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Coast nerfs and buffs for next patch

13

Comments

  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 8,051
    Almost none of that was a response to anything I said. And I didn’t disagree with a price nerf for handguns.

    But no the wood elf toolkit is not a good one for beating coast ranged spam with a rush at this time. Their units are pricey, it’s not complicated.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,908
    eumaies said:

    Almost none of that was a response to anything I said. And I didn’t disagree with a price nerf for handguns.

    But no the wood elf toolkit is not a good one for beating coast ranged spam with a rush at this time. Their units are pricey, it’s not complicated.

    the general principle is that ANY rush kit should beat a defensive setup (Dwarves excluded).

    Very often people play hybrid armies but the narrative that WE units are not cost-effective, while it has some merits, is a not relevant to the WE-Coast MU.

    If you pick 12 guns, the only thing you deserve to win against is some weird archer + artillery army, you should lose vs anything else.
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 8,051
    Green0 said:

    eumaies said:

    Almost none of that was a response to anything I said. And I didn’t disagree with a price nerf for handguns.

    But no the wood elf toolkit is not a good one for beating coast ranged spam with a rush at this time. Their units are pricey, it’s not complicated.

    the general principle is that ANY rush kit should beat a defensive setup (Dwarves excluded).

    Very often people play hybrid armies but the narrative that WE units are not cost-effective, while it has some merits, is a not relevant to the WE-Coast MU.

    If you pick 12 guns, the only thing you deserve to win against is some weird archer + artillery army, you should lose vs anything else.
    that's a pretty bold principle that doesn't make any sense to me. If you think there's no tactics, timing, or unit customization that matters to defeating vs losing to a defensive setup then you may want to think about this topic a little more. A simple point is that guns are specifically good vs large targets and not nearly as good vs infantry. A second point is that expensive units are much more vulnerable to ranged spam, where the goal is usually to have a 20 stack and to tie up the many ranged units so that they are inneffective. Finally, in general with defensive builds success or failure will depend on whether the attacker is able to coordinate their attack on their own terms of if they're forced to react to the defender in a way that causes them to be defeated in detail.

    I will say coast is an especially less tactical faction right now. So slow they're almost immobile, bolstered by summons that appear wherever and whenever you want and heals that "reinforce" you without actually having to even move your units. They do have some mobile disruptors and blockers, but it's an especially lopsided faction right now, both in terms of unit selection and the way in which their zombies are overtuned and some of their mobile stuff is undertuned.
    But even vs coast, prior to bombers being OP, there usually was some effort to disrupt the timing of enemy advances with some mobile and hard hitting elements.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,908
    I didn't say defensive setups shouldn't be viable, 12+ ranged spam is how campaign players play the game and should not be viable. I'm willing to make an exception for DW, kinda, since they are a 1 trick pony faction, but in case of Coast it makes no sense for such playstyle to be viable because they don't suffer from the same things Dwarves suffer of.

    Guard mode on Undead guns + a pseudo Unbreakable frontline are main culprits of why you are able to play Coast in MP much like you would play them in Campaign.
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 8,051
    What does the + mean? 12 is the max ranged units anyway. Coast has high mass units, yes, but they also are slower than dwarfs. 12 ranged units shouldn't be OP, period. But when you take it of course it should be viable against some builds like any other build that's heavy in one direction or another.

    undead guns are a bit too cheap but the unbreakable front line isn't the main issue. It's the bombers that can fire at small targets over friendly and enemy units and annihilate them that are removing the natural counter for a 12 ranged build.
  • BastileanBastilean Registered Users Posts: 2,069
    edited October 2020
    Xiphos said:

    Now lets talk about zombie gunnery mobs, deck gunners and deck droppers. So right now all the zombie gunnery mobs feel overtuned for many reasons :
    - very cheap for the damage they dish out
    - very high hp pool
    - 120 models zombies, almost impossible to outshoot or even tie down in melee because of how many they are and that they are zombies with spread formation, they simply don't care if you try to melee them, 80% of the unit will still be able to shoot other units. And being undead, they will keep shooting whatever happens.

    First the gunnery mobs need a change from 120 to 90 models, with an hp nerf and better stats. They will be easier to shoot and when tied down in melee less of them will be able to shoot other units.

    Agreed. Could, increase the handgun damage to the same as Empire gunners (same weapon) and reduce the models to 90. Overall shooting damage about the same (90/120*22/17= ~1), but health and mass goes down by 25%. Empire Hangunners only have 68 models but they have much better calibration. This would be a big improvement, and zombie gunners would still be uniquely good at what zombies do just not quite as good. Keep the same zombie melee stats.

    Generally dedicated missile units are smaller than their melee counter parts. Ex. orc arrer boys, sea guard, etc.

    TWWSTATS
  • AmonkhetAmonkhet Registered Users Posts: 6,928
    edited October 2020
    Green0 said:

    eumaies said:

    Almost none of that was a response to anything I said. And I didn’t disagree with a price nerf for handguns.

    But no the wood elf toolkit is not a good one for beating coast ranged spam with a rush at this time. Their units are pricey, it’s not complicated.

    the general principle is that ANY rush kit should beat a defensive setup (Dwarves excluded).

    Very often people play hybrid armies but the narrative that WE units are not cost-effective, while it has some merits, is a not relevant to the WE-Coast MU.

    If you pick 12 guns, the only thing you deserve to win against is some weird archer + artillery army, you should lose vs anything else.
    You pick twelve guns because melee units are not designed to get you kills as Coast; they just tarpit. If we want to reduce the amount of guns through nerfs, improve melee units then.

    Frankly, Coast probably needs a lord pack to fix itself.
    Albion would make the perfect Total War Warhammer 3 pre-order; with Hengus the Druid and Bran MacKerog as Legendary Lords.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,908
    edited October 2020
    Amonkhet said:

    Green0 said:

    eumaies said:

    Almost none of that was a response to anything I said. And I didn’t disagree with a price nerf for handguns.

    But no the wood elf toolkit is not a good one for beating coast ranged spam with a rush at this time. Their units are pricey, it’s not complicated.

    the general principle is that ANY rush kit should beat a defensive setup (Dwarves excluded).

    Very often people play hybrid armies but the narrative that WE units are not cost-effective, while it has some merits, is a not relevant to the WE-Coast MU.

    If you pick 12 guns, the only thing you deserve to win against is some weird archer + artillery army, you should lose vs anything else.
    You pick twelve guns because melee units are not designed to get you kills as Coast; they just tarpit. If we want to reduce the amount of guns through nerfs, improve melee units then.

    Frankly, Coast probably needs a lord pack to fix itself.
    Mournghouls + Zombies at the bottom beat most infantry rushes that you will see against VP in this game. Let's be honest, not like you'll ever see 3x Swordmaster or 4x Greatsword, if you do those 550g guns trade WAY up vs such units, pistol characters also.

    Of course such a strategy is not as OP as spamming 12 guns hence utilized less.

    I'm not against buffing bad Coast units but you also gotta realize that already now melee builds with Coast are viable. Necrofexi, Syreens, Mournghouls are all viable units.

    The Rotting Leviathan is an extremely competitive e SEM and the only one that was untouched by the latest patch of armor nerfs that hit Arachnaroks. It also has access to the strongest healing in the game which is capable of heal capping 2x Rotting Leviathans, effectively bringing the amount of HP you bring to the field to some 22000 @150 armor and ~45/45 stats with a Bvi.

    The RoR Necrofex is amazing at deleting any infantry spam that might give you trouble, from Grave Guard to Swordmasters and to top it off it's quite a strong melee combatant capable of going toe to toe with Dragons, Terrorgheists & similar.

    I'm sorry, but the narrative that Coast is a weak melee faction is simply not true. What you should rather write is that Coast has a few weak units, that are rarely-to-never used, just like other subpar units from other factions are also not used and hence don't determine where the bar is set for the performance of a faction, because that's typically judged by their strongest units and not by the weakest ones.

    12+ ranged should be something viable ONLY in campaign where AI won't force path through your 3 blocker units designed to distract it, the fact that such playstyle is viable in MP is... cringe.

    Also you make it sound like Coast would be a terrible faction after nerfs, which is not the case, Coast has been the strongest faction in the game ever since the release of their DLC with only 1 patch where they were slightly suboptimal (read: upper mid tier). Nerfs are long overdue and Voast is in need of NET nerfs, the power level must go down regardless of what happens to the weaker units Coast as a faction will feel weaker.
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • AmonkhetAmonkhet Registered Users Posts: 6,928
    edited October 2020
    Green0 said:

    Amonkhet said:

    Green0 said:

    eumaies said:

    Almost none of that was a response to anything I said. And I didn’t disagree with a price nerf for handguns.

    But no the wood elf toolkit is not a good one for beating coast ranged spam with a rush at this time. Their units are pricey, it’s not complicated.

    the general principle is that ANY rush kit should beat a defensive setup (Dwarves excluded).

    Very often people play hybrid armies but the narrative that WE units are not cost-effective, while it has some merits, is a not relevant to the WE-Coast MU.

    If you pick 12 guns, the only thing you deserve to win against is some weird archer + artillery army, you should lose vs anything else.
    You pick twelve guns because melee units are not designed to get you kills as Coast; they just tarpit. If we want to reduce the amount of guns through nerfs, improve melee units then.

    Frankly, Coast probably needs a lord pack to fix itself.
    Mournghouls + Zombies at the bottom beat most infantry rushes that you will see against VP in this game. Let's be honest, not like you'll ever see 3x Swordmaster or 4x Greatsword, if you do those 550g guns trade WAY up vs such units, pistol characters also.

    Of course such a strategy is not as OP as spamming 12 guns hence utilized less.

    I'm not against buffing bad Coast units but you also gotta realize that already now melee builds with Coast are viable. Necrofexi, Syreens, Mournghouls are all viable units.

    The Rotting Leviathan is an extremely competitive e SEM and the only one that was untouched by the latest patch of armor nerfs that hit Arachnaroks. It also has access to the strongest healing in the game which is capable of heal capping 2x Rotting Leviathans, effectively bringing the amount of HP you bring to the field to some 22000 @150 armor and ~45/45 stats with a Bvi.

    The RoR Necrofex is amazing at deleting any infantry spam that might give you trouble, from Grave Guard to Swordmasters and to top it off it's quite a strong melee combatant capable of going toe to toe with Dragons, Terrorgheists & similar.

    I'm sorry, but the narrative that Coast is a weak melee faction is simply not true. What you should rather write is that Coast has a few weak units, that are rarely-to-never used, just like other subpar units from other factions are also not used and hence don't determine where the bar is set for the performance of a faction, because that's typically judged by their strongest units and not by the weakest ones.

    12+ ranged should be something viable ONLY in campaign where AI won't force path through your 3 blocker units designed to distract it, the fact that such playstyle is viable in MP is... cringe.

    Also you make it sound like Coast would be a terrible faction after nerfs, which is not the case, Coast has been the strongest faction in the game ever since the release of their DLC with only 1 patch where they were slightly suboptimal (read: upper mid tier). Nerfs are long overdue and Voast is in need of NET nerfs, the power level must go down regardless of what happens to the weaker units Coast as a faction will feel weaker.
    What example of high level play showed a fully melee-focused Vampire Coast build working?

    Mournghouls + Zombies against any Elf? Lol. The Leviathan's a good tank; most of their melee is good...defensively. Syreens melt to any magic, Mournghouls deal good damage but melt, Zombies tarpit good; but any melee standard infantry hits harder in any other faction.

    Why would you use your Necrofex in melee combat? Its best kept at range.

    All of Coast's offensive potential is in its artillery and ranged fire and all its defensive potential is in its melee troops. If you nerf significantly the gunnery units your gonna end up with a faction that will be consistently run over with melee infantry and be unable to contest it. Its not a faction your supposed to take 3-4 range infantry and 1-2 artillery.

    If your going to turn them into a pseudo-Empire faction, they need to be given Empire-like melee troops; thats all.
    Albion would make the perfect Total War Warhammer 3 pre-order; with Hengus the Druid and Bran MacKerog as Legendary Lords.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,908
    Amonkhet said:

    Green0 said:

    Amonkhet said:

    Green0 said:

    eumaies said:

    Almost none of that was a response to anything I said. And I didn’t disagree with a price nerf for handguns.

    But no the wood elf toolkit is not a good one for beating coast ranged spam with a rush at this time. Their units are pricey, it’s not complicated.

    the general principle is that ANY rush kit should beat a defensive setup (Dwarves excluded).

    Very often people play hybrid armies but the narrative that WE units are not cost-effective, while it has some merits, is a not relevant to the WE-Coast MU.

    If you pick 12 guns, the only thing you deserve to win against is some weird archer + artillery army, you should lose vs anything else.
    You pick twelve guns because melee units are not designed to get you kills as Coast; they just tarpit. If we want to reduce the amount of guns through nerfs, improve melee units then.

    Frankly, Coast probably needs a lord pack to fix itself.
    Mournghouls + Zombies at the bottom beat most infantry rushes that you will see against VP in this game. Let's be honest, not like you'll ever see 3x Swordmaster or 4x Greatsword, if you do those 550g guns trade WAY up vs such units, pistol characters also.

    Of course such a strategy is not as OP as spamming 12 guns hence utilized less.

    I'm not against buffing bad Coast units but you also gotta realize that already now melee builds with Coast are viable. Necrofexi, Syreens, Mournghouls are all viable units.

    The Rotting Leviathan is an extremely competitive e SEM and the only one that was untouched by the latest patch of armor nerfs that hit Arachnaroks. It also has access to the strongest healing in the game which is capable of heal capping 2x Rotting Leviathans, effectively bringing the amount of HP you bring to the field to some 22000 @150 armor and ~45/45 stats with a Bvi.

    The RoR Necrofex is amazing at deleting any infantry spam that might give you trouble, from Grave Guard to Swordmasters and to top it off it's quite a strong melee combatant capable of going toe to toe with Dragons, Terrorgheists & similar.

    I'm sorry, but the narrative that Coast is a weak melee faction is simply not true. What you should rather write is that Coast has a few weak units, that are rarely-to-never used, just like other subpar units from other factions are also not used and hence don't determine where the bar is set for the performance of a faction, because that's typically judged by their strongest units and not by the weakest ones.

    12+ ranged should be something viable ONLY in campaign where AI won't force path through your 3 blocker units designed to distract it, the fact that such playstyle is viable in MP is... cringe.

    Also you make it sound like Coast would be a terrible faction after nerfs, which is not the case, Coast has been the strongest faction in the game ever since the release of their DLC with only 1 patch where they were slightly suboptimal (read: upper mid tier). Nerfs are long overdue and Voast is in need of NET nerfs, the power level must go down regardless of what happens to the weaker units Coast as a faction will feel weaker.
    What example of high level play showed a fully melee-focused Vampire Coast build working?

    Mournghouls + Zombies against any Elf? Lol. The Leviathan's a good tank; most of their melee is good...defensively. Syreens melt to any magic, Mournghouls deal good damage but melt, Zombies tarpit good; but any melee standard infantry hits harder in any other faction.

    Why would you use your Necrofex in melee combat? Its best kept at range.

    All of Coast's offensive potential is in its artillery and ranged fire and all its defensive potential is in its melee troops. If you nerf significantly the gunnery units your gonna end up with a faction that will be consistently run over with melee infantry and be unable to contest it. Its not a faction your supposed to take 3-4 range infantry and 1-2 artillery.

    If your going to turn them into a pseudo-Empire faction, they need to be given Empire-like melee troops; thats all.
    all of what you wrote is pretty much your opinion and not even remotely close to how Coast works. For example, Mournghouls doesn't really matter if they take tons of damage as long as they win.

    Coast rushes are very successful when used well; of course, it's not a foolproof strategy.

    I could post many games of where Coast eon by rushing or using 2x crab (which btw are definitely not "just tanks"), but I have the impression it will be a worthless endeavor since we will engage in finding subtleties of why Coast won in a "no true Scotsman" fashion. So I won't bother.

    Coast nerfs are coming whether you like it or not. People are tired and the faction is bonkers. If it will get overnerfed, which I doubt since its power is very high atm... I guess you will learn for one or few patches how everyone else had it. Sorry if your favorite faction will not be viable (which again, I doubt will happen anyway since in my view for example the 550g gunners could well become 700g to account for Guard mode exploit and nearly double the HP of every other basic archer in the game and I don't think that's happening sadly).
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • mightygloinmightygloin Karaz-a-KarakRegistered Users Posts: 4,705


    1. Rotting Leviathan rocking 150 armour, and, as for me, it's a bit too much - hell, it's second armour value after stank, it's better then dwarf runic armour, anything else - while being, ROTTING.

    Wonder how much armor this thing would have if it was living and not rotting. Good thing it's not in the game.
  • AmonkhetAmonkhet Registered Users Posts: 6,928
    Green0 said:

    Amonkhet said:

    Green0 said:

    Amonkhet said:

    Green0 said:

    eumaies said:

    Almost none of that was a response to anything I said. And I didn’t disagree with a price nerf for handguns.

    But no the wood elf toolkit is not a good one for beating coast ranged spam with a rush at this time. Their units are pricey, it’s not complicated.

    the general principle is that ANY rush kit should beat a defensive setup (Dwarves excluded).

    Very often people play hybrid armies but the narrative that WE units are not cost-effective, while it has some merits, is a not relevant to the WE-Coast MU.

    If you pick 12 guns, the only thing you deserve to win against is some weird archer + artillery army, you should lose vs anything else.
    You pick twelve guns because melee units are not designed to get you kills as Coast; they just tarpit. If we want to reduce the amount of guns through nerfs, improve melee units then.

    Frankly, Coast probably needs a lord pack to fix itself.
    Mournghouls + Zombies at the bottom beat most infantry rushes that you will see against VP in this game. Let's be honest, not like you'll ever see 3x Swordmaster or 4x Greatsword, if you do those 550g guns trade WAY up vs such units, pistol characters also.

    Of course such a strategy is not as OP as spamming 12 guns hence utilized less.

    I'm not against buffing bad Coast units but you also gotta realize that already now melee builds with Coast are viable. Necrofexi, Syreens, Mournghouls are all viable units.

    The Rotting Leviathan is an extremely competitive e SEM and the only one that was untouched by the latest patch of armor nerfs that hit Arachnaroks. It also has access to the strongest healing in the game which is capable of heal capping 2x Rotting Leviathans, effectively bringing the amount of HP you bring to the field to some 22000 @150 armor and ~45/45 stats with a Bvi.

    The RoR Necrofex is amazing at deleting any infantry spam that might give you trouble, from Grave Guard to Swordmasters and to top it off it's quite a strong melee combatant capable of going toe to toe with Dragons, Terrorgheists & similar.

    I'm sorry, but the narrative that Coast is a weak melee faction is simply not true. What you should rather write is that Coast has a few weak units, that are rarely-to-never used, just like other subpar units from other factions are also not used and hence don't determine where the bar is set for the performance of a faction, because that's typically judged by their strongest units and not by the weakest ones.

    12+ ranged should be something viable ONLY in campaign where AI won't force path through your 3 blocker units designed to distract it, the fact that such playstyle is viable in MP is... cringe.

    Also you make it sound like Coast would be a terrible faction after nerfs, which is not the case, Coast has been the strongest faction in the game ever since the release of their DLC with only 1 patch where they were slightly suboptimal (read: upper mid tier). Nerfs are long overdue and Voast is in need of NET nerfs, the power level must go down regardless of what happens to the weaker units Coast as a faction will feel weaker.
    What example of high level play showed a fully melee-focused Vampire Coast build working?

    Mournghouls + Zombies against any Elf? Lol. The Leviathan's a good tank; most of their melee is good...defensively. Syreens melt to any magic, Mournghouls deal good damage but melt, Zombies tarpit good; but any melee standard infantry hits harder in any other faction.

    Why would you use your Necrofex in melee combat? Its best kept at range.

    All of Coast's offensive potential is in its artillery and ranged fire and all its defensive potential is in its melee troops. If you nerf significantly the gunnery units your gonna end up with a faction that will be consistently run over with melee infantry and be unable to contest it. Its not a faction your supposed to take 3-4 range infantry and 1-2 artillery.

    If your going to turn them into a pseudo-Empire faction, they need to be given Empire-like melee troops; thats all.
    all of what you wrote is pretty much your opinion and not even remotely close to how Coast works. For example, Mournghouls doesn't really matter if they take tons of damage as long as they win.

    Coast rushes are very successful when used well; of course, it's not a foolproof strategy.

    I could post many games of where Coast eon by rushing or using 2x crab (which btw are definitely not "just tanks"), but I have the impression it will be a worthless endeavor since we will engage in finding subtleties of why Coast won in a "no true Scotsman" fashion. So I won't bother.

    Coast nerfs are coming whether you like it or not. People are tired and the faction is bonkers. If it will get overnerfed, which I doubt since its power is very high atm... I guess you will learn for one or few patches how everyone else had it. Sorry if your favorite faction will not be viable (which again, I doubt will happen anyway since in my view for example the 550g gunners could well become 700g to account for Guard mode exploit and nearly double the HP of every other basic archer in the game and I don't think that's happening sadly).
    I'm not too concerned cause I know its going to be the Elvish factions that will be hit a lot harder anyway.
    Albion would make the perfect Total War Warhammer 3 pre-order; with Hengus the Druid and Bran MacKerog as Legendary Lords.
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 2,614
    This utterly **** of a faction was op for nearly 2 years now. I don't care if they get reduced to meme bottom feeder Z tier. Maybe then they see hoe it was to play something like bretonnia past these 2 years.
  • AmonkhetAmonkhet Registered Users Posts: 6,928
    Thats more cause GW didnt do anything for Bretonnia.
    Albion would make the perfect Total War Warhammer 3 pre-order; with Hengus the Druid and Bran MacKerog as Legendary Lords.
  • mightygloinmightygloin Karaz-a-KarakRegistered Users Posts: 4,705
    It's a fortunate thing Bretonnia is even in the game lol
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 9,288
    Lol is this some kind of joke thread or something, wont surprise me if this comes from some raging elf lol

    Harkon

    Glade running around with 30 ammo of 190m, homing, magic, and somehow some genius wants a 90m, mind u LESS THAN HALF the range to have equal ammo. Princess alone is running with 40.

    Noctilus
    This one is just outright silly. This guy pays $300 for mage tax, far greater than ANY CHARACTER in game and ppl wants him to be $1450 base lol... as for the range, yea no. Even allarials star sitting at 200m. What should be done tho, is him getting 200m back since thats been heavily overnerfed.

    - Overcast Drawned Dead --> +3WOM, or simply remove the overcast
    So much whinging for a $300 unit, cant even be bothered with this one tbh, swap pistol to polearm, easy change to stop the whinging

    Zomb guns

    Again, one of the most misleading and intentional spreading misinformation on this one.
    Emp gun has 1.8 spread
    Dwf gun has 1.65 spread
    Zomb gun has *drumrolls******* 3.5 spread.
    Unless someone skipped school, thats about double the spread and missing gun shots. Then comes the SLOWER reload speed, SLOWER turn speed, obviously omitted due to extreme bias presumably. Pretty much near 45% slower on emp gun speed alone, completely ignoring the MUCH SLOWER TURN SPEED.

    Not to mention zombies do 17 dmg per shot, where as dwf and emp gun do 22 dmg per shot. A shocking near 30% MORE DMG.


    400g bombers will deal half hp on any infantry with just 1 volley
    - bombers --> +50 golds


    Pretty sure CA is just gonna tweak it by -1s reload or a victim nerf of $25. Highly doubt CA will fail on this one when they r doing exactly the same as miner without vanguard, ap, armor, and basically the stats. These guys cant even kill a $100 slaves or peasants, with melee value less than $75, while miners can fight up to $300. It will be hilarious if they do less dmg than miners
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  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 9,288
    edited October 2020
    Lots of funny comments about guns and bombers here.

    NOT A SINGLE faction in game with the equal $ will EVER lose to them.

    Take ur pick of 12, zomb pole, deckhand, guns, bombs, any combination of 12. ZERO faction in game will EVER struggle against that. Its extremely hilarious any1 thinks 4 bombs 4 guns 4 halberd will stand any chance vs 4 swordsman 4 archers 4 xbows

    Which *drumrolls* r much cheaper than the undead counterpart. Now bombers gonna get tweak which is pretty much a fact, ppl expecting some crazy changes would be dreaming. Its basically a miner with no armor, no melee stats thats doing the same exploding dmg. Literally $400 purely on missile aspect. Get ready for a +1s reload or $25, but of coz CA can give them the salamander treatment that removes them from the game if they so wish it.

    It will just be a matter of time when voast gets their dlc lol and the further thats gonna be, the more eternal thats gonna last in the game.
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    Top #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
  • Totentanz777Totentanz777 Registered Users Posts: 566
    @yst

    Zombo handgunners do not break. The faction as a whole doesn't need to move around if you position yourself correctly. When a gun unit gets compromised it takes 10 years to kill them and you can just blast apart whatever is attacking them in the meantime.

    Then using whataboutism to bring up the glady for some reason. Easily the strongest lord on a faction that isn't balanced(Waywatchers are OP but the faction currently needs them to be). They will get tons of new stuff soon enough though. Also Noctilus has a magic bombardment spell just like the glady.

    The problem with the coast is they are far too forgiving to mistakes. When non-undead get compromised they will break and run away. VC units have no ranged, so it is ok for units like graveguard to fight and have tons of healing. Any other hound unit except for VC(again, melee only) will break after being hit with a strong breeze. But VP hounds can easily detach and run away if you make a mistake and they are compromised. That being said I don't think hounds are their problem.
  • UberReptilianUberReptilian The Crystal LabyrinthRegistered Users Posts: 4,726
    Has the “1v1 me bro” match happened yet?
    Not really understanding what it’ll accomplish since I doubt either party is likely to change their mind, especially when it involves conceding to the other person when they clearly hate each other.

    Regardless I want it to happen just to see the aftermath here. Seems like it’d be fun.

    As for the whole V Coast will be bad after nerfs I say Lmao. Going from OP best race in the game for 2 years to say Empire or DE tier, not only do I find highly unlikely, but even if they did, at this point it’s been long justified. I can’t feel bad for the faction that in terms of nerfs has been handled with kid gloves for 2 years.
    The real crime is that I doubt we’ll see such major nerfs or buffs come WE DLC time so V Coast will remain king but bombers will not be as autopick. Yay :cry:.
    Brilliant Madwoman I am.
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  • Totentanz777Totentanz777 Registered Users Posts: 566
    The only way to know for sure: 1 unit zombies v 1 unit handgunners, Rust, quickscopes only. Plz report back.
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 2,614
    They need to be cut down to 90 models their calibration distance does not really matter if you have 120 models shooting with extra powder. And the fact that they have so much models and HP and cannot rout only means that instead of investing in means of protecting your shooting you can just buy more shooting put them in checker board formation and watch your enemies evaporate. Such a cool and skillful way to play.
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 4,713
    yst said:

    Lol is this some kind of joke thread or something, wont surprise me if this comes from some raging elf lol

    Harkon

    Glade running around with 30 ammo of 190m, homing, magic, and somehow some genius wants a 90m, mind u LESS THAN HALF the range to have equal ammo. Princess alone is running with 40.

    Noctilus
    This one is just outright silly. This guy pays $300 for mage tax, far greater than ANY CHARACTER in game and ppl wants him to be $1450 base lol... as for the range, yea no. Even allarials star sitting at 200m. What should be done tho, is him getting 200m back since thats been heavily overnerfed.

    - Overcast Drawned Dead --> +3WOM, or simply remove the overcast
    So much whinging for a $300 unit, cant even be bothered with this one tbh, swap pistol to polearm, easy change to stop the whinging

    Zomb guns

    Again, one of the most misleading and intentional spreading misinformation on this one.
    Emp gun has 1.8 spread
    Dwf gun has 1.65 spread
    Zomb gun has *drumrolls******* 3.5 spread.
    Unless someone skipped school, thats about double the spread and missing gun shots. Then comes the SLOWER reload speed, SLOWER turn speed, obviously omitted due to extreme bias presumably. Pretty much near 45% slower on emp gun speed alone, completely ignoring the MUCH SLOWER TURN SPEED.

    Not to mention zombies do 17 dmg per shot, where as dwf and emp gun do 22 dmg per shot. A shocking near 30% MORE DMG.


    400g bombers will deal half hp on any infantry with just 1 volley
    - bombers --> +50 golds


    Pretty sure CA is just gonna tweak it by -1s reload or a victim nerf of $25. Highly doubt CA will fail on this one when they r doing exactly the same as miner without vanguard, ap, armor, and basically the stats. These guys cant even kill a $100 slaves or peasants, with melee value less than $75, while miners can fight up to $300. It will be hilarious if they do less dmg than miners

    Man, you are the king of demagogy.

    - harkons shots are ap, and are shot twice as fast or more than Gladys, that deals an amazing... 80 ap per shot every 7.3 seconds, while he does 240. Plus, the obvious: he is a freaking melee character with melee stats.

    - Noctilus does pay a lot for mage tax. About. 200, not 300. And that is more than compensated with his kit.

    - so, the "super inaccurate" zombie handgunners have about the same spread than waywatchers? And better than almost any other archer unit in the game! Yeah, they sure suffer a lot. Poor guys. They are also 50 cheaper than empire's, so give them a couple chevrons and problem solved.

    - exactly exactly the same. Yeah, except 5 times the ammo, and 120 models.


  • hanenhanen Registered Users Posts: 639
    edited October 2020
    I agree with most changes posted by the OP. Nerf range and buff melee should be the overall plan.

    I would like to add some more buffs to the list.

    1. Vampire heroes could use a 50g cost reduction. I dont think they should cost more than their VC brethren.

    2. Bloated corpse -75 gold. Such unique design and I would love to see more of them.

    3. Queen Bess -100 gold. Its easy to snipe and, usually, need a lot of time to get value.
    Post edited by hanen on
  • SarmatiannsSarmatianns Registered Users Posts: 4,644
    Remove Vampires from the game. Problem solved.

    Nobody likes vampires anyway :)
  • WarpDriverWarpDriver Registered Users Posts: 67
    Ranged bats should stay useful, they're real fun and tactical to use.

    I'm sure CA won't severely overnerf Coast, VP have an unusual, interesting, wide and varied roster of fantastic looking units that you often need to combine to make work, I'm sure they can be all be made more viable and fair.

    Personally I find the gun theme excellent, any tone downs in this area can be met with improved close combat, this'll strengthen a wider range of playstyles :smile:

    And for those who are jumping in against VP all the time, try playing VP and realise spears destroy all VP's large and typically slow targets, going wide destroys chaff, most arty easily wins vs VP arty, and dwarf wins 9 times out of ten or more.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 9,288
    Pocman said:


    - so, the "super inaccurate" zombie handgunners have about the same spread than waywatchers? And better than almost any other archer unit in the game! Yeah, they sure suffer a lot. Poor guys. They are also 50 cheaper than empire's, so give them a couple chevrons and problem solved.

    - exactly exactly the same. Yeah, except 5 times the ammo, and 120 models.


    Losing 156 dmg trading for 36 ap. Lol thats one hella ap trade everyone wants.
    One mother of a facepalm this one. Literally anything at 100 armor would be taking more dmg. But ya lets just forget about 190m vs 90m as well.

    Lets not lie on noct got stupidly overtaxed on mage price.

    He costs $450 MORE than halberd admiral. And these elven balancers whinge about eltharion that pays prolly at this stage $0 mage tax after the underserved cut last patch. Then again lets just say he pays $50 to keep the elven plebs from revolting.

    The handgun ones r pretty much complete irrelevant.
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  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 2,320
    edited October 2020
    Pocman said:


    - harkons shots are ap, and are shot twice as fast or more than Gladys, that deals an amazing... 80 ap per shot every 7.3 seconds, while he does 240. Plus, the obvious: he is a freaking melee character with melee stats.

    Her nonAP damage is quite significant to ignore plus it is magic attacks. And 190 range + homing shots are pain, Luthor at least can miss. I actually dislike both. Both are toxic. Both use BS tactics(like killing Skaven cannons with Kurnos and snipe Lord with homing shots from 190 range while net+breath rat ogres, not that different from Nocti playstyle). One has regen other has net. Plus Kurnos vs debuff. And Glady stats(main difference are vs enemy that has magic attacks, cause Forest dragon relies on Phys resist) are not that different to Harkon if you mount her on dragon(and yeah net+breath sweet combo). Luthor is better in a head-on fight, due to debuff, while Glady has better breath and range let her do snipe out of safe distance and she is cheaper. I would have slapped both with nerfs to be fair.
    Post edited by tank3487 on
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 32,630
    They could give VCoast gunners the same vertical calibration cone as the Ratling Guns, when those fire at max range, about two thirds of the shots will fly off into the stratosphere.

  • dge1dge1 Moderator Arkansas, USARegistered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 21,961
    Off topic and side conversations posts/comments removed.
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  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 4,713
    yst said:

    Pocman said:


    - so, the "super inaccurate" zombie handgunners have about the same spread than waywatchers? And better than almost any other archer unit in the game! Yeah, they sure suffer a lot. Poor guys. They are also 50 cheaper than empire's, so give them a couple chevrons and problem solved.

    - exactly exactly the same. Yeah, except 5 times the ammo, and 120 models.


    Losing 156 dmg trading for 36 ap. Lol thats one hella ap trade everyone wants.
    One mother of a facepalm this one. Literally anything at 100 armor would be taking more dmg. But ya lets just forget about 190m vs 90m as well.

    Lets not lie on noct got stupidly overtaxed on mage price.

    He costs $450 MORE than halberd admiral. And these elven balancers whinge about eltharion that pays prolly at this stage $0 mage tax after the underserved cut last patch. Then again lets just say he pays $50 to keep the elven plebs from revolting.

    The handgun ones r pretty much complete irrelevant.
    Except, again, he shots two shots for each one Glady shots:

    Glady deals:

    196 damage + 84 AP= 280

    Luthor Harkon deals:

    40x2+120x2= 360.

    So Luthor deals more damage to unarmored targets and much more to anything armored.

    Regarding range, you are ignoring the obvious: Luthor is a melee character. On foot, he has more HP, armor, and a whooping extra 120 WS, of which 70 is extra AP. (Glady's WS is closer to a mage lord than to a melee lord). Plus his on contact effect. All that, just for an extra 50 gold than glady. And you are still crying about range.

    The problem is that you know all that perfectly well without needing to be told.
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