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Coast nerfs and buffs for next patch

XiphosXiphos Registered Users Posts: 177
Alright, so coast has been overtuned for quite some time now, and next patch needs to adress all of their issues. Many units are overpowered, pretty much all zombies with guns, bombers, Harkon, Noctilus and obviously the absolutely busted pistol summon.

The faction is really obnoxious when these units are combined, yet the roster has some units that need buffs aswell, like depth guards, crabs and bloated corpse (this one probably needs a rework).



Let's start with lords, say hi to Harkon, the most op lord in the game, able to kill any lord in the air and then able to snipe anything on the ground thanks to his outrageous number or bullets. Take away his gun and he is still one of the best duelist in the game on his terrorgheist, hornswaggle, poison, regen, he has it all.

- Harkon --> -20 ammos, +100 cost for his terrorgheist mount

Noctilus is also a big issue, especially for anyone who wants to use archers. He is still very hard to snipe, has a crazy long range summon, lore of vampire with pistol summon, anti large and almost unkillable in melee. On top of that you often get ridiculous games where he is the only one left against 400 units, and the balance bar is still 50/50.

- Noctilus --> -100m range on his zombie summon item, +50 base cost, fix the broken balance bar



Let's adress right now the most op thing for coast, pistol summon. That thing alone is making coast an absolute nightmare to fight against, they can just summon pistols behind you even tho in most cases you are already outnumbered by zombies with guns that are shooting you from all sides, it also lasts for too long and doesn't cost enough WOM.

- Overcast Drawned Dead --> +3WOM, or simply remove the overcast



Now lets talk about zombie gunnery mobs, deck gunners and deck droppers. So right now all the zombie gunnery mobs feel overtuned for many reasons :
- very cheap for the damage they dish out
- very high hp pool
- 120 models zombies, almost impossible to outshoot or even tie down in melee because of how many they are and that they are zombies with spread formation, they simply don't care if you try to melee them, 80% of the unit will still be able to shoot other units. And being undead, they will keep shooting whatever happens.

First the gunnery mobs need a change from 120 to 90 models, with an hp nerf and better stats. They will be easier to shoot and when tied down in melee less of them will be able to shoot other units.

400g bombers will deal half hp on any infantry with just 1 volley
- bombers --> +50 golds

550 golds handguns, compare them to empire handguns who cost 600 golds (and are kinda weak for the price), they are simply better in every way, yes they have worse stats and more hp, but 68 vs 120 models, spread zombies with 'undead' trait, you will never route those gunners, and their damage output for 550 golds is absolutly insane. Also for zombies they are surprisingly accurate and able to snipe even the tiniest of creature (probanly because of 120 models)
- handguns --> +50 golds

600 golds handcanons can deal some heavy damages when they fire at the right time, compared to 550 golds handguns they seem quite week and very hard to use to get your value back with good volleys, mains issue is if you have them on fire at will and they fire at the edge of their range, their damages will be very bad. They would need a range decrease so they actuallt start firing at a range that is optimal for their weapon to do good damages.
- handcanons --> -20 range (keep in mind this is not a nerf ! when an enemy will enter their new max range it will be the optimal moment for them to shoot and do good damages, instead of wasting their ammos at longer range)

300 golds pistols are fine.


Let's talk about deck gunners, these guys are probably the most dangerous unit in the roster and what makes heavy gun builds so deadly. 700 golds for a unit that is basically an undead jezzail (900 golds unit), applies shieldbreaker : -24% Missile block chance, guess what happens when you play these with the 550 handguns everywhere ? everything that enters range is dead in 2 volleys. Even without the handguns, the deck gunners simply delete any archer play your enemy tried, kill the cav, snipe lords, infantry, artillery, take your pick.
These guys are in serious need of a price adjustment.
-deck gunners: +50/+100 golds

Also the ror deck gunners who are ethereal do not cause terror for some reason, that would need an adjustment
-ror deck gunners: add terror, +50 golds


For some reason last patch CA went for -50 golds on the deck droppers, well, let's revert that. Those are very strong units that can be resurrected, bombers are probably the worst offenders of the 3 types.
-deck droppers: +50 golds


Now artillery, this one is quite easy, look at the prices and look at empire artillery:
coast mortars --> 600 golds empire mortars --> 650 golds
coast canons --> 700 golds empire canons --> 800 golds

Those are basically the same units, yet, one faction is undead and the artillery crew will never route, can even be healed up.
there is a slight accuracy difference between those 2 factions, but that one does barely matter for mortars. i think price change is due.
mortars 600 golds --> 650 golds
canons 700 golds --> 725 golds


Alright we are done with nerfs, time to buff the units that need it.
Depth guards, it is an interesting unit that doesn't see much play, they are very susceptible to many kinds of damages, and paying 1200golds for a chaff cleaner is quite tricky. They might need better melee stats, HP and speed to be more viable.
-depth guards: +5 speed, +5hp per model, +2MD

Polearms are the saddest boys of the roster, they are very bad for the cost, for some reason they lose 24 weapon strength and 15 charge bonus compared to regular depth guards, being a polearm infantry doesn't mean they should only be good at defense. So, same treatment as regualr depth guards, but give them back some stats to actually hit stuff, and hit hard.
-depth guards polearms: +5 speed, +5hp per model, +5MA, +20WS, +5CB

Hulks are in a weird spot, mostly because mornghuls exist, yet for 750 golds they don't seem that bad, they just seem to die very fast, they also need a different role than mornghuls, so maybe faster and hit harder for them, stay squishy.
-hulks: +5 speed, +5CB

Prometheans are also not in the best spot, this time it might just be a question of pricing.
-prometheans 1100 --> 1050 golds
-prometheans handcanons 1350 --> 1300 golds



One last thing, if you want coast to be cool, remove vampire lore and work on the lore of deep, one of the coolest lore in the game, and please buff Vangheist Revenge, the spell take waaaaay too much time to be viable
Vangheist Revenge --> cast time windup -3seconds (yes no joke it is actually that bad)


Ok, have fun with this. Cya.
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Comments

  • XiphosXiphos Registered Users Posts: 177
    I forgot to add that the passive "extra powder" is also a huge issue, makes guns delete everything with their first 4 volleys, that is also in need of a nerf
    goes from 30% buffs --> 20% buffs
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,998
    Good stuff!

    I would maybe add less wom to pistol summon and instead decrease their duration by a lot. I don't remember exact duration now from the top of my head but it's like a minute too long iirc.

    As for the lore of vampires I doubt CA will remove the characters and the lore, but a lower hanging fruit would be to replace vampirate nehek with another spell, just like the drowned dead was replaced in the lore from before.
  • AmonkhetAmonkhet Registered Users Posts: 4,304
    This would definitely tone down the Ranged firepower of the Vampire Coast; but I don't see how this is going to make their melee units that much better... also removing a lore of magic and not replacing with another is massive massive nerf; expecially as the lore of the deep isnt good enough to justify that.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,612
    reasonable suggestions. Pistol summon lasts WAY too long. It should be comparable to the basic summon. Basically, WoM, gold cost, and duration of a summon need to always exhibit the same ratio. A longer summon is fine but must cost more WoM.

    This is perhaps a place to also mention that the VC Skeleton summon needs a gentle buff. I think duration is the way to go here.
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Registered Users Posts: 1,420
    Amonkhet said:

    This would definitely tone down the Ranged firepower of the Vampire Coast; but I don't see how this is going to make their melee units that much better... also removing a lore of magic and not replacing with another is massive massive nerf; expecially as the lore of the deep isnt good enough to justify that.

    I feel that depth guard polearms should change to depth guard great weapons while the ROR unit stays as polearms to differentiate it better from the regular version.

    Also, I don't see why they can't have 60 models vs 45. Blood knights are a very powerful vampiric unit of cav with 45 models (standard size for cav). So why DG get only 45? Even elite units get at least 60.

    Harkon is only overturned on goose. On foot he is just OK.

    I think bombers should get less model count. Even at 450g they will still be very oppressive.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 2,482
    edited October 2020
    yep totally agree. About extra powder, it should probably not affect luthors breath attack. One more thing is that scurvy dogs can go through infantry. this should not be so easy to do, or even possible really.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,328
    This is a bit overkill in the particulars. Remember there was a time before bombers got buffed when vampire coast was almost reasonable to play against, in spite of having poor internal balance.

    Anyway, more specifically here's where I disagree:

    - You aren't nerfing bombers enough with +50g. They are clearly more impactful than that and the largest single reason VP are over-performing right now.

    - Depth guard the buffs make sense but they won't really shift the playstyle much. i think this unit needs to get about 100 gold cheaper so that it's a viable cornerstone of a different playstyle option. Pricy but stronger still makes them very vulnerable for the cost to the same thing the rest of the roster is weak too -- massed archers. Speed helps a little; or if not changing the price they could have slightly better armour.

    - general nerfs to gunnery mobs I can get behind

    - Agree on Harkon nerfs.

    - Agree on the pistol summon nersf.

    - Disagree on the nerfs to coast artillery - they are a super slow faction and really need to be strong in this area. Their artillery being cheap is not unreasonable given their faction situation.

    - Similarly, deck gunners have very well defined weaknesses, unlike the zombie mobs. Strong, yes, but none of the mobility of skaven weapon teams or bowshabti. They definitely should not be nerfed. You get value from killing them, they are not what's wrong with the VP roster.

    - deck droppers I could go either way - I don't think they're as oppressive any more since they had their turn speed and other things nerfed a while back.

    - buffs to the big large targets, i could go either way. I don't find them bad; but sure since you're nerfing alot elsewhere.

    - noctilus I don't really think needs more nerfs.




  • blindjonnblindjonn Registered Users Posts: 870
    Loupi_ said:

    yep totally agree. About extra powder, it should probably not affect luthors breath attack. One more thing is that scurvy dogs can go through infantry. this should not be so easy to do, or even possible really.

    Extra Powder shouldn't affect breaths but should affect Sartosa militia.
  • XiphosXiphos Registered Users Posts: 177
    eumaies said:


    - Similarly, deck gunners have very well defined weaknesses, unlike the zombie mobs. Strong, yes, but none of the mobility of skaven weapon teams or bowshabti. They definitely should not be nerfed. You get value from killing them, they are not what's wrong with the VP roster.

    - noctilus I don't really think needs more nerfs.

    Noctilus is still very op, especially his crazy range summon, and deck gunners are super op, one of the unit that carries coast and enables gun builds to trash literally everything. If you don't want price bump on them then they should get the shieldbreaker removed.

    And if you ask me, i discussed those changes with Enticity, the master of Vampire Coast, and he told me he'd still feel comfortable with deck gunners being 800 golds, because that is the price they deserve.
  • UberReptilianUberReptilian U.S.S.RRegistered Users Posts: 3,437
    Damn OP. First post I’ve ever seen of yours and it’s right on the money. 100% agree though I would add the addendum that removing Lore of Vampires is something I wholeheartedly agree with, I think Noctilus should keep it as it helps him stand out from Cylostra and he is a Von Cartstein after all.

    I don’t think CA would ever remove an entire lore of Magic from a race, but I would like to know why they gave them LoV to begin with. Always seemed contradictory if they wanted Lore of the Deep to help the race stand out on its on but then gave them arguably the best lore in the game at the time of V Coasts release.
  • XiphosXiphos Registered Users Posts: 177
    lore of the deep is really super cool, and needs some buffs here and there, Coast would be amazing and really interesting if they were more "pirate focus" and focus on lore of the deep. Sadly they have lore of vampire, and right now there is nothing better than healing units and summoning stuff.
  • AmonkhetAmonkhet Registered Users Posts: 4,304
    Well, they are an undead faction. They still have to play like an undead faction.
  • WitchbladeWitchblade Registered Users Posts: 954
    Agreed for the most part, but bombers are far, far more egregious than you point out. They're quite possibly the most OP unit in the game right now, I think literally the only topic where a recent survey among top players pointed out there's a nearly full consensus they're OP. They're easily worth 600 gold, as the combination of zombie + bomber destroys almost any infantry unit in the game and even most cavalry units. They actually deal very respectable damage to monsters and monstrous infantry too.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 2,482
    This applies to all undead, but when a unit is disintegrating and is being rampaged, the disintegration effect doesnt work and the unit just crumbles instead. can make night terrors ridiculous to kill
  • The_real_FAUSTThe_real_FAUST Registered Users Posts: 1,349
    I have written a few times on this so its unsurprising that I agree with just about everythign Xiphos has put forward.

    I'd only say some of the gold amounts are too low!

    The most reasonable balancing to me in most cases with VP is in terms of unit models, but I appreciate this may not appeal to the SP crowd, as a result it needs to come from gold.

    Nerfing bomber, pistol and handgun stats do nothing as that is absolutley not an affector on their outputs.

    Ideally they would drop to 90 models.

    If this isnt the case their gold must go up.

    Nerfing explosions also nerfs outrider grenades and miners and deck dropper bombers, who arent problematic.

    Zombers could easily, easily go to 600 gold

    Zomgunners should be 700

    Zombie pistols are fine as is but the pistol summon needs -45 secs and +1 WOM

    Deck Gunners are a superb unit, they are 800 gold without a shadow of a doubt, they should also lose shieldbreaker.

    Deckhands polearms need +50

    Luthor needs +100 on Goose.

    Noctilus summon needs to be 100m

    Totally agree with Xiphos, Lore of Deep is a great, fun and effective Lore. it doesnt need many buffs but lore of Vampires is too strong with VP. Some slight adjustments to what nehek could heal might be an answer- remove its use on monsters in the roster, have it support Zombie units only.
  • mightygloinmightygloin Karaz-a-KarakRegistered Users Posts: 4,008
    Harkon on foot is rare and hardly any toxic. The ammo nerf should affect only the mount and could be even more than -20. Melee + shooting at the same time is highly annoying, maybe his accuracy could be nerfed as well.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,328
    Xiphos said:

    eumaies said:


    - Similarly, deck gunners have very well defined weaknesses, unlike the zombie mobs. Strong, yes, but none of the mobility of skaven weapon teams or bowshabti. They definitely should not be nerfed. You get value from killing them, they are not what's wrong with the VP roster.

    - noctilus I don't really think needs more nerfs.

    Noctilus is still very op, especially his crazy range summon, and deck gunners are super op, one of the unit that carries coast and enables gun builds to trash literally everything. If you don't want price bump on them then they should get the shieldbreaker removed.

    And if you ask me, i discussed those changes with Enticity, the master of Vampire Coast, and he told me he'd still feel comfortable with deck gunners being 800 golds, because that is the price they deserve.
    There are alot of good coast players, and at the current power level many VP units can feel like they could absorb, in isolation, a point increase, because for example bombers are preventing your whole army from being rushed.

    But relative to jezzails, the completely lack of mobility, the 15 vs 75 armour, lower HP, no missile block, much worse melee stats, and lower range far outweigh the greater damage output. This unit is a glass cannon with absolutely no ability to defend itself or reposition. Your experience is based on coast's ability to defend this unit with other OP units, but the unit itself in a normal roster would be very impractical at 800 gold.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,612
    the main problem with Noctilus is the ability to chain 2 summons at once. At any time, 1 summon is enough to deal with for the opponent.

    As for Deck Gunners, they are Unbreakable, can be healed. More importantly, they hide behind an Unbreakable frontline. Either they or the frontline need to become more expensive, the comparison with Jezzails while reasonable also must take account of the respective factions both units come in.
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • Von_CarsteinVon_Carstein Registered Users Posts: 49
    Great post! I'd honestly add some things here and there, maybe it's a bit controversial unlike obviously needed nerfs for Harkon and gunnery mobs
    Nerfs

    1. Rotting Leviathan rocking 150 armour, and, as for me, it's a bit too much - hell, it's second armour value after stank, it's better then dwarf runic armour, anything else - while being, ROTTING. Well, it's not about logic, but also about ways to deal with leviathans+nehek.
    I think that nerf to, at least, 120, which is armour of arachnarok, is absolutely justified. Also -5 speed to be on par with small prometheans.
    2. I'd also add the slight nerf to range of deck gunners.
    3. Replace hornswaggle of Harkon to Taunt

    But I'd also add some buffs, such as
    1. Change the items of mournghul hunter, scarecrow banner and potion are kinda crappy.
    2. Slight, -50 , cut of price for fleet captains, especially if we count all this nerfs. They are bit overpriced as for me. Yes, they are ( at least lore of Vampires) overpriced as part of the money you pay for Harkon, but still. We can also safelly go for +150, not +100 for TG for Harkon, but cut the price of casters. It would also help people to bring deeps\death.
    3. -25 g bloated corpse
    4. Some kind of buff for ror deck droppers( wonder if it's actually needed but let's say it is)
    5. +50\75 + rowdy for Aranessa
    6. Better working throwing abilities for gunnery wight, they are sometimes bugged as well as Huntsmen General Oil flask
  • BjornNorlinderBjornNorlinder Registered Users Posts: 721
    Way way too extreme changes. Certainly not all of them at the same time.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 2,482
    It might be nice if Aranessa got regeneration
  • blindjonnblindjonn Registered Users Posts: 870
    Loupi_ said:

    It might be nice if Aranessa got regeneration

    I'm still all for her getting Rowdy, it's a great ability, really subtle but exceptional in the late game.
  • Von_CarsteinVon_Carstein Registered Users Posts: 49
    edited October 2020
    Loupi_ said:

    It might be nice if Aranessa got regeneration

    She'd need some nerfs then I guess, and regeneration should not be free, she'll be very tanky for her cost if she'll stack regeneration and mannans luck, whick gives 22% wardsave and 24 md , especially knowing that this ability is spammable enough being just 60 sec CD.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,998
    Just rebalance her cost if needed, but regen would make it a lot easier to compete with the other lord options in the roster since she is the only one that cannot be healed in a faction where healing is pretty central...
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 30,654
    edited October 2020
    Loupi_ said:

    It might be nice if Aranessa got regeneration

    Nope, she shouldn't get it.

    If she had it, her legs would have grown back so this would be another change that would miss the point of the character.

    She also doesn't need it for gameplay reasons. There needs to be less healing and regeneration in this game anyway.

  • DaBoyzAreBackInTownDaBoyzAreBackInTown Registered Users Posts: 446
    Pretty much agree, but that is a lot of changes for a single patch.

    Imo the biggest things needing nerfs from your list are:

    - Luthor needs at least +100 on terrorgheist or stats nerf to Death Shriek Terrorgheist (normal one can lose cost). Luthor on foot is not toxic at all, so cutting his ammo would hurt him too much there. The issue is that GooseLuthor should not be the strongest combat lord in the game which he is currently. So would prefer to see Death Shriek Terrorgheist become weaker and cheaper otherwise hit his cost.
    - Pistol summon. This thing is absolutely obscene atm, you do all this positioning and play to shut down their range and then BAM there is a 105 model unit shooting you in the back. Reduce time on summon to normal deckhand and +2WoM.
    - Bombers need at least +100, they are insane atm. But I would prefer they lost a substantial part of their AP. If you want to take down armour you should need guns or handcannons or mournghouls etc. Even expensive bombers that counter all infantry up to 90ish armour is kind of bs.
    - +50 to handguns seems right.

    Not sure about Deck gunners, they go down pretty easy.

    Another change which would be ideal would be for Invocation of Nehek to be changed to something else for Coast. Lore of Deeps should be the primary pick for Coast but it will never be so long as Nehek is around (and pistol mob summon is op). Coast have Ethereals and 150 armour SEM so Nehek will always be incredible and I don't think further nerfs are warranted as it is core to the Counts identity.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 2,482

    Just rebalance her cost if needed, but regen would make it a lot easier to compete with the other lord options in the roster since she is the only one that cannot be healed in a faction where healing is pretty central...

    yep its quite crippling for her. It would of course warrant a price increase, and with big nerfs to nocti and harkon it would be good to give her a little niche.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 30,654
    VCoast should have actually no access at all to any sort of healing.

  • Totentanz777Totentanz777 Registered Users Posts: 383
    Yea I don't know how anyone can defend pistol summons in their current state. They last so damn long and can basically always shoot even if you send a unit to fight them. I don't think Aranessa is necessarily a bad lord but she kind of is when compared to Luther and Noctilus. Bomber and gunner units also need to disintegrate way sooner too. There is no reason that a 10 or 12 model unit of handguns or bombers should still be operational.
  • AmonkhetAmonkhet Registered Users Posts: 4,304
    edited October 2020
    Aranessa is rubbish and is long overdue for buffs. Why would you take her when any melee lord in any other faction is better?

    For Lore of the Deep to survive as the sole Lore they have; Tidecall, Spiteful Shot and Fog of the Damned need some hefty buffs to be worth the WoM to use.

    VCoast should have actually no access at all to any sort of healing.

    Why is that? Theres no lore reason plus their melee units can barely compete at the moment.
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