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Cold One Dread Knights in MP

Compiled_with_LLVMCompiled_with_LLVM Registered Users Posts: 110

Meta

CODK and especially ROR CODK are not cost efficient and they'd better undergo some rework. Some details were already discussed here. After a number of matches and testing it is even clearer that they deserve some improvements especially when compared to other units in the game.

1. They are very rarely picked.
2. They have no role at the battlefield. For every specific task a player can assign to them there is a more cost efficient unit that can do the same thing better.
3. CODK and especially ROR version are not cost efficient when compared to the options other factions have for the same price. As the result DE player is better sticking to cost efficient units and overlooking cost inefficient CODKs.

Comparative analysis

ROR CODK are worth 1500 gold.
Horned Ones are worth exactly the same 1500 gold.

CODKs have:
- -1080 HP (almost 25%)
- +20 armor (which gives ~15% more non-ap dmg resistance under the hood)
- +5 leadership
- -12 speed (almost 18%)
- +4 MA
- +23 MD
- -12WS (25%)
- -7 CB

It may look like they have almost twice more MD so this compensates the disadvantage on other stats. In reality it is not.

It should be noted that a unit must make use of its stats in order to be efficient. MD and MA stats only affect units engaged in prolonged combat and they are barely useful for squishy units that are already dead when statistical probability could play a role.

If you will add 100 armor and 30 MD to great cannon crew at a cost of doubling its price then it will make the unit worse than it is now because it will not add any efficiency to how a cannon is used. At the same time it will not be sufficient to make cannon too tanky because its HP pool will still remain too low and there are plenty of things that do AP damage. The cost increase will not be justified here.

Raw testing

Both CODK and Horneds are heavy cav that can do a number of things at the battlefield: 1) fight vulnerable targets 2) fight other cav 3) fight heavily armored elite things 4) surround and pin down monsters

1. First clash CODK ROR into a unit of Horned Ones 1v1
- First fight: Horned Ones won, 1800 hp left CODK routed 300 hp left. Fight lasts 1 min 15 sec
- Second fight: Horned Ones won, 2000 hp left, CODK destroyed 96 hp left. Fight lasts 1 min 6 sec
- Third fight: Horned Ones won, 1400 hp left, CODK destroyed 25 hp left. Fight lasts 1 min 36 sec

Conclusion: Horned Ones beat CODK hands down. They inflict a lot of damage on charge and then it is too late for CODK stats to turn the odds in the favor of CODK unit.

2. Test how good these units are at beating elite infantry (Harganeth executioners)
- Horned Ones vs Executioners test1: Horned Ones won 500hp left, executioners routed 470hp left. 3 min 6 sec
- Horned Ones vs Executioners test2: Horned Ones won 2000hp left, executioners routed 430hp left. 3 min 10 sec
- Horned Ones vs Executioners test3: Horned Ones routed 300hp left, executioners won 400hp left. 3 min 2 sec

- CODK ROR vs Executioners test1: CODK routed 100hp left, executioners won 500hp left. 4 min 7 sec
- CODK ROR vs Executioners test2: CODK won 576 hp left, executioners routed 300hp left. 3 min 54 sec
- CODK ROR vs Executioners test3: CODK won 700 hp left, executioners routed 200hp left. 4 min 13 sec

Conclusion: While it looks like CODK are designed to engage into this kind of prolonged fights with elite infantry they are not really better than Horned Ones. Both CODK and Horneds trade inefficiently because they lose too much hp to a cheaper unit. On top of that Horned Ones need less time so if they win then they win faster which is important for a shock unit.

3. Fighting a vulnerable target (Darkshards shielded)
- Horned Ones vs Darkshards test1: Darkshards routed with 1600 hp, 48 sec
- Horned Ones vs Darkshards test2: Darkshards routed with 2000 hp, 49 sec
- Horned Ones vs Darkshards test3: Darkshards routed with 1700hp, 49 sec

- CODK vs Darkshards test1: Darkshards routed with 1700hp, 53 sec
- CODK vs Darkshards test2: Darkshards routed 1900hp, 48 sec
- CODK vs Darkshards test3: Darkshards routed with 2000hp, 1 min 3 sec

Conclusion: roughly equal results, Horneds are a bit faster.

4. Fighting a Black Dragon
- Horned Ones vs Black Dragon test1: Horneds won 3700hp left, 1 min 10 sec
- Horned Ones vs Black Dragon test2: Horneds won 4400hp left, 1 min 4 sec
- Horned Ones vs Black Dragon test3: Horneds won 4400hp left, 1 min 28 sec

- CODK vs Black Dragon test1: CODK won 2400 hp left, 2 min 6 sec
- CODK vs Black Dragon test2: CODK won 1900hp left, 2 min 12 sec
- CODK vs Black Dragon test3: CODK won 2000hp left, 2 min 13 sec

Conclusion: Horned Ones beat CODK ROR hands down. Not only they beat a monster 2x faster but also they are at 62% to 82% HP at the end. CODK lose more than half HP in the process.

Additional abilities

Horned Ones have predatory senses which is a useful ability given that Snikch is a fairly common pick nowadays.

CODK benefit from murderous prowess (25% MA 25% CB 18% vigor). This is a useful thing but mostly for melee infantry which is 90% of time in melee. As CODK charge when there is an opportunity but not recklessly engage when the buff activates then it is not always possible for them to get benefit from this ability.

Small bonus for Horneds - they can be supported by magic or even revived by rev. bastilo which makes them even more tanky while CODK are gone if they get damaged.

Horneds are also decisively faster which is a great advantage for them.

Observation

CODK and their ROR version lack survivability. They have decent stats which makes them a bit better than complete garbage but not better enough to be competitive. There is no point in having high melee stats for a unit that has so low HP that it loses models sooner than statistical probabilities take effect.

Other factions can deploy units that are better than CODK in every single aspect for the same price.

I would suggest to increase CODK HP to the level of Horned Ones (4320 -> 5400)
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Comments

  • 39821739175248623982173917524862 Registered Users Posts: 1,131
    These units are absolute trash in campaign as well, almost no good skills or techs to boost them, slower and worse in terms of stats compared to every other comparable cavalry unit, locked behind t4 and t5 buildings, very high upkeep and not even used on Malus who has an upkeep reduction for them and lack of skill tree buffs for what is his faction focus unit.

    They really need better survivability, because of their lack of speed, they can get intercepted before doing any maneuver to pick their targets. They are not even really good used as reserves for when Murderous Prowess kicks in.

    Such a shame since it's a very cool unit that has great design.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,786
    It's a nice analysis. I do think you missed testing the main theoretical advantage of the unit - with higher MD and armour it should do better than other cav units when spending extended time grinding with non-AP infantry. However, even with that they suffer from expensive unit syndrome with vulnerabilities to magic, ranged, etc...

    I don't think the ROR is a great comparison point - it is a particularly bad ROR now since it pays for the elimination of rampage which used to be a much more crippling trait for the base unit. the base unit for 1250 is harder to directly compare to horned ones but much more affordable.

    For the ROR, they need something and it really could be almost anything to make them worth the extra cost/risk of taking.

    For the base unit, a bit more HP seems reasonable since that's what lizards get when going from cold one spear riders to Horned ones. That would synergize with their strengths as theoretically tanky unit and give them more upside.
  • SarmatiannsSarmatianns Registered Users Posts: 4,275
    Well, they are 250 gold cheaper than Horned Ones.

    Increasing their HP by 1000+ is too much, especially as they have 42 MD which is great for cav.

    Some increase in WS is more appropriate, along the lines of +3 or +4.
  • Totentanz777Totentanz777 Registered Users Posts: 143
    Just a quick note, the ROR has murderers mastery, which is far better than predatory senses. I assume this wasn't present in your tested but I it would heavily spike the damage output for them. Donr discount the ability by saying it is mostly infantry, that is not true at all. The ROR also does not rampage, which will not show up on your tests either but is a very useful mechanic.

    That being said I do agree that the unit is trash in its current state. I think your health buff is a good idea.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 8,053
    Not gonna happen, no unit ever get that much hp buff,

    What I can see happening is +720 hp, theres a story behind this exact number 720.

    Check guardian and grail, cold one to horned one.
    Then check what number is between cold and horned

    Its a huge buff +720, A slight cost increase of +$50 would be overall beneficiary for the unit. It is a net buff afterall
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  • hanenhanen Registered Users Posts: 470
    I would start with more HP and see how (if) the meta changes in some matchups.
  • Compiled_with_LLVMCompiled_with_LLVM Registered Users Posts: 110
    eumaies said:

    it is a particularly bad ROR now since it pays for the elimination of rampage which used to be a much more crippling trait for the base unit.

    The ROR also does not rampage, which will not show up on your tests either but is a very useful mechanic.

    Well. The ability "Primal Instincts" of non-ROR CODK says: Disabled if HP greater than 20%, gives +8 melee +16% CB

    I've played a number of games with CODKs. They don't actually rampage. They only start rampaging when they are close to death already but they also get some stat boosts to finally suicide themselves into something in a final charge.

    Afterall I'm not even sure if this "Primal Instincts" trait is a disadvantage or not. If they are below 20% HP then they are already gone given that 20% of their HP is 864.



    Ranked top#20 mp
  • outrage4outrage4 master engineerRegistered Users Posts: 322
    edited October 21
    Nice analysis but 1k hp buff is way too much.

    HP buff is the most obvious and the most boring buff for this unit. This unit is not that far from being viable but low HP makes it extremely vulnerable to direct damage and AP damage.

    I mean every unit of dogs has more HP than dread knights...

    I could suggest sinificant HP increase somewhere around 600-700 HP with price increase OR unconditional 200-300 HP increase on regular unit.

    As for ROR - it basically gains nothing from having ROR status (+30 seconds to MP and removal of primal insticts) but it has nice discount from rank 9 dread knght (185 gold). Dread knight can only start rampaging if they are below 864 HP. At this point they are basically dead and you not gonna heal them so rampage doesn't affect them whatsoever or affects in a good way.
  • Compiled_with_LLVMCompiled_with_LLVM Registered Users Posts: 110
    edited October 21

    Increasing their HP by 1000+ is too much, especially as they have 42 MD which is great for cav.

    I tend to agree that this may be too much for non-ROR CODKs but they still need some HP boost.

    Cold One DK(ROR) 4320 HP $1500
    Cold One DK 4320 HP $1250
    Demigryph Knights 5040 HP $1400
    Reiksguard 5040 HP $1150
    Grail Knights 5040 HP 20% phys resist $1500
    Grail Guardians 5760 HP 20% phys resist $1600
    Knights of the Realm 4860 HP $950
    Boar Boys Big Uns 5760HP $950
    Dragon Princes 4950 HP 20% phys resist $1400
    Necropolis Knights 5400 HP $1450
    Wild Riders 4995 HP 20% phys resist $1100

    CODK are by far the worst cav unit judging by survivability. In addition most elite cavalry units that are in ROR CODK price league also have 20% phys resistance on top of that.

    You're saying that 42 MD is great but it looks like it is only great on paper. It only helps a unit that is engaged in a prolonged combat. It does not help against (1) return attacks that hit you in the back when you pull out of the blob after charge, (2) missiles, (3) magic, (4) charging units that have so high CB that no matter your MD they have capped chance to hit. HP and resists are what helps in this cases. HP-wise CODK are garbage.

    You can easily invent a competitive build that involves 3 units of waywatchers becuase they are okay.
    You can easily invent a competitive build that involves 3 units of Questing Knights because they are okay too.

    More or less you can even use 3 units of COK if you really want. However you will have hard times when picking 3 units of CODK especially if you pick their ROR version because they do not deliver.

    And don't forget spirit lich on a 36 model unit. Having few models is a disadvantage on its own.
    eumaies said:

    For the ROR, they need something and it really could be almost anything to make them worth the extra cost/risk of taking.

    If they are designed to be tanky mobile guardian then may be "unbreakable".

    Ranked top#20 mp
  • SarmatiannsSarmatianns Registered Users Posts: 4,275
    I would very much doubt that Wild Riders are more survivable than CODK.

    Also, charge something like Blazing Suns into AP infantry and pull out after 15 seconds and then CODK, you will notice the difference in MD
  • Compiled_with_LLVMCompiled_with_LLVM Registered Users Posts: 110
    edited October 21

    I would very much doubt that Wild Riders are more survivable than CODK.

    They have 15% more HP. They have 20% physical resist. They have 45 models VS 36 CODK so they are not that much prone to spirit lich/ other targeted spells. They have support spellcasters in their roster so they are healable while CODK are not. They have 85 speed VS 66 CODK so they are likely to pick the appropriate targets.

    It is fine for a fast unit to be squishy. It is fine for damage dealer to be squishy. It is not fine when the unit is both low speed, low damage and low hp at the same time.

    Also, charge something like Blazing Suns into AP infantry and pull out after 15 seconds and then CODK, you will notice the difference in MD


    What reasons do some have to keep his shock cav in a 15 sec fight? You'd better pull them off right after the contact.

    Even though I did what you suggested. Here are the replay files: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1sYxZgRH-P3-TT3M0_AhKIRt22xEiKdqy?usp=sharing

    Test case1 HE lord mage (no spells) + swordmasters of hoeth VS cycle charging CODK: sword masters won with 500 hp left. CODK routed.

    Test case2 HE lord mage (no spells) + swordmasters of hoeth VS cycle charging Blazing Suns: Blazing Suns won with 2000 hp left. Sword masters got wiped out.

    Honestly I would not expect it to be that bad for non-ror CODK. Am I doing something wrong? May be the RNG does not like them too.

    Test case3 Blazing suns VS shadow warriors: Blazing suns won in 1m 5s

    Test case4 CODK (non-ror) VS shadow warriors: CODK won in 1m 30s

    (timestamps include the time needed for CODK/Blazing suns to walk from their start position to the shadow warriors... however it also applies to real fights where speed makes sense so I don't see a reason to limit time testings to fighting time only)


    Conclusion: CODK are worse than Blazing suns in situations where they are supposed to be better. CODK are also worse than Blazing suns in sutiations where they are not supposed to be better. CODK is not only worse, but also more expensive and less mobile. CODK is just a bad unit overall.
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  • Compiled_with_LLVMCompiled_with_LLVM Registered Users Posts: 110
    I suppose that CODKs have super high mass compared to Swordmasters and even Blazing suns. While it is good for situations where you need to pin down some monster it also makes them jump deeped into blob of infantry where they receive backstabs and flank attacks. They are also harder to pull off of the blob and they tend to get isolated and butchered. This makes them even less viable when fighting infantry and this explains why AL COK are so widely used and anti-infantry CODK are almost never used.
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  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,300
    edited October 21
    CODK are quite balanced just paying for 120 armor is not what you wanna be doing, For 1250g their stats are reasonable.

    MD is also a weird stat to pay for past let's say 30 on a cav unit.

    The RoR could use a buff.
  • SlekeeySlekeey Registered Users Posts: 16
    Green0 said:

    CODK are quite balanced just paying for 120 armor is not what you wanna be doing, For 1250g their stats are reasonable.

    MD is also a weird stat to pay for past let's say 30 on a cav unit.

    The RoR could use a buff.

    lol how do you consider them balanced if the above post says they are 1250g unit that is worse than 1100g blazing knights in every single aspect. they are worse in combat, worse in cycle charging, worse in chasing archers, slower afterall

    who cares about stats if they cant do things
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,300
    Slekeey said:

    Green0 said:

    CODK are quite balanced just paying for 120 armor is not what you wanna be doing, For 1250g their stats are reasonable.

    MD is also a weird stat to pay for past let's say 30 on a cav unit.

    The RoR could use a buff.

    lol how do you consider them balanced if the above post says they are 1250g unit that is worse than 1100g blazing knights in every single aspect. they are worse in combat, worse in cycle charging, worse in chasing archers, slower afterall

    who cares about stats if they cant do things
    I'm not against them getting a rework, what I'm saying is the stats they get over 1000g COK are reasonable for 250g. They are not the stats you look for in a cav but they are reasonable.

    The criteria OP chose are also kinda biased toward shock cav (which I can agree is the more useful type of cav). They ignore a number of things including:

    - Murderous Prowess
    - Cause Fear
    - 120 armor and 35% shield block vs the more common 30% of most cav units make them very sturdy vs for example archers who melt KotBS.

    Incidentally, KotBS are 1200g, not 1100.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 2,151
    They need a small buff to HP, or a 50g price drop
  • SlekeeySlekeey Registered Users Posts: 16
    Green0 said:


    I'm not against them getting a rework, what I'm saying is the stats they get over 1000g COK are reasonable for 250g. They are not the stats you look for in a cav but they are reasonable.

    stats - yes
    combat capabilities - no

    again stats dont make sense if they cant do things
    and dread ones cant actually do something worth 1250 gold like trade with something that is worth more than their cost except of big fast monsters but they are too slow to catch them
    Green0 said:


    The criteria OP chose are also kinda biased toward shock cav (which I can agree is the more useful type of cav). They ignore a number of things including:

    - Murderous Prowess
    - Cause Fear
    - 120 armor and 35% shield block vs the more common 30% of most cav units make them very sturdy vs for example archers who melt KotBS.

    op tested them in multiple odds and stated they are good for nothing which I agree with
    do they trade efficiently against other cav that they can catch? - no
    do they fight melee inf good? - no
    do they survive spells or missiles better than other cav? - no because they have 5% shield advantage and 25% hp disadvantage
    do they fight archers good? - no because other cav units do the same but better

    they supposed to be better at fighting because of stats but worse at charging because they are not actually shock cav
    in reality they are worse at fighting and worse at charge which I agree with

    Murderous prowess ok but it is not worth their price anyways

    Cause Fear? - horned ones also cause fear but they are faster, stronger, better at charge, better at everything

    slightly better armor and 5% better shield at a cost of not having 20% phys resist and 30% less hp and 20% less speed? no thanks
    Green0 said:

    Incidentally, KotBS are 1200g, not 1100

    ah really
  • Totentanz777Totentanz777 Registered Users Posts: 143
    I feel like people are way underestimating murderess mastery/prowess. You cant just say "its an alright ability" when it is a pretty great ability and your entire army gets it. It means they will hit much harder while its active and you are rewarded for keeping murderess mastery units alive until it goes off.
  • BastileanBastilean Registered Users Posts: 980
    I know this is Total War and stats change... but... 120 armor on CODK seems really high. Chaos Knights wear chaos armor. Empire Knights wear dwarf forged platemail. These have 120 armor.

    Dragon Princes have 110 armor.

    I would reduce the armor of CODK to 100. Then give CODK +20 hp per model would be more in line with other units like Horned Ones.

    I would increase the charge bonus to 44. CB 36 is one of the worst CB in heavy cavalry. Even Chaos Knights without lances have CB 44. Horned ones have 43.

    Keep in mind that after this Horned ones have +8% health +20% Speed and +25% Weapon Strength which is well worth a 20% cost hike or +250g.

    This may have been an oversight... COK and Lizard Spear Riders are juxtaposed with the Spear Riders having the 36 CB but they have the +12 AL. COK on the other hand have the +12AL and the CB 44. Are cold one spear riders under performing and COKs over performing? because that's how it looks in stats.

    IMO, Lizard Spear Riders should have CB 43 as well.
  • mightygloinmightygloin Karaz-a-KarakRegistered Users Posts: 3,254
    Them having the same HP as Horned Ones makes no sence because their riders are still no saurus but skinny elves. + few hundred more HP and stat tweaks wouldn't hurt though.
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Registered Users Posts: 9,628
    Trash unit.
    It needs to be pointed out that what people call "cheese" is just playing the game the way it actually exists not in some fictional way they think it is supposed to work.
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 3,550
    The problem is that their supposed advantage is useless against CB, specially when combined with their main weakness, low HP.

    42 MD means nothing when you are taking the charge of something with 60 to 80 CB, plus 35 base hit chance, plus whatever the MA is.


  • Compiled_with_LLVMCompiled_with_LLVM Registered Users Posts: 110
    Bastilean said:


    I would reduce the armor of CODK to 100. Then give CODK +20 hp per model would be more in line with other units like Horned Ones.

    They are a bad unit already, there is no point in reducing their stats. It is arguable whether +20 hp per model is enough to make them viable at all even without side effect nerfs.
    Bastilean said:

    I would increase the charge bonus to 44. CB 36 is one of the worst CB in heavy cavalry. Even Chaos Knights without lances have CB 44. Horned ones have 43.

    Well, this brings them to the niche of shock cav where they either need drastically more speed like 78 of Horneds or tremendous increase in CB in order to be viable. A slight increase in CB will not be sufficient to compensate the lack of speed and low models count etc.

    I would rather increase their defensive stats.
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  • Compiled_with_LLVMCompiled_with_LLVM Registered Users Posts: 110
    Pocman said:


    42 MD means nothing when you are taking the charge of something with 60 to 80 CB, plus 35 base hit chance, plus whatever the MA is.

    42 MD means nothing even if you are fighting mid tier melee inf. You need something like 56+ MD of grail guardians in order to ensure survivability because of stats.

    However GG have 5760 hp (33% more !!! ) and 20% phys resist and perfect vigor which means that their stats and most notably armor do not decrease in prolonged combat. It should be noted that GG still rely on healing but not solely their stats to ensure survivability. They also have higher models count, they don't dive deep into enemy blobs when charging because their mass is not that high, they have better speed, they have better CB with lance formation.

    They are not really far from CODK ROR by their price though.
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  • BastileanBastilean Registered Users Posts: 980


    Well, this brings them to the niche of shock cav where they either need drastically more speed like 78 of Horneds or tremendous increase in CB in order to be viable. A slight increase in CB will not be sufficient to compensate the lack of speed and low models count etc.

    I would rather increase their defensive stats.

    I said same CB as Chaos Knights (melee) not Chaos Knights (shock cavalry). Chaos Knights are same speed. Chaos Knights also have high MD. FYI Chaos Knights perform better than Chaos Knights (Shock) vs. other cav. You pointed out that they take longer to kill stuff. This will help them kill stuff.

    More health in exchange for less armor is an overall buff to defense that would be statistically more symmetrical and reduce the impact of enemy AP attacks and AP spells. You literally talked about that.
  • Compiled_with_LLVMCompiled_with_LLVM Registered Users Posts: 110
    Bastilean said:


    More health in exchange for less armor is an overall buff to defense that would be statistically more symmetrical and reduce the impact of enemy AP attacks and AP spells. You literally talked about that.

    This statement is correct but I don't think that they need more hp in exchange for something. I think that they just need more hp. They have a number of uncovered disadvantages such as lack of speed, low models count combined with high price, lack of physical resistances, charge animations that make them suicide more often than horse cav.

    They do trade well against some lighter cav units but they are not going to fight them because again they are too slow.

    I would just increase hp of CODK by 720 without any other changes (4320 -> 5040). Perhaps even add some MD or minimal physical resist like 5%

    I would very much appreciate ROR CODK to get even more buffs or fill a niche of Horned Ones for DEs. 4320 hp -> 5400 and speed 66 -> 78.

    I don't even think that this will make them overpowered. We will just start seeing them picked sometimes. Afterall they are ROR unit and a player can only have one of them. Despite their good melee stats they still have their animations, not that impressive WS compared to Horneds, lack of healing support.

    I really like Horned Ones and their mechanic. This combination of high speed and decent health pool makes them feel really different from "just another unit of cold ones but without spears".



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  • SlekeeySlekeey Registered Users Posts: 16


    I would very much appreciate ROR CODK to get even more buffs or fill a niche of Horned Ones for DEs. 4320 hp -> 5400 and speed 66 -> 78.

    I don't even think that this will make them overpowered. We will just start seeing them picked sometimes. Afterall they are ROR unit and a player can only have one of them. Despite their good melee stats they still have their animations, not that impressive WS compared to Horneds, lack of healing support.

    I really like Horned Ones and their mechanic. This combination of high speed and decent health pool makes them feel really different from "just another unit of cold ones but without spears".

    by sigmar YES! I love ror codk to be like a single horned one unit for dark elve roster with tough hp and fast speed even at a cost of return of rampage ability and slight price increase

    it will be amazing, not just one more cold one unit that does not rampage
  • BastileanBastilean Registered Users Posts: 980
    Well, Green0's right. They have additional stats and abilities that horned ones don't have like martial prowess and +13 MD.

    Anyway, CA isn't going to over buff them just because you think they they should be Horned plus at a bargain price. Fluffwise Horned Ones existed since 5th edition?... Fluffwise Dreadknights were a champion choice of basic CO not some exotic expensive unit choice. For some reason Dark Elves never got their hands on Horned Ones. For them to do so now, would be a retcon of the army books for the last 20 years.

    Horned_Ones

    There is no fluff for armor 120 DE knights either, but here we are.

    You can ask for the moon, but CA's going to give you more earth because that's where they want this game played on the ground of the battlefield with everyone having fun.

    As far as the ROR getting horned ones speed... this is not supported by the lore. They are not horned ones. They are Dreadknights+ which are CO plus. I am sorry to tell you this, but the lore behind the Ebon Claw is that they were turncoats whose leader was summarily executed after being utilized by Malus/Darkblade... not the kind of infamy you are looking for in your reknown knights.

    Knights_of_the_Ebon_Claw

    Knights of the Ebon Claw get Murderous Mastery:

    Duration: 120 Seconds
    Target: Self
    Causes Fear
    +25% Charge bonus
    +25 Melee attack
    +15 Leadership
    +18% Vigour

    Regular Dread Knights get Murderous Prowess:

    Duration: 90 Seconds
    Target: Self
    +20% Armour-piercing missile damage
    +25% Charge bonus
    +25 Melee attack
    +15 Leadership
    +18% Vigour

    Here's the problem I see with this 'upgrade'... Dread Knights already cause fear and Dread Knights are Armor Piercing, so you are actually losing +20% AP on this RoR!

    In my opinion, CA should drop MM from the ROR Knights of the Ebon Claw, go back to MP and give them a small something else like +20 armor. It wouldn't be a big buff, but it would let people like you who want to bring a really big boy cavalry unit to the fray could do that. Another alternative is adding AP to MM, because why would MM be a down grade of MP? Am I right? Another alternative is to give them a bonus damage when flanking enemy units. I think Opportunist Murderer might be too strong though without a price hike.

    Opportunist_Murderer

    Remind me not to take the Broken Tusk Mob. That's a hard pass on 350g for 15 armor and some ranks.

    Do I think Horned Ones were a gimmick to sell more models back in the day... yes I think I do.
    Dark Elves have been collecting exotic beasts for 1000s of years and supposed 'caught them all' and have them in pens in Karond Kar. Why don't they have their own horned ones? I don't know. GW never properly explained this. Maybe they come from spawning pools like Lizard men.

    Rakarth

    Bottom line on the Horned One issue, if you want to play DE then play them, but if you want to play Lizardmen because they have horned ones for +250g then play them.

    We can get some QoL for Dread Knights, but GW might not like Dread Knights looking like Horned Ones and should put the kibosh on that. And, if they get that kind of speed price is going up. On the other hand you can always just take something else that's better... which is why nobody uses them.

    Even so, I don't want you to be salty. CODK could use some love and the RoR definitely needs another look.
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 2,474
    They need more HP, maybe about 300 - 400 to start for free.


    I disagree that they get more HP to horned one level, horned one is a different species, known to be quicker and stronger. Add on top its a tough saurus riding it instead of a frail elf.

    Just to note OP , its minor but you miss out that CODK have 35 shield compare to 30 bronze of Horned ones


    murderous prowess s waaaay better than predatory sense
    CODK ROR loses primal instinct and gets murderous mastery.


    you will never bring horned one vs skaven anyways so your example of sensing sniktch probably will never be useful. Its not a terrible ability, but being so prevalent in LZM is not that useful
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