imperial Supply Mechanics. You get access to very basic Dwarf units, but you need to raise funds for your expedition from the other Dwarf clans and holds. To do this, you promise to right some of their outstanding Grudges for them.

So, let's say Zhufbar asks you to take care of some goblins who wronged them long ago. If you agree, a new grudge is added to your Book of Grudges, but it doesn't cause the same penalties a grudge normally does, since it's not your grudge. Once you complete the grudge, you get some rewards from Zhufbar: new artillery units, for example, or money, or Oathgold, depending on how difficult the grudge was or what it was about.

And of course different holds would give you different things. Karak Kadrin would give you access to Slayers and various bonuses revolving around them. Karaz-a-Karak would give you better gyrocopters and lots of money. Karak Azul might give you new recipes for runic items in the crafting menu. Zhufbar would give you better gunpowder and artillery units.

I mean, I like this generally. I don't approve of stunties not settlin' their own grudges though. That seems a bit off. Maybe just have Belegar much into some quest battles to help his kin, rather than make it a grudge matter. I always thought stunties were pretty guarded about their own grudge books, not that I cared much, admittedly.

Quest battles seem unlikely, those are long and expensive to script, there's a reason CA has started doing fewer of them.

Still, Belegar making oaths or doing some sort of favor for the other Clans seems like a reasonable mechanic. Maybe that's all it would be: "Oaths" as a mechanic. You promise a clan that once you come int your own and reclaim Karak Eight Peaks you's give them ruins weapons from its vaults, or open up the Underway for them, or so forth and so on.

For added fun you can promise the same thing to multiple clans so that when you claim Karak Eight Peaks and all your creditors come to call you might find yourself in hot water.

First he's a grudge-palmer, then he's an oath-breaker! *grumble grumble*

Yeah, I like this too. Might be because I'm green.

mightygloin#2446

All aside i'm still amazed by his extremely rich skill tree. Hopefully the remaining factions to be updated get such an intriguing one as well.

sykall#1105

Draculasaurus said:

I always viewed Belegar's start at Karak Izor as if he's simply residing there temporarily, as a guest of the local rulers, trying to raise funds for his next expedition to Karak Eight Peaks.

I think what might be a better way to represent this in game would be to combine his Book of Grudges mechanic with that of Markus Wulfhart's Imperial Supply Mechanics. You get access to very basic Dwarf units, but you need to raise funds for your expedition from the other Dwarf clans and holds. To do this, you promise to right some of their outstanding Grudges for them.

So, let's say Zhufbar asks you to take care of some goblins who wronged them long ago. If you agree, a new grudge is added to your Book of Grudges, but it doesn't cause the same penalties a grudge normally does, since it's not your grudge. Once you complete the grudge, you get some rewards from Zhufbar: new artillery units, for example, or money, or Oathgold, depending on how difficult the grudge was or what it was about.

And of course different holds would give you different things. Karak Kadrin would give you access to Slayers and various bonuses revolving around them. Karaz-a-Karak would give you better gyrocopters and lots of money. Karak Azul might give you new recipes for runic items in the crafting menu. Zhufbar would give you better gunpowder and artillery units.

What I would also like is something akin of making debts with other dwarf clans. You gain their support, but in return they want something of you after you conquered Karak Eight Peaks (money, units etc.)
You can then either pay them back for their help or be a real thorin oakenshield and break all previous agreements, leading to many grudges and inter-dwarfen wars.

Draculasaurus

sykall said:

Draculasaurus said:

I always viewed Belegar's start at Karak Izor as if he's simply residing there temporarily, as a guest of the local rulers, trying to raise funds for his next expedition to Karak Eight Peaks.

I think what might be a better way to represent this in game would be to combine his Book of Grudges mechanic with that of Markus Wulfhart's Imperial Supply Mechanics. You get access to very basic Dwarf units, but you need to raise funds for your expedition from the other Dwarf clans and holds. To do this, you promise to right some of their outstanding Grudges for them.

So, let's say Zhufbar asks you to take care of some goblins who wronged them long ago. If you agree, a new grudge is added to your Book of Grudges, but it doesn't cause the same penalties a grudge normally does, since it's not your grudge. Once you complete the grudge, you get some rewards from Zhufbar: new artillery units, for example, or money, or Oathgold, depending on how difficult the grudge was or what it was about.

And of course different holds would give you different things. Karak Kadrin would give you access to Slayers and various bonuses revolving around them. Karaz-a-Karak would give you better gyrocopters and lots of money. Karak Azul might give you new recipes for runic items in the crafting menu. Zhufbar would give you better gunpowder and artillery units.

What I would also like is something akin of making debts with other dwarf clans. You gain their support, but in return they want something of you after you conquered Karak Eight Peaks (money, units etc.)
You can then either pay them back for their help or be a real thorin oakenshield and break all previous agreements, leading to many grudges and inter-dwarfen wars.

It'd be nice to have some source of inter-Dwarf conflict. It would help slow down their snowballing confederation. That, and in the lore the different Dwarf holds are extremely independently minded. they may recognize the overall authority of the High King in theory, but his ability to actually get them to do what he wants is limited. Instead the different holds all have very defined identities and interests, and being Dwarfs the stubbornly stick to those identities and interests. It's one of the major obstacles to them ever uniting and reforging the Karaz Ankor, and there's nothing in the game that really represents this.

saweendra#3399

mightygloin said:

All aside i'm still amazed by his extremely rich skill tree. Hopefully the remaining factions to be updated get such an intriguing one as well.

This what honestly what belgar truly need. A actual unique skill tree