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High Elves builds suggestions

Imrith88Imrith88 Registered Users Posts: 3
Hello friends! First post in this forum...

I've been playing a few months now, loving MP over Campaign even if I lose a lot.
Trying to learn one faction before going to others, High Elves has always been my favorite (I have all the HE DLC).
Lookind for suggestions from more experiences players, and more recent suggestions as a lot of posts are a bit old DLC wise...

Now, I've been watching streams, videos, reading in this forum and reddit, and I've got a few builds that work pretty well against most races, but I struggle against:

Empire
Greenskins
Dark Elves

EMPIRE:

I saw how Lotus Moon does it against Empire, but his build is too difficult for me to pilot well. Point is I struggle against the artillery.
Magic: fireball is too slow to take them out before they get their value out of it, tried other spells but mixed results, for exemple Archmage of Shadow on Eagle and dropped Pit of Shades on a crew+cannons a bit underwelming for the cost in WOM.
Others: bolt throwers work fine, but range and map is an issue. My artillery works well only on very flat maps, empire's can snipe me even behing a hill.
Is bolt throwers the answer? Should I try and snipe their artillery while keeping my expensive units out of range? Alith Anar vs Empire maybe? It works VS Skaven's artillery, but I think because they are bigger targets, agains cannons they are not so effective.

I've tried shadow warriors, they work fine but forces me to stay in range of the arty given how slow they are.


GREENSKINS:

Tried sniping lord and mobility but man, I don't understand how they work. Once I killed the general early in the game, lasted to the end with a princess on stardragon and a few beaten up cavalry, opponent had two half dead spear goblin and one healty unit of orcs (big uns I think). I've tried charging them over and over, surrounding them, firebreathing them, still they didn't rout. On video they seem to rout so easily once the lord is dead...
Also I don't know what I do wrong but three units of Reavers Archers focus-firing take forever to kill even a single unit of spider riders, and they get beat up in the process...
Finally, they are so many and so tanky. Skaven give me less issues because lion chariots eat them alive, but dragon princes, for example, against orks everytime a charge in a few models remain stuck in the enemy unit when I pull out, and I lose precious HP and the deaths counts it's never enough...

Suggestions on army comp. for HE vs Greenskins in Sept 2020? :)

DARK ELVES:

Man, this is the matchup that frustrates me the MOST. Their units are slightly worse than HE ones, but are cheaper. Cavalry is not bad at all, and overtrades me on price and effectiveness, especially when supported with magic. I've tried done some magic supporting of my own, but two issues:

First not clear which would be good support magic in a cav vs cav fight given how little options HE have in that department. No spell gives AP right?? I tried plage of rust, but then I really miss the healing...
Second if I put a mage in the middle of two units of DP to support their fight I get gooned by the stronger DE morathi or malekith. Even Tyrion got dumped in the trash once by morathi supported by manticore. I always feel I need to bring a star dragon to protect me from general gooning and to try and goon myself, but that restricts me on the cav department, given the price...
Third, the chariots: seen few of them so far, have scary reputation, but I don't own that DLC so I can't test how to deal with them.
Forth, if I make an army specifically to try and counter their cav, chariots and lords, then I get killed by the first DE player who brings reaper bolt throwers and decimates my infantry (esp. sisters)

So, please, any help or suggestions for army composition, in the current meta, against these three? Don't need to give me advice on all three of them, but any suggestions will be appreciated.

Sorry for the long post, thank you for the help :)

PS: shouldn't there be a race-specific category in this forum so that, for example, all HE players can share information, tactics and builds? Or is the MP community too small for that?

Comments

  • The_real_FAUSTThe_real_FAUST Registered Users Posts: 1,082
    I am sure @Lotus_Moon @Disposable Hero @Green0 or @Loupi_ will be along shortly to be able to help you @Xiphos doesn't come on here often but would also add much to it.
  • DaBoyzAreBackInTownDaBoyzAreBackInTown Registered Users Posts: 248
    edited October 25
    Novice High Elf player but Greenskin main, atm it is a very tough match up for the High Elves. Greenskins are a bit overtuned in a few areas so hard to be prepared for every build type they can bring.

    That being said I tried out this build ( and it worked quite well.

    Post edited by DaBoyzAreBackInTown on
  • Elder_BasiliskElder_Basilisk Registered Users Posts: 389
    Against empire you have a lot of options.

    You can take something like four silver helms 2 nobles and metal archmage and a ranger and spearman front line with some archers and maybe a unit of sisters of Avelorn so you aren't completely dependent on plague of rust for AP (yeah, nobles have it but it's not enough).

    You can also use Teclis or Allarielle and use dragon princes rather than silver helms. If you do that you probably want to take a metal mage on foot with plague of rust (and maybe glittering robe if you want to protect a unit of sister of Avelorn from mortars).

    In that kind of build, you can try to kill artillery with searing doom or shoot it with archers but mostly you try to win before it can win for the empire.

    You can also bank on outshooting the empire. Alith Anar with moonbow, a fire archmage, or a mage of fire and a bunch of bolt throwers backed up by archers, maybe sisters of Avelorn or lothern sea guard. You can use fireborn, war lions, or silver helms or even a dragon as back line sweepers. If you do bring war lions, dragon princes or a dragon you probably want a life mage.

    You bring a front line that's some combination of spearmen, rangers, white lions, and/or silverin guard.

    In this setup you use moonbow, fireball, and your bolt throwers to kill any artillery and then use them plus any archers or sisters to shoot the empire down.
  • Elder_BasiliskElder_Basilisk Registered Users Posts: 389
    Against dark elves, you need to commit to a strategy and it is important to bring some mobility limiting magic. Teclis' net and Allarielle's tempest can slow the dark elves air units down and make them vulnerable to mass archer fire.

    The usual key units are star dragon and dragon princes and archers but white lion chariots can also be good here.
  • Elder_BasiliskElder_Basilisk Registered Users Posts: 389
    Greenskins are a tough matchup.

    Sometimes you can win with shadow warriors, noble chariot, metal mage on chariot, and silver helms. Defeat mobile forces early and then overcast plague of rust on stone trolls when they come out to chase and shoot them with all the shadow warriors. Shoot savage orc biguns and kill other infantry by cycle charging with chariots and cav.

    I'm told that you can also try a silverin guard front line and rely on archers and cav for damage and rear charges, overcast doom and darkness and the rahagra's pride (ror war lions) mighty roar ability to break their leadership and route them. It takes a lot of skill but some players can make it work reliably--not me but some players. If greenskins players come to expect kite builds that kind of build will probably get easier to succeed with.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 9,934
    VS Empire - commit to one apraoch, be it kite, or rush or ranged fire, dont take say kitting and few elements of rush that you can add in between because empire will beat you at range and will have enough gold invested to pressure you in melee.

    So two simple builds i recommend if my one is too hard to put of would be.

    2 Swordmasters, 4 Spearmen, 2 Dragons Princes, rest is up to you, lord choice aswell.

    or more ranged focused

    4 sea guard, 2 bolt throwers, 2 archers, fire mage lord on eagle, (this build does not need a healing mage as there are no good targets for heals, if you go without healing take silver helms instead of dragon princes).



    vs Greenskins - much harder at the moment, i think GS dominate HE's currently and you really are stuck with kiting, i guess a build that can do ok would be one that has 2 swordmaster, 2 Pheonix guard 3 siverins and 3 LSG, with allariel (i dont even know how much gold this is).


    VS Dark Elves - this is one of the hardest match up for Dark ELves, High ELves have a massive advantage here with kitting them, if you dont kite here you just throwing out the faction advantage, untis such as handmaidens, tiranoc chariots who are not too often seen in other match-ups are just superb here, reaver archers are very nice also and so are shadow warriors, ROR LSG is nice here too, basically anything that can move and fire is great here, a good lord pick can also be princess.
  • Imrith88Imrith88 Registered Users Posts: 3

    Novice High Elf player but Greenskin main, atm it is a very tough match up for the High Elves. Greenskins are a bit overtuned in a few areas so hard to be prepared for every build type they can bring.

    That being said I tried out this build ( and it worked quite well.

    Oh yes, remember this vid but I was skeptical of the "go wide go cheap" approach. But yes, mage of metal + lot of arrows sounds good, and the ellyrian reavers now that I think about it should work fine as long as I don't charge them against Black Orks. Maybe a late game plague of rust upgraded could also be used to make a good charge against armoured targets...Thanks!

    @Elder_Basilisk thanks for the suggestions! I will try the sniping route, after all both Alit Anar and the bolt thrower don't do a lot of damage but are quite precise, they should do the job. I WISH I could protect stuff in this game, but (and correct me if I'm mistaken) compared to the tabletop version I don't feel there are good options to "protect" an expensive unit from fire, like magic that protects from getting hit or that grants missile resistance. Glittering robe surely helps but against all the AP the empire can shoot at me I'm not sure I could get a unit of sisters to survive long enough...but I should test it for sure :)

    @Lotus_Moon thank you very much! Yeah I think I try too hard to have "well-rounded" builds to be prepared for anything, which is impossible because there will always be cheese :) I understand why you say it against Emp.

    Like the first build, but how would you protect those SM from arty? Precisely against races with excellent arty I feel that bringing slow, expensive unites like SM is to give them a perfect target. Of course while I advance I can try and pressure with the dragon principes, but alone they can't destroy the arty if it's protected by some spears and cav: even If I win the fight in the meantime my SM will get smashed....no?

    I like the second build. Love the firemage, even on a horse I managed to get 150+ kills with fireball shoot on the side of empire swordmen, but the artillery pieces go down one at the time soooo slowly! Guess should use the bolts against the arty and keep the fireball for the infantry, right?

    BTW.... I've tried Pit of Shades again, this time overcasted, and it MELTED the whole crew of one unit of cannons. So many WOM though....

    Greenskins: yes, I've tried kiting builds, even full cav (Lotus way!) but I guess it requires to micro very well to pull it off. The princess works well at sniping the lord though! Thanks, will try an infantry build, will post some reports once I manage to test it.

    Dark Elves: ok "kiting" in this case you mean mobility-shotting, not cycle-charging. Cotcha. To take advantage of the shorter range of the crossbows I guess? But how do you use the Tiranoc Chariots and Handmaidens here (with Teclis or Mage of Light + Net, I guess?), against their cav and/or scourgerunner? Tiranoc I've used only against Vampires because of the magic damage of the arrows against spectral cav, but vs DE what would be the target? Maybe princess + plague of rust here as well to make all the arrows count?

    Thank you all for your help :)

  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,582
    Hi, I have not read the multiplayer forum for a while.

    Like the others have said the Greenskin matchup is super hard now. I think it's by far the hardest mu for high elves this patch if the GS player knows his stuff. There are a few builds that you will have trouble to counter even if you know exactly what it looks like against an equally skilled opponent. I think your best bet (opposted to what Lotus suggested) is to play is defensively with 3-4 archers, lore of metal, a net from either mage or teclis, a dragon of some sorts, and a long range tool against doomdivers, either a BT or Alith. There are a few tech pieces here, like the ROR warlions can be great as can the ROR fire archers. Lores of metal, fire and light are attractive if you can squeeze them in in various combinations. I find mobile play vs GS this patch is almost impossible to pull off with rampage, potential double mither, double boulder drop. The mass cheap wolf/spider skirmishers are near impossible to counter cost-efficiently with anything except vanilla archers.

    Empire is uphill imo, but not impossible by any means. It's just very difficult to cover all bases. You can say the same from the empire side to some extent but I feel that my empire builds have smaller weaknesses than my high elf builds do. The units of choice are similar to the GS matchup actually, also here lore of metal mage helps a lot, while fire, high and light are attractive. Teclis or Alith can both work here as well, and the ROR warions are a nice tech piece. If Eltharion becomes cost efficient he will be great in this matchup, maybe he best one for him, but as he is costed right now you can just as well pick an arch mage of high. If Eltharion gets the buff he deserves this will be the matchup for him to shine in though.

    Dark elves is a weird matchup to me. It used to be a very good matchup for HE to kite in using reaver archers, shadow warriors, dragon princes, tiranocs, maidens, phoenixes you name it, but the introduction of scourge runners changed it quite a lot. You'll have to have tools to deal with SR with some efficiency. Maidens do ok, but slowly, magic missiles can help, and nets can make life so much easier. This is a matchup I should not give advice in because I am not really content with how I approach it. BTs might be under-estimated in this mu actually.

    The fourth tricky one is Lizards, which you didn't mention. A good liz player will give you a run for your money.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 9,934
    Well you cannot expect their arty get 0 value from you otherwise dont advance, mortars you can dodge with swordmasters and cannons dont kill much unless you let them, if they take few arty just rush forward You should win the ground fight easy and walk into the gaps.

    I dunno about all round builds i find all my armies can deal with everything even “cheese”.

    Pit of shades is not good vs arty, spirit leech is better if anything but once again dont expect ti kill it in 1 cast that be so broken and unfair for the opponent.

    Dark elves - Scoruge runners waste ammo like crazy unless you are standing still and letting them shoot they will not get value back and you can shoot them with maidens and spirit leech in the meantime.
    Tiranos aim ag cav units as when out of ammo you can use them vs infantry after.
  • SarmatiannsSarmatianns Registered Users Posts: 4,327
    Empire is decent from both sides I think. Biggest issues in Empire matchup is neutralizing their heavy cavalry, followed by artillery and Franz.

    With Rangers addition, Empire can no longer go for cheaper line or they risk being overwhelmed quickly, so they double down on cav usually.

    Against Greenskins, you have to be wary of Stone Trolls and Spiders. I find White Lions RoR (monstrous unit, not infantry) very useful in that matchup. Terror + rear charge + roar works very well.

    Against DE, you can try to outshoot them, you have higher range and also most DE units don't have super high armour or HP. Be careful not to blob with many expensive units at once because soul stealer will come and it will hurt.
  • Imrith88Imrith88 Registered Users Posts: 3
    Thank you all for your suggestions! I will try and make the best of it :)

    Greenskin is a head scratcher...so far the biggest issue against my all cav builds has been their capacity for boxing up, more than their capacity to swarm me. When they box, defending against the charge with stone trolls, each of my charges does very little damage to them and a lot to my expensive cav. The fact that Orks have relatively high mass, compared to skaven, is what really makes it hard for me to be able to break them apart.

    I think I will try some BT mixed with some mobility and see if I can break the box and then pick apart the isolated units.

    @Disposable Hero why do you say Eltharion would be good for this matchup? In a vacuum I can beat Carl Franz only by using tempest at least two times, plus some soul quench. If they can heal Franz then I'm screwed... The only HE lord that can beat Franz 1v1, in my testing, has been Imrik on dragon, but that's A LOT of money...maybe two phoenixes could help fending off Carl and then use them to help the cav vs cav fight?

    Thank you again Lotus, Hero, Basilisk and Sarmatianns!
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,326
    Imrith88 said:

    Thank you all for your suggestions! I will try and make the best of it :)

    Greenskin is a head scratcher...so far the biggest issue against my all cav builds has been their capacity for boxing up, more than their capacity to swarm me. When they box, defending against the charge with stone trolls, each of my charges does very little damage to them and a lot to my expensive cav. The fact that Orks have relatively high mass, compared to skaven, is what really makes it hard for me to be able to break them apart.

    I think I will try some BT mixed with some mobility and see if I can break the box and then pick apart the isolated units.

    @Disposable Hero why do you say Eltharion would be good for this matchup? In a vacuum I can beat Carl Franz only by using tempest at least two times, plus some soul quench. If they can heal Franz then I'm screwed... The only HE lord that can beat Franz 1v1, in my testing, has been Imrik on dragon, but that's A LOT of money...maybe two phoenixes could help fending off Carl and then use them to help the cav vs cav fight?

    Thank you again Lotus, Hero, Basilisk and Sarmatianns!

    direct comparison of stats shows Eltharion is overpriced by some 150-200g if you assume that Karl Franz is perfectly balanced.

    Winning with an underpowered lord doesn't mean that the lord is good necessarily; a lot of factors go into making one player win including skill, build luck, mistakes and so on.
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,582
    Imrith88 said:

    Thank you all for your suggestions! I will try and make the best of it :)

    Greenskin is a head scratcher...so far the biggest issue against my all cav builds has been their capacity for boxing up, more than their capacity to swarm me. When they box, defending against the charge with stone trolls, each of my charges does very little damage to them and a lot to my expensive cav. The fact that Orks have relatively high mass, compared to skaven, is what really makes it hard for me to be able to break them apart.

    I think I will try some BT mixed with some mobility and see if I can break the box and then pick apart the isolated units.

    @Disposable Hero why do you say Eltharion would be good for this matchup? In a vacuum I can beat Carl Franz only by using tempest at least two times, plus some soul quench. If they can heal Franz then I'm screwed... The only HE lord that can beat Franz 1v1, in my testing, has been Imrik on dragon, but that's A LOT of money...maybe two phoenixes could help fending off Carl and then use them to help the cav vs cav fight?

    Thank you again Lotus, Hero, Basilisk and Sarmatianns!

    A cost efficient eltharion will bring the same kit into the matchup as a high mage does right now minus wom generation but with melee power to stand up to Karl. Not beat him straight down but it you get a better engagement than him you could.
  • TicladesignTicladesign Registered Users Posts: 62
    edited November 4
    Maybe this helps; it's a build I use, but made around 2v2 or 3v3 mid skill matches. So take it as such.

    Step one, take Avalorn, you'll have more options of units. Take the following: Arielle on eagle, 2 nobles on eagles. Take the barskin, heal and star of avalorn ability on Arielle. This will be your air goonsquad designed to take out heroes/lords or support the rest of the army. Then for the rest take 3 Rangers, 2 Dryads, 2 Silverin guard, One fire arrows (RoR) archers, and two basic archers. and lastly one Erylian reaver cav.

    Weak point is no arty, so you need to either hide in a forest against ranged heavy races, or rush right away. Key is to use the Goonsquad most of the time, taking out important targets. The heals and buff to damage make this goonsquad dangerous and above all fast as they're on eagles. Your ground units can handle things but will need support from this expensive goonsquad.

    Hope this may help a wee bit!

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